Entitled people kick from FC harassing after??

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Originally Posted by Sated

Yakoo, don't let the gaslighting get to you. Like, legit this didn't need to come into the forums but you did fine otherwise.

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Arigatou Goasaimasu~ Yes, it was only 1 time thing, since it was a very bad experience for me, I just wanted to share.

I love the logic of "Your FC members are afraid of telling you what worries them so they had to resort to talking smack about you in a public stream"...

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Originally Posted by Yakoo

You join an FC so you better abide by the rules that they set, don't join a FC out of a sense of self entitlement like the FC owes you something, when they owe you nothing. So if you get kicked from it for breaking rules then its really simple, you broke the rules so you got kicked for it. Some people can't take it that they got kicked from the FC and out of spite create drama out of it, for their wrong doings and some will play the victim and favouritism game even though the ones that are kicked did something to be kicked for.

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These players were talking trash behind your back (about you), they got caught on stream (they should have been smarter), you gave them a warning, then in their PoV after said warning you arbitrarily ban them. Even if after deliberation you and other FC members collectively think kicking is the right outcome, you had already given these players a warning. This means, your warnings, or your given word, is worth nothing.

The learning experience should be given to you. Keep to your word, or think about actually deliberating with the FC before giving it.

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Originally Posted by AngelCheese77

I'll answer this as I have run an FC before and been an officer.

I would not have auto jumped to a warning right away and gathered evidence from members of my FC PRIVATELY. Not go into the FC chat. Not make it public on Discord. in tells.

We had this issue where there was an actual officer in the FC who was sexually harassing a member. The problem is, there was enough evidence but the FC leader (not me at the time) was friends with that officer being accused. When it was brought up publically, so many things were denied and faked, that the FC leader didn't believe it. But when things were talked about PRIVATELY, it came to light what was going on, and that officer stepped down and eventually left.

But yet in your own question, and the OP posting, we don't know how much time has been inbetween the warning and kick. One day? One hour? One week? Who knows? We weren't there.

Also, if you have rules, you stick to them. If you made a rule that it's three warnings then you're kicked, stick with it. But since we have no way to see the OPs rules, we don't have any knowledge how they run their FC.

And humans will always look back on situations and think "I could have done this" or "I should have done that". Well, shoulda woulda coulda won't help alas. What's done is done. That is why I suggest and try to follow my own rules of taking time to gather information and come to a conclusion, not a knee jerk reaction. That way, I have little second guessing what I did (hopefully).

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The first point is already the approach that I take, and I will always try to get evidence and information from both sides and despite how much I do in this respect, I'm still capable of making the wrong decision as we all are. I also heavily encourage my members to get logs where the can, because logs are great evidence, you can get the context, exactly what was said and you can look at it without bias, though with voice, that's hard. But we'll do our best to make the right decision, but they're not always black and white.

But yes, I think if I were to fault the OP for anything is making a verdict too soon, that I agree with. But I don't think it means you're being a terrible leader for doing so, aren't a tyrant or any of those bad things people have said, but human instead.

However, the focus for criticism seems very much be on the fact they changed their decision. But if you make the wrong decision first time around, you still have to deal with it and I am curious for those who're criticising the change of decision (and who wouldn't have a problem if the original verdict was a ban) what they would do differently if they perceived something could kick off before they have the chance to intervene and stop it. Putting themselves in the shoes where they have made the wrong decision first time around.

If I found myself in a position where I had made the mistake of offering the wrong decision in the first place. If the wrong thing to do is to change my verdict and I carry a viable and strong concern that the people in question would cause a big problem when my back is turned and on my return there's the risk that I have a bigger situation to deal with that's wholly unfair on the rest of the FC. People who have done nothing worthy my respect and if anything, acted to lose any respect I might have had. What would be the right way to handle it? Bearing in mind, it's not just me and the offenders who're affected but my FC members too.

Should I accept I made my decision, it was the wrong one and deal with the fallout if and when said s***storm comes to fruition and ruin the peace despite any lenience I've offered and to the detriment to those who aren't involved?

