About damage essences in Delubrum/Dalriada

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I will say that not allowing vote kicks in DR is hilarious and makes no sense; it's like SE wanted people to try AFKing through it. It is against the ToS, though, and it's a dumb thing to risk your account over.

Also, I said it wastes the relic hunters time, which is correct.

The problem is that things like "farming" require SOME kind of personal incentive to motivate people to do it. SE added a grind but forgot to add the reward, which is hilarious. My reward is the smiling faces of all the other people in DRN who didn't actually notice or care that I saved them 1 whole minute, lol. Are we really all so surprised that's not enough for most people?


How does it waste my time? If I do rotations I get out a minute faster, and I didn't have to grind trash outside of Bozja for 10 minutes to get that 1 minute.

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Do point out in the ToS where it says afking is not allowed, lol.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Do point out in the ToS where it says afking is not allowed, lol.

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Yeah, I'm not sure where they got that from. Going afk is not a ToS violation. Now, if one were to say "I hate this group, gonna afk. Kick me please" then that would be grounds for some sort of punishment. But if someone says "Brb" or nothing at all, nothing can and won't happen because what is there to prove? Nothing.

The reward is actually getting into the group that consist of team players and cooperating with each other to get DR down in <30min. Is teamplay really such a strange notion to seek in a multiplayer game?
And i'm sorry, if rotation for 40min for 1min faster run is enough incentive, then you have problem with grinding trash itself, how much it saves time is irrelevant

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Do point out in the ToS where it says afking is not allowed, lol.

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No idea, but I know someone who had their account actioned after frequently trying to AFK through MSQ roulettes, so I assume it's somewhere in the ToS.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I will say that not allowing vote kicks in DR is hilarious and makes no sense; it's like SE wanted people to try AFKing through it. It is against the ToS, though, and it's a dumb thing to risk your account over.

Also, I said it wastes the relic hunters time, which is correct.

The problem is that things like "farming" require SOME kind of personal incentive to motivate people to do it. SE added a grind but forgot to add the reward, which is hilarious. My reward is the smiling faces of all the other people in DRN who didn't actually notice or care that I saved them 1 whole minute, lol. Are we really all so surprised that's not enough for most people?

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The problem is when each individual has this selfsame mindset, the run can be upwards of 55 minutes. Which you can compare to everyone going in with even basic or baseline essences which reduces the run by at least 20 minutes across all players utilizing them.

1 player saving 1 minute across the run, is still a significant amount of time across the collective party if everyone were to do the same. If we assume a flat minute saved per player, which it is greater still, that's still 24 minutes saved per run, each individual does not spend that much time getting a single essence. I can get 10-20 Fiendhunter in that time. Then you multiply 24 minutes saved per run across 8 (rounded) per relic you're looking at 192 minutes shaved per relic, or 3 hours and 12 minutes. Across all 17 relics, then you're looking at saving upwards of 50 hours, quite easily.

So yeah when you say it saves the time of a relic hunter. I'm going to vehemently disagree with you and chalk it down to you trying to rationalize not wanting to contribute even a modicum beyond doing a simple rotation, despite the fact the time saved off each DR run is much greater than the time it takes you to farm an essence for that corresponding run.

What I'm finding out is people want to do the bare minimum for content and don't want to do anything else and expect others to pick up the slack. Then complain when they are asked to help their team out.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

The problem is when each individual has this selfsame mindset, the run can be upwards of 55 minutes. Which you can compare to everyone going in with even basic or baseline essences which reduces the run by at least 20 minutes across all players utilizing them.

1 player saving 1 minute across the run, is still a significant amount of time across the collective party if everyone were to do the same. If we assume a flat minute saved per player, which it is greater still, that's still 24 minutes saved per run, each individual does not spend that much time getting a single essence. I can get 10-20 Fiendhunter in that time. Then you multiply 24 minutes saved per run across 8 (rounded) per relic you're looking at 192 minutes shaved per relic, or 3 hours and 12 minutes. Across all 17 relics, then you're looking at saving upwards of 50 hours, quite easily.

So yeah when you say it saves the time of a relic hunter. I'm going to vehemently disagree with you and chalk it down to you trying to rationalize not wanting to contribute even a modicum beyond doing a simple rotation, despite the fact the time saved off each DR run is much greater than the time it takes you to farm an essence for that corresponding run.

