Does 14 Promote a Culture of Mediocrity?

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

As the title ask, does 14 create and promote a culture of mediocrity within it? I say it has been sliding that way since ShB. The healing and tanking roles have been reduced to dull, hollow shells of what they were in HW and SB. The skill celling and floor no longer exist for these roles. DPS roles are heading in this direction as well with all the flavor and mechanical complexity being slowly striped away. See the removal of synergy and reduction of positionals, and reduction of punishment for rotational screw ups. These issues, however, are nothing compared to how the community and general attitude have shifted toward shielding the bad from valid criticism, and a general apathy towards self improvement. Even the devs have admitted to designing content in this manner. It's all quite disheartening, given 14 was at in time one of the most mechanically engaging MMOs.

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I think the lack of difficulty is better for a lot of people, you included.

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

snip.

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No my main point was that you just need to be proactive in your approach and that the moment you set the expectancy of the results to be immediate then you have already lost. If you expect all subsequent runs or attempts to be fine then you berate or get angry as a result of this then I'm very sorry but the only way a rational individual is able to see this is that you're going to be interpreted in a not-so-noble light. As for the second part I don't necessarily dispute it, however, in the vast majority of those cases there is a mutual expectancy or similar level of skill where people are learning from each other. As the disparity in that gap grows so does the willingness to actually teach, especially if you aren't already in there with the expectancy you're going to teach. - If you go into a learning party as an adept and experienced individual then some form of implied expectancy is there that you'll be teaching. - Comparatively, if you're going into a clear party, a specific phase-practice party or heaven forbid even a roulette party then there's less of an inclination to 'teach' and more often than not in these latter cases it is done so in an unsolicited fashion with the only concern to speed up the roulette which won't necessarily happen.

To summarise that last point. There's a very big difference in going into an encounter or a piece of content where mutual learning is the intention is entirely different from casually taking a stroll into a piece of content where that implication isn't necessarily expected. In case it was lost on you; this was my point all along. If you're going to teach, commit to it and only do so when you went into the group with the intention of doing so or where said teaching is solicited. If it is not solicited or if you didn't go into the content with the expectation then don't bother at all because ultimately you're giving unsolicited advice in order to benefit your run, which as per the previous argument isn't always going to be an immediate outcome.

Yes my second point focused on how it works because all of those are still embedded even in informal teaching, so if you want to go ahead and undermine it on the premise then it's bordering comedic for me. So let me try this using another approach:

If you explain a mechanic to a person several times and they still fail to understand the mechanic then the probability is; how you're presenting them with that information likely isn't going to work - Yet some people, or many actually will leap to the conclusion that their approach was infallible and thus the only logical conclusion is that they're utterly inept. Try restructuring your advice, or better yet create a little GIF or even go on MS paint and attempt to illustrate the mechanic visually as opposed to writing a wall of descriptive text, upload it to imgur and paste it in the chat. This still underpins how effectively you communicate whether that be in a formal teaching setting or whether you're just teaching someone a mechanic over Discord.

You absolutely don't need a college diploma, no. But if you want to actually be effective in your practice then I would expect you to come at me with something a little better than "It's ez, anyone can do it" - All this is doing is setting the tone that you're stagnating. - Let me be clear here and summarise all of this as simply as possible; If you can't adequately communicate your information then regardless of how much information you have it is going to be a completely pointless because all of it will be lost on the recipient. Regardless of whether you're communicate the Pythagorean theorem, or whether you're teaching Fundamental Synergy, the same still applies. If you can't communicate it? Meaningless. This is why bad teachers exist and this is also why bad guides exist - Because they fail to convey the information properly.

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Originally Posted by Sacred-Oblivion

The latter group has a lower skill level but that does not make them "bad"

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Oxymoron.

Agree with OP. Game's too easy now, enemies in 99% of content hit like wet noodles, and classes are so braindead a monkey could play most of them.

It's a shame but what can you do?

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Oxymoron.

Agree with OP. Game's too easy now, enemies in 99% of content hit like wet noodles, and classes are so braindead a monkey could play most of them.

It's a shame but what can you do?

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People complain about how easy this game is, but I'd love to see the statistics on how many of these people either copied a rotation from someone else that more than likely used a program to "optimize" or sat down and nailed down a rotation without using any analyzing software/parser.

What I'm saying is, if you find the game too easy, you kind of invited that upon yourself by using tools to do all the thinking for you.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

This is not one of those tit-for-tat scenarios, just subtract or eject yourself from the environment. - Many people have this bizarre notion that they must make some snarky comment before ejecting.

