As an AST main I couldn't agree more. I don't like the current iteration of it. Like at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesarthim
The whole Balance fishing reason just makes me question SE's design philosophy when it comes to healers. Just remove Balance then or stop catering to raiders every single time. No I play a glorified symbol matching game that doesn't even impact anything.
I also don't understand the whole sect thing. It's okay, I guess, but what if we get a 4th healer? Will we then get a fourth sect? Is that even possible in the current system? It seems so short sighted.
The whole DPS or bust mentality is something I'm against. Make classes fun and interesting and stop cutting abilities just because they don't increase DPS. The whole synergy thing is severely lacking.
Healing is now a state of permanent hatred.
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03-02-2020, 09:04 AMPayadopa
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03-02-2020, 09:27 AMVolkajUltimately ShB's SCH can dish out the numbers, HPS, DPS and mitigation wise. So could SB's WHM. So could a healer with just a GCD version of Assize with no cooldown as its only skill. Technically its all preference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandedblade
And that you had another Aetherflow stack per minute. And that the refresh timers for Bio/Miasma didn't align with everything. And that Cleric Stance (small buff version) existed. And that using Miasma II over Ruin II wasn't always possible and/or the best choice. As I said before, SCH DPS wasn't that deep in the first place (in SB anyway). So removing those small things made a big impact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandedblade
And that those new heals and skills do not use Aetherflow, which changes resource management. Aetherflow management was a really big thing for SB's SCH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandedblade
Small question for you. Did you like SB's WHM? How it played? It seems like how you played SCH, how you saw the class flow differs significantly from what other players saw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandedblade
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03-03-2020, 12:44 AMBrandedbladeI didnt care for SB WHM. I actually did main SCH in SB and only used WHM when I wanted to cheese dungeons with Holy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Volkaj
It doesn't change my opinion even knowing for myself how much more I juggled for damage. I've even admitted the elements I do miss, I would not mind having Miasma and Bane back myself. Im fond of the idea of having dots ticking passively for most of my aoe damage and I focus on healing, but Miasma II was a poorly designed spell that in most optimized situations usurped the intended function of another spell, that being Ruin II. You may call that "fun choices" but I disagree and see it as poor class design. And tbh shadow flare was just a button you pressed once a minute in most situations.
One thing about shb sch design I will die on the hill of is the fact that Ruin II is buffed and AoW replaced Miasma II, which gave those two spells clear defined roles, one as your mobility tool, one as your filler AoE skill. Not "a mobility tool you only used when disengaged from a boss" and "An AoE filler AND optimal weaving tool in most situations"
I was actually discussing this point with a friend. While SCH's dps toolkit prior to shb does give people who want something to juggle something to do, it's at best needless busywork and at worse a noob trap that causes less skilled players to be more distracted from their primary role. I agree that there are ways to give a healer a more complex dps rotation, but everything you just described is not it. -
03-03-2020, 02:09 PMVolkajIt seems like SE is fully on your side about Miasma II and Ruin II, considering that SCH had no spammable AoE skill on SB's release. Miasma II was only added later due to feedback, and it had the probably unintended side-effect of changing SCH's rotation, since it did more damage than Ruin II.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandedblade
Poor design on SE's part? What is good or bad class design is mostly subjective, although some things are clearly bad (literally useless crafter skills spring to mind). Having skills which can fulfill multiple niches at once aren't always bad, see Assize (heal + AoE damage) for example. One thing that cannot be denied is that it gave an effective choice. Using Miasma II wasn't always possible, so it did not completely replace Ruin II as a weaving tool in most content.
As far as "intended function" goes, I, and I would suspect most players, will use the kit I am given how I interpret it should be used. For some it might be to shield every mechanic using Adloquium/Succor and keep Aetherflow for emergencies, for others it might be to be as efficient as possible DPS-wise. I'm not going to try and divine how SE wants me to use these skills. I will base my playstyle on what I want to do and on how the skills actually behave. Not on how SE believes they behave and how SE believes we should use them.
My primary role as a healer (or any other role) is, and will always be, to contribute the maximum of my skills and abilities to the party. If this means spamming healing spells, then so be it. If it means DPSing non-stop, then so be it.
I chose to be a healer because I want this contribution to have the largest "healing" component, and to have the responsibility to keep the party alive. But if there is no healing to be done, there is no healing to be done. I will contribute in another manner.
If I have to DPS 70% of the fight because the boss is not dealing that much damage, then my DPS rotation is not "needless busywork", it is what I need to contribute to the party.
