Viera head gear -_-

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Did they explain why they couldn't just drill 2 holes in hats/helmets/hoods for the viera?

Was that just a design choice? If that's the case, pretty dumb choice.

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In fact, I recall ARR gear having a "tail hole" or otherwise gap for miqo'te tails to go through. You could see it more clearly with tail-less races, as the hole was pretty noticable in the BCOB gear. At some point it seems they stopped caring and now tails just clip through, so it seems like they just don't care enough for ear holes, either.

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

In fact, I recall ARR gear having a "tail hole" or otherwise gap for miqo'te tails to go through. You could see it more clearly with tail-less races, as the hole was pretty noticable in the BCOB gear. At some point it seems they stopped caring and now tails just clip through, so it seems like they just don't care enough for ear holes, either.

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Game was made with love and care back then, it has more depth. Nowadays they're just can't keep up with everything, with how little they have.

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Originally Posted by yukiiyuki

Game was made with love and care back then, it has more depth. Nowadays they're just can't keep up with everything, with how little they have.

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Some of the tail holes actually look pretty terrible. The haubergeons just have a vertical slice taken out of the skirt part, and if bliauds have ruffled edges then the ruffle sticks out oddly as it goes up and around the tail notch.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Some of the tail holes actually look pretty terrible. The haubergeons just have a vertical slice taken out of the skirt part, and if bliauds have ruffled edges then the ruffle sticks out oddly as it goes up and around the tail notch.

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So instead of fixing or finding a new way, just making none is a way to go. Well, less work to do is a good thing, with that logic it got us to half baked new races

I mean, there's worse solutions to the tail problem.

http://i.imgur.com/6MEsXYK.png

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Did they explain why they couldn't just drill 2 holes in hats/helmets/hoods for the viera?

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Prob because it would require them to massively alter and redesign models of lots of head gear as well as the hair models along with w/e bangs system they have set up. Not as simple as "drill a hole in it".

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

Prob because it would require them to massively alter and redesign models of lots of head gear as well as the hair models along with w/e bangs system they have set up. Not as simple as "drill a hole in it".

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Exactly right, even if they drilled holes in the hat we couldn't equip them because our ears are hard-coded as permanent hats and occupy the same slot. They'd have to go back and alter the hair+hat+ears, and while they do that for Miqo those are much smaller and less intrusive in terms of the positioning of the ears. Anything we can wear now either completely removes the hair (cowls) or is small enough that it could feasibly occupy a different slot like mid-face.

Don't get me wrong, I still think both races look great. But none of this would be so frustrating if we got anything to make up for it, but as it stands now we have less of everything. 4 Ear types and a slider and fur patterns is "highly customizable"? I don't think.

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Originally Posted by Yencat

Exactly right, even if they drilled holes in the hat we couldn't equip them because our ears are hard-coded as permanent hats and occupy the same slot.

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Whatever's going on, I don't think that's it.

Cowls (which are incompatible with hats for any race) don't hide Viera ears.

I think it might be to do with how their hair is modelled - possibly with whatever underlying issue apparently stops them from being able to share designs with the other races, but also that they might not have been built to turn off the upper part of the hair when hats are equipped. Some of the fluffier Viera hairstyles would probably collapse down rather oddly.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Whatever's going on, I don't think that's it.

Cowls (which are incompatible with hats for any race) don't hide Viera ears.

I think it might be to do with how their hair is modelled - possibly with whatever underlying issue apparently stops them from being able to share designs with the other races, but also that they might not have been built to turn off the upper part of the hair when hats are equipped. Some of the fluffier Viera hairstyles would probably collapse down rather oddly.

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I suspect hair is assigned to a different slot so it gets removed in favor of the cowl, while the ears remain in the hat slot. You're right though that "fluffing down" some Viera hairstyles would make them look strange, but this is clearly not a concern since they never intended us to wear hats anyway.

I don't really care about the hats anymore because this was known from the start, and there's no elegant solution to make most hats work. But 8 hairstyles total with a fringe/helmet added to double that amount is way too few. By all means add more circlets/hairpins/adornments, but please just give us more hair to choose from lol

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Originally Posted by Yencat

I suspect hair is assigned to a different slot so it gets removed in favor of the cowl, while the ears remain in the hat slot. You're right though that "fluffing down" some Viera hairstyles would make them look strange, but this is clearly not a concern since they never intended us to wear hats anyway.

