The questions I want EW to answer the most: WHY and HOW was the world sundered?

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

How did we not see that we were tempered after we had the Blessing removed?

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How are you supposed to know if it's so subtle?

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Then you also have the Warriors of Darkness and Cylva who all had Blessings of Light and all joined the Ascians to fight against Hydaelyn, in addition to Saint Ajora who also had the Blessing and summoned an extremely evil entity to the planet that nuked a whole city and threatened to corrupt Hydaelyn herself.

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Emet-Selch effectively worked against the interests of Zodiark in Shadowbringers, so if Hydaelyn's tempering is the same why would her champions not be able to? It seems to me that she needs to actively go out of her way to control somebody.

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People have brought up Minfilia stopping Ardbert before in these forums and that's a very weak argument for his being tempered when all that happens is that she stops him so she can explain herself to him and then he gives up. If he were tempered, then she wouldn't explain herself after.

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The explanation she gives is "like the Ascians and Zodiark, some people need to serve me as well".

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As for Minfilia, she doesn't even have the Blessing of Light, so you can't really consider her actions to be a result of being tempered.

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The interplay between the Blessing and the Echo, especially that early in the game, it poorly expounded upon at best. Minfilia didn't have a crystal and wasn't a Warrior of Light - However, she was chosen as the Oracle of Light.

The question of WoL's relationship to Hydaelyn and potential tempering keeps being brought up, so I highly doubt this is an issue that is just going to be ignored or sidestepped in Endwalker.

Again, how did Midgardsormr blow away our Blessing of Light just like that if it's our being tempered?

Also, at what point of Shadowbringers before we blasted Emet-Selch away did he work against the interest of Zodiark? Everything he was doing was trying to bring the First closer to ruin in order to bring a Calamity and in one timeline where we weren't present, he succeeded. Since he's got the ability to see people's aether, he could have also at any point of time just casually dropped that we were tempered by Hydaelyn in order to mess us up but he never did and spent the entire first part of the expansion trying to schmooze with us and convince us, or at least any part of Azem inside us that he's right. Why would he even try if he could tell we were tempered?

Also, to be tempered you need to be in the presence of the primal. Venat and her crowd weren't tempered by Zodiark at the time he was the Will of the Star, why would Hydaelyn be any different, especially when she's weaker? We're not face to face with her outside of visions until late in Heavensward, which would invalidate any examples of so-called tempering before that event. And if she could temper people remotely, then why doesn't she give everyone on the entire planet low-level tempering? That would prevent literally every single Calamity that has ever happened if she says "free will for all, except in case of emergencies".

Tempering itself is a very weak narrative tool that already had its moment in the story in ARR and now it's being invalidated with the events of Shadowbringers anyway. I don't see any support for us being tempered beyond suppositions or misunderstandings.

The issue of the PC's potential tempering actually is addressed in a fireside chat with Ardbert('s spirit) during the Shadowbringers MSQ; he says it doesn't much matter since we'd be doing more or less the same things anyway.

Hydaelyn's blessing could be considered tempering, but if it is it's more of a placebo type of deal that doesn't appear to do much of anything other than prevent other primals from claiming our soul. Even that much is in question, given it's the Echo that prevents our tempering, not Hydaelyn's blessing - and we had the Echo before even a fraction of the blessing, so logically speaking we can't be tempered. (Except maybe by massive effort from an unfathomably powerful primal. Even Shinryu couldn't do it.)

The PC doesn't do good because they are compelled by Hydaelyn, the do so because it's who they are down to their very soul.

If we were tempered, an Angelo treatment would cure it; but nobody ever sees any sort of corruption, not even Y'shtola with her aethersense (after the Lightwardens' corruption is cleansed following the showdown with Hades). Besides which, if we were tempered, would we be able (or have to) question whether or not that's the case?

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Everything we know thus far is suggesting that the "dreamer" is Anima and it being described as a being of pure agony further suggests it's most likely just a primal summoned through circumstances similar to Shinryu; that is, an extremely powerful catalyst and tons of aether and emotion from sacrifices knowing or otherwise.

With all the fighting going on in the capital and the different Garlean factions fervently desiring to perpetuate Garlemald in their own way, the former may have been all that was needed to kickstart a summoning ritual.

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This with the added threat catalyst that it will be controlled by Zenos.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

What's pointing at that being Anima, if 'everything' is saying that? Because all I really know we have on Anima is 'she's coming and she's angry', which doesn't tell us much (and in fact, that second part isn't even news when talking about Anima). There's nothing to really relate her to being 'the dreamer', which we also know very little about, beyond 'presumably sleeping'.

Personally I've been assuming 'the dreamer' is just a poetic term Zenos and possibly Fantastic Daniel are using to refer to Zodiark. Who's not easily described with English terminology in his current state, but yeah, I wouldn't deny the reading of 'sleeping'.

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There's little doubt that there's some kind of primal lurking in Garlemald between the whole tower situation and that unsettling roar (Which was mentioned as being the only thing the victims of the tower tempering could recall).

We know that the "gate of the gods" requires a heavy amount of resources to be opened (Which lines up with how the towers are siphoning aether out of the environment as well as their prisoners), and the dreamer is somehow involved in this process.

The nickname of "the dreamer" also fits rather cleanly with Anima's original role in FF X as the summoned form of the one of the fayths whose dream sustains Spira's self-destructive cycle of pilgrimage and sacrifice.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The issue of the PC's potential tempering actually is addressed in a fireside chat with Ardbert('s spirit) during the Shadowbringers MSQ; he says it doesn't much matter since we'd be doing more or less the same things anyway.

Hydaelyn's blessing could be considered tempering, but if it is it's more of a placebo type of deal that doesn't appear to do much of anything other than prevent other primals from claiming our soul. Even that much is in question, given it's the Echo that prevents our tempering, not Hydaelyn's blessing - and we had the Echo before even a fraction of the blessing, so logically speaking we can't be tempered. (Except maybe by massive effort from an unfathomably powerful primal. Even Shinryu couldn't do it.)

The PC doesn't do good because they are compelled by Hydaelyn, the do so because it's who they are down to their very soul.

If we were tempered, an Angelo treatment would cure it; but nobody ever sees any sort of corruption, not even Y'shtola with her aethersense (after the Lightwardens' corruption is cleansed following the showdown with Hades). Besides which, if we were tempered, would we be able (or have to) question whether or not that's the case?

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I see what you're saying, but issue at hand is the Ascians have claimed to have been tempered by Zodiark. So if Zodiark can temper them and they have the echo, it's possible that Hydaelyn has tempered the WOL. Even if it isn't to control them and allows them to think freely but at the same time protect them from other primals. Hopefully this is fully clarified in Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

I see what you're saying, but issue at hand is the Ascians have claimed to have been tempered by Zodiark. So if Zodiark can temper them and they have the echo, it's possible that Hydaelyn has tempered the WOL. Even if it isn't to control them and allows them to think freely but at the same time protect them from other primals. Hopefully this is fully clarified in Endwalker.

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Again; it's not possible that she has. Even if you dismiss that Ifrit directly clarified this exact point back in ARR, you then need to acknowledge 'why would the Ascians not use this information against us', because they would also know exactly that, and Emet-Selch and Elidibus had every reason to crack it out if it were true, so we can reason that it's not. And even if you dismiss that, you then need to acknowledge that the Scions have exactly the same information as we do, and still never bring it up, almost as if it's not a conclusion that reasonably educated and trustworthy people in-universe would think is credible.

And if you dismiss THAT... who do you want to hear from to believe this? Because I feel like you wouldn't believe Hydaelyn herself, and yet that's basically the only higher authority left to hear from on this.

But, again: there's nothing saying she can't temper us, just that she hasn't.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

There's little doubt that there's some kind of primal lurking in Garlemald between the whole tower situation and that unsettling roar (Which was mentioned as being the only thing the victims of the tower tempering could recall).

We know that the "gate of the gods" requires a heavy amount of resources to be opened (Which lines up with how the towers are siphoning aether out of the environment as well as their prisoners), and the dreamer is somehow involved in this process.

The nickname of "the dreamer" also fits rather cleanly with Anima's original role in FF X as the summoned form of the one of the fayths whose dream sustains Spira's self-destructive cycle of pilgrimage and sacrifice.

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And on this... yeah, I can't knock out any of that. I don't think any of it's directly confirming it, and you shouldn't necessarily be going 'this is definitely the exact thing that's happening' (and personally I'm still rooting for my 'Anima is Emmerololth' theory), but the logic holds up to scrutiny and the idea holds some narrative weight, so yeah, it can work.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Again, how did Midgardsormr blow away our Blessing of Light just like that if it's our being tempered?

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He should be one of the most powerful creatures on the planet. I don't see why he couldn't.

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Also, at what point of Shadowbringers before we blasted Emet-Selch away did he work against the interest of Zodiark?

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First, he doesn't simply kill everybody from the very start. He could have just allied with Vauthry and had the Sin Eaters swarm over Lakeland and slaughter everyone, and at many points throughout the expansion he has opportunities to do as he pleases on such a front. Moreso, he goes as far as to save Y'shtola, an enemy, for really no gain on his own part. He reveals the history of the Final Days and the Sundering and the true nature of Hydaelyn and Zodiark as primals, all things which could be dangerous to reveal for Zodiark. He allows WoL to absorb the Light without knowing whether or not it would be contained, throwing the entire rejoining of the First into jeopardy. He creates the entire plan with the Azem stone in preparation for his own defeat, and when confronting WoL never retreats when he easily could have done so, endangering the entire Ascian cause through his own death. After which, he outright saves WoL's life against Elidibus, causing his downfall and all but ending the Ascians as an organization.

