Garuda Weapons are weaker than Mog!!

Great patch but for one thing ...

So annoyed that the two handed weapon is for blm and not whm AGAIN ... *sighs* ... at least there is +wind dmg but we already have a one handed weapon that has that.

If lower delay weps lower the ws timers that would make them much more attractive.

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Originally Posted by Firon

If lower delay weps lower the ws timers that would make them much more attractive.

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But they don't. =)

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

But they don't. =)

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Yeah sadly lol.

Raubahn, why do you spell "those" as "thous"? It's bugging the hell out of me. lol

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Originally Posted by Fionlagh

i only take issue with min/max dorks (not all min/maxers btw, just the elitist wannabes, no youre not and cant be an elitist , youre playing a game) who post worthless crap like "garuda weapons are garbage " more like what you said is garbage

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What's your problem? I can't call them garbage even though they're almost certainly just that? Please drop the obession with political correctness and beating around the bush. It serves nobody.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

Right..it only gives you more AA dps when you're not using Weaponskills. Completely useless, owait.

It only gives you an extra 25 acc whereas ifrit gives none. Compeltely useless...owait.

It only gives you an extra 40 att power...completely useless...owait.

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They probably do give extra AA damage, but 1) AA damage is only a small part of your total damage output and 2) your stat caps are lower, so if the rest of your gear is really good you may even lose AA damage using these.

Personally, I doubt these would touch Ifrit's even if they didn't lower your stat caps because WS produce most of your damage and they don't care about delay one bit.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

It's just base damage divided by delay
It doesn't take into account extra stats like Ifrit's +30 ATK
Its pretty much an accurate depiction of what would happen if the two weapons went head to head in an auto-attack battle

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This is the problem what they have done is too simplistic and doesn't take into account actual stat changes.

IMO the DPS should be in the player attributes page and based of all stats, something like Physical DPS = average calculation and Magical DPS = average calculation (based on a mob of the same level)

Hopefully someone will make an addon that can do this, it will require a lot of theorycraft though :(

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Originally Posted by Frein

2) your stat caps are lower, so if the rest of your gear is really good you may even lose AA damage using these.

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Yea this is the most absurd thing I have seen in a game in along time, why would they do this ?

Is it some half assed system put in place to stop low levelled players being overpowered .. SE boggle my mind sometimes.

Maybe you guys noticed but some of the crafted weapons have HIGHER base dmg than IFRIT'S! Kind of excited now.

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Originally Posted by Irzibe

Raubahn, why do you spell "those" as "thous"? It's bugging the hell out of me. lol

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lol
<<Kuwaiti (i have some bad spelling so just ignore those"

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9264/trollvader.jpg

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Originally Posted by Frein

What's your problem? I can't call them garbage even though they're almost certainly just that? Please drop the obession with political correctness and beating around the bush. It serves nobody.


They probably do give extra AA damage, but 1) AA damage is only a small part of your total damage output and 2) your stat caps are lower, so if the rest of your gear is really good you may even lose AA damage using these.

Personally, I doubt these would touch Ifrit's even if they didn't lower your stat caps because WS produce most of your damage and they don't care about delay one bit.

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You have multiple stats for a reason. So what if your stat cap is lowered, you can then pump up another related stat. For instance if my STR cap is lowered thanks to Garuda, I can give some much needed love to my attack stat. If that cap is lowered (im not sure if those stats lower), then I can give much needed love to my crit attack stat until that hits some cap.

This is what I mean by thinking outside the box. You forget other game elements exist because you've narrowed down your focus to a very very very small range of numbers. In this way, Garuda can easily balance with Ifrit weapons...well in theory anyway. It depends how much the stat caps lower, and by how much that actually affects your dmg output. In the end to call them trash is probably a gross exaggeration. You, as a player, have to learn to adapt to different styles.

For this reason I say the dev team is smarter than all of us. They know the intricacies of the game and how different stat combinations work out, combinations we havent even really studied or tested yet!! How can you say then, with such conviction, that Garuda weapons aren't even viable. Obviously dev team takes something into account that you don't. Instead of blinding yourself, try expanding your knowledge, remaining open-minded, and testing the millions of other possibilities out there.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Maybe you guys noticed but some of the crafted weapons have HIGHER base dmg than IFRIT'S! Kind of excited now.