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I don't think ears are in "a slot" at all - or rather they have their own separate slot that has nothing to do with equipment, but may be programmed to interact with it.

In character design settings they're equivalent to Miqo'te/Auri/Hrothgar tails and Elezen/Lalafell ears - a choice of shape designs plus a length slider.

I wouldn't mind the restrictions on the hats currently if I had all of my purchased/acquired hairstyles available to me. I feel that is a huge missed opportunity on the dev team's part not making sure that anything paid for on the mog station being available to Hrothgar and Viera. If you paid money for it, you should have it available to you, full stop. I can only hope that is addressed within this expansion cycle...

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

I find it a bit disturbing that NEW ITEMS aren't made to fit Viera. I hope this changes and that we get some relief soon. 5.2 needs to be a turning point in the availability of hairstyles and other related items. I find it hard to understand why it's taking so long at this point.

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There are multiple reasons why it's taking so long.

1. Viera and Hrothgar were never meant to be added to the game but Yoshi said screw it and added them because people wanted them (Mainly Viera).
2. I'm sure the team is stretched thin with other titles being worked on and released like FF7 Remake and the next expansion for FF14.
3. Headgear for a race that was never meant to be added to the game is on the bottom of the bucket list over content/expansion/other titles.
4. Same as 3, but gender counterparts are bottom of bucket list as well.

Short story. It's why only 1 gender was released for these races and not everything is right. They were never meant to be added because it takes time and resources. Head management said no. Yoshi said do it anyway. So basically people are complaining about something that they were lucky to even get.

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

There are multiple reasons why it's taking so long.

1. Viera and Hrothgar were never meant to be added to the game but Yoshi said screw it and added them because people wanted them (Mainly Viera).
2. I'm sure the team is stretched thin with other titles being worked on and released like FF7 Remake and the next expansion for FF14.
3. Headgear for a race that was never meant to be added to the game is on the bottom of the bucket list over content/expansion/other titles.
4. Same as 3, but gender counterparts are bottom of bucket list as well.

Short story. It's why only 1 gender was released for these races and not everything is right. They were never meant to be added because it takes time and resources. Head management said no. Yoshi said do it anyway. So basically people are complaining about something that they were lucky to even get.

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Sorry, but what? Of course they were "meant to be added" or they wouldn't have added them. People ask for plenty of things they never end up adding to the game, and sometimes they even say they will and only half do it (Egi glamours) They didn't whip up these races in an afternoon to push them out the door last minute.

No headgear is in part a design choice and a technical difficulty in their incredibly rigid character creator, I don't doubt they're stretched thin for resources/manpower but they shouldn't get a pass because of that.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I mean, there's worse solutions to the tail problem.

http://i.imgur.com/6MEsXYK.png

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Hey, boner tails was a cool idea

I disagree. Aside from just looking awkward, it also doesn't move at all, which is rather jarring with the overall energetic expressiveness of female Miqo'te. Arguably worse for Au Ra, just because their tails all have hard scales on top, so clearly they can't bend upwards like that, not to mention being compressed in size like that....

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

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1 - We have evidence of plannings for Viera, though several factors led to those plans being shelved. And Yoshida has commented on how before Shadowbringers the dev team was thinking of adding Ronsos. Viera was bundled up due to fan demands. So yes, at some point in development, BOTH these races were considered and meant to be added. Even if they didn't come as intended, or in the timespan that was intended, it still does not nullify this.

2 - The team may be stretched thin (Square Enix does relocate human resources from one team to another. This is theorized to be why we don't have Carbuncle glamours, as the person who made them may no longer be working in the team), but this does not excuse them. If all you're thinking of is the future but never think of the present, you're only going to fall into the same spiral 1.x did, where you release things for the sake of releasing them, hoping future content somehow saves you. And we both know full well how that turned out. And this is an MMO. It's the sort of game that is both alive, active and constantly maintained. We're not at the level of FF11 where the servers are up but no new content is pushed. Resources must be allocated and are often relocated, yes, but they have to be aware of what the scope of their projects require.