None of this is advancing Zodiark's will, if anything it's actively harmful.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The issue of the PC's potential tempering actually is addressed in a fireside chat with Ardbert('s spirit) during the Shadowbringers MSQ; he says it doesn't much matter since we'd be doing more or less the same things anyway.

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The issue is, it would matter if suddenly we came to a moment where her will and ours were in contradiction. This isn't something that can be dismissed out of hand, WoL themselves has a serious complex over it.

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Even that much is in question, given it's the Echo that prevents our tempering, not Hydaelyn's blessing - and we had the Echo before even a fraction of the blessing, so logically speaking we can't be tempered.

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As others have said, that didn't help the Convocation.

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but nobody ever sees any sort of corruption, not even Y'shtola with her aethersense

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There's no evidence for Y'shtola or any of the Scions being able to sense tempering. So far as I can recall she never says anything about Emet being tempered despite having seen him, none of the Scions are able to use their goggles to discern that there are tempered in the Ala Mhigan ranks or whether or not Ga Bu was truly tempered, and Y'shtola's aethervision clearly isn't so acute that she can tell whether somebody is an Ascian, a disembodied soul possessing a body, or even if someone is themselves a primal. Basically, if WoL was tempered, there's no way for anybody to be able to tell.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

He should be one of the most powerful creatures on the planet. I don't see why he couldn't.

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So... according to that, Midgardsormr, Hydaelyn's oldest and most powerful protector, removes our tempering in order to test our worthiness to Hydaelyn? And he never brings it up ever again despite the fact that we go through giant efforts that take up a whole patch to figure out how to end tempering when he's been with us the entire time? That doesn't make any sense and the amount of hoops that "Blessing of Light = tempering" has to go through in order to be an actual thing when the "tempering" has no actual affect considering all the WoLs who go against her will isn't worth it.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

First, he doesn't simply kill everybody from the very start. He could have just allied with Vauthry and had the Sin Eaters swarm over Lakeland and slaughter everyone, and at many points throughout the expansion he has opportunities to do as he pleases on such a front. Moreso, he goes as far as to save Y'shtola, an enemy, for really no gain on his own part. He reveals the history of the Final Days and the Sundering and the true nature of Hydaelyn and Zodiark as primals, all things which could be dangerous to reveal for Zodiark. He allows WoL to absorb the Light without knowing whether or not it would be contained, throwing the entire rejoining of the First into jeopardy. He creates the entire plan with the Azem stone in preparation for his own defeat, and when confronting WoL never retreats when he easily could have done so, endangering the entire Ascian cause through his own death. After which, he outright saves WoL's life against Elidibus, causing his downfall and all but ending the Ascians as an organization.

None of this is advancing Zodiark's will, if anything it's actively harmful.

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As for Emet-Selch, he already stated his plan in the story. To begin with, he only shows up after we've already ruined his original plans with Vauthry and Eulmore and killed half of the lightwardens, absorbing their aether. He senses a new plan from that and directed us to suck up all the light wardens, which was supposed to turn us into a super lightwarden to go crazy and wreck the First and we held on, but barely. He himself stated that whenever we show up, Ascian plans go awry so he was trying to instead take a different, sly approach to things. On top of that, he said he can't operate well in the light of the First so that sort of prevents him from going full Hades and wrecking everything. He doesn't spend much screentime in the light and the only power we see him use under the unnatural sky is teleportation. He even uses a gun of all things to shoot someone, when he's supposed to have the power of a full Ancient being. I'm not sure he could go full Ascian in the light of the First to correct our meddling if he wanted to.

The other half of the new plan was that if we showed we could suck up all of the lightwardens and be OK, that we are his friend reborn. He was hoping to recruit us to work with him to bring back Zodiark and rejoin the Convocation. I'm not sure how revealing all of the history damages Zodiark's revival. It was all in an effort to convince us of his righteousness and when we refused, he tried to kill us. Don't know how that's a rebellion against Zodiark.

As for his actions after his defeat, his aether was finally returned to the Lifestream after we blasted him. I don't believe anything he does after he's already killed should reflect being tempered by Zodiark and expecting that is a bit ridiculous.


I thought the forums gave up on "WoL is tempered" after the true nature of the Echo was revealed, Trying to pin the tempering on something else just feels like "pictures connected by strings on a corkboard" crazy. It's easier to explain that we help Hydaelyn because we want to save the world, not because we're made to. Before we even met Minfilia or ever even heard the name "Hydaelyn", we were presented with the clear danger of "shadowy beings are operating behind the scenes to cause trouble and kill people" and followed that thread to where we are now. Going back to retcon all that as "we were told to" is a super silly cheap shot.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

After which, he outright saves WoL's life against Elidibus

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Out of topic a bit but, is that canon ? if so, how does it work?

I didn't read that cutscene at face value; for me it was more a poetic (fan-service even) representation of Elidibus understanding Emet had planned the whole reveal about Azem and Azem's power to us. But I didn't see it as Emet actually being there to do this.

But if it is true, then how could Emet just... save us, (let alone manifest) in the world when we have killed him and returned his soul to the Aethereal sea?

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Out of topic a bit but, is that canon ? if so, how does it work?

I didn't read that cutscene at face value; for me it was more a poetic (fan-service even) representation of Elidibus understanding Emet had planned the whole reveal about Azem and Azem's power to us. But I didn't see it as Emet actually being there to do this.

But if it is true, then how could Emet just... save us, (let alone manifest) in the world when we have killed him and returned his soul to the Aethereal sea?

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I believe the end of the story Ere Our Curtain Falls explains it. After the big fight, Emet was 'on the brink of death' when he gets the call from the WoL. He used what little strength he had left to save them.

Russell's teapot - "You can't disprove [X], therefore it must be true."

That it can't be disproven the PC is tempered doesn't mean they are, and (by my reckoning at any rate) there's much more evidence against that being the case than for it.

That's not to say Hydaelyn can't or doesn't temper people (pretty sure it was part of that whole "Word of the Mother" deal she put Minfilia through), but I personally haven't seen anything suggesting that's the case with the PC.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Again; it's not possible that she has. Even if you dismiss that Ifrit directly clarified this exact point back in ARR, you then need to acknowledge 'why would the Ascians not use this information against us', because they would also know exactly that, and Emet-Selch and Elidibus had every reason to crack it out if it were true, so we can reason that it's not. And even if you dismiss that, you then need to acknowledge that the Scions have exactly the same information as we do, and still never bring it up, almost as if it's not a conclusion that reasonably educated and trustworthy people in-universe would think is credible.

And if you dismiss THAT... who do you want to hear from to believe this? Because I feel like you wouldn't believe Hydaelyn herself, and yet that's basically the only higher authority left to hear from on this.

But, again: there's nothing saying she can't temper us, just that she hasn't.

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I'm not so sure. Especially if they still have freedom of choice. The Ascian who has been temepered to Zodiark snaps back with you are tempered to Hydaelyn and can't trust her. But the immediate response is but it protects me from your brainwashing, and other primal tempering and she refuses to control my decisions, guess she can still be trusted more than you. These are not great points of manipulation.

Honestly, give the villains and the writing a little more credit then this.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

I'm not so sure. Especially if they still have freedom of choice. The Ascian who has been temepered to Zodiark snaps back with you are tempered to Hydaelyn and can't trust her. But the immediate response is but it protects me from your brainwashing, and other primal tempering and she refuses to control my decisions, guess she can still be trusted more than you. These are not great points of manipulation.

Honestly, give the villains and the writing a little more credit then this.

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I am.

Emet-Selch is a man who desperately wanted us to understand and agree with him and his (terrible, awful, no-good) point of view. If this is true, he would have had the intelligence to recognize it, and would have raised it just as he got to divulge the information that Hydaelyn is a primal. Remember that he's the one that tells us that the Ascians are tempered. He really tries to push the notion that we're not so different and would make the same choices; he would have had every good reason to bring it up, and no good reason not to. Similar with Elidibus, except with him the similarities come from a slightly different direction. And in both cases we have reason to believe it would have shaken them, because the Scions are not perfect unfeeling hyper-rational robot people; they were shaken by the news Hydaelyn is a primal, remember, so they would have similarly been shaken by the notion that the WoL has been tempered by her.

I would also point out that Fandaniel knows and has had ample opportunity to break our brains with the reveal, but unlike the other two, we don't really have a full grasp on his M.O. or his views on us. So while we can reasonably say that he would have the capacity to say it, we can't say he would have wanted to just yet.

You say I should 'give more credit than that', but... honestly, I can say the same of you. I'm in my position because I've given the writers the credit to have laid down proper information and not contradicted it over eight years, and for them to have written smart, realistic characters that would A: notice something like this, B: recognize its ramifications, and C: do something about it. I trust them to be intelligent people who wrote intelligent characters, and intelligent characters, if this was even remotely true, would have noticed.

Give the heroes and the writing a little more credit than you are.

And incidentally... what do you want this hypothetical reveal to do? Because you've just said that you believe that they would immediately have a completely unphased response of 'yeah but I'm 100% fine so nyah'. In your mind, the characters apparently wouldn't be affected whatsoever by this twist, so... what difference would it even make? Why root for a 'twist' that apparently changes nothing about nobody?

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Originally Posted by Geriel

I believe the end of the story Ere Our Curtain Falls explains it. After the big fight, Emet was 'on the brink of death' when he gets the call from the WoL. He used what little strength he had left to save them.

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Thanks ! I read it now. I'm still unsure it's that explicit but it sure helps understanding things better :)

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Originally Posted by Veloran

He should be one of the most powerful creatures on the planet. I don't see why he couldn't.