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which is what I do, nowadays - the bolded part, that is

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Personally, if I were to be frank but this does come from the same place that is under the impression that presenting some feedback or a criticism could, or would result in a nice 1:1 with a GM upon the next login, so I can't really give much benefit of the doubt that people are 'presenting some constructive feedback in a civil fashion'.

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I mean, if I could show you that, aside from once*, I've never given advice from an annoyed or upset/angry angle, I'd be very glad to show you that it's genuinely from me trying to help people and not because they don't play to 'my standards'
I know it's most likely hard to believe, considering how often I vent about topics like these on the forums, but it is what it is and I'm doing it from the position as a player that was once in the same shoes as those players

*which was also my first post on the forums, "funnily" enough, and if you'll look it up I think you'll understand why I was annoyed and how the post I responded to lied about what happened to appear as a good person
still the sole time I've been kicked, too, by a mentor and their cure 1 only healer friend, lmao

Not a toxic being but just stating fact,

It is always a joke to see some people complaining about the game difficulty when they only play 30% of the endgame content or worse, kill week 40 with echo.

It is like me complaining about how crafter rotation is too easy when i barely reached lvl 40 with my highest lvled crafting job.

improve your ingame experience before claiming something is easy, otherwise, you just look like pathetic troll.

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Originally Posted by Alzinor

Not a toxic being but just stating fact,

It is always a joke to see some people complaining about the game difficulty when they only play 30% of the endgame content or worse, kill week 40 with echo.

It is like me complaining about how crafter rotation is too easy when i barely reached lvl 40 with my highest lvled crafting job.

improve your ingame experience before claiming something is easy, otherwise, you just look like pathetic troll.

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this homie clears

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Originally Posted by Alzinor

Not a toxic being but just stating fact,

It is always a joke to see some people complaining about the game difficulty when they only play 30% of the endgame content or worse, kill week 40 with echo.

It is like me complaining about how crafter rotation is too easy when i barely reached lvl 40 with my highest lvled crafting job.

improve your in-game experience before claiming something is easy, otherwise, you just look like pathetic troll.

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It's funny, isn't it. You'll always find it's mostly middling players who become really fixated on hierarchy. It's like when someone who just made a bit of money desperately tries to emulate what they think a 'rich person' is.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

It's funny, isn't it. You'll always find it's mostly middling players who become really fixated on hierarchy. It's like when someone who just made a bit of money desperately tries to emulate what they think a 'rich person' is.

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Not to contribute to the 1000th iteration of this thread any further, but this makes a lot of sense.

I think of myself as mediocre/middle of the pack. I can clear the fights, but don't usually see purple+ parses until I've got at least 5-6 clears under my belt. This is the great meeting place in PF (and really true for all games) for all kinds of people, and I see more bad and stellar players rubbing shoulders than, say, back when I played super high end in other games. It's just accessible content, and with accessibility comes.. access. You never know what you're going to get, and I think that actually makes the system better overall.

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Originally Posted by Alzinor

Not a toxic being but just stating fact,

It is always a joke to see some people complaining about the game difficulty when they only play 30% of the endgame content or worse, kill week 40 with echo.

It is like me complaining about how crafter rotation is too easy when i barely reached lvl 40 with my highest lvled crafting job.

improve your ingame experience before claiming something is easy, otherwise, you just look like pathetic troll.

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I mean where in my post did I bemoan the state of savage? It's actually one of the areas the game has done well since HW. Just wish there was more of it. My post was more on the state of job and role design and content that is not savage and the frustration it can bring. Savage by its nature tends to filter out the less able, and more often than not, the lazy.

The best way to teach is to say nothing at all. If you're not a personal friend of mine or someone that is actively trying to learn, why should I give a damn whether you're struggling with a class or not? And if you find yourself in a duty struggling to avoid aoes and find safe spots, maybe I'll put a little blue dorito over my head and be a guide. Nothing more, nothing less. I've had a few too many incidents where I tried to reach out and give basic advice like "please use aoes for 3 or more enemies" or "better to use cure 2 instead of relying on freecure" only to be met with "I know how to play x" or "You do your job, I'll do mine". I have yet to get a "You don't pay my sub" though somehow. And though it feels good to actually get through to someone and get a "hey thanks for the advice" every once in a while, it's just not worth the headache anymore.