Or should I accept I made the wrong decision, it's not ideal, but change my decision to the right one? Save the situation escalating more than it needs to.

Or should I try to patch the situation in trying to reason with them? That is, despite my current attempts ending in a display of poor attitudes on their part and lack of remorse and continue to risk a s***storm.

Or is there another option I've not considered in this hypothetical situation?

But as you rightly say, we don't know how the OP runs their FC, hence I am understanding the case in question as an isolated incident, especially as if it wasn't, I'd expect the PSA to make reference to more than 1 case. And as an isolated incident, I'd not expect it'd bring their integrity into question or necessarily reflect badly on them overall as a leader. I have a clause in my rules that clarifies I have the ability to override any decision (and only the FC leader can do this, my second in command and officers don't get that right), whilst it can be abused, people trust that I won't abuse it, I don't and if I did, it'd lead to unruliness from my integrity being in disrepute and people would start leaving.

But it is there,should situations arise where the ruling isn't enough, whether it's somebody's decision or a particular FC rule. It came into place in 2013 and I've only ever used it once, for good reason, but I won't get into details because it was a very delicate situation and I've spent this long respecting that person's privacy, I'm not gonna break it now. So I think it is something worth having, but of course, it does mean your members will have to feel confident you have the integrity to not misuse it.

This whole topic has gotten ridiculous. I haven't read every single long-winded post but Jesus.
Who cares if they changed their mind last second as a FC leader?
You folks act like people can't change their mind. O_o

If people from the FC was being jerks, they could prolly be jerks to others in the FC.
You have to do whats right for yourself and the FC.
Some people are legit only eyeballing the fact that she kicked AFTER the warning.
This is so minuscule to me in my eyes because they were dare I say...Toxic.
At least the FC all came together about it and thought they shouldn't stick anymore.
After the kick, they banded together to form some mob like children.

This whole thing doesn't need to be some Ace Attorney Trial.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

aren't you jumping into conclusions now? claiming his FC members is scared of him without any proof?do you have screenshots of his FC members saying that they are scared of him?
if what you claimed is right so without proof we cant deny his claims either,do you have any proof that the event in question is made up? that he did it to get attention?
so maybe we need to take your words with a grain of salt as well ^^.

the point is that your claim can go either way, your claim about his post being false also need to be backed up by facts and while he can't nor should provide proof of the events to us,he decided to share what happened with us all ,believe in it or not.

he could be lying and could not but if he posted this ,the fact is it can be true(which most likely is and i hardly believe he posted it for trolling) and if people want to share similar experiences and opinions we are free to do so.
the thing is this isn't court ,it doesn't need to prove his claims here unless people actually claim this isn't how it went and most of all the people he need to prove the events are the GMs not us.

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I expect people to take things I say with a grain of salt as well, but now you're also not making much of an argument and just turning the words I said back on myself.

Coming to a public forum to say someone did this or that and expecting strangers to believe them ... well, yes, in my world, you need proof. You show me that it happened,and I will make my own conclusions. Because so far, all I see are people auto nodding their heads in agreement. We call this Herd Mentality.

And so far, I have been sharing my experiences, but it seems I've been villified with my first post. /shrugs Whatever.

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Originally Posted by Yakoo

So you think this was about getting attention?? I'll be brief No, it wasn't about attention.

Screenshots of the chat or pictures and names of players here is against TOS, if it was posted and not allowed on the forums. From what I've read.

How does that ring alarms bells?? You're only assuming the worse, the reason why they never want to say anything is because they don't want to, and its not even because of a reason. If people don't speak or want to start up a conversation, because they don't want to, then is that determined as them as being afraid?? It does not. You clearly don't know me or how my FC members are. Thank you very much.

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You stated in your above post that they had a reason:

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Originally Posted by Yakoo

And on a Note: I always say to my FC members, "If there is a concern or if someone upsets you, then please let me know", its only until the incident happen when them bad mouthing me and only then did they decide to tell me how they felt about them and its regarding issues before the incident even occurred, why?? Because they don't want to look like the bully so they kept quiet instead. They didn't want to tell me how they felt, I had to literally ask them how they felt.