3 - So? You're hiding behind the premiss that "oh these races were never meant to be added", despite plans for them being made public, even if some were shelved or changed along development. But again: focus on the present. The races have been released, have they not? So this argument has no reason to still be touted; the races are here, they deserve as much attention as any other race. Otherwise, what, are we playing with Limited Races now? As far as I'm aware, such was not advertised. Now that that's out of the way, we can also point out how there has been another race included to the game 2 expansions prior. Au Ra got the same level of attention, albeit many people still called it shoddy on account to clipping problems. Nor was the game as big as it currently is. Short story, "it wasn't meant to be added" does not excuse a lack of trying. And trust me, people are grateful that they got these races to begin with. But that doesn't exempt them from criticism.

4 - Gender counterparts can be added later. Thing is, you're lumping two entirely different scopes. Gender counterparts, as the development team has already expressed, can take quite the train of thought and resources in development. We know that it was a headache for them to make concepts for male viera because their ideas could potentially not be well received. Not to mention all the work making models and animations for these would be, in comparison to hats. At worst, Hrothgar heads would give them a harder time. But even then, nothing is without solution.

I see a lot of people complaining that others are complaining too much about this topic. But people have every single right to criticize it, especially if the flaws persist. It feels like that sort of attitude only covers up more and more mistakes, by saying others are doing a bad thing by reacting negatively and feeling bad for not being able to access content for so long. Particularly after the community having shown support and enjoyment for these races. In the end, that sort of attitude only provides shelter.
And often, this is from people that don't even play these races to feel bothered. And even if they did and were fine with the constant lack of things to these races, it doesn't mean the rest of the people around them should be as well. And if they point it out, what, can't they complain? Can't they ask for a more complete game?

I love the devs. I respect the everliving hell out of these devs in particular. Yoshida most of all, particularly after the way FF14 has been growing after the way the game initially launched. I don't think I have ever seen a developer quite like him. But he's not God; he's human, he's flawed and he can make mistakes. And like any other human, there will be people pointing out those mistakes and disagreeing with his choices. They're no saints for having given us races that the community has been asking for for a long while. At best, they're pretty cool people and deserve respect and understanding. At the end of the day, they made a conscious decision to include them, did they not?

So as much as I actually do love the dev team and am thankful for all they have done and plan to do, I, as a player and their fan, as a human person just as much as them, can insist for them to focus on trying to improve these races a bit more. Because it doesn't look too well to have them singled out for so long after the launch. Am I lucky to have them? I guess... as lucky as I am to play all the rest of the game, I feel. But then again, I don't feel like I'm enjoying these races as much as the rest of the game. The lack of stuff for them and the way Hrothgar in particular are feel far too much.

So yeah. Would I give up some content in the future to have what we currently have be improved upon? Absolutely. Because I'm not playing that future content yet. I am, however, playing the current content. And the current content, as much as it was likely to be a pain for them to add and we should be (and we are) grateful that they did manage to give it to us, has flaws. Flaws that do require attention.

But oh well. Just like everyone else, I'm just some rando on the internet. It won't change anyone's minds nor will it be an inspirational thing to cause change. All this is is really just me trying to understand why it is that people are so bothered. Is it because it's persistant? If it is, then see it from our perspective. This is a persistant problem. One that is far beyond some optional content; to play the game you NEED a character. And I'm sorry, but I'd rather play Hrothgar or Viera (or what have you), and don't feel too keen on Lalafell (or what have you). And knowing that I'm essentially limiting myself out of stuff just because I don't care much for all the other races... well. It feels bad man.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

All this is is really just me trying to understand why it is that people are so bothered.

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I don't think it's people being "bothered" so much as they're just people going " ... Shrug?".

Like I read things saying "It's been 5-6-7+months and we still haven't been given new hairs! WTF?!?"

Anyone who cares to keep up on the topic would know that they flat out told us that yeah, they're working on new hairs and new Hrothgar manes and faces. But they would come after/ at a slower pace than the hair for OTHER races. We have only, in the most recent BIG patch, been given new hair for other races for the first time this expac .. right? So according to info that's out there for everyone to look into the clock only starts now. The next patch would be the first time you could legit expect it given what they said.

"Where are my hats and helms? Why don't NEW hats and helms work?"

They've made it clear that this is a design decision for the races from the very conceptual stage, these are no "flaws" to them. They decided to go the unique head route and told us there would be head gear restrictions from the start ... we have more than enough proof that they don't intend to make hats and helms work.

Like, I get being disappointed .. I do. If you like a race and want these things you're gonna want them sooner and not later. But they have laid out all this stuff months ago so .. shrug? Not sure what all there is to say with what we got.

