The trouble with telling tanks W2W pulls are a mandatory norm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

The first big pull after the second boss in Hells' Lid could be kinda spicy if you weren't ready for it.

---

I'd add that I saw various parties stumble and wipe on the giant wall-to-wall between the second and final bosses of Anamnesis Anyder when it was the current level 80 dungeon, too.

This is why I liked Anamnesis Anyder.. made people slow down an appreciate the dungeon and the design.. with players having to wait for the single group mobs to come to them...

Plus it was funny seeing all the gotta go fast crowd screaming like little children because they had to wait in a dungeon instead of blitzing it

The dance-offs while waiting for Bismark to land at the beginning were always great.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

The dance-offs while waiting for Bismark to land at the beginning were always great.

---

I still always quip "Thank you for choosing Uber; please remember to tip and review your whale." at that point on those rare occasions that level 80 roulette dumps me into there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flashock

As a new player,(ex wow) currently lvl 70 PLD, I was quite curious what the tanking meta would be.

My initial question was, how does the community react to kite tanking. Will they be upset if I pull mobs out of their ground aoe.

I then realized it’s not kiting per-say, it’s called Wall to Wall.

That being said, if it’s my first time in a dungeon, I simply don’t know when the next wall will be, where the packs are, or if any packs spawn randomly.

I do try to go as fast as the group allows though and pull multiple packs when I can.

Looking forward to learning the dungeons better so that I can start doing wall to wall.

---

What is important to remember when coming from other MMOs is that FFXIV has:
* Long global cooldown - so doing chain pulling e.g. starting to move to next pack when current one is almost dead is bad, DPS will hate you as they will try to do skills only to get them interrupted
* Melee positionals - bosses should not be rotated if not needed. If you have to rotate for mechanics then best approach is keep the boss in new position if he will rotate himself soon for another mech otherwise face him north away from party again.
* Some player AoE skills are cones, so the more tightly packed the mobs the better and if possible they should not be dragged too much when dodging aoes.
* AoE skills are guaranted to reach optimal efficiency for all jobs at 5+ mobs which usually means at least two packs of trash

Honestly my main complaint with this really is tanks that can't make their minds up.
Like they're unsure if they're going to do a big pull or not, then I put down Doton or pop CD's and they start sprinting.

Tanks just jumping in and causing me to enter combat before I have a chance to do/ refresh Huiton and Hide is also annoying altho that's mainly a thing in raids and trials.
But yeah make up your minds.
Often times they'll pull then stand there for like 5-10 seconds and then decide that they want to pull another pack.

I have quite a lot of alts so of course I end up masquerading as a sprout because that tag is character based not account based.

Many times I have done a dungeon and right away the tank went insane with massive pulls. These tanks can be very difficult to keep alive but I can handle it because I am far from being a novice healer. However the tank does not know this. I have a sprout icon next to my name. I look like a new player. And yet they instantly pull as if I'm not a sprout and have my full job kit to work with. Worse again when both the dps are also sprouts and their dps isn't as good as someone more experienced with the game so mana can become an issue due to the length of combat.

I never commend these tanks because I know an actual sprout healer would have found them horrible to heal if not impossible due to their lack of experience. I'm not saying never chain pull, but if you have a sprout healer with you take it easy on the first pull, see how they play, and from there you can decide whether to pull more or not. A lot of players are turned off by healing because they end up with tanks who expect them to play like an experienced player when they're still new to the role.

One of the problems with healing is you can't smash a dummy to prepare yourself for content. The only way to learn how to heal is to be in a party that takes damage. So it's very discouraging for novice healers when the tank forces them into a very high pressure environment when they don't have enough experience to draw from to deal with it. And often even if they do successfully heal without any deaths they found it so stressful they are slow to heal again. I have seen this happen so many times in both WoW and FF. So many players who would be amazing healers drop the role because tanks demanded a level of performance far beyond their current experience. Sure players can only improve if they are challenged, but there comes a point in which the degree of difficulty they're faced with does more harm than good.