And before anyone even thinks of saying stuff like "Maybe it's just your tone" or "Perhaps you sound too passive-aggressive", stop. Just stop. I police myself enough as is before even considering whether or not I should speak up and offer advice to anyone, even if it's clear that they desperately need it. It is so exhausting having to word any advice I give as carefully as possible knowing full well that it could still be rejected wholesale and thrown back in my face. Even moreso when other members in a party might decide to jump to their defense and possibly dog pile and/or kick me from the party for even having the audacity to not keep my trap shut.

So I just don't offer advice anymore. And it's been a load off my shoulders ever since.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

My post was more on the state of job and role design and content that is not savage and the frustration it can bring.

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As someone who only does those kinds of contents, I rarely see any problem.

So, if other people are having problem, the question is to what extent does this problem actually exists within the community (and no, a popular thread or even a subreddit does not make a problem common/universal, merely that it continues to exist for some people).

And why are people frustrated in contents that usually don't require dps check or other stricter requirements? As other people have said, the normal contents in this game are generally easy in difficulty, and again, mediocrity is not about being bad, but being mediocre. And as a mediocre (or worse) player myself, I rarely have people take issues with my playstyle, nor do I see substantial issues often from others as well (though of course they exist, though some due to being new).

In fact, the general trend seems to be to enter, greet, be silent, be thankful, and leave for most dungeon/trial/raid/alliance raid runs. That is what it means to be mediocre in FFXIV: no mess, no problem, no frustration, no toxicity.

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

As an actual teacher, what you said is not all that accurate. Anyone can teach. Anyone can learn. None of us stop doing either in our lifetimes.

Someone teaching someone else is not inherently toxic at all. Throwing a fuss, because someone is pointing out your mistakes is.

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But the part you're missing is the environment. I mentor and train at my workplace, too. The difference there with being a teacher or mentor is that the environment has been established that learning will take place and that the students or trainee is there to learn from the teacher or mentor so they are pre-receptive to dialogue on the subject.

That's not the case in an online video game. It is possible to help others in game. But there's a necessary step of offering the help first and setting up that learning environment where someone is open to what someone has to teach. Many people try to shortcut this or consider it "coddling" so of course the person having instruction pushed on them isn't going to be receptive to it. They've done nothing to make sure the person will be.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

I mean where in my post did I bemoan the state of savage? It's actually one of the areas the game has done well since HW. Just wish there was more of it. My post was more on the state of job and role design and content that is not savage and the frustration it can bring. Savage by its nature tends to filter out the less able, and more often than not, the lazy.

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I wasn't specifically targeting someone.

As to the original subject, one thing I'm not sure was mentioned since I haven't read all pages of the thread but some of these changes to streamline and simplify the class itself have allowed them to make more complex mechanics. For instance, there was always an amount of movement in trials. But that has increased exponentially over the years. So they have had to streamline some things about classes that worked against those types of mechanics. When I heard Enochian and Blood of the Dragon were becoming traits I was very happy. And I can say that doing EW trial 1 and not having to worry about maintaining either of those was such a relief. I could still screw up my rotation on both classes otherwise. They just streamlined a piece and made me not have to worry about it so I could worry about what was going on in the arena more. I would say we're seeing a shift where the complexity is focused on mechanics much more. And in doing that, the burden of complexity falls on all party members, not just the one or two who were unlucky enough to have very involved gameplay on top of having to do those mechanics.

I like that we have all types of different skill levels with each player, and as a healer main myself I enjoy the wall-to-wall pulls and hectic fights because that engages me. However, when I'm with someone with less experience, I just talk to them and let them know they can pull more if they want and I can keep them up, but if they dont feel comfortable with it I am fine to also go at their pace and even help them learn.

Reading the room and communication really goes a long way in this game.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

As to the original subject, one thing I'm not sure was mentioned since I haven't read all pages of the thread but some of these changes to streamline and simplify the class itself have allowed them to make more complex mechanics. For instance, there was always an amount of movement in trials. But that has increased exponentially over the years.

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I really really do not enjoy that direction much if there is honesty. I feel same way about this that I do about cannons in any old content they appear in.

I signed up to play white mage not cannon lackey or DDR with landmines. Much like all the rhythm games you will eventually memorize and perfect the dance so that it no longer occupies majority of mental faculties. After this the mind shall wander possibly to your rotation and how that can be optimized, where you may find it lacking.

This is role playing game so would most like to succeed because I fulfilled my role and not because I ran to waymark A, then waymark D, then back to H1 position at waymark C at the two minute mark.