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Yet they're class only so mostly good for soloing, not for parties.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

I would prefer lower damage lower delay, if done right it gives more dps, it gives more tp which means more weapon skills, low delay and dmg but high dps > high dmg and delay but low dps.

Only time you want high dmg and delay is for WS, but it will need a parse to see whats better, also the crit att power on some and additional wind damage bring the parse up.

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Yeah I'm willing to bet that if you get in an extra weaponskill or 2 in a fight because of the lower delay it will make up for or exceed the lower damage of the weapon skills themselves

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

You have multiple stats for a reason. So what if your stat cap is lowered, you can then pump up another related stat. For instance if my STR cap is lowered thanks to Garuda, I can give some much needed love to my attack stat. If that cap is lowered (im not sure if those stats lower), then I can give much needed love to my crit attack stat until that hits some cap.

This is what I mean by thinking outside the box. You forget other game elements exist because you've narrowed down your focus to a very very very small range of numbers. In this way, Garuda can easily balance with Ifrit weapons...well in theory anyway. It depends how much the stat caps lower, and by how much that actually affects your dmg output. In the end to call them trash is probably a gross exaggeration. You, as a player, have to learn to adapt to different styles.

For this reason I say the dev team is smarter than all of us. They know the intricacies of the game and how different stat combinations work out, combinations we havent even really studied or tested yet!! How can you say then, with such conviction, that Garuda weapons aren't even viable. Obviously dev team takes something into account that you don't. Instead of blinding yourself, try expanding your knowledge, remaining open-minded, and testing the millions of other possibilities out there.

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These stats have already been tested. Most classes only have two attributes that affect damage and they're STR and whatever seconday stat the class uses. Both are capped (for WS, AA caps even earlier) at IIRC roughly ~350 and ~310 respectively when using Ifrit's weapons. Both caps are very reachable simultaneously, after which you'll have to focus on other, less effective, stats like attack power, or even worse, crit power/rate. The catch is, of course, that those stats are less effective, so your plan to circumvent the stat caps by loading up on ATK isn't going to produce the desired result of giving equal performance.

I don't need to test every gear set separately to draw reasonable conclusions because the individual stats the items are comprised of have been tested.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Yea I was disappointed with this, CNJ weapon just looks like another trophy .. I mean Wind potency .. I think someone forget to tell SE CNJ/WHM is a healer.



Fair enough lets see what you get on the parser :D
Lets hope it don't take as long for you to get Garuda Fist though or we could be waiting a while.

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well based on BG drops (everyone got 2 tokens for 1 kill) it will take 20 wins just to buy a weapon unless they just got really lucky and everyone just so happened to get 2 tokens for that run.

You also forgot to take into account that any ability or WS used resets the swing timer.

Maybe if that wasn't the case the quicker delay weapons would have a viable set up, but since its not most of the Garuda weapons are side/down grades from what we currently have.

Obtw Sanction Weapons are pretty beast when you pay for the Sanction buff to be active, and some of them are stronger than Ifrit Weapons when you do.

@ Frein hrmm... the "politcally correct" card, not surprised, goes pretty well with all the rest of your mentally lazy way of thinking.
its garbage to you, i get that, you're purely talking in the context of min/max, thats who you are, what you as a player only put value on.
youre a keyboard wizard, a dork , in game youre cool though, you use math lmao

you know what though, you win this arguement, solely based on the fact that your numbers are bigger than mine
we all know big numbers are cool, we all play to see those cool numbers on the screen

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Originally Posted by Fionlagh

@ Frein hrmm... the "politcally correct" card, not surprised, goes pretty well with all the rest of your mentally lazy way of thinking.
its garbage to you, i get that, you're purely talking in the context of min/max, thats who you are, what you as a player only put value on.
youre a keyboard wizard, a dork , in game youre cool though, you use math lmao

you know what though, you win this arguement, solely based on the fact that your numbers are bigger than mine
we all know big numbers are cool, we all play to see those cool numbers on the screen

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So if big numbers aren't your thing, what exactly are you planning on using this stuff for? Role-play some kind of wind warrior?