What baffles me with is the fact people actually defend Square Enix for this practice. I mean, seriously, what the heck? A game in this category should shine.
Where is the difference of bashing Electronic Arts for half-assed games and paid DLCs that add stuff to the game that should be there since start and a game where you pay milestone purchases (expansions, base game) and a monthly fee that basically still half-ass things and want you to wait (which means nothing but paying more in the meantime?) while also piling up stuff in a cash shop for ridiculous prices? To be honest, we are on EA level, if not a tad worse here.

I highly enjoy Viera, despite me being a Hardcore Lalaracist. I am always looking for some tall amazon with fluffy ears when I enter a party. And what is going on here is an awful amount of slacking. This is a high-publicity AAA title from one of the most known, long-ongoing Franchise, and they are stuck like this for Y E A R S! If it's cheaper, or no cash shop, okay. But the amount of monthly income is insane compared to what we get back.

Whatever the FFXIV team actually does is high quality. Man, I just adored the Red Mage animations in party screenshot thingy "frame by frame" and it's insane how each finger is modelled, how we juggle our rapiers and the crystal with each spell, how our clothing flares out when we fight, how our plume on the Tricorne bobs. This is not real-life physics (not even nVidia PhysX^^) but all set up by a rigger. It's eye-candy. On the other side, this game gets stuck on stupid things. Maybe don't do those crappy cross-events and spent those ressources into getting us them huge female lions and male rabbits for repopulation!


We saved the game from a massive failure, and it rose like Phoenix from the ashes. But apparently, they are fed up with money again too much and are chilling on their laurels.



Are Japanese companies always that kind of a mess??

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

I find it a bit disturbing that NEW ITEMS aren't made to fit Viera. I hope this changes and that we get some relief soon. 5.2 needs to be a turning point in the availability of hairstyles and other related items. I find it hard to understand why it's taking so long at this point.

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I just feel like either they're doing a lot for Hrothgar and Viera....or nothing at all. If they were they could at least be releasing stuff little by little unless they wanted to make it all available at once. However, there's no point in that. SO I just actually think they haven't been working on anything. I do hope we see something for 5.2 I think this is where the relic weapons begin and it has something to do with Hrothgar homeland so at least add something for them.

Get over it already!
You knew you'd never get headgear before you race changed! As well, 95% of everyone doesn't even SHOW their headgear, they just hide it. Of those that show their head gear, its like 5-10 different things everyone glamours too.

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

Get over it already!

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No.

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

You knew you'd never get headgear before you race changed!

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No, we didn't.

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

As well, 95% of everyone doesn't even SHOW their headgear, they just hide it. Of those that show their head gear, its like 5-10 different things everyone glamours too.

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No, it isn't.

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

Get over it already!
You knew you'd never get headgear before you race changed! As well, 95% of everyone doesn't even SHOW their headgear, they just hide it. Of those that show their head gear, its like 5-10 different things everyone glamours too.

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Not so. We were under the impression that they *would* be fixing the headgear for these races after their availability, and as now established races within the game, do they not deserve the same care as the previous races have received? The answer is yes, they certainly do.

And common glamours have absolutely nothing to do with it. The point is to have equal options as everyone else has, and that is not asking much, honestly.

Back to the game, resubbed, and now back to the forums (I'M BACK!). The usual viera thread on the front page, glad to see.

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

Like I read things saying "It's been 5-6-7+months and we still haven't been given new hairs! WTF?!?"

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5 - 6 - 7+ months is a really long time for something as little as hairs. I have given up on the notion of headgear, they won't make unique models, the best viera will get is clipping through the top of a hood. The least they can do is hairs. We haven't seen a single one. Not one. No headgear, no hairs. Baseline since last year. It's ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

5 - 6 - 7+ months is a really long time for something as little as hairs.

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Like I said ... *shrug?

What do you want me to say? They said looong ago that they're working on hairs and manes and Hrothgar faces but that it would come at a slower pace/ after hair for the other races. (so "please be patient" I guess)

Thing is they add hair very rarely and seem to treat it as a carrot at the end of a stick to encourage people to do content seeing as play time is where they get paid. Looking at SB and SHB they tie it to big updates like HoH, Eureka, Ishgard stuff and as a reward for completing a 24men raid ... these are fairly far spread out through out the expac. So after this expac came out we've seen ... exactly 1 new hair style added and it was in the most recent big patch which also happened to be months after the release of the Expac.