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Moreover, if she is setting up that aspect of tempering that relates to an energy or elemental link to the Primal, I see zero reason why a dragon on the order of power of Midgardsormr (also affiliated with her) couldn't suppress such a link so that the blessed stops drawing on the Primal, albeit temporarily.

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First, he doesn't simply kill everybody from the very start. He could have just allied with Vauthry and had the Sin Eaters swarm over Lakeland and slaughter everyone, and at many points throughout the expansion he has opportunities to do as he pleases on such a front. Moreso, he goes as far as to save Y'shtola, an enemy, for really no gain on his own part. He reveals the history of the Final Days and the Sundering and the true nature of Hydaelyn and Zodiark as primals, all things which could be dangerous to reveal for Zodiark. He allows WoL to absorb the Light without knowing whether or not it would be contained, throwing the entire rejoining of the First into jeopardy. He creates the entire plan with the Azem stone in preparation for his own defeat, and when confronting WoL never retreats when he easily could have done so, endangering the entire Ascian cause through his own death. After which, he outright saves WoL's life against Elidibus, causing his downfall and all but ending the Ascians as an organization.

None of this is advancing Zodiark's will, if anything it's actively harmful.

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Correct. There's further nuances to it, in that alone among the unsundered trio, he focused heavily on preserving his memory and identity (and we also know by cross-referencing Elidibus's final lines - FR in particular, copied below - and his short story that, even after the tempering, the Convocation disagreed on some matters, hence he returned to mediate.) The self-same memories and identity that came flooding back to Tiamat as her tempering withered. If it can go on one direction, it may well flow in the other too, i.e. preservation of memory serves so as to shield from that loss of identity. There are several elements to tempering besides (intent of the summon/the nature of the primal, the primal's intent, relative power of the summoners etc.) which all influence how tempering manifests and to me writing in this flexibility leaves open the possibility of using it with Hydaelyn much as they have with Zodiark and Bahamut.

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Elidibus : Oh, je me souviens, maintenant... Mes amis... je voulais les aider... leur apporter la salvation en devenant Zordiarche... Mais ça ne suffit pas à faire cesser leurs lamentations…
= “Oh, I remember, now… My friends… I wanted to help them… bring them salvation by becoming Zodiark… But that was not enough to stop their lamentations…”


Elidibus : Le Concile avait perdu sa cohésion... Face à l'anéantissement, les avis divergeaient sur la marche à suivre pour sauver notre planète…
= “The Council had lost its cohesion… Faced with annihilation, opinions differed on the way forward to save our planet…”

Elidibus : Ça ne leur ressemblait pas... Plus que jamais, ils avaient besoin d'Elidibus... Ils avaient besoin de moi... Alors, je me suis détaché de Zordiarche pour voler à leur secours...
= “It wasn’t like them… More than ever, they needed Elidibus… They needed me… So, I broke away from Zodiark to come to their aid…”


Elidibus : C'est ça... Chacun d'eux, je les aimais plus que tout... !
= “That’s it… Each of them, I loved them more than anything…!”

Elidibus : J'espérais qu'en accomplissant mon devoir, je pourrais à nouveau les voir souriants et heureux... !
= “I hoped that by accomplishing my duty, I could see them smiling and happy again…!”

Elidibus : Je devais partir en dernier... Comment aurais-je pu abandonner mes amis, esseulés en ce bas monde ?
= “I should have left last… How could I have abandoned my friends, alone(forsaken) in this world?”

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The issue is, it would matter if suddenly we came to a moment where her will and ours were in contradiction. This isn't something that can be dismissed out of hand, WoL themselves has a serious complex over it.


As others have said, that didn't help the Convocation.

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Indeed. Let's not underestimate the possibility of a plot thread similar to Yunalesca's, where she is insistent that her method is followed.

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There's no evidence for Y'shtola or any of the Scions being able to sense tempering. So far as I can recall she never says anything about Emet being tempered despite having seen him, none of the Scions are able to use their goggles to discern that there are tempered in the Ala Mhigan ranks or whether or not Ga Bu was truly tempered, and Y'shtola's aethervision clearly isn't so acute that she can tell whether somebody is an Ascian, a disembodied soul possessing a body, or even if someone is themselves a primal. Basically, if WoL was tempered, there's no way for anybody to be able to tell.

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We are also dealing with the fact that the Scions are only now processing the true nature of tempering. What was it Elidibus said about perception? :)

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"Knowledge dictates expectation, and expectation colors perception. Thus did she perceive naught."

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The Blessing even functions so as to deliver a similar outcome to tempering, in that the aim of tempering for the tempered (as per Emet-Selch) is to spread the primal's energy or element. Likewise, what did a profusion of crystals of light achieve on the First? The question that should be asked is can a Primal empower a non-tempered individual, or do they need to create some kind of link with them in order to allow energy to flow between the two? Emet-Selch very much describes tempering as just such a network and it is very probable that this is the link that allows e.g. Elidibus to sense if the others are still around.

We don't know the answer to this, so it is folly to try dismiss the possibility out of hand.

I also know Ifrit is frequently brought up as the basis of doing so, but Garuda had a different view on it:

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That foul stench...I see now! She has touched you!

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Ifrit may just lack the sophistication or power to see it. Lakshmi also complains of her foe's souls being "stained".

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Originally Posted by Geriel

Exactly.

Minfilia (Word of the Mother) basically tells you that the Blessing of Light is just a nice way of saying 'tempered minion'.

"As the Ascians must serve as instruments of Zodiark's will, so too must others carry out the will of Hydaelyn."

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Her lines in the French version are even suggestive of her own tempering:

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Messagère d'Hydaelyn : Au milieu des cris de nos camarades happés par le sort interdit, je me suis laissé absorber à mon tour par le flux éthéré. Lorsque j'ai repris conscience, je nageais dans la mer des étoiles.
= “In the midst of the cries of our comrades caught by the forbidden spell, I let myself be absorbed in turn by the aetherial flow. Once I regained consciousness, I was swimming in the sea of stars (aetherial sea).”

Messagère d'Hydaelyn : Tout à coup, j'ai réalisé que la douce voix d'Hydaelyn était de plus en plus lointaine. J'avais tellement peur de la perdre que mon seul désir devint de me fondre en elle pour que nous soyons unies à jamais.
= “All of a sudden, I realized that the soft voice of Hydaelyn was becoming more and more distant. I was so scared to lose it that my sole desire was to melt into her so that we would be united forever.”

Messagère d'Hydaelyn : C'est ainsi que je suis devenue sa messagère. La planète s'exprime à travers moi, et cette voix que tu écoutes est la sienne. Tu es celui que notre Mère a choisi pour recueillir la vérité de ce monde.
= “It is then that I became her messenger. The planet speaks through me, and the voice that you hear now is its own. You are the one that our Mother has chosen to obtain the truth of this world.”

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I guess what matters is what we would do differently if it turns out we were tempered. Or what we would perceive differently. Some people would see that as a "retcon" if for example some people in our visions really didn't say the actual things we heard/remember them saying.

For example... we may not have taken G'raha Tia's vision for granted (similar to Y'shtola's distrust of him). Both he and Emet-Selch presented us with their visions of the ends of days (G'raha's was just relayed to us through Urianger who believed him for reasons that could be adjacent to tempering...a kindship through the quest for knowledge though we don't know for what end and won't until Endwalker...and before this, the Gerun Oracles thing, which I still don't understand).

As for not giving the convocation enough credit, Emet-Selch doesn't recognize or consider the Exarch "knowable," at least in the English translation, until he found out they were fighting over what was essentially the same deity to suit the needs of their duties. The Venat people met seemingly in secret while the Zodiark people were a government entity as far as we can tell and worked in the capital building. So maybe they really didn't know how indoctrination worked for the other group. Kind of like...do we know how Ascians happened? They have no shadow and live forever (but not really), and we don't know if all of them are Zodiark people or not. Why are they branded on their face? Who exactly approaches and coronates the new members? Who were the original Emet-Selch and Elidibus and the other members and how did these younger people get caught up in this thing (because the originals aren't even really the originals...)? We don't know the extent of their tempering because we haven't met an untempered one yet (well, maybe Fandaniel). Wouldn't that kind of stuff be what we are going to their moon base to find out?

Throwing out tempering as just not possible is understandable because it could be seen as a "retcon" but is it really though? Is that why it upsets people so much? Wouldn't we see Garlemald in a new light once we became untempered and have more sympathy for the people there?

I have been back and forth on whether we are tempered and whether it even matters, so I'm not trying to be condescending. It is really saying something that the cure to tempering is "flying pigs." (As in, "when pigs can fly." Canonically, they smell like sausage. This is one lore fact I know.)

I appreciate people who can compile the lore because I am too scatterbrained. We need a Librarians and Historians of Eorzea Day sometime soon.

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Originally Posted by vormela

The Venat people met seemingly in secret while the Zodiark people were a government entity as far as we can tell and worked in the capital building. So maybe they really didn't know how indoctrination worked for the other group. Kind of like...do we know how Ascians happened? They have no shadow and live forever (but not really), and we don't know if all of them are Zodiark people or not. Why are they branded on their face? Who exactly approaches and coronates the new members? Who were the original Emet-Selch and Elidibus and the other members and how did these younger people get caught up in this thing (because the originals aren't even really the originals...)? We don't know the extent of their tempering because we haven't met an untempered one yet (well, maybe Fandaniel). Wouldn't that kind of stuff be what we are going to their moon base to find out?

Throwing out tempering as just not possible is understandable because it could be seen as a "retcon" but is it really though? Is that why it upsets people so much? Wouldn't we see Garlemald in a new light once we became untempered and have more sympathy for the people there?

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This is a lot to get through.

-It's not clear whether or not Venat's group was aware of tempering. The only hint we have in regards to that is one of them describing the Convocation as "stubborn," which could be due to tempering or simply because it's how they were even before the advent of Zodiark.

