SE: Please tone it down a hair

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Originally Posted by Starlord

I actually understand all of that and have Interest in all of what he says.. I honestly don't get whats so hard to comprehend what he's saying, or anyone else for that matter.. but again That's your opinion.. but don't shove this in people faces that you believe what you say is fact and that everyone should believe that this Dialogue sucks and that everyone should be uprising to SE that they should change how they write.

That's how I feel about the opposition right now :/.

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Explain to me how is it that those paragraphs of text are relevant to your character and why do they exist in the first place. What entices the NPC to say them? Do tell.

Maybe its UHH I don't know, to make up for the fact that the current maps say nothing so they are trying to wrongly create an atmosphere with tolkien long descriptions in a video game when there are visuals to describe the enviroment?

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Originally Posted by Majidah

Explain to me how is it that those paragraphs of text are relevant to your character and why do they exist in the first place. What entices the NPC to say them? Do tell.

Maybe its UHH I don't know, to make up for the fact that the current maps say nothing so they are trying to wrongly create an atmosphere with tolkien long descriptions in a video game when there are visuals to describe the enviroment?

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:/

To put it in short terms:

He's talking about how the primals are false gods (remember, the Garleans believe that adventurers are akin to beastmen and worship them as well) and how they don't care for us, so we should stop worshipping them. He is also flaunting his superiority and calling us ignorant and then telling that Dalamud is draining the power of the crystals and, by extention, primals in order to work

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Explain to me how is it that those paragraphs of text are relevant to your character and why do they exist in the first place. What entices the NPC to say them? Do tell.

Maybe its UHH I don't know, to make up for the fact that the current maps say nothing so they are trying to wrongly create an atmosphere with tolkien long descriptions in a video game when there are visuals to describe the enviroment?

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Herein we see that this poster isn't actually interested in the lore or characters at all, so monumentally self-contradictory and shallow is this post.

(>.> ) This is now officially a waste of time. Fortunately, I'm sure that Dev Team will ignore you.

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Originally Posted by MStowastiqVahlshdeh

please don't cut the writing down to simple one-line type stories.

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No one is asking for dumbed down simple one line anything. Why let's do a better example? Who's complaining about the job quests? I'm sure not. those were extremely well done. My favorite was dragoon. The story was compelling AND it had loads of dialogue. Why did that one work? Because the dialogue wasn't written in a disjointed way.

Or the dialogue between Cid and the Black Legatus (forgot his name) It was sharp, clipped, and revealed a lot of info and it was interesting to read! In fact, the Legatus didn't say much at all at all.

From the look of it, it is mostly the main scenario quests that have the problems, and that's really too bad.

There's no need to "dumb down" anything. Just edit more. That's my opinion anyway.

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Originally Posted by Skies

:/

To put it in short terms:

He's talking about how the primals are false gods (remember, the Garleans believe that adventurers are akin to beastmen and worship them as well) and how they don't care for us, so we should stop worshipping them. He is also flaunting his superiority and calling us ignorant and then telling that Dalamud is draining the power of the crystals and, by extention, primals in order to work

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I was just going to say that, LOL :D

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

Herein we see that this poster isn't actually interested in the lore or characters at all, so monumentally self-contradictory and shallow is this post.

(>.> ) This is now officially a waste of time. Fortunately, I'm sure that Dev Team will ignore you.

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I'm interested in DELIVERY and PROPER form of what is said.
If you ask a stranger the time, he won't tell you the story of how the first clock was invented and what society feels about them. THAT'S bad writing.
Leaving aside how shallow everything said by that NPC was, and not to mention long and uninteresting, its mostly IRRELEVANT and impossible to BELIEVE that someone would talk that much and let alone do it without being interrupted.

Why tone it down? If you tone it down to much you get all the people joining in the game that ruins almost all MMO's; I say keep it the same, if you passed 10th grade you shouldn't have a problem.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

I'm interested in DELIVERY and PROPER form of what is said.
If you ask a stranger the time, he won't tell you the story of how the first clock was invented and what society feels about them. THAT'S bad writing.
Leaving aside how shallow everything said by that NPC was, and not to mention long and uninteresting, its mostly IRRELEVANT and impossible to BELIEVE that someone would talk that much and let alone do it without being interrupted.

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You will notice he has carefully placed himself BEHIND the wind barrier, effectively getting him out of your reach.