Is hair a "little thing"? I couldn't tell, I have no clue how much time it demands or how hard it is to add to the game. I'd love for them to be like GW2 and add in a ton of hair styles at the start of every expac ... but in GW2 you need to use a hair kit that's on the cash shop to change your hair so there's actual money reasons why they would add a ton of hair to the game. To the FF14 team, in their rigid gear grind patch release set up, adding new hair often may be way less important than new glam or gear or events or any number of things and they prob would want to get the new hair for the vast majority of players out before having people hammer out or release hair for these races as every new hair style is a striking increase in quality for the most part.

Soo yeah ... you get X after Y. This has been known for the longest. Just so happens Y comes very rarely. I'm not personally happy with the rate at which Y comes so I get the disappointment for people who want X but I have no clue why people would fool themselves into expecting X BEFORE Y when they said flat out that it comes after Y. Not sure what else there is to say about that.

Maybe they're saving them for release all at once and when they DO release them there will be a good amount more than "1"?
*Shrugs

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I have given up on the notion of headgear

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Not sure why you had "hope" the in first place, they were always gonna have head gear restrictions. Not sure where this idea that they were gonna have "hats and helms work" came from. That was always pie in the sky, at this point not only would they have to remodel and redesign all current hats and helms to fit Viera (no one ever seems to pose a solid design solution to the problem that is Viera ears and the many hats in this game beyond having it just clip) ... they would also have to alter every current and future hair style to have a "hat" version.

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Originally Posted by SockOutlet

If they were they could at least be releasing stuff little by little unless they wanted to make it all available at once. However, there's no point in that..

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There is a point for that, it's called Hrothgar.

Unless they make all NEW manes work for all Hrothgar heads they can't just plop out 1 new mane and ruin the evens-stevens thing they have going on (cause then 1 head would have 6 possible hair styles compared to the other 3 that only have 4 each). I personally expect 4 new Unique Viera hairs with "bang alts" and each of the 4 Hrothgar heads to get 1 new unique mane and their "Mane alt". When ever they add the new Hrothgar head or heads I'd expect them to be given the same number of manes as any other head and for that increase to be reflected in Viera hairs.

(Some people would curse their connection but I think it saves the Viera from mediocrity seeing how most don't realize just how few old common hair styles would work with the Viera head design principles. Having both races get new unique hair will result in some much better looks than grabbing the hand full of old outdated hairs that happen not look terrible with Viera ears and telling people to be happy with their whack straw hair)

Like they said, Viera are never gonna have as much hair as the other races ... but I see no reason to think they aren't doing what they said personally.

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

Thing is they add hair very rarely and seem to treat it as a carrot at the end of a stick to encourage people to do content seeing as play time is where they get paid. Looking at SB and SHB they tie it to big updates like HoH, Eureka, Ishgard stuff and as a reward for completing a 24men raid ... these are fairly far spread out through out the expac. So after this expac came out we've seen ... exactly 1 new hair style added and it was in the most recent big patch which also happened to be months after the release of the Expac.

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It's a carrot on a stick to do content for new hair for races that already have access to the full catalogue, we shouldn't have to jump through any hoops to get more than the 8 styles we currently have and however many Hrothgar get.

Hopefully thursday they will have something to show, or at the very least address it when we could expect an update. Fingers crossed.

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Originally Posted by Yencat

It's a carrot on a stick to do content for new hair for races that already have access to the full catalogue, we shouldn't have to jump through any hoops to get more than the 8 styles we currently have and however many Hrothgar get.

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Like I said ..

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and they prob would want to get the new hair for the vast majority of players out before having people hammer out or release hair for these races as every new hair style is a striking increase in quality for the most part.

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So *Shrug
I don't think they're gonna have the hair link to anything like HoH unless they allow you to get a Fanti potion when running w/e content as a Hrothgar so it wouldn't be something you have to jump through hoops for, would likely be something you just have to wait for.

You can disagree with them wanting to release stuff all the other players could enjoy first but that's the nature of things. Best to do as you said and look forward to the next LL. My Hrothgar alt is looking forward to any developments as well.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

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Originally Posted by Yencat

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I don't think both of you understand. Let me re-quote again. It doesn't matter if plans were made public. If Head Management says "No don't do this because it costs more resources and time" and Yoshi does it anyway because fans wanted it it doesn't mean that they "Were meant to be added". Time and resources. That's the main problem when creating new playable races. They could have easily made a non-playable beast race to replace Viera and Hrothgar in the story and it would save them time and resources and not release what is out now. And Yoshi also specifically stated that the problem with creating new playable races was, oh let me say it again, Time and Resources. And he said this like a while back in previous letters and was reluctant to add another playable race yet 2.