One of most enjoyable experiences I have ever had in FF14 land comes from the final fight of Rabanastre with mostly new persons present, myself included. Ohhhhhh boy does that start off deceptively only to transform into this big huge two part gauntlet. The run through the trenches, the attrition I felt stabilizing the party, the bursts of outgoing damage towards the end healer check. One misplaced ogcd, one mistimed heal and someone would experience demise. The mind raced as I pondered holding aetherflow to actually heal instead of dumping all into energy drain. I was playing my class. I was support. I felt essential and not simply because big raid wide at thirty seconds into split buster repeating at one minute intervals.

I wish to fail because I did not white mage properly, not because I was slightly off on my figure eight through the alternating aoe circles in game notorious for latency issues.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

I really really do not enjoy that direction much if there is honesty. I feel same way about this that I do about cannons in any old content they appear in.

I signed up to play white mage not cannon lackey or DDR with landmines. Much like all the rhythm games you will eventually memorize and perfect the dance so that it no longer occupies majority of mental faculties. After this the mind shall wander possibly to your rotation and how that can be optimized, where you may find it lacking.

This is role playing game so would most like to succeed because I fulfilled my role and not because I ran to waymark A, then waymark D, then back to H1 position at waymark C at the two minute mark.

One of most enjoyable experiences I have ever had in FF14 land comes from the final fight of Rabanastre with mostly new persons present, myself included. Ohhhhhh boy does that start off deceptively only to transform into this big huge two part gauntlet. The run through the trenches, the attrition I felt stabilizing the party, the bursts of outgoing damage towards the end healer check. One misplaced ogcd, one mistimed heal and someone would experience demise. The mind raced as I pondered holding aetherflow to actually heal instead of dumping all into energy drain. I was playing my class. I was support. I felt essential and not simply because big raid wide at thirty seconds into split buster repeating at one minute intervals.

I wish to fail because I did not white mage properly, not because I was slightly off on my figure eight through the alternating aoe circles in game notorious for latency issues.

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NGL I'm not hot on the trend myself. It lost me my gaming buddy. My hubby just got too much sensory overload with everything going on and couldn't keep up, so it wasn't fun anymore. He quit after 5.3.

I can see the benefit in spreading out the responsibility because I do think it was unfairly burdensome on more complex classes in the past to have to do their class gameplay *and* the fight gameplay. But like you said, the DDR with landmines gameplay loses its complexity when you memorize the pattern and get the muscle memory down. I think that's why as a fellow WHM main, I enjoy PUGs and especially running with new folks. There's that element of the unexpected in a group that's struggling that really tests my ability to adapt. I'm not sure how SE could fix this, outside of adding in more randomness to fights, which comes with its own set of problems.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

I really really do not enjoy that direction much if there is honesty. I feel same way about this that I do about cannons in any old content they appear in.

I signed up to play white mage not cannon lackey or DDR with landmines. Much like all the rhythm games you will eventually memorize and perfect the dance so that it no longer occupies majority of mental faculties. After this the mind shall wander possibly to your rotation and how that can be optimized, where you may find it lacking.

This is role playing game so would most like to succeed because I fulfilled my role and not because I ran to waymark A, then waymark D, then back to H1 position at waymark C at the two minute mark.

One of most enjoyable experiences I have ever had in FF14 land comes from the final fight of Rabanastre with mostly new persons present, myself included. Ohhhhhh boy does that start off deceptively only to transform into this big huge two part gauntlet. The run through the trenches, the attrition I felt stabilizing the party, the bursts of outgoing damage towards the end healer check. One misplaced ogcd, one mistimed heal and someone would experience demise. The mind raced as I pondered holding aetherflow to actually heal instead of dumping all into energy drain. I was playing my class. I was support. I felt essential and not simply because big raid wide at thirty seconds into split buster repeating at one minute intervals.

I wish to fail because I did not white mage properly, not because I was slightly off on my figure eight through the alternating aoe circles in game notorious for latency issues.

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I have to agree. My reflexes are not what they used to be and the DDR trend is making it more and more apparent. And then if I'm also dealing with any latency issues at the time, I'm really gonna be dead on the floor. And I've been dead on the floor A LOT more than normal this expansion. I apologize to everyone I've been in DF/PF with and I've hit the floor!

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

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Please stop typing out multiple paragraphs and being passive aggressive the entire time, while making no actual point with them. You are not being honest, and it shows.

Why are you randomly talking about clear parties? In what clear party are people face tanking?

You are also making up scenarios I was never in and do not apply to the face tank scenario I gave.

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Petition to close this thread and open a new one on the pros and cons of FFXIV DDR endgame.

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

Please stop typing out multiple paragraphs and being passive aggressive the entire time, while making no actual point with them. You are not being honest, and it shows.