-"Ascian" is just a label applied to the three unsundered survivors of the Sundering, as well as the soul fragments of their cohorts they raised up to their former stations via memory crystals.

-The Ascians not having a shadow was dropped from 1.0 - 2.0. While the Ancients they technically are did have greater lifespans than the contemporary races living on the Source and shards, it wasn't infinite - according to Emet-Selch they "only" "lived for an age," and the short story "Ere Our Curtain Falls" makes it eminently clear that without memory crystals of their own the unsundered would have lost their memories and identities long ago (thus implying they've extended their lives far beyond what would be natural).

-All three unsundered were, in theory, tempered by Zodiark, though this gets a little fuzzy. Emet-Selch admits he was, but Lahabrea showed signs of defiance or at least pursuing his agenda over that of Zodiark ("By my will..." in regards to his actions in Ishgard). Elidibus is a tiny piece of Zodiark himself, so being tempered by the same is... probably not possible, but he is still bound to carry out the purpose for which Zodiark was summoned. Given the sundered Ascians are elevated, reborn fragments of former Convocation seat holders, they would have been through the Lifestream to cleanse them of tempering... and it's also mentioned by Emet-Selch that unrelated people can be raised up, so how tempered they are (if at all) is very questionable.

-The Ascian glyphs that show up when they're exercising their full powers are believed to be a sort of "badge of office." Each one is unique, and is derived from a flipped fragment of the Ascian's corresponding Esper's glyph from Final Fantasy XII (except Azem's, of course, since the PC never manifests theirs; Azem's glyph does show up in the sun-pattered summoning circle used before and during the fight with Warrior of Light Elidibus though).

-Based on "Through His Eyes" and "Ere Our Curtain Falls," Convocation seat holders were chosen through some sort of council - perhaps the current seated members of the Convocation themselves. The current Convocation - known as the Ascians - is comprised of the three Unsundered (Lahabrea, Elidibus, and Emet-Selch) who seek out the sundered soul fragments of their former cohorts across the shards and elevate them to their former station with crystals containing their memories of those shards' past selves. Though, they don't actually need sundered soul shards of former Convocation seat holders - anyone will do, though they prefer the former since that makes them more devoted to the cause.

-We don't know how severe the tempering of the Convocation members is - see above - but according to Emet-Selch he and the others "exist[ed] only to bring about the rule of Dark and Zodiark's supremacy," though they do seem to have maintained a good degree of personal agency. Make of that what you will.

-Nobody's really sure what's up on the moon. The only thing we know for sure is that it's got some Allagan crap on it, an Ancient outpost (Mare Lamentorum), and according to Hydaelyn is Zodiark's prison.

I can't speak for anyone else but I don't think it's impossible for the PC to have been tempered by Hydaelyn, just very very unlikely because we've seen no evidence that's the case other than Hydaelyn giving a falsified account on the origin of her conflict with Zodiark (and the "correct" account actually is a retcon, given the writers of 3.2 didn't seem to know how they wanted the Zodiark/Ascian storyline to play out). My issue is that the whole train of thought seems designed to play into the "Hydaelyn is a primal, all primals are bad, therefore we must kill Hydaelyn" narrative... certain people... want to see play out, even though we've known since, what, 2.3 that not all primals behave in accordance with the general rules laid out by the Scions during 2.0's rundown of how they operate. Further as illustrated elsewhere it's essentially a nonissue - tempering or no the PC would still do the same things they're doing because it's who they are down to their soul, so the whole "we're just Hydaelyn's tempered mind-slaves" shtick feels... disingenuous at this point.

How sympathetic the PC is in regards to Garlemald is largely dependent on how sympathetic the player is to Garlemald; I can't speak for anyone else but while I sympathize with their plight (more on the whole "they were deceived into becoming agents of chaos" than "they had natural disadvantages and were pushed to inhospitable territory" front), I don't feel the latter excuses (let alone justifies) their more egregious offenses toward the rest of the peoples of the (known) world, and is the argument made much more often.

FFXIV starts with a supernatural vision.


When we finish character creation, our character floats down through what appears to be the Aetherial Sea. We hold our face, as though in pain, a gesture we later find to be an Echo vision symptom. We hear Hydaelyn for the first time, and we see a light reminiscent of the sun. We approach it, only for a rift portal to materialize Lahabrea, who merely stands there. The Light then effortlessly bypasses him, and shines down upon us, changing from a warm orange-yellow to a bright white-blue, covering us in its light, causing an aura to burst forth around us as blue white flame. It covers us in our chosen profession's artifact armor, and arms us with a weapon of light. We gesture towards Lahabrea in an offensive posture. Only then does Lahabrea become hostile, flying forward to face us unarmed. Everything flashes to white, and then fades to black. We awaken to the merchant in the carriage/ferry worrying over whether we have Aether Sickness or not.

In the next sequence where we are brought on a soul level face to face with Hydaelyn, The Mothercrystal. She beseeches us to deliver the realm from darkness, to seek out Crystals of Light, and also refers to us as, "My Child."

Ifrit's whole line in response to our not being Tempered by his flames.

IFRIT: "Forsooth, thy frail mortal frame can serve as vessel to the blessing of but One. Yet I smell not the taint of another upon thee... The truth of thy allegiance waxeth clear--thou art of the godless blessed's number. The Paragons warned of thine abhorrent kind. Thine existence is not to be suffered.

This implied that Ifrit did not know the truth about us, but was fed false information by the Ascians, who do not view Hydaelyn as a Goddess, only as a blight. It could have also been the Echo, a more likely supposition by some. Keep in mind though, this is also a very weak version of Ifrit, too. He might not have his proper powers of detection.

Off Topic Note: The Crystal of Light platform has light and dark arrows with a CoL at each point, much like the elemental polarity charts we see later in the game.

Titan refers to the Kobolds as, "my children." He goes on to call you a Godless overdweller, references Ifrit, but makes no mention of the Ascians. Though it's safe to assume his knowledge was granted to him by them, too.

Garuda refers to the Ixal as her children. She goes into shrieking about why and how and what are we? Then comes the line someone already reference, "That foul stench... I see now... She has touched you!"

Our next communicae with Hydaeyn comes in the midst of the battle against Ultima Weapon.

HYDAELYN: "Hearken unto me, crystal bearer. They foe is Darkness clad in steel. If thou wouldst triumph, thou must look to the Light."

Hydaelyn proceeds to intervene in the fight directly by using what we now know as the Power of Enervation to rend the Primals from the Ultima Weapon.

Ultima happens, such devastation something something not intent.

HYDAELYN: "I have not the strength to shield thee again... Permit not the manifestation of that vile magick, lest Darkness prevail!"

Something something, someone needs to get Hydaelyn a dictionary. Nothing Lahabrea said was subtle etc. We free Thancred.

HYDAELYN: "Hear... Feel... Think... Warrior of Light Beloved son. The Darkness hath fled before the unclosed brilliance of thy spirit. Yet it lingereth still beyond the sight of men, in forgotten corners of the world. In the depths of the abyss resideth the Dark One, watchful ever. Till this evil be cast out, never shall the world know aught but a passing peace. Yet for the present a gentle light shineth o'er the realm of Eorzea. With thee at its heart. From sparkling mote shall it swell to glorious sun, and all the world shall bask in its warmth.

Hydaelyn then begins to cast the WoL out of the Aetherial Sea. The WoL stretches out their hand in alarm, not wanting to part from Hydaelyn.

"Blessings and joy upon thee. Go forth, my child, and be as a beacon of hope for Eorzea and the lands beyond, through all the days of thy life."

The Scions and GC Leaders are worrying. Minfilia prays to Hydaelyn.

MINFILIA: "Please, Mother Hydaelyn. Please light his way through the darkness..."

HYDAELYN: "Look into the Light, my child. If thou wouldst see thy companions returned safe to thee, reach out to them now."

After the yeehaw and hoohahs and the credits we get a vision of the Mothercrystal, except it's purple and dark. It nor we speak.

So I think it's safe to say that ARR did a good job at keeping our Tempering status murky with a lean towards the WoL is indeed tempered. Even a little smattering of a hint that the Ascians/Zodiark tried to reach out to us too, but they failed.

Heavensward keeps it murky by using Minfilia as a mouthpiece, wherein she speaks once to us under Hydaelyn's Will and Shackles, and then later with the WoDs as herself, "Set free, because Hydaelyn was finally strong enough to let her go." Ardbert can swing his axe at her, also for murky reasons, because she is not possessed by Hydaelyn at the time. When she uses the power bequeathed to her by Hydaelyn, she stops him effortlessly. Kind of a toss up on his tempering status though, because he is known to have taken his own life, but did so under Ascian auspices and lived on in the state, "Beyond Death."

Stormblood doesn't focus very much at all on Hydaelyn or Zodiark. Merely on the Echo and its relationship to Tempering. Further casting more murk into the marsh we're knee deep in now. It showcases that through the Echo, we could bend Primals' will to our own, if our will is strong enough.

Shadowbringers evinces the fact that Hydaelyn and Zodiark are primals in concrete. An upsetting moment for some. I think they didn't continue the onslaught with outright statement that we are Tempered, but they did beg the question a little more. There haven't been too many big twists in the game as I recall it, and I think they limit themselves to only one or two per storyline so that the focus doesn't shift too much away from the characters.

So I still say it could go either way, but from my perspective the Tempering status of the WoL leans towards, "Yeah, they are man."

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Ifrit's whole line in response to our not being Tempered by his flames.