So again I say; if you're a tank and your healer is a sprout just take it easy on the first pull. See how well they handle it and from there decide how you should pull. If you want more healers in the game don't put the sprouts through hell.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

So, with the exception of a handful of dungeons;

- Aurum Vale (just the first room)
- Brayflox Longstop (just a ton of adds here)
- Stone Vigil (You just get hit hard as hell)
- Dzemael Darkhold (After first boss)
- Bardams Mettle (First Pull, Bird Pull, but this can be done still)
- Doma Castle (First Pull if you wall to wall; if you wall to wall after the first boss)
- Holminster Switch (get hit hard as hell)
- Mount Gulg (if you do the champion pulls)

(I may have missed one or two situations/dungeons here. You also can overcome some of these situations if you have a competent team)

You can wall to wall pull in this game. Full stop. I don't really understand why folks wanna sit here and tell people otherwise. Oh man, 8 out of 77 dungeons you cant do this in! We might as well make everyone stop!

---

[passive aggressive post that not-so-subtly insults you by pointing out your 'superiority' over the 'common' folk and shows the true face of the poster]

now that we have that out of the way:
you can w2w brayflox as well unless you try to pick the full room, while the dzemael and mt gulg pull are definitely possible but require a decent, somewhat coordinated group

I've been healing Wall-to-Wall pulls when the dungeons were both new and old since 2.4 when I joined. It's possible, even if the tank's gear is not great. As a tank, you're still pressing the same buttons, you're just doing more damage. You're just wasting time in a dungeon by not doing this.

This is pretty much of a case of needing to improve at your job, healer, tank and DPS.

Nice to see the forum superstars are still popping in to tell us all we need to get gud.

Meanwhile in the real world of DF.......

Should just have a note in Hall of the Novice that you're expected to pull 2 packs for 1-50 and wall to wall after.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Oh man, looks like you can't say anything contrary to the OP without their feelings being hurt. Oh well, I'll jump out of this safe space. Enjoy your single pulls & enjoy the box you trap yourself in by saying you can't do this, can't do that. DUngon2hard

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...67/unknown.png

---

Who said my feelings are hurt? For the record though, I have no trouble tanking as I've been doing it in MMO's for over 15 years. I get frustrated when I'm not the tank, not when I am.
I've also said, several times already that experienced groups can pull big. If you're going to have a little tantrum, at least understand why you're having it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Don't make responses that sound like: "oh, here come the forum pros trying to tell me that I'm wrong!", when people are saying valid responses to you. That is, if you don't want to be perceived this way.

---

---

Not every reply in this thread is a direct response to me personally. That's why in the post you got so triggered by I used the word Us, not I. The point, you so spectacularly managed to miss because you got triggered, is that the git gud response is not especially helpful. It doesn't matter how easy you personally find tanking, because that isn't the point, what matters is players who can't handle W2W think they have to and we all wipe. Comprende? If you could take 5 minutes away from humble bragging, or trying to score internet points you might understand the point of the entire discussion.
My point about the real world of the DF is these forums, in no way represent what actually happens in game. It's like a completely different universe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

As someone who has tanked for 15 years, you should know that tanking in this game is incredibly brain dead, minus the few instances I mentioned in a previous post. We're on the same page on some things; experienced groups can overcome some of the 'harder' things.

My problem is the narrative being pushed that wall to wall is problematic, can't be done, shouldn't be done, etc, just because they happened to do it in one of the places that you CAN'T. The places you can do W2W far outnumber those that you can't.

---

Sigh, try keeping up, please. It's easy with a well geared (preferably level sync'd) group of experienced players. It is significantly more problematic with a minimum ilevel bunch of sprouts. The problem with telling everyone how easy it is and how it's effectively mandatory is those said sprouts then sprint off to W2W pull when they can't handle it and we all get to wipe. I've been leveling DPS jobs recently and it gets a quite old watching the sproutling tank sprint off as I can just tell what's about to happen.

why the f do we care so much about w2w pulls?
--- been playing since HW so of course i w2w pull, it is not problem to me

but i do not expect everyone to be like me. i would not recommend anyone to be like me because i am uncool and unpleasant
--- and not using duty finder is option if someone absolutely, truly, vehemently, ultimately, invariably cannot below average people in their grab bag group

seem simple deduction to me: "i want my tomes fast from roulette, so i use duty finder, and once in blue moon get matched with people who wanna do things... differently"
"but those relatively fast tomes are worth more to me than my sanity so duty finder it is for me baby!"

relative here meaning it takes more time to make pf for tome farming, because no one does that
and no one times two joins pf for tome farming obliging you to have bis and speerunning experience (of dumdum dungeon) and whatever nonsense
because no one does that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Thank you for stating what I already said.

---

ah, my bad, I only just wanted to clarify the dzemael one really, tbh

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Artemiz

Nice to see the forum superstars are still popping in to tell us all we need to get gud.