Why are you randomly talking about clear parties? In what clear party are people face tanking?

You are also making up scenarios I was never in and do not apply to the face tank scenario I gave.

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If you think that constitutes as passive aggressive then you ought to rethink how soft your skin is, especially taking into account you yourself first elected to attempt to undermine my understanding or knowing on the difficulty, ease or impact of informal teaching, I just responded in kind and presented several scenarios to help reinforce the point I was making If anything I'm just responding in a blunt and straightforward manner. If you can't respond with a rebuttal and supporting it with examples, be it native to your original point or with several very common and realistic applicable examples, then simply don't respond. Furthermore, points were included within them, you just elected to ignore them because you can't refute them, simple as.

I mentioned them to reinforce the points I was making, just as you were when you elected to mention about people face tanking. But if you want to use that example then it's hardly about adaptability and just simply an unwillingness to learn because they didn't go in with that expectancy. Linking back to another poster wherein it is not suitable to teach because the environment or expectation wasn't established in advanced. I get it you try and want to be helpful but simply read the room and grasp whether they're open to the idea.

No they apply to the point I was making, you know, much like your scenario of face tanking. You used that as an example in order to attempt to support your point. Not unlike what I was doing. Don't attempt to undermine the examples as being made-up when they're fairly common-place in itself. Why do you think some people just aren't inclined to learn or present an aggressive stance when you try to 'teach' - Because that expectation wasn't established beforehand. - The fact people on this forum are very much of the belief that people on this game can't handle criticism of their ability nor playstyle (whether aggressively, or empathetically done) just supports this. This is why it's just as important in informal teaching as to what it is in formal teaching for the vast majority of people.

FF14 is a sandbox MMO, it's designed for EVERYONE. There's content for all skill level.
But the truth is simply that there's a massive amount of unskilled and stubborn player in the game. And a lot of white knights and enablers.
So many people can't to their rotation, can't read their skills, can't dodge anything, the cure1 bots, the "you pull you tank" players, the NOdps Sages... and so many people that defend that "bUt iTs fInE wE cAn ClEAr tHe CoNtent AnYWay DoNt Be tOXic bla bla bla"
There's a difference between being a toxic elitist and expecting people to play at a decent level by the time they reach the lvl90 dungeon...
Do you really think it's ok to do expert roulette in 30+ minutes because the healer is spamming cure 1, the tank is doing small pulls and the dps only know to do their 1-2-3 combo when it's easily beatable in less than 20 minutes by playing at a decent level?
Why there so much people ok with this is beyond me...

In all honesty this games been developed for casuals, caters to casuals, and has very limited challenging content for those who prefer this. Sadly this was not always the case but this is where we have landed. And If anyone mentions there should be more hard core content, it immediately gets shut down.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

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The soft skin comment is passive aggressive also. It's doesn't matter if I can handle it or not. There is no excuse for your behavior. Nothing you have said was straight forward. All you did was hide behind words. I was the only one being forward in my responses.

You can't fool someone actually trained in this sort of thing. It's pretty clear you either are not or completely forgot.

The example of a face tank was something I personally experienced, and I was very considerate about it. You are giving examples and applying those examples to me, which is completely unfair as they do not apply to me. Here is an example of something that does happen: There was one player that died a lot in one of the ShB 24 mans. I was healing, and they asked not to be rezzed and claimed that they were bad (meaning they didn't deserve the mana used on them). I told them I was still willing to rez and not to worry about dying more. I even explained a few things. They started to learn some of the mechanics. They still failed some of the latter mechanics on the last boss, but they kept at it from then on. The whole party was telling them how proud they were at the end of the raid for sticking it out and being a team player. But I guess that's just toxic behavior to you.

You keep acting like my advice falls on deaf ears. It often doesn't. MMOS are meant to be cooperative. If you are unwilling, play something else. This goes more so for people that intentionally throw PvP matches and AFK. You can teach people in it but the ones that don't try and don't care are very toxic, which was my original point. What goal post will you move next? I wonder.

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Originally Posted by Brownondorf

FF14 is a sandbox MMO, it's designed for EVERYONE. There's content for all skill level.
But the truth is simply that there's a massive amount of unskilled and stubborn player in the game. And a lot of white knights and enablers.
So many people can't to their rotation, can't read their skills, can't dodge anything, the cure1 bots, the "you pull you tank" players, the NOdps Sages... and so many people that defend that "bUt iTs fInE wE cAn ClEAr tHe CoNtent AnYWay DoNt Be tOXic bla bla bla"
There's a difference between being a toxic elitist and expecting people to play at a decent level by the time they reach the lvl90 dungeon...
Do you really think it's ok to do expert roulette in 30+ minutes because the healer is spamming cure 1, the tank is doing small pulls and the dps only know to do their 1-2-3 combo when it's easily beatable in less than 20 minutes by playing at a decent level?
Why there so much people ok with this is beyond me...