Gotta love this type of anti-intellectualism. Math is bad! Knowledge is bad! Reason is bad! Let's instead praise the irrational and the ignorant and not worry about a thing, am I right?

more ws's are nice but i imagine this will be like the Soboro for sam its ok for solo but in pts ppl would yell at you unless you were /rng

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Originally Posted by Zdenka

Obtw Sanction Weapons are pretty beast when you pay for the Sanction buff to be active, and some of them are stronger than Ifrit Weapons when you do.

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This again also raises the 'overtime' argument. Sanction weapons are useful for only 180 minutes at a time in terms of being 'more powerful', ifrit weapons are eternally powerful.

Definitely want that Lance, gonna make a Critgoon

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Originally Posted by Frein

I don't need to test every gear set separately to draw reasonable conclusions because the individual stats the items are comprised of have been tested.

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I'm going to be honest, ive yet to see a truly comprehensive test of all stats and stat combinations. I've seen tests wehre someone raised str a lot, took notes, raised att a lot, took notes....but these kinds of tests can't really be used in the way everyone is trying to use them. They are flawed in that they

1) dont take into account individual class strengths/weaknesses/skills/etc

2) dont attempt to create a coherent gear setup that emphasies a combination of the stats in question

3) limited parser data on generally one mob, or a small set of mobs

These tests were designed, least all the tests ive seen, to find caps. That is all. For example, ive yet to see a crit rate/crit att power build as compared to a pure att power build on say..a DRG. This is what I mean by incomplete testing. I am not disputing numbers with you, I am disputing that what you are arguing against has never been tested. Low delay with different builds has never been tested in comparison to other builds. You are taking a test out of context and trying to force it to apply to everything. You can only apply a test to what it was designed for.

Math and science do not operate the way you are trying to operate. If this was a scientific community, your reasoning woudl be labeled highly flawed. And it is. I'll repeat for like the 20th time, the dev team is aware of certain things that you are not. Instead of accepting this, and looking for where your knowledge could be lacking, you cling to now-dated tests that don't even test the thing you are arguing against.

As far as the validity of Garuda weapons go, you dont really have a case until its tested, and tested properly.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

I'm going to be honest, ive yet to see a truly comprehensive test of all stats and stat combinations. I've seen tests wehre someone raised str a lot, took notes, raised att a lot, took notes....but these kinds of tests can't really be used in the way everyone is trying to use them. They are flawed in that they

1) dont take into account individual class strengths/weaknesses/skills/etc

2) dont attempt to create a coherent gear setup that emphasies a combination of the stats in question

3) limited parser data on generally one mob, or a small set of mobs

These tests were designed, least all the tests ive seen, to find caps. That is all. For example, ive yet to see a crit rate/crit att power build as compared to a pure att power build on say..a DRG. This is what I mean by incomplete testing. I am not disputing numbers with you, I am disputing that what you are arguing against has never been tested. Low delay with different builds has never been tested in comparison to other builds. You are taking a test out of context and trying to force it to apply to everything. You can only apply a test to what it was designed for.

Math and science do not operate the way you are trying to operate. If this was a scientific community, your reasoning woudl be labeled highly flawed. And it is. I'll repeat for like the 20th time, the dev team is aware of certain things that you are not. Instead of accepting this, and looking for where your knowledge could be lacking, you cling to now-dated tests that don't even test the thing you are arguing against.

As far as the validity of Garuda weapons go, you dont really have a case until its tested, and tested properly.

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Read this that cry hit power on garuda claws wont help -.- http://kanican.livejournal.com/56489.html

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

These tests were designed, least all the tests ive seen, to find caps. That is all. For example, ive yet to see a crit rate/crit att power build as compared to a pure att power build on say..a DRG. This is what I mean by incomplete testing. I am not disputing numbers with you, I am disputing that what you are arguing against has never been tested. Low delay with different builds has never been tested in comparison to other builds. You are taking a test out of context and trying to force it to apply to everything. You can only apply a test to what it was designed for.