To give a practical example of something that other people here often called needless busywork, consider 5.0 AST's cards. With Divination on a 180s cooldown, laying down 3~6% cards once every 30s that were really hard to see the effect of really felt like you were worrying a lot for what was ultimately a very minor gain. If our DoTs barely had higher potency than our nukes, they would be considered needless busywork as well; lots of effort, very little gain. A good DPS rotation should have weight behind it. Doing it right should feel impactful. SB SCH's DoTs did a good chunk more damage than Broil II, and so did correctly using Miasma II over Ruin II.
From what I can see on the forums, you've been one of the few to truly stand for the current healer design being just as good (bad) as the ones from previous expansions.
I am genuinely curious; what kind of complex rotation would you give to healers?
P.S. Had to cut off the quotes, post was too long. -
03-03-2020, 09:25 PMBrandedbladeI\\'ll use scholar for my example for obvious reasons. The only thing I would add to the current scholar from the old is Miasma and Bane, whether or not Bane should cost aetherflow or just have a medium cooldown is up for debate. Personally I\\'m content with Energy Drain as the "Aetherflow dump" so I wouldnt put that extra pressure on the toolkit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Volkaj
Then I would ofc shave potencies off of Broil, Ruin II, and Art of War to balance it.
The big difference however, isnt necessarily that I would make the dps complicated. The only thing I\\'m adding is the extra button press every few sec and the extra step in the AoE rotation. Pure dps classes can worry about stuff like managing self buffs or chaining skills together.
Rather that I would add mechanics to the dps rotation to reward and incentize your primary function. Healing. The way I\\'d probably do it is take a note from pvp sch and have the dps, primarily the dots, reward the player maintaining them with fae guage, and I would likely, at the risk to nerfing the fairy even more, tie more of their abilities to the fae guage to offset the increase in fae guage gained. Even go so far as to make Aetherpact consume 15-20 guage instead of 10 per tick if the gain in fae guage is too great.
It would be something akin to.
Fey Leeching (Trait)
If a target is afflicted with both of your Bio and Miasma line of spells, the target will also be afflicted with Fey Leeching. This effect will end if one or both effects end on the target.
Fey Leeching effect: upon recieving damage from the scholar\\'s Bio and Miasma damage over time effects, the scholar will have a 50% chancd gain 5 fae aether. This effect cannot trigger more then twice (possibly thrice) every 3 seconds.
The cap on it is to increase the incentive of Bane, spreading your dots to double (or triple, if doubling is too weak) your fae guage for more indirect healing during large pulls, Without making it to where you instantly fill the guage after bane-ing a large trash pack.
The biggest flaw I can see is that this could potentially cause issues with fae guage reaching 100. So it would likely need a dump skill. Rather then add a new spell. I\\'ll throw people a bone and give them a proc.
Meltdown: When your fae aether is at 80 or more, Ruin II will be upgraded to Meltdown
Meltdown: Instant, on the gcd
Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 220
Additional effect: Refresh the duration of your Bio and Miasma damage over time effects to their maximum value
Fae Gauge cost: 30
Essentially if you gain too much fae guage, Your Ruin II becomes Meltdown and gives you an option to not only dump excess fae guage but to also quickly reapply your dots. So essentially a long fight will be less about constantly maintaining dots, but rather maintaining your fae aether and balancing it out for using fairy skills will keeping it from capping without needless over healing. Hence why I only made Meltdown a tiny potency gain, to make hording your resources for meltdown still a loss compared to Broil for dps.
Is this more complex then current sch? Yes, but overall if a healer is going to be complex, I\\'d rather the complexity build into their healing rather then give them a full blown dps rotation. -
03-03-2020, 09:35 PMLiam_HarperI'd certainly like another few dps abilities, but this is definitely one issue. We spend so little of our time healing. This can be an issue in many games when you overgear content or learn the fights well, but never so much as in ff14. And a lot of the time the damage we heal is so predictable. A raidwide or a tankbuster that we have a set oGcd ready for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Volkaj
The most enjoyable moments for me as a healer are usually at the start of a tier where people are getting hit by everything, dying and you're putting your full toolkit to use and are being rewarded for it. Unlike tanking or dps which has a very set rotation, you're constantly reacting to an unpredictable situation. But that fades fast after week 1.