IFRIT: "Forsooth, thy frail mortal frame can serve as vessel to the blessing of but One. Yet I smell not the taint of another upon thee... The truth of thy allegiance waxeth clear--thou art of the godless blessed's number. The Paragons warned of thine abhorrent kind. Thine existence is not to be suffered.

This implied that Ifrit did not know the truth about us, but was fed false information by the Ascians, who do not view Hydaelyn as a Goddess, only as a blight. It could have also been the Echo, a more likely supposition by some. Keep in mind though, this is also a very weak version of Ifrit, too. He might not have his proper powers of detection.

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...wait, why do you suddenly decide this one part is the result of a lie, when we take every single other thing said both by Ifrit and the priest in this scene as truth? Why is this one part suddenly the thing we don't believe?

That scene is actually the one singular evidence we have that already being tempered is, itself, a defense against tempering. We have never once, in the entire game, seen an attempt. This fact is actually the lynchpin of the entire 'WoL is tempered' theory, too; since the theory presupposes that the real reason were immune to tempering isn't the Echo but the alleged tempering*, we have to consider the one source of this fact to be legitimate.

...so why do we believe him about that one thing, but not every single other thing they say, including the thing that shuts down the theory? Because where I'm standing it just looks like you're picking and choosing the facts you want to be valuable and claiming the evidence against your theory to be nonsense.

*Incidentally, on an unrelated chain, this theory also dismisses Zenos, Arenvald, Fordola, Mikoto and Misija, all of which have the Echo but no Blessing of Light, but who all resisted tempering on at least one occasion (fun fact, Mikoto's the only one that's only done it once). Misija outright says that it's because the Echo is the thing that protects against tempering, with her evidence being Ysayle--but since Ysayle actually did have the Blessing, she's not on the same list. So, yeah, we've actually got a significant amount more instances of 'Echo, no blessing' people resisting tempering than we do people with the Blessing doing the same.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

...wait, why do you suddenly decide this one part is the result of a lie, when we take every single other thing said both by Ifrit and the priest in this scene as truth? Why is this one part suddenly the thing we don't believe?

That scene is actually the one singular evidence we have that already being tempered is, itself, a defense against tempering. We have never once, in the entire game, seen an attempt. This fact is actually the lynchpin of the entire 'WoL is tempered' theory, too; since the theory presupposes that the real reason were immune to tempering isn't the Echo but the alleged tempering*, we have to consider the one source of this fact to be legitimate.
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This is incorrect, the current version of the theory supposed that the tempering protects against the effects of those Primals for whom the Echo wouldn't suffice (read: Zodiark), not that the Echo offers no protection against tempering which it demonstrably does.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

FFXIV starts with a supernatural vision.

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Yes. That’s how our Echo is awoken. A vision. As Elidibus in Shadowbringers explained, she’s always reaching out and calling to those who have awakened to their souls’ memories of Amaurot. But the Echo is not specifically granted by her. Anyone who receives the Echo would mistakenly be considered touched by her like Garuda says, and up until Shadowbringers, everyone thought it was. But I was under the impression that Shadowbringers dispelled the notion that the Echo is tempering.

A disciple of Zodiark, Elidibus, artificially recreates the trigger to awaken the Echo to those who have Amaurotine soul fragments and they all hear Hydaelyn’s pre-recorded message that keeps playing to those who can hear it and they mistakenly believe it’s the goddess and they feel called to action.

But why are these same tired arguments coming back all of the sudden? If everyone who is granted a vision by Hydaelyn or spoken to after getting the Echo is tempered by her, then where does that leave Zenos, Fordola, and Misija, who all have the artificial echo? Or the Sahagin Priest, Saint Ajora, or Ysayle, who all had the Echo and fought against her? Ysayle herself quotes Hydaelyn and references visions granted to her by her. The Ascians all have the Echo and know and can hear Hydaelyn calling. Considering their god is in a coma, why isn't her "tempering" overwriting theirs?

Trying to tie the vision after getting the Echo to being tempered or even to the Blessing doesn't make any sense.


I’m also confused about the rambling on people calling Hydaelyn a goddess, people praying to her, or her calling us “child”. None of that necessarily = tempering.

If anyone is tempered by her, it would be Minfilia when she goes to her. But pre-HW Minfilia, the entire Path of Twelve, the Circle of Knowing, the entire country of Sharlayan, and the Eorzean leaders, all call her a Goddess or at least recognize her as the Mothercrystal, and only those in the Path have the Echo. None of them fully understood what she was prior to Emet-Selch's explanation and as it is in all societies in the face of something powerful to them, many called her a goddess.

In Answers, she calls all of life her children, and she’s not exactly wrong. She controls the lifestream and the flow of souls and is responsible for caretaking and protecting the shattered lives of our era after preventing them from being used as a fuel for a primal spell. Zodiark may have created the new life, but he kind of went deadbeat dad and his followers decided that they can reap his harvest to bring their friends back who had turned into aetherial gasoline already.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

So I still say it could go either way, but from my perspective the Tempering status of the WoL leans towards, "Yeah, they are man."

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It only looks that way if you believe it’s possible to begin with. To me, it’s easier to explain everything in the game without us being tempered and your argument of tempering requires you to go into “news clippings connected by string on a cork board” level of conspiracy theorist.

In the event that we were tempered, it is so low of a tempering and we are granted so much free will to the point it doesn’t even matter so why would it even need to come up in the story? What does being tempered actually add to the narrative except as a justification for all the edgy players upset that their character doesn’t join with Garleans, the Ascians, and Zodiark to go around kicking puppies to make Crystal Mom mad?

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Originally Posted by GoldStarz

This is incorrect, the current version of the theory supposed that the tempering protects against the effects of those Primals for whom the Echo wouldn't suffice (read: Zodiark), not that the Echo offers no protection against tempering which it demonstrably does.

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The argument still holds. Ifrit and his followers in that scene both provide the only mention in the entire game that being tempered protects from other tempering, and the most clear and steadfast evidence that the Warrior of Light is not tempered (namely, that Ifrit can sense tempering and says we're not; first-hand evidence, how about that).

How does this theory hold the former as a gospel truth, while throwing out the latter like yesterday's garbage? Surely, both should be held to an equal standard; either both are true and should be considered as such, or both should be thrown out as invalid evidence. It can't go both ways.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I’m also confused about the rambling on people calling Hydaelyn a goddess, people praying to her, or her calling us “child”. None of that necessarily = tempering.

If anyone is tempered by her, it would be Minfilia when she goes to her. But pre-HW Minfilia, the entire Path of Twelve, the Circle of Knowing, the entire country of Sharlayan, and the Eorzean leaders, all call her a Goddess or at least recognize her as the Mothercrystal, and only those in the Path have the Echo. None of them fully understood what she was prior to Emet-Selch's explanation and as it is in all societies in the face of something powerful to them, many called her a goddess.

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Also, on this subject, it's worth noting that Hydaelyn worship to that degree is actually extremely minor in the game world, and not really held by any external commonality. Not everyone with the Echo worships her; Fordola, Misija, Arenvald and Mikoto never show any indication of believing in her. Not even everyone with the Blessing worships her; Ysayle recognizes that she exists, but DEFINITELY doesn't worship her.

Hydaelyn worship's just a small religion. If you distrust Hydaelyn worship, do you distrust every single religion in the entire game world? Because a huge theme of the game is that doing that is an awful thing that leads to horrible events.

As an aside, whether or not the player character being Tempered is an interesting plot point is in itself entirely subjective. Some people will like the idea, others will dislike it and then there's going to be a third group who are entirely indifferent.

I think it's enough to acknowledge that it could go either way, really.

The writers are ultimately going to tell the story that they want to tell at the end of the day. As for what that may be? Well, we'll find out in a matter of weeks.

At this point, nothing is a certainty but it is looking likely that one way or another both Hydaelyn and Zodiark will be taking their leave of the story as of the conclusion of Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

The argument still holds. Ifrit and his followers in that scene both provide the only mention in the entire game that being tempered protects from other tempering, and the most clear and steadfast evidence that the Warrior of Light is not tempered (namely, that Ifrit can sense tempering and says we're not; first-hand evidence, how about that).

How does this theory hold the former as a gospel truth, while throwing out the latter like yesterday's garbage? Surely, both should be held to an equal standard; either both are true and should be considered as such, or both should be thrown out as invalid evidence. It can't go both ways.



Also, on this subject, it's worth noting that Hydaelyn worship to that degree is actually extremely minor in the game world, and not really held by any external commonality. Not everyone with the Echo worships her; Fordola, Misija, Arenvald and Mikoto never show any indication of believing in her. Not even everyone with the Blessing worships her; Ysayle recognizes that she exists, but DEFINITELY doesn't worship her.

Hydaelyn worship's just a small religion. If you distrust Hydaelyn worship, do you distrust every single religion in the entire game world? Because a huge theme of the game is that doing that is an awful thing that leads to horrible events.

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There's also the fact that they deliberately changed Ifrit's dialogue from 1.0 to ARR.

In 1.0, he thinks that a primal has us in their thrall because he cannot temper us. He says that he smells the taint of another on us and suggests Garuda, Titan, or Leviathan. In response to our confusion he brings up the line used in ARR as well about being warned by the Paragons of the Godless blessed.

In ARR, it's his summoner who brings that up and Ifrit who flat out denies it, saying he smells nothing.

This suggests a change in the greater story from 1.0 to ARR in regards to possible tempering by Hydaelyn.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

There's also the fact that they deliberately changed Ifrit's dialogue from 1.0 to ARR.

In 1.0, he thinks that a primal has us in their thrall because he cannot temper us. He says that he smells the taint of another on us and suggests Garuda, Titan, or Leviathan. In response to our confusion he brings up the line used in ARR as well about being warned by the Paragons of the Godless blessed.