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(my bolded emphasis)

Let me tell you why this is bad.

In EQ2 I had a character. At the time my mother was dying of cancer. I was inadvertently projecting my sadness into the game, but people of my guild refused to bring it up to me, only speaking to the officers. This went on for 6 MONTHS. 6 MONTHS of people talking about me behind my back, instead of talking to me in private and saying something. Know how I found out? When I became and officer myself and was privvy to the Officer forums. Reading posts on people actually hating me, wishing I was gone, and even worst stuff I can't put here.

So yes. Having guild members keep quiet on something is bad. It hurts, especially if it could have been something stopped ahead of time. From the words you wrote, it was either something that had been going on a while that others have seen, but didn't want to bring up as to not "be a bully" or just happened that one time. I don't know.

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Originally Posted by Sated

Yakoo, don't let the gaslighting get to you. Like, legit this didn't need to come into the forums but you did fine otherwise.

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"Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation in which a person seeks to sow seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or in members of a targeted group, making them question their own memory, perception, and sanity. Using persistent denial, misdirection, contradiction, and lying, gaslighting involves attempts to destabilize the victim and delegitimize the victim's beliefs."

Please learn the definition and what the proper use of gaslighting is. All I see here is people DISCUSSING something that was made on a public forum, not going through the ProJared/Heidi debacle.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

These players were talking trash behind your back (about you), they got caught on stream (they should have been smarter), you gave them a warning, then in their PoV after said warning you arbitrarily ban them. Even if after deliberation you and other FC members collectively think kicking is the right outcome, you had already given these players a warning. This means, your warnings, or your given word, is worth nothing.

The learning experience should be given to you. Keep to your word, or think about actually deliberating with the FC before giving it.

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Call me old fashioned, but the bolded statment is my so true in my book.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

The first point is already the approach that I take, and I will always try to get evidence and information from both sides and despite how much I do in this respect, I'm still capable of making the wrong decision as we all are. I also heavily encourage my members to get logs where the can, because logs are great evidence, you can get the context, exactly what was said and you can look at it without bias, though with voice, that's hard. But we'll do our best to make the right decision, but they're not always black and white.

But yes, I think if I were to fault the OP for anything is making a verdict too soon, that I agree with. But I don't think it means you're being a terrible leader for doing so, aren't a tyrant or any of those bad things people have said, but human instead.

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Funny how people see my discussions are calling them a bad FC leader. I don't remember ever saying that. Yes, I might be against their decisions and the outcomes, but we are human. We learn and grow. And sometimes that means taking criticism.

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However, the focus for criticism seems very much be on the fact they changed their decision. But if you make the wrong decision first time around, you still have to deal with it and I am curious for those who're criticising the change of decision (and who wouldn't have a problem if the original verdict was a ban) what they would do differently if they perceived something could kick off before they have the chance to intervene and stop it. Putting themselves in the shoes where they have made the wrong decision first time around.

If I found myself in a position where I had made the mistake of offering the wrong decision in the first place. If the wrong thing to do is to change my verdict and I carry a viable and strong concern that the people in question would cause a big problem when my back is turned and on my return there's the risk that I have a bigger situation to deal with that's wholly unfair on the rest of the FC. People who have done nothing worthy my respect and if anything, acted to lose any respect I might have had. What would be the right way to handle it? Bearing in mind, it's not just me and the offenders who're affected but my FC members too.

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Mistakes are made and you learn. I get that. But I guess people aren't seeing what I'm seeing in this discussion.

I work with facts and stuff in front of me. But the story the OP gave just doesn't sit right. I guess, overall, what bothers me is the given warning, then when all seemed cool as if the people were given a second chance ... the choice then was made later to kick them. Maybe I'm a soft-hearted b**ch who has to talk with people and explain things. I dunno. /shrug

Bad eggs in an FC shouldn't be there. I agree. Been there done that. Until that small piece of info about the OP's FC rules are known to me, I think I'll always have that small doubt in my mind.

Overall I think I have given my side on things, so this will be my last post on this. Don't think I can give anything else as not wanting to repeat myself.