But when they do try to add stuff for fans and please you guys, You still complain regardless no matter what they do. No patience.

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

I don't think both of you understand. Let me re-quote again. It doesn't matter if plans were made public. If Head Management says "No don't do this because it costs more resources and time" and Yoshi does it anyway because fans wanted it it doesn't mean that they "Were meant to be added". Time and resources. That's the main problem when creating new playable races. They could have easily made a non-playable beast race to replace Viera and Hrothgar in the story and it would save them time and resources and not release what is out now. And Yoshi also specifically stated that the problem with creating new playable races was, oh let me say it again, Time and Resources. And he said this like a while back in previous letters and was reluctant to add another playable race yet 2.

But when they do try to add stuff for fans and please you guys, You still complain regardless no matter what they do. No patience.

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So we should just be thankful whenever they release unfinished content? I think you misunderstand something about the consumer-company relationship. It's not the customer's job to be understanding, make excuses for the company and hope for the product to be finished some time in their life. It's up to the company to deliver a satisfying and finished product. Of course it reflects badly on them if they release unfinished features, people are allowed to be disappointed, we're paying for this. It's their job to keep the customer satisfied. Stop being a corporate apologist, they're not paying you anything to make excuses for them.

More related to the topic at hand, the least they could do is provide us some updates, tell people that stuff is being worked on. This "telling people that stuff will be added at some point and then never mentioning it again" approach is completely unacceptable and only serves to make people upset.

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Originally Posted by Sheriyana

So we should just be thankful whenever they release unfinished content? I think you misunderstand something about the consumer-company relationship. It's not the customer's job to be understanding, make excuses for the company and hope for the product to be finished some time in their life. It's up to the company to deliver a satisfying and finished product. Of course it reflects badly on them if they release unfinished features, people are allowed to be disappointed, we're paying for this. It's their job to keep the customer satisfied. Stop being a corporate apologist, they're not paying you anything to make excuses for them.

More related to the topic at hand, the least they could do is provide us some updates, tell people that stuff is being worked on. This "telling people that stuff will be added at some point and then never mentioning it again" approach is completely unacceptable and only serves to make people upset.

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Took the words right out of my mouth. I was going to post something like this, but kept going AFK or doing something in-game. Totally agree - except to SE, at least if I am remembering this correctly, Viera/hrothgar ARE finished.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Took the words right out of my mouth. I was going to post something like this, but kept going AFK or doing something in-game. Totally agree - except to SE, at least if I am remembering this correctly, Viera/hrothgar ARE finished.

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Yeah, of course they don't see them as unfinished, that would mean they're admitting fault and that's bad PR.

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Originally Posted by Sheriyana

Yeah, of course they don't see them as unfinished, that would mean they're admitting fault and that's bad PR.

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Well, not just that, but I truly believe that they think these are finished half races, and are content in them just being "limited". Which means, they have no urgency in "completing" something that is supposed to be "limited" in the first place.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Well, not just that, but I truly believe that they think these are finished half races, and are content in them just being "limited". Which means, they have no urgency in "completing" something that is supposed to be "limited" in the first place.

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You're right on that too, yeah. I was pretty upset initially about the gender locking in this way too, they made such a point of removing all the gender locked races when moving from 1.0 to 2.0 but now they're suddenly fine with releasing gender locked races again, like why would they be okay with going backwards. They had been doing well with being more inclusive but then they just throw it all away.

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

I don't think both of you understand. Let me re-quote again. It doesn't matter if plans were made public. If Head Management says "No don't do this because it costs more resources and time" and Yoshi does it anyway because fans wanted it it doesn't mean that they "Were meant to be added". Time and resources. That's the main problem when creating new playable races. They could have easily made a non-playable beast race to replace Viera and Hrothgar in the story and it would save them time and resources and not release what is out now. And Yoshi also specifically stated that the problem with creating new playable races was, oh let me say it again, Time and Resources. And he said this like a while back in previous letters and was reluctant to add another playable race yet 2.

But when they do try to add stuff for fans and please you guys, You still complain regardless no matter what they do. No patience.