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It's an individual queue. What I'm doing doesn't determine what everyone else is doing. If I queue up and it's a 48 minute run then by popping an essence I'm only saving myself 24 seconds. If it's a 30 minute run me using an essence saves me even less time. That's how it actually works. As an individual essences never make up for the time you spend farming them. Now if me using an essence forced everyone else to use one then you could make an argument about cumulative gains, but that's not how it works.

It was SE's job to give individuals a reason to farm this stuff, but they failed. It's spending 10 minutes of your time to save 1 minute; it's idiotic and almost insulting that SE thinks I would engage in something so obviously bent.

Edit: It's like if SE added a new gil vendor that allowed you to trade 100,000 gil for 10,000 gil. Wouldn't that feel a little bit like SE is just hoping you're dumb enough to engage in an extremely lazy resource sink?

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

It's an individual queue. What I'm doing doesn't determine what everyone else is doing. If I queue up and it's a 48 minute run then by popping an essence I'm only saving myself 24 seconds. If it's a 30 minute run me using an essence saves me even less time. That's how it actually works. As an individual essences never make up for the time you spend farming them. Now if me using an essence forced everyone else to use one then you could make an argument about cumulative gains, but that's not how it works.

It was SE's job to give individuals a reason to farm this stuff, but they failed. It's spending 10 minutes of your time to save 1 minute; it's idiotic and almost insulting that SE thinks I would engage in something so obviously bent.

Edit: It's like if SE added a new gil vendor that allowed you to trade 100,000 gil for 10,000 gil. Wouldn't that feel a little bit like SE is just hoping you're dumb enough to engage in an extremely lazy resource sink?

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You're right. SE shouldn't allow you to get loot out of DR without an essence. That's on them for expecting their playerbase to have a modicum of decency. Silly devs, don't you know this guy can't be bothered to not be a leech?

Also you can take off your pants for DR and the game won't punish you. It'll actually save you like, a whole gil on dark matter when you die!

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

It's an individual queue. What I'm doing doesn't determine what everyone else is doing. If I queue up and it's a 48 minute run then by popping an essence I'm only saving myself 24 seconds. If it's a 30 minute run me using an essence saves me even less time. That's how it actually works. As individual essences never make up for the time you spend farming them. Now if me using an essence forced everyone else to use one then you could make an argument about cumulative gains, but that's not how it works.

It was SE's job to give individuals a reason to farm this stuff, but they failed. It's spending 10 minutes of your time to save 1 minute; it's idiotic.

Edit: It's like if SE added a new gil vendor that allowed you to trade 100,000 gil for 10,000 gil. Wouldn't that feel a little bit like SE is just hoping you're dumb enough to engage in an extremely lazy resource sink?

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When I consider that me having a good stock of essences allows me to join speedruns with like-minded people, then I'm going to look at it as a collective, instead of as an individual basis. Especially considering when those runs range from 12-20 minutes instead of the standard 45-55 minutes that I've had in the past. If you lack the consideration of setting up farms with a premade group of people with the same mindset then I don't really know what to tell you. But as someone aiming to get all of the relics on 2 characters, I can easily tell you it's a blessing. So I will continue to spend those '10 minutes farming an essence for 1 run that shaves 1 minute from my contribution' as you so eloquently have put it - and I will smile afterward.

They didn't fail to give you a reason - You just fail to see the reason for doing such. I farm my loathsome essences in Castrum, guess what I'm doing between each Castrum run? That's right, farming clusters whilst I wait for CEs. Of these clusters? I put into getting Finesse fragments, with these I put them all into doing DR. If I have the spare time to set aside for a significant amount of runs, I'll consider a farm group with like-minded individuals, otherwise I may do 1 run regularly. As a collective group, the time your collective spends farming essences greatly outweighs the additional time you'd otherwise spend in a daunting run that takes an hour.

I really don't know what to tell you if you genuinely think it takes you 10 minutes to farm a single Martialist essence from a plant, especially if your main class holds true.

Don't even try to equivocate this with trading 100k Gil to get 10k Gil. Not even remotely comparable. One has you engaging in a group activity with the reality of saving yourself and others significant time if you actually know how to farm essences. The other activity on the other hand, the one you tried to compare it to is a deficit regardless of the mindset you apply.