Also, his rantyness is in fact a definition of his character. Nael is clearly insane and powermad. Ranting is in fact a thing that occurs on both of those personalities, even moreso when they mix. You could have given me a million examples of NPC verborragy on XIV, i'm sure at least a handful of sidequests in Grid are like the worst offenders, but don't harp on Nael, he's like the ONE guy out there that has all the right of doing that.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

I'm interested in DELIVERY and PROPER form of what is said.
If you ask a stranger the time, he won't tell you the story of how the first clock was invented and what society feels about them. THAT'S bad writing.
Leaving aside how shallow everything said by that NPC was, and not to mention long and uninteresting, its mostly IRRELEVANT and impossible to BELIEVE that someone would talk that much and let alone do it without being interrupted.

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Your Proper, my Proper, the Forums Proper, SE Proper.. they all have different forms of the way of "Proper". so stop shoving this Proper way of doing things in other peoples faces and SE's.. because its not impressing me any That's for sure :/. But what do I know.. everyone is stupid but you apparently... :/.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

I'm interested in DELIVERY and PROPER form of what is said.
If you ask a stranger the time, he won't tell you the story of how the first clock was invented and what society feels about them. THAT'S bad writing.
Leaving aside how shallow everything said by that NPC was, and not to mention long and uninteresting, its mostly IRRELEVANT and impossible to BELIEVE that someone would talk that much and let alone do it without being interrupted.

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We are trying to stop his doomsday plot from eventually destroying our world/way of life ... we are not asking a stranger for the time. That is why he has a little bit more to say...you sound really bad lol

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Originally Posted by Skies

:/

To put it in short terms:

He's talking about how the primals are false gods (remember, the Garleans believe that adventurers are akin to beastmen and worship them as well) and how they don't care for us, so we should stop worshipping them. He is also flaunting his superiority and calling us ignorant and then telling that Dalamud is draining the power of the crystals and, by extention, primals in order to work

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So you agree that out of 5 paragraphs the only one with actual content is the last.
Maybe he could have delivered how he doesn't worship the avatars, but you know what? He didn't deliver anything. He just blurted out some cold text book lines and justifications and analysis of the current estate of the world.

Why? WHY?

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Originally Posted by Majidah

So you agree that out of 5 paragraphs the only one with actual content is the last.
Maybe he could have delivered how he doesn't worship the avatars, but you know what? He didn't deliver anything. He just blurted out some cold text book lines and justifications and analysis of the current estate of the world.

Why? WHY?

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Because that is him TALKING as a CHARACTER. He isn't a player analyzing the plot for you.
Edit; and it isnt all in the last paragraph, it was just condensed for you into 1.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

So you agree that out of 5 paragraphs the only one with actual content is the last.
Maybe he could have delivered how he doesn't worship the avatars, but you know what? He didn't deliver anything. He just blurted out some cold text book lines and justifications and analysis of the current estate of the world.

Why? WHY?

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What? No, that was taken from all paragraphs, the last paragraph speaks only of the moon. The rest of the content is still pretty important, it defines not just his character but the motivations of the empire.

Also, as I said, ranting is in Nael's personality. I don't fully remember how the other Legatus speak fully, but I do know that the one Legatus that directly antagonizes Nael has a pretty practical and straightforward manner of speech, easily putting him as a polar opposite to Nael's raving powermad personality.

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I'm interested in DELIVERY and PROPER form of what is said.
If you ask a stranger the time, he won't tell you the story of how the first clock was invented and what society feels about them. THAT'S bad writing.
Leaving aside how shallow everything said by that NPC was, and not to mention long and uninteresting, its mostly IRRELEVANT and impossible to BELIEVE that someone would talk that much and let alone do it without being interrupted.

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Megalomaniacal villains are not your buddy from down the street, and do not have casual conversation with you.

This is not rocket science. Go watch "In the Pale Moonlight" from ST: DS9. (>.> ) There's some good, long-winded, cutting dialog.

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Originally Posted by KaplanHomahru

We are trying to stop his doomsday plot from eventually destroying our world/way of life ... we are not asking a stranger for the time. That is why he has a little bit more to say...you sound really bad lol

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Why would he even explain all that? So that we could know more about how Dalamud works and find a way to stop it?
Or are you implying that he's a bond villain and has a really strong personal relationship with us?