In ARR, it's his summoner who brings that up and Ifrit who flat out denies it, saying he smells nothing.

This suggests a change in the greater story from 1.0 to ARR in regards to possible tempering by Hydaelyn.

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With this, we should take into consideration that the story may have changed more than once. IE that in 1.0 it was tempering, in 2.0 it wasn't, but then later on it was changed back to tempering as the story was reconfigured.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

With this, we should take into consideration that the story may have changed more than once. IE that in 1.0 it was tempering, in 2.0 it wasn't, but then later on it was changed back to tempering as the story was reconfigured.

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SE secretly changing their mind again after already making dialogue changes following Yoshi-P taking over doesn't make a compelling argument for tempering.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

SE secretly changing their mind again after already making dialogue changes following Yoshi-P taking over doesn't make a compelling argument for tempering.

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It's not exactly a secret though. We can see the story changed significantly from ARR to ShB. Really after 3.0 was when the presentation of Hydaelyn shifted away from true goddess towards primal.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

It's not exactly a secret though. We can see the story changed significantly from ARR to ShB. Really after 3.0 was when the presentation of Hydaelyn shifted away from true goddess towards primal.

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Making that argument essentially means any argument is meaningless, since the writers can retcon (change their minds about) any given thing in the story at any juncture. There are a lot of things in dialogue that don't necessarily fit with what we're told later down the line (like Lahabrea calling the Echo a "bothersome anomaly within the aether," when the reality explained later is that it's a form of ancestral memory he should absolutely be aware of. Which is true?).

Point is, we have to take what's been told / explained to us in-game as truth until we get "revelations" (retcons) that contradict what came before. As it stands Ifrit and his priest's account of the PC's tempering status is the only concrete information we have; everything else is interpretation. As such we have to operate on the assumption the PC is not tempered by Hydaelyn (or any other primal for that matter) until it's proved that's the case, since things are false until proven true (not the other way around). Making a conspiracy theorist string corkboard, and then claiming your ideas are obviously the truth because they can't be disproven, doesn't exactly make a compelling argument (Re: Russell's teapot).

... in my opinion, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

It's not exactly a secret though. We can see the story changed significantly from ARR to ShB. Really after 3.0 was when the presentation of Hydaelyn shifted away from true goddess towards primal.

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Yeah. There's also suspicious comments made by Lakshmi in regards to the Warrior of Light's soul being 'Stained'. Which may or may not imply that the Warrior of Light is Tempered. Especially since 'Stained' is, I believe, the rough translation of Tempering in the Japanese localisation. Add to that recent knowledge of an actual cure for Tempering combined with the frequent display of various degrees of Tempering severity then I don't believe it to be a farfetched theory in the slightest.

Furthermore, even if the Warrior of Light is not Tempered at present then that doesn't mean that it won't be a possible threat in the future, especially if Hydaelyn tries to compel the Warrior of Light to do something that he does not want to do. Which could involve something entirely well meaning but sinister - such as a second Sundering or attempting to compel the Warrior of Light to serve as the new heart of Hydaelyn.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

It's not exactly a secret though. We can see the story changed significantly from ARR to ShB. Really after 3.0 was when the presentation of Hydaelyn shifted away from true goddess towards primal.

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Did it really though? I would use the world "evolved" but not straight up "changed". "Changed" implies that they clearly had a specific direction they had for the game that it is no longer going in and retcons are needed in order to rectify where the story will end up. I was also under the impression they had the very end figured out, but not how to get there and we've been meandering around on the way.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Yeah. There's also suspicious comments made by Lakshmi in regards to the Warrior of Light's soul being 'Stained'. Which may or may not imply that the Warrior of Light is Tempered. Especially since 'Stained' is, I believe, the rough translation of Tempering in the Japanese localisation. Add to that recent knowledge of an actual cure for Tempering combined with the frequent display of various degrees of Tempering severity then I don't believe it to be a farfetched theory in the slightest.

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That is not correct. In the Japanese version of the game, they use 「テンパード」 which is the English word "tempered" in katakana.

In regards to Lakshmi, she says "your souls are stained" in the middle of battle with absolutely no context. She also says "Do your souls not weigh heavy?" and "rest your weary souls in my bosom". Not exactly eureka material on figuring out whether we're tempered or not. On the other hand, Ifrit full on references tempering, corrects his own disciple on the matter, and had his dialogue changed with the new writing direction of ARR to change his stance on the subject.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

That is not correct. In the Japanese version of the game, they use 「テンパード」 which is the English word "tempered" in katakana.

In regards to Lakshmi, she says "your souls are stained" in the middle of battle with absolutely no context. She also says "Do your souls not weigh heavy?" and "rest your weary souls in my bosom". Not exactly eureka material on figuring out whether we're tempered or not. On the other hand, Ifrit full on references tempering, corrects his own disciple on the matter, and had his dialogue changed with the new writing direction of ARR to change his stance on the subject.

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Yeah, it is pretty clear in context that Lakshmi isn't exactly thinking deep and talking about something external to what her whole scene is about. Lakshmi, as the absolute most temper-happy primal (the one that knocked Ifrit to second place), basically spends every second of her screen presence selling the concept that it's super cool to live under her control. Your souls aren't 'heavy and weary' because you're already tempered, they're 'heavy and weary' because you've spent all this time thinking and acting for yourself, when you could just... not.


And there's actually been a lot of stuff that just quietly changed in the shift from 1.0 to 2.0 without any direct acknowledgement, as a result of the change in development team, it's not just Ifrit; remember Silvertear Lake which has never been important in the live game, Thaumaturge previously having access to light and dark spells, Gelmorra actually being considered in any way important, Allag practically being a footnote...

In the meantime, there's actually never been any outright rewrites or 'no, that was wrong' retcons in the live game. There is the debatable angle of Lahabrea's big Praetorium speech about Zodiark and Hydaelyn being... kinda off from what we learned is true in Shadowbringers, but even that isn't actually wrong, just a little weirdly drawn. And there's also the Emmerololth situation, but that's not one we can't square (and still one they can resolve).

There has never been any inclination to completely rewrite established fact in the live game, and trying to use 'but maybe they did with this one thing' frankly just reads like grasping at straws to believe a favorite pet theory is true despite evidence.

...and incidentally, still nobody's really been able to answer an important question: what would this add? What does this do for the story beyond being a kinda cheap gotcha?

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

...wait, why do you suddenly decide this one part is the result of a lie, when we take every single other thing said both by Ifrit and the priest in this scene as truth? Why is this one part suddenly the thing we don't believe?

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Why? Because we're clearly not godless. We have Hydaelyn. You yourself have said numerous times that we cannot completely trust information given to us by the Ascians, so why should we trust secondhand info from Ifrit who is speaking with knowledge learned from them? In other words, the priest may have been correct on top of Ifrit who doesn't even know that he's correct. That's what I want to highlight. They don't actually know why we resisted Tempering, but those are their best explanations.


Let's go over what the Echo actually is, because that has some bearing on the situation at hand. It's likely more interesting to you than tempering theory, but I'll get back to that.

You might know in Japanese The Echo is actually a phrase meaning, "Transcendent Power." We've been given the truth of its origin, at least mostly. It's a power that comes from the soul and relates to them greatly. As we currently understand it, anyone with The Echo is possessed of an ancient soul that corresponds to Amaurotine society. While we don't have all of the details, we know that these souls are particularly robust with a specialness to them that allows individuals possessed of them all sorts of powers.

The most important power we've been shown is the fact that if one masters the Echo then they can resist the pull of the Lifestream, and avoid being sent to the Aetherial Sea to await rebirth, upon the death of their physical body. They may also then possess another's body, overriding the body and soul of a living being. While inside of a physical body they may resist primal influence, but outside of a physical body they are a ready supply of aether for the primal to absorb, per the Leviathan/Sahagin Priest cutscene.

What this means is that souls with The Echo are souls with agency. They can resist the "natural" cycle. They can co-opt any soul weaker than themselves, or any soul without agency. It's not ever stated, but I surmise that the reason primals may do the same(except for resisting death) is because they are large embodiments of the wills of many souls given form, and at the very least have the ability to interact with souls themselves.

Hydaelyn and Zodiark are a bit different. We know for a fact that they have Amaurotines, those imbued with the Echo, at their cores. According to Hades there is no resisting such power, and he along with the Convocation were tempered. The cave paintings in Qitana Ravel show the same for Hydaelyn's faction. By this we learned that even our adamantine soul is not immune, only staggeringly resistant.

While it wasn't shown on screen, we do know of one example of Tempered beings that's up in the air. The Beastmen and Dragons used in the Telo Towers. The story very much glosses over the fact that most of those captured were of tribes already tempered. We surely didn't get the Tempering cure around that fast, as the towers came about while we struggled to free one Kobold patriarch, so how are the towers doing this? They seemingly Temper beings to Garlemald itself. For the Garleans and resistance soldiers it's no big deal, but for those that already summon primals? Those already tempered to primals? Those Lunar primals and the Meracydian dragons? They fight for the Telophoroi and summon for the Telophoroi. At a minimum the towers are new, so certainly not beholden to the old "rules" but by being that way they throw the old into the air, dashing what we know against the rocks as so much dust into the wind. Except for, they haven't overcome a soul with agency, yet.

What all this means and demonstrates is that the story is rather more inconclusive at every turn than it ever is concrete. Every time they hammer down a nail, another pops out of the other side of the board. The Amal'jaa Priest says something that is seemingly true, we belong to Hydaelyn. Unreliable Ifrit makes another assertion, which many have embraced as correct for years in spite of the phrase, "Godless Blessed" being an oxy-moron. But over the years we learn that we resist Ifrit's Tempering, because we have a stronger will and a soul with agency. If Ifrit were on Hydaelyn or Zodiark's level, then he could have tempered us.