I'll take my mindset over yours any day of the week, and mine is relatively tame by comparison to others. I'm pretty sure a lot of people that care about their time, or respect the time of others would agree too

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Originally Posted by Powercow

You're right. SE shouldn't allow you to get loot out of DR without an essence. That's on them for expecting their playerbase to have a modicum of decency. Silly devs, don't you know this guy can't be bothered to not be a leech?

Also you can take off your pants for DR and the game won't punish you. It'll actually save you like, a whole gil on dark matter when you die!

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This is actually getting hilarious.

SE adds a machination to their game designed specifically to waste your time for no benefit, simply because they needed a time sink but were too lazy to come up with a proper effort/reward loop. So, does this community call out an obviously manipulative practice that's akin to crap mobile games... Nope, like proper little lemmings you all preach about decency, like the devs are altruists and we've FAILED THEM!! This forum is comic gold.

SE must love you all so much. They'll be able to keep you subbed and entertained in a negative feedback loop forever; just spending your time farming less time.

I feel like it would be easier for people to just admit they don't care to contribute, rather than spending literal hours over the span of months constructing bad-faith arguments about...(drumroll) wasted time.

I would advise everyone to cut their losses; You're arguing with individuals who establish their beliefs first, and invent their justifications second. You will never be able to have a constructive argument in good faith with this type of person. Rational arguments are wasted on the irrational. You could produce hard evidence, including timetables, to definitely prove that essences save time, and I guarantee it still wouldn't be good enough; Reality has never, and will never have any bearing on this argument.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

This is actually getting hilarious.

SE adds a machination to their game designed specifically to waste your time for no benefit, simply because they needed a time sink but were too lazy to come up with a proper effort/reward loop. So, does this community call out an obviously manipulative practice that's akin to crap mobile games... Nope, like proper little lemmings you all preach about decency, like the devs are altruists and we've FAILED THEM!! This forum is comic gold.

SE must love you all so much. They'll be able to keep you subbed and entertained in a negative feedback loop forever; just spending your time farming less time.

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Homie, are you okay? This is an mmo, the whole game is a time sink designed to waste your time for no benefit.

The mental gymnastics of trolls that want to leech and waste people's times trying to justify why it's ok to leech and waste people's times are astounding.

At least have the balls to own up to wanting to leech instead of wastime time (that could be used to farm clusters!) writing doctorate dissertations on why you are not leeching but are actually 5head optimized relic farming.

holy lmao dude

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Homie, are you okay? This is an mmo, the whole game is a time sink designed to waste your time for no benefit.

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I've slammed my head against plenty of long grinds in RPG's, the caveat being there was always a carrot at the end. SE just didn't bother with the carrot on this one; you're literally just spending 10 minutes to save 1.

I've walked you all through the technicals of why that's the case, and now I'm just watching people flail with responses like: "Dude ur wrong! I'm not going to address anything you just explained or provide any logic; I'm just gonna say ur wrong and sprinkle in words like leech and lazy because I need to sound confident to distract from the fact that I'm not saying anything! Holy lmao dude!"

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I've slammed my head against plenty of long grinds in RPG's, the caveat being there was always a carrot at the end. SE just forgot to add the carrot on this one; you're literally just spending 10 minutes to save 1.

I've walked you all through the technicals of why that's the case, and now I'm just watching people flail with responses like: "Dude ur wrong! I'm not going to address anything you just explained or provide any logic; I'm just gonna say ur wrong and sprinkle in words like leech and lazy because that's what gets likes here!"

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Cherry pick your responses more? People have already argued back your questionable math™ by pointing out that you waste 10 minutes of your time for a run to end 1 minute earlier, but if all 23 people waste 10 mins of their time so that the raid ends 1 minute earlier, it ends 24 minutes earlier vs your 10 minute investment. It's a cumulative effort reward.

By your same logic, why use buffs like Brotherhood which only add 1k to your 20k DPS and completely ignore the fact that the 5% increase for your other 7 party members does make a significant DPS difference.

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Originally Posted by lezard21

Cherry pick your responses more? People have already argued back your questionable math™ by pointing out that you waste 10 minutes of your time for a run to end 1 minute earlier, but if all 23 people waste 10 mins of their time so that the raid ends 1 minute earlier, it ends 24 minutes earlier vs your 10 minute investment. It's a cumulative effort reward.