You don't simply give a speech like that to a run of the mill adventurer. And even then, you don't talk about situation of the world, and how the climate is, and whatever else was inside that pot of nonsense.

Here's a good way to put things....


This isn't NES era. We don't need to condense dialog into single paragraphs anymore.

We can actually tell a story, with fleshed-out characters with goals, hopes, fears, replete with moments of triumph and dismal, abject failure, without resorting to the kind of to-the-point chatter that made Mystic Quest a laughing stock.

Incidentally, I loved MQ. (>.> ) Great music.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

Why would he even explain all that? So that we could know more about how Dalamud works and find a way to stop it?
Or are you implying that he's a bond villain and has a really strong personal relationship with us?

You don't simply give a speech like that to a run of the mill adventurer.

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If you haven't noticed before...in fiction, it is very common for the villain to explain part or all of their plan(s) to the hero. So yes, he was partly explaining how it works, and yes we will probably find a way to stop it.

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Originally Posted by KaplanHomahru

If you haven't noticed before...in fiction, it is very common for the villain to explain part or all of their plan(s) to the hero. So yes, he was partly explaining how it works, and yes we will probably find a way to stop it.

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Find a way to stop it.. but fail in the end.. and Dalamud destroys everything... but the cities... :/ LOL ^^

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Why would he even explain all that? So that we could know more about how Dalamud works and find a way to stop it?
Or are you implying that he's a bond villain and has a really strong personal relationship with us?

You don't simply give a speech like that to a run of the mill adventurer. And even then, you don't talk about situation of the world, and how the climate is, and whatever else was inside that pot of nonsense.

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...you're not a run of the mill adventurer. He's already mentioned to you, after killing Ifrit Lv.25, how impressed he is with you.

Then the leaders of the individual nations mention how impressive you are.

Then von Darnus walks up, having come to kill Garuda himself, only to see that you just slew what amounts to a god in Eorzea, again. AGAIN.

Did you read ANYTHING ANYWHERE?! O_O

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

...you're not a run of the mill adventurer. He's already mentioned to you, after killing Ifrit Lv.25, how impressed he is with you.

Then the leaders of the individual nations mention how impressive you are.

Then von Darnus walks up, having come to kill Garuda himself, only to see that you just slew what amounts to a god in Eorzea, again. AGAIN.

Did you read ANYTHING ANYWHERE?! O_O

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I think that her problem is because the game's narrative treats you as if you were a great hero and not a random soldier, and stuff like 'twenty thousand people killed Garuda' does not, actually, happens in the narrative, it was just you, but that is entirely different of how the mechanics work.

It requires a little bit of suspension of disbelief, but if you're not aware that you need to treat things this way, yah, you might get mixed signals.

Excellent point. He does have a personal relationship with us. He knows who we are...we've talked before, etc...We are the ones with the power to resist him. He is thriving off of watching us struggle, and he is eagerly waiting for us to fail or give up. He wants to see it and then have the satisfaction of killing us after we've been defeated.

Guess you wouldn't know that if you don't read anything.

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I think that her problem is because the game's narrative treats you as if you were a great hero and not a random soldier, and stuff like 'twenty thousand people killed Garuda' does not, actually, happens in the narrative, it was just you, but that is entirely different of how the mechanics work.

It requires a little bit of suspension of disbelief, but if you're not aware that you need to treat things this way, yah, you might get mixed signals.

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That's common to MMOs, though. o.o

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

Here's a good way to put things....


This isn't NES era. We don't need to condense dialog into single paragraphs anymore.

We can actually tell a story, with fleshed-out characters with goals, hopes, fears, replete with moments of triumph and dismal, abject failure, without resorting to the kind of to-the-point chatter that made Mystic Quest a laughing stock.

Incidentally, I loved MQ. (>.> ) Great music.

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NES era? What. What are you talking about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8NFi...feature=relmfu

See how the pace in this dialog is great? See how they don't give out all their plans? They say whats necessary.
And even then, when speaking with you they do it because they need the stone and because you have a princess with you AND because you broke into their airship. And they don't just shoot you all only because of the princess.

See how its all WELL justified and concise?

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See how the pace in this dialog is great? See how they don't give out all their plans? They say whats necessary.
And even then, when speaking with you they do it because they need the stone and because you have a princess with you AND because you broke into their airship. And they don't just shoot you all only because of the princess.