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You can't be serious with this. Do you think Yoshida just goes rogue like some sort of champion for the people adding stuff without approval? I'm sure he has some leeway and sway in the company, but when the bean counters and higher ups say no they do mean no and it doesn't happen.

If they don't plan to fully support new races or it's too difficult; stop adding them! But now they've added them so is it really such a grave sin people are critical of the choices they made? I'm sure Hrothgar players are beyond grateful paying 7 euros everytime they want to change their hair, how dare they. So impatient.

Nobody is calling for pitchforks, tar and feathers so why not let people complain and commiserate on the Official Forums where the feedback might actually reach them?

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Originally Posted by Yencat

You can't be serious with this. Do you think Yoshida just goes rogue like some sort of champion for the people adding stuff without approval? I'm sure he has some leeway and sway in the company, but when the bean counters and higher ups say no they do mean no and it doesn't happen.

If they don't plan to fully support new races or it's too difficult; stop adding them! But now they've added them so is it really such a grave sin people are critical of the choices they made? I'm sure Hrothgar players are beyond grateful paying 7 euros everytime they want to change their hair, how dare they. So impatient.

Nobody is calling for pitchforks, tar and feathers so why not let people complain and commiserate on the Official Forums where the feedback might actually reach them?

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Well said! Sure you can try to understand why they did what they did but that doesn't mean you can't criticize their choices.

Personally I think they should have focused on making Viera a fully complete race and left Hrothgar for 6.0. They were setting up for Viera in the Return to Ivalice series, Hrothgar just came out of nowhere. They could have focused on setting up for Hrothgar in the 5.X series to give them a proper introduction as well. No one could have been disappointed if Hrothgar hadn't released either since there was no reason to expect them. Also it really shows that Hrothgar came out of nowhere, the lack of customization options is pretty apparent... I'm not even against Hrothgar, I think people would have been much happier getting a full race with no gender locks and more customization options over whatever this sad excuse of a playable race we were given.

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Originally Posted by Sheriyana

You're right on that too, yeah. I was pretty upset initially about the gender locking in this way too, they made such a point of removing all the gender locked races when moving from 1.0 to 2.0 but now they're suddenly fine with releasing gender locked races again, like why would they be okay with going backwards. They had been doing well with being more inclusive but then they just throw it all away.

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Well, Yoshida I think said it himself. I wish I could find the quote, I am paraphrasing. This was going to be their "last chance" to add any other races, so they wanted to add a beast race since players had been wanting one, and they included viera as well since it was a fan favorite. They have no plans currently, last I read, for adding male viera/female hrothgar, because in adding these it would significantly slow their patch schedule.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Well, Yoshida I think said it himself. I wish I could find the quote, I am paraphrasing. This was going to be their "last chance" to add any other races, so they wanted to add a beast race since players had been wanting one, and they included viera as well since it was a fan favorite. They have no plans currently, last I read, for adding male viera/female hrothgar, because in adding these it would significantly slow their patch schedule.

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I remember hearing something along those lines too. I just wish they could have done Viera and Hrothgar justice, it's not really a great way to end making new playable races with throwing out two quarter finished races. I mean I guess it's still better that we got them over not getting anything at all but it's still disappointing even so. I wish they'd show us that they're working on expanding them, now it really does feel like they're fine leaving them as is. Just be happy you get to eat the scraps, you're all crazy expecting a full meal. I guess it's more important to add more fishing content or whatever. And before someone points it out, yes, I know it's most likely not the same people working on making fisher content that would be working on a playable race.

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Originally Posted by Sheriyana

So we should just be thankful whenever they release unfinished content? I think you misunderstand something about the consumer-company relationship. It's not the customer's job to be understanding, make excuses for the company and hope for the product to be finished some time in their life. It's up to the company to deliver a satisfying and finished product. Of course it reflects badly on them if they release unfinished features, people are allowed to be disappointed, we're paying for this. It's their job to keep the customer satisfied. Stop being a corporate apologist, they're not paying you anything to make excuses for them.

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This sounds like non-sense.
"Unfinished"? I what way? What you call "unfinished", be it genders or hair or head gear, is literally a design choice that resulted in a compromise to stay true to their vision for these races. They never said that all head gear or hairs would ever work for Viera.

Sure, it's not your job to be a corporate shill and it's perfectly fine to be disappointed with something and express that but when you complain about something it adds more weight to your words when you take the time to actually understand what you're whining about.