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??? FFXIV is a themepark MMO lol

BDO is a sandbox MMO

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

You can't fool someone actually trained in this sort of thing. It's pretty clear you either are not or completely forgot.

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Haha, are you serious?

Gotta say my confidence in the teaching ability of someone who's beating their chest this aggressively instead of just engaging with the arguments provided is... not high.

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Originally Posted by MidnightEquinox

Haha, are you serious?

Gotta say my confidence in the teaching ability of someone who's beating their chest this aggressively instead of just engaging with the arguments provided is... not high.

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What arguments? What chest beating? For giving an example of teaching working? Anyone can teach. It's nothing to boast about.

If this individual doesn't know how I interact with others in game, they really can't speak about how I teach or if it is effective.

I made a point to a completely different person (you I think; correct me if I'm wrong) and they took issue with it without actually saying anything of substance. That's par for the course on these forums but not in game. It's much easier to have real discussions there than here, because most people don't doubt your intentions to help in game. The entire purpose of having mentors was to do this sort of thing, although that went south. It went south, because many mentors were unwilling to help at all.

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

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Yes it was. Let me simplify this as much as possible:
- People are generally not going into instances with the intent of learning. Thus you're presented with backlash when you provided criticism (whether politely or otherwise). For this reason your whole show of "People always learning" doesn't necessarily apply. As per another factor you're skipping the whole environmental setup.
- You cannot go into the expectation of teaching in a half-hearted manner because you want a duty to go faster. This invariably only causes both individuals to become angry and unconducive to actually clearing the fight as promptly. Further to this it just creates many of the stigmas and generalisations - "Casual don't like being criticised" - "This community is immune to feedback" - These stigmas and generalisations inevitably lead to an "Us vs Them".
- Unsolicited advice and help generally only causes backlash. Whilst not disrespectful, intentionally anyway. Many people interpret this as being rude and respond according to that.
- Many people teaching on an unexpected basis are doing so with an expectation that the results will be nigh on immediate, a lot of people want others to learn quickly. This is often not the case and when the concern is getting the duty completed as fast as possible this is just unconducive to that. Many people will get angry and that's as much as it amounts to. <- This here is why I made the whole comparison with clear parties and learning parties.

For these reasons above I highlighted all as reasons as to disagree with your argument that anyone can teach. You could not expand on this barring to say "But simple". Even going as far to try and play make-belief that no points were made..

I'm not attempting to fool you. Given that you've ignored the whole environment and given that you seem painstakingly unaware of the consequences of such and continue with the insistence that teaching is not difficult just clearly shows you're the one here who is out of touch. Don't bother making these remarks as a poor attempt at trying to undermine the argument. You've been unable to relate it, you've underexplained and quite clearly only used it intentionally to undermine the argument without even having a courtesy of explaining.

Yes and the examples that I went with have been examples that I have personally come across, and they have equally been widely adopted within the forum itself quite apparently. Heck, I can even take a browse on a certain subreddit and find more relation to these points. You're just trying to create a double standard here in that you can seemingly adopt your own personal examples and expect them to apply to other individuals whilst not extending the same courtesy to people counterarguing your points. Honestly.. There are limits here. Either accept the points or counterargue them. I'm not entirely sure where you're fabricating these from but our original discussion on whether anyone can teach. Of which I counterargued this to say no they cannot if they go into the endeavour half-heartedly. - I'm pretty sure I've made no remarks on the effectiveness of your own methods, just merely explained the implications of why anyone cannot teach.

Don't bother trying to misconstrue the argument to me equating teaching to a toxic behaviour. Stating the obvious here but teaching in itself is not inherently toxic of which we can both agree with, but when it is done in an unsolicited fashion, and equally when that teaching is being underpinned by frustration then it generally leads to a toxic environment. Also don't use buzz-phrases that don't even remotely apply to the discussion in a thinly-veiled attempt to dismiss the argument being made. Either address it or don't. You've hardly addressed any of the arguments I've made, to be quite honest.

I feel like you feel as though I've been personally attacking you or your teaching, to which I have not. I've engaged in all of this discussion with you to try and inform you of the implication and reality of why not anyone can teach.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

And If anyone mentions there should be more hard core content, it immediately gets shut down.