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Originally Posted by AngelCheese77

No they aren't.

Think of it this way.

You are at your job...snip snip snip...

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This. Personally I would have kicked them without a second thought the first time around, but if I had decided it to be a warning I would have left it a warning. Then the next time they did something bad immediate dismissal for a second offense.

It IS bad form. As a guild leader myself(since arr), if i had done something like this. It 'could' be thrown up in my face. My fc members would think they have the right to tell me how to run my fc and anytime you backpedal on your word, its expected anytime somebody else gets in trouble. "buts its only fair" or "you changed things for so-and-so, why not me?"

Canadane Is just offering you genuine advice and you are misinterpreting things. Could be bad wording or not enough coffee. In a nutshell, this is risky and sloppy. Those guys were jerks and as I said earlier, I would have kicked them immediately. Handling it the way you did, could possibly have made them harrass your fc even more than it would have if you had simply kicked them in the first place or left it at a warning and kicked the second time around.

Nobody is saying a kick is too harsh. Those guys are clearly in the wrong. It was intended to be more like "be careful how manage things cause its risky and could backfire that way." In my opinion as well as from my own personal experiences(in game and out) I believe a guild leader should strive to always follow their own word and never change the rules to suit themselves. If you are going to issue a punishment, do so after thinking good and hard on it first and follow through with it later. This is the best, quickest way to gain support and respect from your fc members and to insure that they fear the consequences of breaking the rules. The others probably believe something similar and were intending to help you? That how i perceived it.

I am not trying to sound arrogant nor do I think I am better than anyone. I just truly believe what i said to be helpful to you. I wish you the best and I apologize if it somehow seems otherwise.

EDIT: I want to add that this is meant to help make the FC run smoother, but its also to cover FC leads butt. Im not trying to be toxic. Im trying to protect the OP from backlash and disorder.

Also, my co-lead shouts recruitments and we almost never have drama at all of any kind. I insta kick people who start drama, are disrespectful, rude or otherwise do something to intentionally bother another player and make no exceptions for anyone. Fortunately I havent had to kick many people. The are bad types of people in everything. You will never be free of it. Im sorry if you guys had bad experiences. I also disagree with the decision to label all shouters as bad. It would have been better if you had simply said "be careful when accepting shouters recruits" in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by AngelCheese77

(my bolded emphasis)

Let me tell you why this is bad.

In EQ2 I had a character. At the time my mother was dying of cancer. I was inadvertently projecting my sadness into the game, but people of my guild refused to bring it up to me, only speaking to the officers. This went on for 6 MONTHS. 6 MONTHS of people talking about me behind my back, instead of talking to me in private and saying something. Know how I found out? When I became and officer myself and was privvy to the Officer forums. Reading posts on people actually hating me, wishing I was gone, and even worst stuff I can't put here.

So yes. Having guild members keep quiet on something is bad. It hurts, especially if it could have been something stopped ahead of time. From the words you wrote, it was either something that had been going on a while that others have seen, but didn't want to bring up as to not "be a bully" or just happened that one time. I don't know.

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Let me re-clarify, I'm not talking about the members who talked trash behind my back. I'm talking about the members who were feeling uncomfortable with them. This is only when they decide to tell me how they felt about the members, they did not want to talk about. And they are not anything like what you assume.

And sometimes, people don't want to say anything if they don't want to about member, that they are uncomfortable with, they just keep quiet and let it be. When only until something has happened with the specified members that they have a bad vibe about, only then will they want to say something, when asked about.

I'm sorry that your mother was dying of cancer, I also had a cousin who had cancer and died of it, but they were at a very young age. I know how you feel when people talk bad things behind your back, I would also be enraged too, anyone would. Which is why I made the decision I had to make, even if it was changed from a warning to a kick.

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Originally Posted by AngelCheese77

Please learn the definition and what the proper use of gaslighting is. All I see here is people DISCUSSING something that was made on a public forum, not going through the ProJared/Heidi debacle.