They need to stop worrying they'll overtax us. It's hilarious their excuse for no Mythic+ dungeons was because it would be too stressful for the healer when we're practically begging for something to heal. It's clear that attitude applies to other content too. It makes it worse that they insult us by riddling everything with Piety we'll never need, because of their design. I'd like to see things like more 1hp Doom mechanics, more heavy Bleeds that need monitoring, stacks and markers that really hurt, raidwides happening more often, even the occasional rng hit so we can't leave someone at 50% for 30 seconds because we know the next raidwide isn't coming soon, and so on. Healing toolkits are extremely strong, let us use them. -
03-04-2020, 03:38 AMKummiesIm sorry but I disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crushnight
a 'meh' card is clutter to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crushnight
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03-04-2020, 10:34 AMtinythinkerBecause I'm worse at everything else. As a healer I can grasp the basics of what to do by looking at health bars. As a WHM I can easily find the right button for doing what I need to do and even correct some of my own mistakes and lapses.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimGale
(I get the feeling I'm the type of player that is blamed for why many people hate healer jobs or find them boring right now. That's not being defensive, just honest. I know WHM well enough, but I still struggle sometimes in whatever dungeons are part of whichever expansion is current. I don't just hit Heal 3 or Medica 2 all of the time, etc., but I find I am generally stressed playing a healer just doing roulettes. It sometimes feels less like a fun challenge and more like a necessary evil running them.) -
03-04-2020, 12:44 PMVolkajIf I may give some feedback:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandedblade
1. Tying DoT ticks to Fae Gauge is a neat idea, as it incentivizes keeping your DoTs up on the target. However, it means that to achieve theoretical maximum healing efficiency you have to do some DPS. In any practical scenario where you need to pump maximum healing though, this won't matter because the GCD you cannot afford to spend refreshing DoTs will bring more healing than what would've been gained through the DoT tick -> Fae Gauge.
2. Making it RNG-based, however, is a bad idea. The issue with this is that heal checks tend to be rather tight and very, very scripted. If RNG gives you zero Fae Gauge procs while you badly needed that gauge for a tank regen at some point, you're gonna be in trouble. Realistically this means you're gonna plan for the lowest common denominator, which is zero (or at least very few) procs. This weakens the buff you get from it considerably.
3. Meltdown should absolutely be a separate skill. Let me explain why. Suppose you increase Fey Union's gauge cost to 20. The tank is about to take serious continuous damage, so you prepare to Ruin II + Fey Union. Except your RNG DoT ticks you over 80 gauge. Your Ruin II becomes Meltdown, shaving off 30 gauge immediately. Instead of having 4 Fey Union ticks on the tank you now only have 2. You need to have control over the effect otherwise Fae Gauge becomes wildly inconsistent.
4. Even if Meltdown is a separate skill, you're underestimating the large potency gain you'd get from being able to refresh both DoTs with just one GCD on top of the extra 220 potency. Since Fae Gauge would be less consistent, there would be no fixed points where you'd end up having it available, but it would almost always be a solid DPS gain over Broil III. It would also act as a solid incentive to not use any Fae Gauge abilities to have it proc as often as possible.
There has to be content where complex healing kits are needed for this to be enjoyable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandedblade
And outside ultimate, there just isn't. Even Savage doesn't deal enough damage to warrant the healing kits we have now. -
03-04-2020, 09:40 PMBrandedbladeAh thanks, you did raise up some points. Primarily with meltdown. I admittedly threw that potency together out of thin air. The idea of Meltdown was supposed to be that it was a loss to cast over Broil outside of snapshotting your dots in a theoretical scenario where you'd want to choose so. I made it a proc primarily to reduce button bloat, but I didnt consider the need to use Ruin II for weaving in a scenario where your using Fey Union.Quote:
Originally Posted by Volkaj
The intention of Meltdown was to address the issue of not wasting excess fae aether in less heal intensive situations and to create a loop of your fae aether management rewarding you with easier dot management.
As terrible as it may sound, I actually realized that a system like this could technically work with the current dps toolkit, something like.
"When you successfully strike an enemy afflicted by your Biolysis with Broil, add 5 Fae Aether to your Faerie Guage
When you deal damage with Art of War, add 2 Fae Aether to the Faerie Guage for each enemy afflicted by your Biolysis effect struck, you cannot gain more then 10 Fae Aether per cast of Art of War in this manner."
Perhaps instead of adding back Miasma and Bane, only add back Bane and use the button that would've been for Miasma on Meltdown. It would suck for people who want to juggle multiple dots, but at the same time I'm more interested in adding a loop and synergy concerning resource and cooldown management then simply bringing back old sch.
Overall, as fun as it is to speculate on how I would change scholar or other healers. I also do not find them so bad to play that I feel miserable and want to take said misery out on other players. I'm still of the mindset scholar is at its core a healer built around cooldown and resource management and my hope going forward is that if they do fix the dps toolkit, They go more in the route of the dps contributing to said loop as opposed to simply reverting all the changes.