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After reading a number of those threads, I believe it's the way the OP (of those threads) words their sentiment more than the quantity of "enablers". It's easy to mis-read "Content is Braindead Easy, We Need More Challenges" as "All Content Is Too Easy, Increase The Difficulty of Everything". That will/does bring people who prefer and will defend the current level of challenge in the game out to assert their points of view. We all know how that ends up...

I'm super casual, have reached my effective limit on improvement, and would be one of the people one might consider a Toxic Casual. I embrace the design philosophy of making sure the majority of group content has a low bar because a lot of the player base prefers it. Essentially, Roulettes and DF should continue to be the place people with modest ability go for group stuff. Extremes, Savages, and Ultimates are the content for people seeking additional challenge.

I believe people should seek to improve out of respect for their fellows, but not to a high-end raiding level. Everyone has their individual capability and everyone should seek to understand and accept that. I can't play effectively past Normal Raid and EX trial levels so I stay away from stuff past that. That's how I respect people playing more difficult content. Not complaining about and being insulting toward people like me is how Challenge-Seekers should respect the rest of the player base.

Should there be more hardcore content? I'm under the impression that Ultimates are about as hard as the dev team can make raids/trials. I've never even set foot in a Savage, so please forgive me if I'm mistaken. They already cater to a very small portion of the player base so I'm not sure making something for an even smaller group makes sense from a resource management standpoint. If they can make Ultimates even harder without expending additional resources that could be used on other projects, absolutely, do it. Should that not be possible, then no. Those resources would be better spent on things a larger portion of players will interact with and enjoy.

This game has always been fundamentally Casual-Friendly With Some Hard Content. Encouraging a culture of "mediocrity" originated with the development team's design philosophy, not the players. That design philosophy attracted and retained people who appreciated that sort of experience, which is what's led to the belief that the community as a whole embraces and defends "Toxic Casualism" and "Piss-Poor-Play". We've stuck with the game because we want a relaxed and "EZ-Mode" experience, with options for people to experience more challenging content, over the trends toward ever-increasingly difficult content to the exclusion of other content seen in other games. To be blunt, most of us are tired of the consistent complaints about lack of hardcore content and players' general lack of skill; especially from people who've come to the game in the past year or two.

So yes, it's not surprising that the people who love this game due to the intention choices of the development team get riled up by those decrying the continual decline in player ability and a general unwillingness to improve. This is exacerbated by the tendency of people complaining about the lack of challenge include abrasive commentary about the decaying level of skill across the player base. Such language would get anyone riled up if it were aimed at them.

If you want challenge, please seek it in Party Finder, FC groups, and statics running Savage or Ultimates. Please leave Dungeon Finder; the mechanism expressly intended to draw from the entire player population, alone if you're encountering more "Filthy Casuals" than you would like.

This is an MMO. They pay a sub to play a cooperative game with other people also paying subs.

It has nothing to do with duties going faster. Most people don't teach for duties to go faster. It's probably faster to just drag corpses across the finish line most of the time. You are simple accusing people of not actually caring, when they try to teach people. I have yet to see anyone going into teaching in a 'half-hearted' manner, and no I don't consider toxic behavior as teaching what is needed to be taught.

Everyone teaches. Tell me when was you formal training on this subject. Every single person in the world is at least an informal teacher and student. Everyone. No exceptions. Some are better at it than others. Some need to work on it. You should not tell people to not teach. That's unhealthy and also 100% impossible. Telling someone how to complete a mechanic they failed is not toxic, unless it was said in a toxic manner. It has nothing to do with intent. Every time a person goes into a duty, even with their static, they learn something. You cannot intend not to learn, and playing an MMO you should expect people to show you the ropes, when needed. It's also how life works.

You try to pegged me into a hole, where it didn't apply. That's all that happened. You applied your examples to me, which have nothing to do with me. If you don't want to apply it to me, then don't use the second person.

Plenty of people are happy when you explain the mechanics. I guess it goes with the tone. There's no need to say they are doing it wrong: just explain objectively what there is to do.

As for learning, well it's a game accessible to people 13+ yrs old, not a job. Many have families, jobs and limited time to play and do it to relax after a long day and some have more difficulties than others for a number of reasons.