See how its all WELL justified and concise?

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Different characters, different story. (>.> ) Different motivations, different personalities.

If you don't like the story, that's fine. But damn, just say so and be done with it.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

NES era? What. What are you talking about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8NFi...feature=relmfu

See how the pace in this dialog is great? See how they don't give out all their plans? They say whats necessary.
And even then, when speaking with you they do it because they need the stone and because you have a princess with you AND because you broke into their airship. And they don't just shoot you all only because of the princess.

See how its all WELL justified and concise?

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Again your opinion, will you stop pulling things off as facts.. because all of it is just opinions. Can you leave it be now? or you want to chomp at this some more and keep this flame war going? :/.

I don't mind the current level of speech however a more simplified version like this video would suffice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5M4wz4F3gSs

These are cut scenes from Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions (PSP). The speech isn't too complicated but keeps the seriousness of the situations that happen.

....the difference is that it is spoken and that it isn't a monologue

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

...you're not a run of the mill adventurer. He's already mentioned to you, after killing Ifrit Lv.25, how impressed he is with you.

Then the leaders of the individual nations mention how impressive you are.

Then von Darnus walks up, having come to kill Garuda himself, only to see that you just slew what amounts to a god in Eorzea, again. AGAIN.

Did you read ANYTHING ANYWHERE?! O_O

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You did his job for him twice.
In return? He gives you a report of his plans.
How does this make sense? Wouldn't you have said "hey, coolio." and turned back?

Hardly a relationship there. It isn't personal. You are just some gun for hire he saw shooting twice now.
FFXI would elevate you from the ground to this grandiose hero status, NPCs recognizing you everywhere after many, many meetings, plans foiled, plans supported, etc.

This doesn't constitute a personal relationship...

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Originally Posted by Starlord

I was just going to say that, LOL :D

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Just because you understand it doesn't mean it was explained well (or couldn't have been explained better)....

the story is GREAT
the Dialogue is decent... but, as is the case with most things, it could be written better

Final Fantasy has always been in a weird place...
Stories written in Japanese, with themes that you wouldn't expect a western audience to accept....
Specific concepts like:
Sephiroth's (And Jenova's) will
The Guardian becoming the Final Summon which in turn becomes the new sin (Spoilers much?),
A Sorceress going back in time to harness the power of another who could take her further back in time to achieve time compression
Garland creating soulless beings to be future vessels of the Terrans....
Also, being written in Japanese, they feature references and anecdotes specific to Japanese culture.
But the result is... incredible and awe inspiring....
And as a western audience... we ate it up... every drop
Somehow the localization teams always seem to take all of that Japanese goodness and make it so that we understand it, feel it, and don't miss out on any of the subtle nuances that make these games an experience

My point is... the current dialogue is not bad... it's decent... but doesn't quite live up to any of the past writing...
From this angle though, it's hard to tell if that is because of the writing, or something lost in translation as it was localized...

Is it bad dialogue.... no... but the magic isn't there.... It definitely isn't an Aaron Sorkin story...
It has nothing to do with how easy it is to understand (Although it could stand to be more concise)
Writing isn't judged only on how easy it is to understand... but also not by how pretty the words sound together...

There is a flow... a natural progression. the dialogue helps to weave the story... and this dialogue comes short quite a few times...


I had a thread that was a plot analysis and the prevailing comment was "Thanks, I've read all the text thus far and had no idea what was going on"
If you understand the story... great... good for you... but Stories aren't written to make you feel intelligent for being able to keep up....

Also... if the underlying story is great... but that point isn't getting across to most readers... then I don't know what else to blame than the dialogue

lol. damnit it took me this long to realize you are just trolling.

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You did his job for him twice.
In return? He gives you a report of his plans.
How does this make sense? Wouldn't you have said "hey, coolio." and turned back?

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How difficult is it to understand the egomaniacal character archetype? He wants you to fight now. He has two things going: a twisted sense of honor, and a goal to accomplish.

He's egging you on with the knowledge that you can do nothing to stop him (he's likely right), but that you can do nothing but try, anyhow. He delights in that. He thinks he's won.