By your same logic, why use buffs like Brotherhood which only add 1k to your 20k DPS and completely ignore the fact that the 5% increase for your other 7 party members does make a significant DPS difference.

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I'm not cherry picking; I'm responding to everything and I've already responded to that point. "If all 23 people" is a moot observation; my using an essence doesn't affect what the other 23 people do, it only affects my output. I'm 1/24th of the raid and Skirmisher increases ONLY my output by 20%, so the improvement on the run doesn't make up for the time farming.

The cumulative effort gain is only valid in a situation like PF; where the cumulative effort is a prerequisite. Farming essences for DF, however, is always a waste of time.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

You can perform all the mental gymnastics that you want, but that doesn't change the fact that not using an essence is less beneficial than using one. You aren't making a run worse, but you aren't making it better either. If you aren't willing to put in the effort that others are, don't expect them to respond positively.

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If people want to think it's lazy and be all mad about it then that's their thing, I don't really care.

If you're going to tell me farming is more efficient for relic hunters, however, then step up with more than teary eyed wailings of the word leech. I've provided the logic and math for my position, and addressed the counterpoints.

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

idk why you're all trying to get him to change his opinion when he was already proven wrong in the last DR/essence thread and 'defended' his questionable logic and maths over several pages until no one bothered anymore, it's literally just the same argument again
should've ended when the troll called the rational, logical person a troll because his feefees are hurt when people disagree /shrug

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Eh, it's the same as the other thread in that it's basically just a few of you who can't/won't address my counterpoints, but feel like you need to keep going because you don't want to accept I'm right. So, you keep making non-responses and patting each other on the back. These last 2 non-responses I've quoted here are good examples.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I'm not cherry picking; I'm responding to everything and I've already responded to that point. "If all 23 people" is a moot observation; my using an essence doesn't affect what the other 23 people do, it only affects my output. I'm 1/24th of the raid and Skirmisher increases ONLY my output by 20%, so the improvement on the run doesn't make up for the time farming.

The cumulative effort gain is only valid in a situation like PF; where the cumulative effort is a prerequisite. Farming essences for DF, however, is always a waste of time.

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You can perform all the mental gymnastics that you want, but that doesn't change the fact that not using an essence is less beneficial than using one. You aren't making a run worse, but you aren't making it better either. If you aren't willing to put in the effort that others are, don't expect them to respond positively.

idk why you're all trying to get him to change his opinion when he was already proven wrong in the last DR/essence thread and 'defended' his questionable logic and maths over several pages until no one bothered anymore, it's literally just the same argument again
should've ended when the troll called the rational, logical person a troll because his feefees are hurt when people disagree /shrug

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

idk why you're all trying to get him to change his opinion when he was already proven wrong in the last DR/essence thread and 'defended' his questionable logic and maths over several pages until no one bothered anymore, it's literally just the same argument again
should've ended when the troll called the rational, logical person a troll because his feefees are hurt when people disagree /shrug

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I know it's a pointless effort but figured I'd take a swing anyway. lol

It's like the prisoners dilemma or something.

• I use an essence and everyone else uses essences, I get a fast run but I had to spend extra time grinding.
• I don't use an essence and everyone else uses essences, I get a fast run and didn't have to grind.
• I use an essence and nobody else does, I get a slow run and wasted extra time grinding.
• Nobody uses an essence, I get a slow run but at least I didn't also grind.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I feel like it would be easier for people to just admit they don't care to contribute, rather than spending literal hours over the span of months constructing bad-faith arguments about...(drumroll) wasted time.

I would advise everyone to cut their losses; You're arguing with individuals who establish their beliefs first, and invent their justifications second. You will never be able to have a constructive argument in good faith with this type of person. Rational arguments are wasted on the irrational. You could produce hard evidence, including timetables, to definitely prove that essences save time, and I guarantee it still wouldn't be good enough; Reality has never, and will never have any bearing on this argument.

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I still remember your short video & their response to that lol. It’s mind-boggling.