"Lmao bruh! ItS a gAMe nOt a JoB!" is not a valid point to make in this case. When you play a cooperative game, like 14, you should have the common courtesy to try your hardest to complete the task at hand in an efficient manner. Its not about it being a "job", and more about not actively ruining the experience for other players.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

"Lmao bruh! ItS a gAMe nOt a JoB!" is not a valid point to make in this case. When you play a cooperative game, like 14, you should have the common courtesy to try your hardest to complete the task at hand in an efficient manner. Its not about it being a "job", and more about not actively ruining the experience for other players.

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I've never understood the idea that people are okay being, not even mediocre, but outright bad at something they consider a hobby. Especially in a cooperative environment. I liken it to someone showing up to a recreational basketball league and trying to punt the ball every time someone passes it to them. How well do they think screaming "ItS a GAme NoT a jOb!" would work in any other situation?

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

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Yes they do, obviously. But the reality is that many people are just not open to the idea of improvement beyond the bare minimum of minimums. US education is quite seemingly in a much better state then, many people get into the profession for all the wrong reasons, it was painfully obvious in my secondary years. - For reference, I've seen a teacher tell a student that they still get paid regardless of the result the student gets. As for my formal teaching, I've done several years of it in Higher Education, teaching anything from first year undergraduate students in my major, to teaching digital literacy and study skills, and on the other spectrum I've been involved with teaching digital skills to NEET. I have several certifications relating to the topics I teach, and 2 qualifications relating to education. Neither of these are relevant to the topic

The reality of the situation; regardless of whether you believe it to be the case or not (or whether you adhere to it), is that many people are woefully concerned with their time, both how they use it, and who they use it on. People want smooth duties, if they can help people along the way, then by all means, but the reality is this won't always be something that'll show in your duty. To take an example for myself, back in Heavenward someone was asking me why I wasn't using Bane on AoE packs (yes I know). When people are trying to blitz through these duties reading the tooltip and immediately putting it into execution on a routine basis just isn't happening in that dungeon, so I took the time, read the tooltip and facepalmed for an hour. Then in subsequent runs I started to use it until it naturally fit into muscle memory. Which need I might say took a few pulls. People at the time were equally pretty annoyed, and for obvious reasons.

The extent of me telling people not to teach is when they don't fully commit to it, either for that duty or whatever. It happens on a very regular basis. You cannot teach, expect people to immediately apply it then get frustrated when they don't. A lot of people in the community do this and are routinely upset by it and the general performance. I've reiterated several times that you only do so if you can commit and follow through without getting annoyed, because this is where stigmas and generalisations start that are detrimental to the community. Terms such as casual very quickly grow to have negative connotations. Equally so; it is unhealthy and unrealistic to expect that everyone can teach and is always doing so with the best of intentions in mind. If people want to teach by all means. But don't cry wolf when people don't learn within 10-15 minutes

Let me snag another example. If someone provides me with feedback, sure I'll be receptive to it and on the subsequent pulls I'll even try to apply it if I can, equally so for subsequent runs. This was a very commonplace thing to happen when I tried raiding in Eden's Verse. But if people, anyone does this and then bashes or berates the player for not meeting that expectation in a due timeframe, then the player very quickly becomes reluctant to forms of feedback. Why? Because to them they associate that experience with being berated. It has absolutely everything to do with intent. If you're trying to help and you're doing it with the goal of a faster or more efficient duty, you'll be woefully disappointed. If you try to help with the expectation that they'll learn fast; again, woefully disappointed. It is absolutely everything to do with intent and expectation, especially from the perspective of the one helping.

Again, I'm not personally attacking you, I'm just presenting you with logical reasons why not everyone should try, or why it can be detrimental to do so when you don't commit to the endeavour.

It's a game not a job. I don't get upset in a pickup game of basketball when people miss easy shots, I just keep playing.

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

Tell me when was you formal training on this subject.

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1995-1999!

:D

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

It's a game not a job. I don't get upset in a pickup game of basketball when people miss easy shots, I just keep playing.

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Are you paying for the play time or pay an entree fee to use the court? I've seen...things happen when people mess with payed limited court time.

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Originally Posted by BigHoffie

I've never understood the idea that people are okay being, not even mediocre, but outright bad at something they consider a hobby. Especially in a cooperative environment. I liken it to someone showing up to a recreational basketball league and trying to punt the ball every time someone passes it to them. How well do they think screaming "ItS a GAme NoT a jOb!" would work in any other situation?

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I can assure you you're mediocre or bad at at least one of your hobbies, unless you literally have like just the 1 hobby.

“It’s just a game” just tells me it’s a cardinal sin for someone to bore me. If someone else is bored with me I’ll kick, if the other three are boring I’ll bail.