Like, from CatBois to highlander Women to Femroe to Draggos we know that they are perfectly able to ADD new player character models that wear all head gear and have hair styles work. What's the difference here? Welp, not only is every new character model harder to make than the last because of compounding work loads (meaning that they do have a max number of character models they can support with the time and resources on hand and the game has way more gear and emotes than it did in ARR) but now, for the first time ever, they have models that break the systems the game has been using from the start from when it was a dumpster-fire of a game. At no point in most of this game's history did they have to consider making all hair or hats or helms work for heads like these.
So yeah ... they coulda given them the miqo'te head with longer miqo'te ears and made the Hrothgar have highlander faces with the miqo'te head. Everything would fit like it does the miqo'te. But they didn't do that ... cause what would be the point of just making tall tail-less super model miqo'te and big beefy highlander miqo'te?
They did something unique and it worked out, but unique comes at a price. The price this time was hats and helms and hair styles.

Topics like these are just sad to me. I get why people want more, and it's fine to be disappointed. But I get why these things are not gonna happen from a design standpoint and ... when you can't see that it can leave you just yelling at clouds and pushing blame to other things. So it sounds bad but if not having hats or helms or XYZ hairs is that bad for someone I would recommend they race change. They don't have a head gear system that would allow for it and they're not gonna suddenly make it nor are they going to stop making hats and helms for the races that can wear them just to be "fair".

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

This sounds like non-sense.
"Unfinished"? I what way? What you call "unfinished", be it genders or hair or head gear, is literally a design choice that resulted in a compromise to stay true to their vision for these races. They never said that all head gear or hairs would ever work for Viera.

Sure, it's not your job to be a corporate shill and it's perfectly fine to be disappointed with something and express that but when you complain about something it adds more weight to your words when you take the time to actually understand what you're whining about.

Like, from CatBois to highlander Women to Femroe to Draggos we know that they are perfectly able to ADD new player character models that wear all head gear and have hair styles work. What's the difference here? Welp, not only is every new character model harder to make than the last because of compounding work loads (meaning that they do have a max number of character models they can support with the time and resources on hand and the game has way more gear and emotes than it did in ARR) but now, for the first time ever, they have models that break the systems the game has been using from the start from when it was a dumpster-fire of a game. At no point in most of this game's history did they have to consider making all hair or hats or helms work for heads like these.
So yeah ... they coulda given them the miqo'te head with longer miqo'te ears and made the Hrothgar have highlander faces with the miqo'te head. Everything would fit like it does the miqo'te. But they didn't do that ... cause what would be the point of just making tall tail-less super model miqo'te and big beefy highlander miqo'te?
They did something unique and it worked out, but unique comes at a price. The price this time was hats and helms and hair styles.

Topics like these are just sad to me. I get why people want more, and it's fine to be disappointed. But I get why these things are not gonna happen from a design standpoint and ... when you can't see that it can leave you just yelling at clouds and pushing blame to other things. So it sounds bad but if not having hats or helms or XYZ hairs is that bad for someone I would recommend they race change. They don't have a head gear system that would allow for it and they're not gonna suddenly make it nor are they going to stop making hats and helms for the races that can wear them just to be "fair".

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Viera issues aside, if you put out a race that has to pay real money to use a basic in game function like changing your hairstyle you deserve every last bit of flak you get for it. No matter how "unique" you made that race or even having a full understanding of the technical limitations of the character creator, it's a ridiculous thing to do. Had they done this during Heavensward with the Au Ra they would have been eviscerated by the playerbase and gaming media.

I still suspect they won't say anything until they're building up to 6.0, since it would be a major hype point. The precedent with adding new player models is there.

-Yugiri wasn't unmasked until 2.55, leading to Au Ra in Heavensward. (She was around earlier, but if you watch carefully, she uses a Miqo'te model with custom mods, since the Au Ra weren't finished yet.)
-Fran didn't show up until 4.5 for Orbonne Monastery, leading to Viera.

My expectation is that the Bozja/Save the Queen quests starting in 5.2 will eventually lead to us, well, saving the queen in 5.5-ish, leading to female Hrothgar. (And following the trend of previewing the female player model first, for that matter.)

And they won't finish one race without finishing the other. So rather than dripping out fixes here and there, they'll do it all at once, because one big rework will generate more hype than a bunch of smaller fixes.