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

idk why you're all trying to get him to change his opinion when he was already proven wrong in the last DR/essence thread and 'defended' his questionable logic and maths over several pages until no one bothered anymore, it's literally just the same argument again
should've ended when the troll called the rational, logical person a troll because his feefees are hurt when people disagree /shrug

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I've gotten called a troll twice out of my uh, 700+ post history. That I can tell, anyways, lol. Both times it was by people who either knew they were being disingenuous or GENUINELY thought that disagreement/dismissiveness was trolling. Either way, I feel like it's obvious when I checked out of this.

Feel like we all are getting massively trolled here, ahah.

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Originally Posted by MilkieTea

I've gotten called a troll twice out of my uh, 700+ post history. That I can tell, anyways, lol. Both times it was by people who either knew they were being disingenuous or GENUINELY thought that disagreement/dismissiveness was trolling. Either way, I feel like it's obvious when I checked out of this.

Feel like we all are getting massively trolled here, ahah.

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Unfortunately no, I don't think they are trolling. This is just how Goji operates. He genuinely believes that he is always right and that everyone else is wrong. There is no reasoning with that.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Edit: It's like if SE added a new gil vendor that allowed you to trade 100,000 gil for 10,000 gil. Wouldn't that feel a little bit like SE is just hoping you're dumb enough to engage in an extremely lazy resource sink?

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No, using your numbers, it's more like if they added an item you could buy for 100k, but doing so rewards everyone with 10k at the end of DR. If all 24 people paid 100k, everyone would get 240k at the end of the run.

Even using your absurd "10 minutes to farm," that is an amazing deal. It takes nowhere near 10 minutes to farm one. It takes less than 1.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

This is actually getting hilarious.

SE adds a machination to their game designed specifically to waste your time for no benefit, simply because they needed a time sink but were too lazy to come up with a proper effort/reward loop. So, does this community call out an obviously manipulative practice that's akin to crap mobile games... Nope, like proper little lemmings you all preach about decency, like the devs are altruists and we've FAILED THEM!! This forum is comic gold.

SE must love you all so much. They'll be able to keep you subbed and entertained in a negative feedback loop forever; just spending your time farming less time.

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So wait, you're saying that SE has added a machination to waste your time for no benefit -- that is, the Resistance weapon grind -- and that there's no effort/reward loop? I'm confused. Why are you doing it if you don't enjoy it?

And yes, the Resistance weapons are pointless. The expansion is over. It's been over for months. All you're doing with the resistance weapon is either getting glamour -- something with no functional value outside of what you make of the visuals, OR you're gearing up for the next expansion -- which means you're spending all of this time to save... what, maybe a cumulative 5 minutes in Endwalker? You know these weapons are going to be completely useless by 85, maybe 86 at the latest.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

And yes, the Resistance weapons are pointless. The expansion is over. It's been over for months. All you're doing with the resistance weapon is either getting glamour -- something with no functional value outside of what you make of the visuals, OR you're gearing up for the next expansion -- which means you're spending all of this time to save... what, maybe a cumulative 5 minutes in Endwalker? You know these weapons are going to be completely useless by 85, maybe 86 at the latest.

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Incorrect. The completed relics are in most, if not all cases the best weapons in the game currently, and we have until November. That's a good bit of time for them to be useful, along with them being leveling weapons part of the way through Endwalker. That is not pointless. Sure, in the end they will become glamour pieces, but that's the fate of every piece of gear in the game eventually. Either way, they are not pointless. Far from it.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Incorrect. The completed relics are in most, if not all cases the best weapons in the game currently, and we have until November. That's a good bit of time for them to be useful, along with them being leveling weapons part of the way through Endwalker. That is not pointless. Sure, in the end they will become glamour pieces, but that's the fate of every piece of gear in the game eventually. Either way, they are not pointless. Far from it.

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I'm not knocking them, they're fine weapons and I do actually enjoy DR. The grind doesn't bother me, and even though I'm not going to use the visuals for 'em it's one of those little MMO ticks, you know? Fill up the bar. Get the thing. It's fun.

But yeah functionally the weapons are useless. Heck they don't even do anything in the most recent content, NOR any of the most difficult content in the game. They're for epeening measuring contests with logs -- long, LONG after the log race has been over -- or glam/endwalker prep.

Gee it's almost like I've seen this scene before a few weeks ago and it was established at the end of the thread everyone who didn't want to farm for essences had a "Me! Me! Me! Me!" mentality that couldn't own up to the responsibility of just not wanting to put in the work.