Meanwhile in the real world of DF.......

---

I'd rather have sprout tanks try to wall to wall everything and see how if they can do it than single pullers, because you don't even need a tank if you're gonna do that
same goes for healing, too /shrug

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rinhi

ah, my bad, I only just wanted to clarify the dzemael one really, tbh



I'd rather have sprout tanks try to wall to wall everything and see how if they can do it than single pullers, because you don't even need a tank if you're gonna do that
same goes for healing, too /shrug

---

There is a middle ground between W2W and single pulls though, especially in ARR. If the tank pulls 2 packs and the healer nudges them to pull a little bigger I would say that's healthy encouragement. Going from 0-100 isn't a particularly fruitful learning curve. 0-30-60-100 will almost always lead to a better learning environment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Artemiz

There is a middle ground between W2W and single pulls though, especially in ARR. If the tank pulls 2 packs and the healer nudges them to pull a little bigger I would say that's healthy encouragement. Going from 0-100 isn't a particularly fruitful learning curve. 0-30-60-100 will almost always lead to a better learning environment.

---

sure, I agree there, but then again I'd rather have a 0-100 than a 0-10, which was basically my experience when I played healer for the first time all the way to 80 - though the same could be said about playing a DPS as well
people will just carry your bad, detrimental playstyle because it's seen as bad to give someone tips and advice because the struggling/bad player 'didn't ask for it' which is true, but on the other hand isn't, I don't know what word I'd use for it, healthy? constructive? for the community/playerbase, to foster this kind of mindset, to coddle the bad players and not even trying to help them because 'they don't want help', y'know?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rinhi

sure, I agree there, but then again I'd rather have a 0-100 than a 0-10, which was basically my experience when I played healer for the first time all the way to 80 - though the same could be said about playing a DPS as well
people will just carry your bad, detrimental playstyle because it's seen as bad to give someone tips and advice because the struggling/bad player 'didn't ask for it' which is true, but on the other hand isn't, I don't know what word I'd use for it, healthy? constructive? for the community/playerbase, to foster this kind of mindset, to coddle the bad players and not even trying to help them because 'they don't want help', y'know?

---

The problem is learning is a 2 person job, you can't help or teach someone who doesn't want to learn. Look on the bright side, you will sometimes get parties where everyone is on point and you get a great run, someone who refuses to learn will always have at least one bad player, themselves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Artemiz

The problem is learning is a 2 person job, you can't help or teach someone who doesn't want to learn. Look on the bright side, you will sometimes get parties where everyone is on point and you get a great run, someone who refuses to learn will always have at least one bad player, themselves.

---

This is why it’s important to kick.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Artemiz

The problem is learning is a 2 person job, you can't help or teach someone who doesn't want to learn. Look on the bright side, you will sometimes get parties where everyone is on point and you get a great run, someone who refuses to learn will always have at least one bad player, themselves.

---

Which is perfectly acceptable in the 1-50 range but isn't by levels 70+. By that point, you aren't new and shouldn't be learning in dungeons like Holminster Switch. Frankly, even 60+ is pushing it, especially now that all those dungeons have been nerfed into the ground. If you can't handle a wall pull by 70, you should be going back down to easier dungeons not attempting others to adapt to your unwillingness to learn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Which is perfectly acceptable in the 1-50 range but isn't by levels 70+. By that point, you aren't new and shouldn't be learning in dungeons like Holminster Switch. Frankly, even 60+ is pushing it, especially now that all those dungeons have been nerfed into the ground. If you can't handle a wall pull by 70, you should be going back down to easier dungeons not attempting others to adapt to your unwillingness to learn.

---

So people aren't allowed to learn pulls now which even the biggest W2W advocates use as an example of a difficult pull?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Artemiz

So people aren't allowed to learn pulls now which even the biggest W2W advocates use as an example of a difficult pull?

---

That isn't what I said. Your previous posts implied learning how to wall pull period not a specific pull itself. Hence why I said you shouldn't be learning how to do wall pulls at 71 but should already be practicing them by 50. Put simply if you're still uncomforting pulling more than a single pack in any higher level dungeon, you should go back to the easier ones or use Trusts for practice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

That isn't what I said. Your previous posts implied learning how to wall pull period not a specific pull itself. Hence why I said you shouldn't be learning how to do wall pulls at 71 but should already be practicing them by 50. Put simply if you're still uncomforting pulling more than a single pack in any higher level dungeon, you should go back to the easier ones or use Trusts for practice.