While you've been caught up with those words being law, I have been preoccupied with the actions of the story. I may very well still be wrong, but all I'm asserting is that the possibility of the WoL having been Tempered still stands open, and it will remain open until the story closes it.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Why? Because we're clearly not godless. We have Hydaelyn. You yourself have said numerous times that we cannot completely trust information given to us by the Ascians, so why should we trust secondhand info from Ifrit who is speaking with knowledge learned from them?

[And a lot of other words]

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Okay, so instead of trying to go point-by-point, I want to really focus on this, because I think we're ultimately seeing the story very differently.

To put it briefly: I don't think we are playing a story that lies to our face. Those stories exist, and they can work, but I've never once gotten the idea that FFXIV is one of them. However, despite that, FFXIV is full of people that lie. Mostly villains, but sometimes even those we're aligned with do, too (hello, Crystal Exarch).

So what does that mean, how do we balance a story we can trust with characters we can't? Well, what I think it means is that everything works to tell us something, even if what we're being told isn't direct truth. Sure, sometimes it's not saying something useful; sometimes a scene just exists to tell us Tataru is bad at magic. But basically, even a lie should be telling us the truth, just obliquely. Take Urianger telling us the 'vision of the future' which is really just a lie of context about the Black Rose Calamity; even without Urianger literally seeing it, it still underlines that there's doom on the horizon if we fail, and tells us exactly what kind of doom it is.

So, let's apply that logic to the Ifrit scene, specifically the exchange between Ifrit and the priest. What do we learn from that exchange between them, first under the assumption that lies are not being told. And for extra points, let's annotate a fact that only comes up here or if it's something that comes up elsewhere.

• That you can't get tempered if already tempered. (Exclusive info)
• That specifically, it's because a single soul isn't big enough for two of them. (Exclusive info)
• That a primal can be smarter than their master (new info at the time, later seen in Ramuh)
• That Ifrit can smell tempering, but doesn't smell it on us. (Exclusive info)
• That we are of 'the godless blessed's number' (just a new name for the Echo which we already understood we had, and not one used again)
• That the Ascians provoked all this (already established and will be slathered on rather liberally later on)

It's actually a pretty informationally dense exchange! Or at least, it is if they're right. Let's amend the list with the assumption that they were being lied to and the WoL actually is tempered, and see what we leave that scene with now. We're now looking at this scene eight years on, so we know pretty well what gets built on regardless of the accuracy of the words themselves, so we can be reasonably confident about what's still true despite the literal words being lies.

• That you can't get tempered if already tempered. (Exclusive info) No longer trustworthy intel.
  
• That specifically, it's because a single soul isn't big enough for two of them. (Exclusive info) Again, no longer trustworthy intel.
  
• That a primal can be smarter than their master (new info at the time, later seen in Ramuh) Ifrit may actually be stupider than the priest now, since the priest might still be technically correct for all we know. The base fact is still right, but we no longer have early evidence.
  
• That Ifrit can smell tempering, but doesn't smell it on us. (Exclusive info) The one time he did this was now him failing to do so.
• That we are of 'the godless blessed's number' (just a new name for the Echo which we already understood we had, and not one used again)
• That the Ascians provoked all this (already established and will be slathered on rather liberally later on)

I would have added alternative details if they were uncovered, but... well, far as I can tell, I can't see them. We end up striking every exclusive piece of information from the record, as well as a fact subtly established here, only leaving the instance when it's outright stated. (In fact, we remove all of Ifrit's intellectual prowess by way of him now being incorrect, which I don't like, because I enjoy that despite appearances Ifrit knows his stuff.) And in return we get... nothing. If we assume these guys were lied to, then this scene no longer has reason to exist.

I don't think they'd write an exchange that exists only to divulge new information, only to later say that all of that information was wrong.

So I'm going to repeat my question: What would this add? Right now, I'm only seeing it take away and provide a cheap gotcha, so I'd really like to know, what end does someone who thinks this is true expect to see from this? Is it just to get pretense to fight a blue rock?

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

But basically, even a lie should be telling us the truth, just obliquely.

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A lie can also exist to expound on a character or showcase the limits of their knowledge.

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That you can't get tempered if already tempered.

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There is no reason to consider this false.

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That specifically, it's because a single soul isn't big enough for two of them.

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With what we know now, it's because a soul can't be aspected towards multiple different wavelengths of aether at the same time.

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That a primal can be smarter than their master

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That Ifrit can smell tempering, but doesn't smell it on us.

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The knowledge or limits thereof of the Primals has long been a point of contention. For example, an often used reasoning for excusing Hydaelyn lying to the player when revealing the "truth" about the world is that she is merely a Primal, and therefore is simply following the limits of her programing and what information she was imbued with when summoned.

Additionally, Ifrit's statements neither suggest he's more or less intelligent than his summoner, what Ifrit says doesn't directly contradict what the summoner says. He describes tempering as "a blessing", says he doesn't smell the taint of another upon WoL, then says WoL must be one of the "godless blessed" the Ascians warned about. In truth the only "contradiction", his lack of detection, is merely due to the limits of his perception. Hydaelyn is aspected to Light, rather than to the elements like the rest of the Eorzean Primals. Indeed, the Primals are all also Astrally attuned (hence the 7th Calamity of all elements attuned to Darkness), so seeing someone that is not only not aspected to any of the elements, but is further aspected to Light, would be beyond comprehension. And his two statements sandwiching this, that tempering is a blessing and WoL is one of the godless blessed, is further easily explained when considering that at the time Hydaelyn was not a "god" like the Primals were. She was conceptualized as the Lifestream, the will of the planet, the great crystal residing at the heart of the world like in many other FF games. But now, we know she is a god, of the same sort we're already so familiar with, a Primal. In this conception of the story, the blessing Ifrit ascribes to the Primals and that of Hydaelyn lacks a real distinction, the two are akin.

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That we are of 'the godless blessed's number' (just a new name for the Echo which we already understood we had, and not one used again)

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The Blessing of Light is not the Echo. The two provide independent resistance to tempering, and given Ifrit describes it as a "blessing", we can assume he's talking about the Blessing rather than the Echo.

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So I'm going to repeat my question: What would this add? Right now, I'm only seeing it take away and provide a cheap gotcha, so I'd really like to know, what end does someone who thinks this is true expect to see from this? Is it just to get pretense to fight a blue rock?

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It seems, to me, that the narrative is moving towards conflict with Hydaelyn. In the ancient past Azem did not side with the summoning of Hydaelyn and join her faction, but in the modern day WoL was chosen by Hydaelyn to serve as champion of her cause. The question of WoL's potential tempering to Hydaelyn has been raised multiple times, but the story has always danced away from giving a definitive answer. One of the few set-in-stone character traits of WoL, as expressed by both sides of their psyche in the DRK quests, is an extreme fear that they are merely a tool to be used, a "Weapon of Light", a fear that is especially telling when you consider that both Fray and Myste seem to have knowledge of WoL's Ancient heritage. The entire situation with Minfilia being roped into giving up her life for Hydaelyn, Hydaelyn outright lying to the player, Ardbert losing it at Hydaelyn ignoring their pleas for so long only to be told that some need to serve her, the twisted nature of Minfilia having to bodysnatch girls on the First and the perception of WoL or Ryne or both of Hydaelyn seeking control over people, the reveal that Hydaelyn is a Primal like all the others and her summoning destroyed the world - I don't think we can look at all this and reasonably say that Hydaelyn will just remain some kind of good-natured, protective figure on WoL's side through to the end of the story.

With the way Endwalker is set up, everything is looking to be a reenactment of the Final Days and the end of the Ancients 2.0. The conflict is repeating itself, and when it played out before Hydaelyn wasn't the key to ending the apocalypse, she was merely intended to provide a more permanent solution afterwards, one that WoL in the past didn't agree with. Now after 12,000 years half the shards have been rejoined, the problem is restarting again, so why am I to think that in the end Hydaelyn won't try to do the same thing again and resunder the Source once more, this time without any of the Unsundered around to undo it? Moreover, I believe that the story has strongly, strongly been suggesting that WoL will need to join not with Hydaelyn, but with Zodiark in order to stop the Final Days, which means that WoL will be in direct conflict with Hydaelyn on the entire purpose of her existence, while undoubtedly being morally opposed to the destruction of the Source once more. This, then, spells confrontation. And on a meta-narrative level FF14 has always heavily been about casting down false gods, Yoshida has been working on FF16 which is about "ending the legacy of the crystals", and I shouldn't need to tell you the reputation of JRPGs and killing the seemingly benevolent god at the end.

Let me ask you, what would the opposite direction for Hydaelyn add to the story? Another plot like 2.0, where the benevolent protector goddess sacrifices herself to shield the hero and defeat the darkness? Where do you think the plot is going that all of the concerns which have been raised about her over the years are answered in a peaceful and reasonable manner? What is Hydaelyn's ultimate conclusion, and what does it bring of worth to the table?

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Originally Posted by Veloran

The knowledge or limits thereof of the Primals has long been a point of contention. For example, an often used reasoning for excusing Hydaelyn lying to the player when revealing the "truth" about the world is that she is merely a Primal, and therefore is simply following the limits of her programing and what information she was imbued with when summoned.