:rolleyes:

I had a Dalriada that was on the teeth of failing today on Diablo because of low essence usage, low DPS, and deaths. People actually left before the last fight probably knowing the low damage. So you can imagine if it weren't for a handful of people like me using damage essences and decent rotations, that would have been a fail.

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Originally Posted by technole

I had a Dalriada that was on the teeth of failing today on Diablo because of low essence usage, low DPS, and deaths. People actually left before the last fight probably knowing the low damage. So you can imagine if it weren't for a handful of people like me using damage essences and decent rotations, that would have been a fail.

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I'd say the issue there was mostly the players themselves skill wise, not their essences or even the low dps. My last Dalriada run was filled to the brim with WHMs which, while they can do respectable dps with essences, weren't putting out large enough numbers to help things along in a timely fashion. As to whether they were all using essences I can't really say. I just know they were there. It was semi slow going, but it got finished. Dalriada is super forgiving.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I'd say the issue there was mostly the players themselves skill wise, not their essences or even the low dps. My last Dalriada run was filled to the brim with WHMs which, while they can do respectable dps with essences, weren't putting out large enough numbers to help things along in a timely fashion. As to whether they were all using essences I can't really say. I just know they were there. It was semi slow going, but it got finished. Dalriada is super forgiving.

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Of course. People already having bad rotations isn't going to make things much better with a damage essence, and then add things like raise sickness and it's even worse. You can almost think of these raid dungeons could be equal to a slow DF expert roulette with a few bad players and then amplify that x 20 perhaps.

Healers using Templar essences at the minimum usually puts them above most average red DPS in damage. I feel there is no reason to run defensive essences as a healer in DR or Dal unless they are tanking, and since you got other actions and skills to boost defense.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I've slammed my head against plenty of long grinds in RPG's, the caveat being there was always a carrot at the end. SE just didn't bother with the carrot on this one; you're literally just spending 10 minutes to save 1.

I've walked you all through the technicals of why that's the case, and now I'm just watching people flail with responses like: "Dude ur wrong! I'm not going to address anything you just explained or provide any logic; I'm just gonna say ur wrong and sprinkle in words like leech and lazy because I need to sound confident to distract from the fact that I'm not saying anything! Holy lmao dude!"

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Youre the guy going on rants about how the devs are lazy and manipulative because you dont like bozja content and everyone who is enjoying essences and lost actions are lemmings or sheep.

You might wanna go outside and touch some grass, instead of faffing around in content you clearly resent.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

I'm not knocking them, they're fine weapons and I do actually enjoy DR. The grind doesn't bother me, and even though I'm not going to use the visuals for 'em it's one of those little MMO ticks, you know? Fill up the bar. Get the thing. It's fun.

But yeah functionally the weapons are useless. Heck they don't even do anything in the most recent content, NOR any of the most difficult content in the game. They're for epeening measuring contests with logs -- long, LONG after the log race has been over -- or glam/endwalker prep.

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Aren't the final ones 535? That's better than tome weapons. These weren't intended to be useful in difficult content. This was the non-raider version of an endgame weapon. There are plenty of people who will be using these for more than just glamour.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I've walked you all through the technicals of why that's the case,

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What technicals? The "using essence only saves 1 minute" number that you pulled out of your hat? How did you verify and prove this?

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

my using an essence doesn't affect what the other 23 people do, it only affects my output.

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Essence? Yes, it only affects your output.

But Lost Actions can affect the output of the rest of the raid, immensely, particularly Lost Rend Armor. 2 people out of 24 can keep it constantly up if they alternate uses, the equivalent of constant Trick Attack upkeep, which is huge. I was just in a pug DR where I was the only one using Rend Armor and the Queen died in less than 5 minutes, with party having suboptimal essences like Beast and Bloodsucker.

And there are no excuses why people don't carry it now with the nerf to fragments cost. Literally 10 minutes of killing magitek in a party for 10~ clusters can net you 4-6 Lost Rend Armor, and the other times you are getting Pure Essence of the Duelist which is better than Skirmisher, and can be combined with Honored Sacrifice for more DPS with no penalty.

There is no "grind" excuse anymore to be a freeloader.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Aren't the final ones 535? That's better than tome weapons. These weren't intended to be useful in difficult content. This was the non-raider version of an endgame weapon. There are plenty of people who will be using these for more than just glamour.