---

Surely learning to W2W pull, especially in a leveling dungeons includes knowing what you're pulling. Is there anything I need to stun, what AoE patterns am I facing, when should I use my invulnerability, where should I make the camp, are there any ranged mobs, can I fit it all in my AoE radius. You need to know all of that and its pull specific. We can all cycle cooldowns but there is far more to being efficient with W2W pulling than that. So yes, people will still need to learn in 70+ dungeons.

For leveling dungeons, it's certainly "harder" to W2W pull. However for me that is part of the fun. If it's my first time in a dungeon as a tank then I will generally avoid W2W in leveling and try not to expect it from other new tanks. I will say though that some of the funnest pulls are in those situations and I get a lot of enjoyment from succeeding at them regardless of what role I'm in at the time.

If a tank is going "too slow" for me I just say "Don't be afraid to do bigger pulls" but that's only when I know for a fact that I can keep them alive. If I'm a DPS I only ask for larger pulls in the scenarios where it's good to use a caster LB cause that shit is really fun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Artemiz

So people aren't allowed to learn pulls now which even the biggest W2W advocates use as an example of a difficult pull?

---

If a tank has no interest in learning multipulls by the time they clear stormblood, I want them to quit tanking. If rescue assists or dps assists encourage such a tank to ragequit, that is fine— I won’t leap to the tank’s defense if they still don’t understand how to pick up threat. I’ll even help work against them from Shadowbringers on.

I want tanks that are afraid of trash to give up entirely so I can either fill their spot or simply do without them.

Accommodations have already been made for beginner tanks and slower tanks in Shadowbringers: trusts. I’d encourage players afraid of trash mobs to think of themselves as exiled to trusts until they are willing to deal with healers and dps assisting pulls.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Oh man, looks like you can't say anything contrary to the OP without their feelings being hurt. Oh well, I'll jump out of this safe space. Enjoy your single pulls & enjoy the box you trap yourself in by saying you can't do this, can't do that. DUngon2hard

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...67/unknown.png

---

Aren't people who say you *have* to wall to wall the ones trapping themselves? They're announcing to the world they can't handle it if everything isn't absolutely perfect the way they want it. They can't adjust in a variable situation like Duty Finder can be. Maybe they're the ones who need their safe spaces away from all the "bads" they just can't handle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by van_arn

If a tank has no interest in learning multipulls by the time they clear stormblood, I want them to quit tanking. If rescue assists or dps assists encourage such a tank to ragequit, that is fine— I won’t leap to the tank’s defense if they still don’t understand how to pick up threat. I’ll even help work against them from Shadowbringers on.

I want tanks that are afraid of trash to give up entirely so I can either fill their spot or simply do without them.

Accommodations have already been made for beginner tanks and slower tanks in Shadowbringers: trusts. I’d encourage players afraid of trash mobs to think of themselves as exiled to trusts until they are willing to deal with healers and dps assisting pulls.

---

I'm quite confident that nervous tanks don't want to play with you either.

Also, can you please point out where anyone is advocating for single pulls in level 70 content. Strawmen sure are easy to defeat huh?

I'll kind of repeat myself but ... Why would anyone care so much that tanks do W2W pulls in 60+ or 70+ dungeons though ?

Sure, W2W is the norm in expert roulette, but personally when i jump into leveling roulette or anything that could put me in a lower level dungeon, i don't "expect" tanks do go W2W. If they do, it's better, but if they don't, who cares. To me all dungeons before 80 are casual content, and no one should have to worry about W2W pulls there in my opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Artemiz

I'm quite confident that nervous tanks don't want to play with you either.

Also, can you please point out where anyone is advocating for single pulls in level 70 content. Strawmen sure are easy to defeat huh?

---

Thing is single pulls at any level rage is a waste.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Artemiz

Surely learning to W2W pull, especially in a leveling dungeons includes knowing what you're pulling. Is there anything I need to stun, what AoE patterns am I facing, when should I use my invulnerability, where should I make the camp, are there any ranged mobs, can I fit it all in my AoE radius. You need to know all of that and its pull specific. We can all cycle cooldowns but there is far more to being efficient with W2W pulling than that. So yes, people will still need to learn in 70+ dungeons.

---

Not... really if I'm being honest. There is only one mob in all the Shadowbringers' dungeons you should prioritize stunning, you don't need to small pull to understand where to put your invuln as you can basically feel that out as you go and "making camp" is when the game forces you to stop. There weren't even any noteworthy range mobs, and practically every AoE is generic stuff we've seen for years now from trash. In other words, if you've been wall pulling throughout Stormblood, none of the dungeons in Shadowbringers differ enough for you to change your tactics.