Additionally, Ifrit's statements neither suggest he's more or less intelligent than his summoner, what Ifrit says doesn't directly contradict what the summoner says. He describes tempering as "a blessing", says he doesn't smell the taint of another upon WoL, then says WoL must be one of the "godless blessed" the Ascians warned about. In truth the only "contradiction", his lack of detection, is merely due to the limits of his perception. Hydaelyn is aspected to Light, rather than to the elements like the rest of the Eorzean Primals. Indeed, the Primals are all also Astrally attuned (hence the 7th Calamity of all elements attuned to Darkness), so seeing someone that is not only not aspected to any of the elements, but is further aspected to Light, would be beyond comprehension. And his two statements sandwiching this, that tempering is a blessing and WoL is one of the godless blessed, is further easily explained when considering that at the time Hydaelyn was not a "god" like the Primals were. She was conceptualized as the Lifestream, the will of the planet, the great crystal residing at the heart of the world like in many other FF games. But now, we know she is a god, of the same sort we're already so familiar with, a Primal. In this conception of the story, the blessing Ifrit ascribes to the Primals and that of Hydaelyn lacks a real distinction, the two are akin.

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I'm not sure what you're reading but Ifrit contradicts his summoner and says he's wrong in the text. Alexander wants to end his own existence because he knows he's sucking aether from Hydaelyn and knows a perfect world exists only without him, so he kills his own summoner. Ramuh goes against the wishes of his own summoners and allows himself to go away once judging us worthy instead of torching Gridania. He even talks about delivering the world from "Dark" with a capital "D", despite the fact that it's the Ascians who brought about his creation. One of the crystals that grants the Blessing of Light was also given to the Slyphs as a gift by Ramuh before being given to us. He speaks in a completely different manner than the Sylphs and brings up things they wouldn't know like Dark and Light being one before man existed.

Here's what Koji Fox had to say regarding Ramuh:

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Fernehalwes: “It’s a little bit different from the other beast tribes. In the other tribes, they worship the primal so they summon it, then the primal goes, ‘I want more thralls!’ But Ramuh is a bit more laid back. He doesn’t want to control everyone and create a dominion where it’s just Ramuh and his followers. He’s a man of reason, he’s a judge.

But the thing is, the Sylphs are a little bit crazy. Some of the Sylphs want a strong leader. They look at the other beast tribes and they see that they’re strong because they’ve been tempered or they’ve been drowned, and that gives them that connection with their primal. So you have sylphs that want that same thing. So some sylphs go to Ramuh and ask him to temper them, and he does. But the thing is, Ramuh doesn’t force it on other sylphs. So you have a group of sylphs who aren’t worried about summoning Ramuh and just want to live in peace and then there’s the other ones who believe they have to temper more sylphs.”

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Also, somehow the Primals wouldn't be able to detect specific attunements? Is that actually said anywhere in the game or are you conjecturing? And, if we were going to be tempered in the end, why didn't they just leave the 1.0 dialogue in the game instead of changing it?

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Originally Posted by Veloran

The Blessing of Light is not the Echo. The two provide independent resistance to tempering, and given Ifrit describes it as a "blessing", we can assume he's talking about the Blessing rather than the Echo.

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Just because Ifrit mentions blessings and what we get is called the Blessing of Light, doesn't necessarily mean they're the same thing. Nowhere at all is it said that the Blessing of Light gives resistance to tempering. There's also the fact that they both work completely differently. According to the game, the more tempered people a primal has, the more powerful they are. In the opposite direction, the Warriors of Darkness give their Blessings back to Hydaelyn in order to make her stronger.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I'm not sure what you're reading but Ifrit contradicts his summoner and says he's wrong in the text.

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He actually doesn't. Again, he says it's true that WoL can only have the blessing of one, that he can't detect the taint of another, and then he says that WoL is one of the "godless blessed". This isn't strictly saying his summoner is wrong, he is insisting that WoL has a blessing that rejects his own, but Ifrit doesn't recognize it as a god.

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Alexander wants to end his own existence because he knows he's sucking aether from Hydaelyn and knows a perfect world exists only without him, so he kills his own summoner. Ramuh goes against the wishes of his own summoners and allows himself to go away once judging us worthy instead of torching Gridania.

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I'm not sure about the relevance of these examples? I agree that it can often seem like Primals have deeper knowledge than their origins might first suggest, but I'm not seeing what you're implying.

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Also, somehow the Primals wouldn't be able to detect specific attunements?

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I'm not saying he necessarily wouldn't, I'm just saying that by default the blessing of Hydaelyn is very different from that of all the Eorzean Primals.

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And, if we were going to be tempered in the end, why didn't they just leave the 1.0 dialogue in the game instead of changing it?

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As I said before, it's pretty clear that the story has been changed and iterated upon multiple times as it's been developed. It appears to me that at the time of 2.0's development, Hydaelyn was intended to be a legitimate world-crystal, as has appeared in various other FF games.

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Just because Ifrit mentions blessings and what we get is called the Blessing of Light, doesn't necessarily mean they're the same thing. Nowhere at all is it said that the Blessing of Light gives resistance to tempering.

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It does suggest he was referring to the Blessing of Light rather than the Echo.

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According to the game, the more tempered people a primal has, the more powerful they are. In the opposite direction, the Warriors of Darkness give their Blessings back to Hydaelyn in order to make her stronger.

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They don't exactly "give them back", Hydaelyn was just given a bunch of aether stored in the crystals. WoL did it as well, and the Blessing was retained.

I think people are looking at the subject too narrowly.

We know the Echo protects against tempering; that's been empirically demonstrated with numerous other sources. That said Hydaelyn tempering the PC is predicated on the argument that "Hydaelyn is more powerful than typical primals, so (maybe) she can overpower the Echo like Zodiark (maybe)."

Can she, though? Even at her apex Hydaelyn wasn't anywhere near as powerful as Zodiark (a small council vs. half of Amaurot's population), and she's only grown weaker as time has gone on (empirically demonstrated with Matoya's Crystal Eye - an ancient Crystal of Light). Is it possible Hydaelyn can overpower the Echo? Sure, it's possible. Given her power is almost completely exhausted even before the start of the game... I'm not so sure she can. I mean, Zenos' grand master plan falls apart if that's the case...

Second, there's no reason to believe the Echo's immunity to tempering means we're incapable of receiving Hydaelyn's blessing; the blessing is not necessarily tempering, in other words. Ifrit's dialogue is phrased in such a way as he considers tempering "blessing," and Hades' EX dialogue supports this idea ("We are the blessed! We are the chosen!"), but there's no reason to believe a primal couldn't bestow power upon a mortal without tempering them. Most primals just wouldn't do such a thing, since there's no benefit in it for them and the vast majority of summoned primals in the modern day use summoning arts designed to play up the worst aspects of the summoned creation, but not only is Hydaelyn from before then she is very unusual in regards to primals in the sense that she freely gives of her power to help mortals.

Third, there's no clear point at which the PC is tempered. They implicitly awaken to the Echo on the carriage ride in, do good deeds in the starting capital, get the Water Crystal and get talked at by her for the first time, and then go on the whirlwind adventure of 2.0 fighting primals and Imperials. Tempering is kind of a big deal; when exactly did that happen? And if the Blessing of Light is "just" tempering, why is Midgardsormr able to seal it away? Could he have cured tempering all along? If so why didn't he help Tiamat (and other tempered victims on Hydaelyn's order)? Were we acting fully under our own will then and not before? Did restoring the blessing restore the tempering? Wouldn't we have noticed? Why do the Ascians specifically refer to it as the "Blessing of Light," and never tempering (or a consequence thereof)?

Last... there are numerous instances of Hydaelyn's blessed chosen defying her will, as has been pointed out before. Ysayle consorts with the Ascians and summons a primal. The Warriors of Darkness consort with the Ascians and attempt to usher in another Calamity. Saint Ajora summoned Ultima, an immensely powerful and dangerous primal. In all those instances compelling those people to not do those things would very much be in Hydaelyn's interests, yet her chosen champions stray from her path and consort with Darkness.

Again, that's not to say Hydaelyn is unwilling or incapable of tempering, but all the evidence of such regarding the PC is circumstantial, and thus the case isn't terribly strong. In my opinion.

Remember, the following is always technically true:

https://i.gifer.com/HLRp.gif

Hydaelyn's account of the origin of her conflict with Zodiark conflicts with Emet-Selch's... but the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive with some imagination. Even then, we haven't heard her side of the story yet (something Yoshi-P himself has noted; look forward to it in Endwalker, probably), and without that I personally feel saying "She lied to us and must be put to the sword for it" is seriously jumping the gun. The very worst she's been portrayed is as a cosmic level Urianger: deceitful but well-intentioned. Compelling anyone to do anything doesn't fit her character as it's been established.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Can she, though?

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We neither know what the threshold to overpower the Echo would need to be, nor whether it's based on "power" in a general sense to begin with. For example, Zodiark was far more powerful than Hydaelyn, but the Ancient's Echoes were far more powerful than WoL's Echo.

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but there's no reason to believe a primal couldn't bestow power upon a mortal without tempering them.

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Do we have any examples of this being the case?

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Tempering is kind of a big deal; when exactly did that happen?

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If it's a subtle form of tempering, I doubt anyone would be able to tell.

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Last... there are numerous instances of Hydaelyn's blessed chosen defying her will, as has been pointed out before.

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And as has similarly been pointed out before, it may be that her tempering isn't actively controlling anybody. It's been building for years now that tempering comes in many different forms and some are all but undetectable.

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The very worst she's been portrayed is as a cosmic level Urianger: deceitful but well-intentioned. Compelling anyone to do anything doesn't fit her character as it's been established.

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Well-intentioned maybe, but not just deceitful. I fail to understand how you can say that compelling people to follow her will isn't in her character when A, she draws every Echo-user into following her cause without telling them the truth the moment they awaken it, B, she has given explicit commands in the past for her followers to carry out, and C, she forcibly sundered the entire world against the will of the majority of the Ancients. In particular with that last one, it shows a willingness to disregard people's lives for the sake of her mission.