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Against L45 enemies your crit rate increases by ~1% for every +30 Crit Rate you have and the base crit rate is ~11%. Against higher level enemies it's lower and it is also assumed the potency of +Crit Rate goes down as dLevel increases. Crit rate is capped at 20%.

This means adding +Crit Rate is very inefficient as far as the rate of criticals goes.

Crit damage has a floor of 115% and a ceiling of 175%. These are placed after the actual calculation for crit damage and the formula is affected by dLevel. Against a L50 enemy your critical damage is ~120% and by dLevel = 4, your crit damage has fallen below or roughly to the 115% floor. This means when dLevel > 5, the initial points of any Critical Potency on your gear are essentially wasted. When dLevel = 8 (Ifrit), you waste the first 56 points of +Crit Potency before you get any effect.

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Math and science do not operate the way you are trying to operate. If this was a scientific community, your reasoning woudl be labeled highly flawed. And it is. I'll repeat for like the 20th time, the dev team is aware of certain things that you are not. Instead of accepting this, and looking for where your knowledge could be lacking, you cling to now-dated tests that don't even test the thing you are arguing against.

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The dev team clearly isn't aware of how mages work and they still struggle to make gear that mages actually want to use. The end game darklight mage items suck and every primal CNJ/WHM drop has only offensive stats. It seems obvious that whoever designs this stuff has very limited understanding of the game mechanics involved. I don't need to test the Garuda, Ifrit and Moogle wands to realize that their effect on my cures and buffs is between zero and marginal.

If you want more detailed information about stats, I recommend you read this thread and the LJ posts by Kaeko you'll find there. He has a much better understanding of the actual math and testing methods, so you better ask him if you want to question the results.

actually, frein, i know the numbers, as do you, only because of someones elses body of work, are you seriously claiming to be an intellectual because youre able to read? lmao...

as for being a wind warrior, thats sounds cooler than being a math warrior

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Originally Posted by Fionlagh

actually, frein, i know the numbers, as do you, only because of someones elses body of work, are you seriously claiming to be an intellectual because youre able to read? lmao...

as for being a wind warrior, thats sounds cooler than being a math warrior

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He is claiming to be an intellectual based on the fact he can read and understand basic concepts of math compared to the rest of this community that relies on pretty flashy expanding weapons saying it has 1 higher dps.

edit, im drunk and probably going to get banned again today :(

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Originally Posted by Fionlagh

as for being a wind warrior, thats sounds cooler than being a math warrior

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The term is Arithmetician....
And it was awesome in Tactics

http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery...ician-male.jpg

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Originally Posted by Firon

Read this that cry hit power on garuda claws wont help -.- http://kanican.livejournal.com/56489.html

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Did you actually read that all the way through. I see tables that directly prove even a +40 crit attack power can increase the damage on your crits >_> and they didnt even test the numers beyond +70. Imagine if you were specced for crit attack power + whatever you got from Garuda? This is what I mean by faulty test analysis. The only ppl that seem to know what the test means are the testers. Everyone else draws all these erroneous assumptions based on limited tests.

You seriously took a test that kinda explored the potential for crit potency/crit attack power...showed positive results that differed depending on dlvl between mob and player, and despite the positive results you conclude something to the effect of: "it is useless". How you get this conclusion from this test I have no idea, cuz I read it and saw potential.

Even +40 had a noticeable increase...imagine if you had +70, or +200. Theoretically you could hit the crit dmg cap, whatever that is. According to this test its a 20% increase in crit damage if you have +200 crit attack power. I'll take a good 20% more dmg off a crit..yes please.

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Originally Posted by Frein

Against L45 enemies your crit rate increases by ~1% for every +30 Crit Rate you have and the base crit rate is ~11%. Against higher level enemies it's lower and it is also assumed the potency of +Crit Rate goes down as dLevel increases. Crit rate is capped at 20%.

This means adding +Crit Rate is very inefficient as far as the rate of criticals goes.