Case in point, I'll rely my experiences. I medium pulled Holminster mostly because it being literal day one I wasn't aware of how far I could go. I started medium pulling Don Mehg but wound up doing the super pull after the last boss because, well, I wasn't taking remotely enough damage to feel threatened. I only played a little more cautiously because of the media tour interviewers suggesting dungeons were hitting harder. MrHappy's specifically mentioned this. Turns out... they didn't. By Qitana, I wall pulled everything I could, though I didn't do the super pulls since wasn't yet aware of them. Zero issue with any. In fact, the only hard experience I had is later on when my friend was leveling Astro, she couldn't heal through Living Dead because of how poorly balanced Astro's healing was at the time.

None of this is a flex, by the way. I don't intend to imply I'm some phenomenal tank because I don't believe I am. It's more to highlight just how easy all these dungeons actually are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kraniel

I'll kind of repeat myself but ... Why would anyone care so much that tanks do W2W pulls in 60+ or 70+ dungeons though ?

Sure, W2W is the norm in expert roulette, but personally when i jump into leveling roulette or anything that could put me in a lower level dungeon, i don't "expect" tanks do go W2W. If they do, it's better, but if they don't, who cares. To me all dungeons before 80 are casual content, and no one should have to worry about W2W pulls there in my opinion.

---

Because the Twelve forbid a dungeon take even 30 seconds longer than someone's subjective idea of how long it should go when they let the game randomly match them with other people. They think somehow that every single player has the same abilities and experiences and groups never have to make adjustments to play in ways that work for that individual collection of people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

Thing is single pulls at any level rage is a waste.

---

Not really, a new rank jumping into Stone Vigil at min Ilevel is going to get destroyed if they get too cocky. Same with a lot of dungeons for newer players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Not... really if I'm being honest. There is only one mob in all the Shadowbringers' dungeons you should prioritize stunning, you don't need to small pull to understand where to put your invuln as you can basically feel that out as you go and "making camp" is when the game forces you to stop. There weren't even any noteworthy range mobs, and practically every AoE is generic stuff we've seen for years now from trash. In other words, if you've been wall pulling throughout Stormblood, none of the dungeons in Shadowbringers differ enough for you to change your tactics.

Case in point, I'll rely my experiences. I medium pulled Holminster mostly because it being literal day one I wasn't aware of how far I could go. I started medium pulling Don Mehg but wound up doing the super pull after the last boss because, well, I wasn't taking remotely enough damage to feel threatened. I only played a little more cautiously because of the media tour interviewers suggesting dungeons were hitting harder. MrHappy's specifically mentioned this. Turns out... they didn't. By Qitana, I wall pulled everything I could, though I didn't do the super pulls since wasn't yet aware of them. Zero issue with any. In fact, the only hard experience I had is later on when my friend was leveling Astro, she couldn't heal through Living Dead because of how poorly balanced Astro's healing was at the time.

None of this is a flex, by the way. I don't intend to imply I'm some phenomenal tank because I don't believe I am. It's more to highlight just how easy all these dungeons actually are.

---

Experience is the key thing though, you have it and with it confidence and even by your own admission it took you time to build it and thats fine, its normal. All I'm saying really, is it would be nice if the media side of this game had a bit more patience with players who might need more time to build confidence, instead of putting pressure on them all the time to perform to the same standard as highly experienced players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by van_arn

If a tank has no interest in learning multipulls by the time they clear stormblood, I want them to quit tanking. If rescue assists or dps assists encourage such a tank to ragequit, that is fine— I won’t leap to the tank’s defense if they still don’t understand how to pick up threat. I’ll even help work against them from Shadowbringers on.

I want tanks that are afraid of trash to give up entirely so I can either fill their spot or simply do without them.

Accommodations have already been made for beginner tanks and slower tanks in Shadowbringers: trusts. I’d encourage players afraid of trash mobs to think of themselves as exiled to trusts until they are willing to deal with healers and dps assisting pulls.

---

Bro you... know it's a game, right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Artemiz

Not really, a new rank jumping into Stone Vigil at min Ilevel is going to get destroyed if they get too cocky. Same with a lot of dungeons for newer players.