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Actually raiders want the Resistance relic too, since the custom 3rd stat makes it BiS for all ultimates in the game.

gee I don't check for a day and it goes 5 pages of useless fights.
Ok so, again I see the point against essences cause expensive and consumables and rng and yadda yadda (I use them myself but if others don't eh), but those people who don't wanna use essences for those reasons, are you at least grinding honors? Cause those are not RNG and permanent and increase your damage loads. Every time I see a rank 25 without them, or even someone who refuses to get to 25 for them I cry. I wouldn't ask anybody to spend time or money for consumables, but for a permanent boost, not doing that is grieving imho. And it saddens me that people are all about essences and then go in without valor.

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

gee I don't check for a day and it goes 5 pages of useless fights.
Ok so, again I see the point against essences cause expensive and consumables and rng and yadda yadda (I use them myself but if others don't eh), but those people who don't wanna use essences for those reasons, are you at least grinding honors? Cause those are not RNG and permanent and increase your damage loads. Every time I see a rank 25 without them, or even someone who refuses to get to 25 for them I cry. I wouldn't ask anybody to spend time or money for consumables, but for a permanent boost, not doing that is grieving imho. And it saddens me that people are all about essences and then go in without valor.

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Well I already know what the response to this would be "Does this get done while I'm doing my relic farm?"

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

gee I don't check for a day and it goes 5 pages of useless fights.
Ok so, again I see the point against essences cause expensive and consumables and rng and yadda yadda (I use them myself but if others don't eh), but those people who don't wanna use essences for those reasons, are you at least grinding honors? Cause those are not RNG and permanent and increase your damage loads. Every time I see a rank 25 without them, or even someone who refuses to get to 25 for them I cry. I wouldn't ask anybody to spend time or money for consumables, but for a permanent boost, not doing that is grieving imho. And it saddens me that people are all about essences and then go in without valor.

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If people aren't going out of their way to even bother grinding or using essences I can guarantee you they aren't going out of their way to grind valor. Whether the buffs are permanent or not, and whether the drops of the essence are RNG or not. you can get essence a damn sight faster than you can valor. If people aren't spending mettle that's 1 thing, but expecting people to grind out valor, and trying to see the point of not grinding essence in that same vein is comedic

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

If people aren't going out of their way to even bother grinding or using essences I can guarantee you they aren't going out of their way to grind valor. Whether the buffs are permanent or not, and whether the drops of the essence are RNG or not. you can get essence a damn sight faster than you can valor. If people aren't spending mettle that's 1 thing, but expecting people to grind out valor, and trying to see the point of not grinding essence in that same vein is comedic

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The being permanent is a huge difference though. You're gonna have to grind/buy essences the whole time you're doing relics, one or more per run of anything you run, idk if anyone ever did the math but I certainly don't want to. The time to farm that all (or the time to farm the money to buy it) is way more than grinding valor takes. , unless you're only doing one relic or something.

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

The being permanent is a huge difference though. You're gonna have to grind/buy essences the whole time you're doing relics, one or more per run of anything you run, idk if anyone ever did the math but I certainly don't want to. The time to farm that all (or the time to farm the money to buy it) is way more than grinding valor takes. , unless you're only doing one relic or something.

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The whole it being permanent is a big enticement, which is why you should spend the mettle if you have it - But I don't think it's feasible for people to go out of their way to grind it, especially when you can get any damage boosting essence a lot faster than you otherwise can get the valor, and that is taking into account sufficient essences for the number of Delubrum runs you'd be doing, which is upwards to 128 runs.

I can at least say that doing CLL is just as good as doing the 24 man ARR raids, and you don't get from one castrum to the next instantly. The time between castrum runs is time you can spend joining a cluster farm group, or a farm for skill frags to get Martialist/Aetherweaver, and given how many clusters it is for a fragment now you can get a lot more than you're predicting between Castrum runs. People seem to be under the impression that farming essences take millennia; when it doesn't if you at least exercise the brain a little.

I'm not saying they fall from the sky or anything, nor do I really defend the scaling DR to essence use because I disagree with that approach vehemently after seeing how the majority of the community has taken to it. - But people are seriously overestimating the effort/time needed to get essences. Even in bulk