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I realize this. However, what ppl fail to take into account, is that some classes (drg says hi) have skills that increase their critical rate. So if you combine those skills with gear that increases your critcal rate, and increase your crit attack power, you can be more efficient. This is not even factoring in things like traits and the like. This is what I mean by think outside the box. Ppl forget about a lot of game mechanics as soon as someone produces a test that is necessarily limited in scope. Take a DRG with one optimized build...take a DRG with another optimized build, compare the two. *That* is a test you can draw the kind of conclusions you are trying to draw about Garuda weapons.

To clarify, I am no debating the results of anyone's test. You can't debate numbers, thats just stupid. I am debating the conclusions you are trying to draw from the test, precisely because you are taking a test out of context and trying to apply it to new information and new potential setups. You need to actually *test* these setups before you can conclude anything about what you are trying to conclude. Thats really just the bottom line. There's not much room for argument here. We can speculate all we want, but the fact of the matter is there is no test to prove any of it yet.

I don't think any body can say with certainty that the Garuda weapons have the same stat cap as Ifrit weapons because no extensive tests have been done on it yet. Until we can test and confirm a proper stat cap and can compare those with Moogle and Ifrit, arguing is pretty pointless...

Hell, SE could make these weapons have a hidden effect that says: improves effect from secondary weapon stat. Or I can dream right? ^_^

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

Did you actually read that all the way through. I see tables that directly prove even a +40 crit attack power can increase the damage on your crits >_> and they didnt even test the numers beyond +70. Imagine if you were specced for crit attack power + whatever you got from Garuda? This is what I mean by faulty test analysis. The only ppl that seem to know what the test means are the testers. Everyone else draws all these erroneous assumptions based on limited tests.

You seriously took a test that kinda explored the potential for crit potency/crit attack power...showed positive results that differed depending on dlvl between mob and player, and despite the positive results you conclude something to the effect of: "it is useless". How you get this conclusion from this test I have no idea, cuz I read it and saw potential.

Even +40 had a noticeable increase...imagine if you had +70, or +200. Theoretically you could hit the crit dmg cap, whatever that is. According to this test its a 20% increase in crit damage if you have +200 crit attack power. I'll take a good 20% more dmg off a crit..yes please.



I realize this. However, what ppl fail to take into account, is that some classes (drg says hi) have skills that increase their critical rate. So if you combine those skills with gear that increases your critcal rate, and increase your crit attack power, you can be more efficient. This is not even factoring in things like traits and the like. This is what I mean by think outside the box. Ppl forget about a lot of game mechanics as soon as someone produces a test that is necessarily limited in scope. Take a DRG with one optimized build...take a DRG with another optimized build, compare the two. *That* is a test you can draw the kind of conclusions you are trying to draw about Garuda weapons.

To clarify, I am no debating the results of anyone's test. You can't debate numbers, thats just stupid. I am debating the conclusions you are trying to draw from the test, precisely because you are taking a test out of context and trying to apply it to new information and new potential setups. You need to actually *test* these setups before you can conclude anything about what you are trying to conclude. Thats really just the bottom line. There's not much room for argument here. We can speculate all we want, but the fact of the matter is there is no test to prove any of it yet.

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40 gives you nothing on mobs that matter did you not read. you need like 200+ crt on mobs 8 lvl higher than you for it even matter.

Lux i just think you are an idiot

Can't prove idiotism without proper testing firon.

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Originally Posted by Treach

Can't prove idiotism without proper testing firon.

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Yeah i forgot. 2+2 = Fish!!!

There is a huge difference between the testing process (i.e. how Seiken Valk and I actually get the data and information) and what you see presented in our posts / LJ.

The best way I can put this is what you read sounds like we went line by line - I tested this, I got this result, therefore I proceed to this, etc. But in reality the testing process is more like: "wtf happened? I don't know, maybe this explanation? Let's test it." Then after about 10 tests, 9 of them probably very irrelevant, we reach some conclusion based on our best judgment and of course unfortunately our own biases. Once we reach whatever conclusion we've decided, we present the strongest case possible to back up said conclusion. That is the product everyone sees and reads.