Your incapacity to understand the plot is not a fault with the script - it's the fault of your mindset. It isn't necessarily a bad thing, but you need to step back, review some of the CS in your room, and think about 'em. o.o

Refer to this page for details.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

Just because you understand it doesn't mean it was explained well (or couldn't have been explained better)....

the story is GREAT
the Dialogue is decent... but, as is the case with most things, it could be written better

Final Fantasy has always been in a weird place...
Stories written in Japanese, with themes that you wouldn't expect a western audience to accept....
Specific concepts like:
Sephiroth's (And Jenova's) will
The Guardian becoming the Final Summon which in turn becomes the new sin (Spoilers much?),
A Sorceress going back in time to harness the power of another who could take her further back in time to achieve time compression
Garland creating soulless beings to be future vessels of the Terrans....
Also, being written in Japanese, they feature references and anecdotes specific to Japanese culture.
But the result is... incredible and awe inspiring....
Somehow the localization teams always seem to take all of that Japanese goodness and make it so that we understand it, feel it, and don't miss out on any of the subtle nuances that make these games an experience

My point is... the current dialogue is not bad... it's decent... but doesn't quite live up to any of the past writing...
From this angle though, it's hard to tell if that is because of the writing, or something lost in translation as it was localized...

Is it bad dialogue.... no... but the magic isn't there.... It definitely isn't an Aaron Sorkin story...
It has nothing to do with how easy it is to understand (Although it could stand to be more concise)
Writing isn't judged only on how easy it is to understand... but also not by how pretty the words sound together...

There is a flow... a natural progression. the dialogue helps to weave the story... and this dialogue comes short quite a few times...


I had a thread that was a plot analysis and the prevailing comment was "Thanks, I've read all the text thus far and had no idea what was going on"
If you understand the story... great... good for you... but Stories aren't written to make you feel intelligent for being able to keep up....

Also... if the underlying story is great... but that point isn't getting across to most readers... then I don't know what else to blame than the dialogue

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Again all opinions, and you have your right to have them, just don't pull them off as facts, and everyone is happy.. that's all I ask..

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Originally Posted by KaplanHomahru

lol. damnit it took me this long to realize you are just trolling.

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If by trolling you mean making a point then yes, he made an excellent one.

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Originally Posted by KujinRen

I don't mind the current level of speech however a more simplified version like this video would suffice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5M4wz4F3gSs

These are cut scenes from Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions (PSP). The speech isn't too complicated but keeps the seriousness of the situations that happen.

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This. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Oh and, to Rydin:
I also do believe that XIV as it stands now has a really friggen fragmented story that has been caused by the change in direction? Or at least something of the sort

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Originally Posted by Starlord

Again all opinions, and you have your right to have them, just don't pull them off as facts, and everyone is happy.. that's all I ask..

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Most of what is said in a forum is opinion... that's a given...
It's almost impossible to view any story or dialogue objectively...

With that being said... there isn't anything wrong with saying "I feel like the dialogue is just ok... but isn't as memorable or magical as previous titles" is not a bad thing... and it's not out of place on the forum for said game.

If anything THIS is the place for these opinions

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Originally Posted by Skies

Oh and, to Rydin:
I also do believe that XIV as it stands now has a really friggen fragmented story that has been caused by the change in direction? Or at least something of the sort

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Yes... that has to affect it...
Like those stories where you pass the baton and each person tells a piece of it... it can be tough to consistently relay all of the major plot points to the audience....

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If by trolling you mean making a point then yes, he made an excellent one.

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The point is not valid. Several people here simply have nothing better to do than flail their arms wildly at problems that amount to nothing aside from their own personal preferences.

With that said, I must stand back and realize how fruitless this exercise is. o______O These threads would probably die off if sensible people did not post in reply to them.

Thus goes the story of the forums, I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

The point is not valid. Several people here simply have nothing better to do than flail their arms wildly at problems that amount to nothing aside from their own personal preferences.

With that said, I must stand back and realize how fruitless such an exercise is. o______O These threads would probably die off if sensible people did not post on them.

Thus goes the story of the forums, I suppose.

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Auron~ This is your story.....

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Auron~ This is your story.....

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Listen to my story. ._.

This... may be our last chance.

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

The point is not valid. Several people here simply have nothing better to do than flail their arms wildly at problems that amount to nothing aside from their own personal preferences.

With that said, I must stand back and realize how fruitless this exercise is. o______O These threads would probably die off if sensible people did not post in reply to them.

Thus goes the story of the forums, I suppose.

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So in your traveled opinion, how would you rate the interior of your colon?