Experience is the key thing though, you have it and with it confidence and even by your own admission it took you time to build it and thats fine, its normal. All I'm saying really, is it would be nice if the media side of this game had a bit more patience with players who might need more time to build confidence, instead of putting pressure on them all the time to perform to the same standard as highly experienced players.

---

Even in stone single pulls are a waste of time. Off the top of my head cannot think of any dungeon where a single differs from a double pull in terms of handling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Artemiz

Experience is the key thing though, you have it and with it confidence and even by your own admission it took you time to build it and thats fine, its normal. All I'm saying really, is it would be nice if the media side of this game had a bit more patience with players who might need more time to build confidence, instead of putting pressure on them all the time to perform to the same standard as highly experienced players.

---

How often is that actually the case though? I don't buy this idea that people expect new players to operate like experienced players. Rather the expectation is for people to gradually improve over time. Even some harsh statements in this thread have certain thresholds of where that level of competency expectation kicks in. Yes there is a somewhat consistent expectation of players at a higher level, but that doesn't translate to sprouts or early content as a whole.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

Even in stone single pulls are a waste of time. Off the top of my head cannot think of any dungeon where a single differs from a double pull in terms of handling.

---

I would have to hard disagree. I've always classed that dungeon as a tank check. Sure the damage is a significant step up from Cutters Cry so healers don't get it easy but it's about what you pull, when and where that determines how well that dungeon goes. Even a well prepared player would still be using level 28 accessories in there and most new players will have a hodge podge of previous dungeon gear, meaning a generally low ilevel. Then they have to navigate environmental AoE, dangerous wandering mobs, mobs that spawn by surprise and hit really hard and overall quite a bit higher damage than they are used to. Many of these things will be new to a newer player and to top it off it's the first dungeon where you really should pull with provoke in certain circumstances. A sprout tank has a lot to cope with for a first run, so double pulling is almost certainly a bad idea. A team of vets? sure, but not learning sprouts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xirean

How often is that actually the case though? I don't buy this idea that people expect new players to operate like experienced players. Rather the expectation is for people to gradually improve over time. Even some harsh statements in this thread have certain thresholds of where that level of competency expectation kicks in. Yes there is a somewhat consistent expectation of players at a higher level, but that doesn't translate to sprouts or early content as a whole.

---

In the actual game? not really, certainly not very often. It's places like forums and reddit that apply the pressure. My other reply in this post I think is a good example of why this narrative should tone it down a bit. We have a sprout explosion right now and playing DPS recently I've seen more Leroy tanks than ever before, they are getting bad advice from somewhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Artemiz

In the actual game? not really, certainly not very often. It's places like forums and reddit that apply the pressure. My other reply in this post I think is a good example of why this narrative should tone it down a bit. We have a sprout explosion right now and playing DPS recently I've seen more Leroy tanks than ever before, they are getting bad advice from somewhere.

---

How do you know they are getting "bad advice" and that's not just their natural instinct as a tank? A friend of mine is an ex wow player and naturally tries to tank like that for everything. It's their go to strategy and everything else is a back up plan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xirean

How do you know they are getting "bad advice" and that's not just their natural instinct as a tank? A friend of mine is an ex wow player and naturally tries to tank like that for everything. It's their go to strategy and everything else is a back up plan.

---

Because by far the dominant narrative online is go big or go home. In game, it doesn't work like that, at least in the DF.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Artemiz

Because by far the dominant narrative online is go big or go home. In game, it doesn't work like that, at least in the DF.

---

So are you assuming that because a lot of people have that mindset that they are being given bad advice? Is there something wrong with some people wanting to do that?

Hell. I don't like doing small pulls as a tank, never have. My default is go big or go home. Nobody told me to do that though. I just wanted to.

honestly, don't you people get tired of these strawmans? a tank that single pulls usually also has trouble keeping the aggro of these mobs because they don't AOE ever, which means DPS or even healers rip the aggro away from them and potentially leading to deaths or a wipe
a tank that single pulls isn't gonna make the run take 30 seconds longer like y'all love to use as an example in every thread as if it's some universal truth, it's usually 10-15 minutes longer than the average DF run
this is exactly the issue I mentioned earlier, heaven forbid someone dares to criticize someone in this community for their complete inability to play a role; you'll immediately get piled on by people who have to show just how virtuous they are in their defense of those poor, poor players who are somehow unable to play the most braindead classes in the entire game, people who probably don't realise just how much more toxic they are than the ones they passive aggressively 'dunk on' - or maybe they do and do it anyway because being toxic is fine to those that deserve it, right?