We both keep and exchange a mind-numbingly large data bank of all our data, probably about 70%+ of which never gets posted in a public arena. If you ask us specific questions, we can point to a test maybe, but much of it is never shown. To emphasis this point again, the testing results contain biases and extrapolations (for example, testing only +70 crit gear and extending this to situations of 300+). All these things are written in my LJ posts, but they are almost always ignored (unfortunately). Basically, the test could be flawed, the analysis of the data could be biased or flawed, and the conclusions may be extrapolations. If you truly want to get into the "science" of this, these are all things you must accept.

Despite these potential errors and flaws, we try to present a clean case with as strong an explanation as we can. We wait a long time between testing and actually posting to make sure we have it right. Basically, the 2 of us, Valk and I, are our own strongest critics. But you still need to realize that it's not about us being right or wrong. It's about us having the strongest data / analysis out there. Until someone else presents a similarly in depth case to counter what we say, it's difficult to match the strength of our presentation.

****

Regarding the argument between delay and base damage. This is not something we talk about. We talk about formulas and very basic game mechanics. Rarely to do get into very in-depth application (for example, maxing DPS). There is a huge jump between saying "this is how the game calculates damage" and "this gear set is better than that gear set". For me to come in here to say I have some clairvoyant understanding of this topic would be very arrogant on my part. So I say have an honest debate about it, maybe even test a bit. If the test sucks, call out the flaws and come up with a better one. In the long run the truth comes out. Hurray science.

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Originally Posted by Kaeko

Regarding the argument between delay and base damage. This is not something we talk about. We talk about formulas and very basic game mechanics. Rarely to do get into very in-depth application (for example, maxing DPS). There is a huge jump between saying "this is how the game calculates damage" and "this gear set is better than that gear set". For me to come in here to say I have some clairvoyant understanding of this topic would be very arrogant on my part. So I say have an honest debate about it, maybe even test a bit. If the test sucks, call out the flaws and come up with a better one. In the long run the truth comes out. Hurray science.

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Thank you for clarifying it. All i was trying to say is that the tests do not reflect the arguments ppl are trying to make here. You said it a lot better than me, hopefully this will put an end to ppl misusing test results. Nice to hear the tester themselves clarify the meaning of their results.

EDIT: Btw I have to say excellent work, testing is a lot and i mean a LOT of time/effort. I really just want the low delay things to be tested first before ppl call foul. I didnt think i was making an unreasonable argument but apparently I was being nonsensical according to some ppl.

As a Mnk in the Maelstrom I get to wear pirate hooks. PIRATE HOOKS people! All mathematical calculations are now irrelevent.

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Originally Posted by Shorty

I don't think any body can say with certainty that the Garuda weapons have the same stat cap as Ifrit weapons because no extensive tests have been done on it yet. Until we can test and confirm a proper stat cap and can compare those with Moogle and Ifrit, arguing is pretty pointless...

Hell, SE could make these weapons have a hidden effect that says: improves effect from secondary weapon stat. Or I can dream right? ^_^

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when i get some garuda junk ill test them in a couple fights, but im pretty sure they will suck with such low damage stat, a shorter delay wont make up for nerfing your WS with low damage.

that can be true for many jobs, but for mnk, where auto attack it's the biggest source of damage, low delay could be a godsend, even with lesser damage

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

when i get some garuda junk ill test them in a couple fights, but im pretty sure they will suck with such low damage stat, a shorter delay wont make up for nerfing your WS with low damage.

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Big number syndrome is a bad thing in MMOs. More hits = more over all TP = more overall WS over time = More DoT = better performance in certain situations depending on job since DRG for example is reliant on combos for damage, rather than pure raw damage.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Big number syndrome is a bad thing in MMOs. More hits = more over all TP = more overall WS over time = More DoT = better performance in certain situations depending on job since DRG for example is reliant on combos for damage, rather than pure raw damage.

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umm, the big number syndrome is justified by the damage stat proving time and time again to be the most effect stat for dps, i said I would test them if/when i get them so... yea.

the fact remains if you fighting a boss and hte battle is 5 mins long and your cooldowns are 1-3 mins, you want them hitting hard cause youll only get a few chances, more tp wont erase cooldowns.

ya for a job like pld which doesnt do huge dmg hitting faster means more tp to do emnity gain and the stats on it alone are already balls to the wall. and mnk aaawawww i cant wait to have that for monk