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Is attempting to get them to doubt their leadership and question if they were the catalyst for this entire thing not gaslighting? It was an abrupt change of topic and tactic, and it seemed to be what you were doing with that post, whether that was your intent or not. We don't have enough info to make accusations like that and it doesn't seem like a useful avenue to pursue given the circumstances.

But anyway, I don't see much meaningful discussion left to be had here, it mostly seems like there's just a fundamental difference between the sort of social environments people prefer and are comfortable with which is going to vary wildly based on peoples' past experiences.

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Originally Posted by AngelCheese77

I expect people to take things I say with a grain of salt as well, but now you're also not making much of an argument and just turning the words I said back on myself.

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that was kinda my point to turn your own words against you and to make you reflect on it.
your words and points weren't exactly on the logic end but rather on the insulting end which even if it was your purpose it was the wrong way to make your point or making people understand it at least.

i already had a conversation about the points you said during your first post with Ferwyn but the problem was his first explanation which painted an over exaggerated picture of his views when that his actual point really was ,he(the OP) didn't acted right when after he warned them and closed the case , he kicked them from the FC , he either needed to kicked them right then or stayed with the warning until another time they do something else bad.
which again i said is a legit point to make but wasn't properly explained right and while we see things differently it is still a point to consider.

also while you dont agree with us that saying "OMG U Died U SUxxORz" is not grounds for dismissal or being called toxic ,it could have been phrased and even explained better especially since you start the post saying "Goodness. People complain about everything and anything in a game." which is how troll posts usually starts and making it clear your attacking and insulting in it. so that post kinda painted you a villain even if you didn't mean it like that.

@Yakoo.
I'm not going to sit here and tell you how to run your FC. I don't care. We wont even meet eachother in game. This is all whatever. You do you. If your FC respects and follows you... fine. None of us can or should take that from you. or those harrassing you.

However;

You, as a leader, need to stop defending your actions. You need to stop lashing out at those that question your actions. I will not question the events that happened. on face value, you dodged a bullet, and their actions since are unacceptable. They need to live with your decision as much as you need to defend it. You are responsible for more than yourself. Protect those being affected adversly from your decisions. If there are targetted attacks, keep a level head and involve GMs.

BUT;

My own 2 cents here;
I would not want to be in an FC with a leader that I knew would publicly ridicule me on a forum page. Especially if I was kicked for ridiculing them on my own public stream. I don't like or respect hypocrisy.

I would not want to follow an FC leader that I know would go behind my back and betray their own word- especially without giving me a message that said word was even in question to begin with.

I would not want to follow an FC leader that would lash out at strangers that questioned their authority or actions after they publicly ridiculed me in public on a forum page.


In short;
If it's dealt with, then let it be dealt with. Don't drag the rotting horse into the street. That really is no better than what they did to you. "vengeance" isnt karma. You claimed you were "above" them, and yet this thread is the very definition of stooping to their level.
In fact, unless these are some large scale community pillars of FFXIV, I doubt they have the publicity of the front page of the general english forums. I would consider this very low, and does nothing to de-escalate the situation.

Even if I agree with your decisions then, I cannot agree with them now.

You don't have to follow the "Rules" an FC sets. It's a game, people play to have fun and relax, not play in a "Work" environment. The only "Rule" that should be followed is to respect others. FC's who have strict rules are trash. You did not deal with the problem in a professional matter. You got in over yourself by "Announcing" to everyone in the FC about it. It should have been kept behind the scenes with the individuals who were the problem. Yes, they should have been removed but you could also have been forgiving and gave them a 2nd chance instead of jumping off the bridge to quickly. But in the end, it's dealt with and the damage is done.

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Originally Posted by AngelCheese77

Funny how people see my discussions are calling them a bad FC leader. I don't remember ever saying that. Yes, I might be against their decisions and the outcomes, but we are human. We learn and grow. And sometimes that means taking criticism.

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Ah, I mean it in response to the general argument made against the OP's actions, because of where so much of the emphasis is placed.

Though the actual error was not in changing their mind, but in creating the circumstance where they had to, not much emphasis has been made here but to instead focus heavily on the part that arguably (if the OP is representing the case fairly) was necessary and should have been done in the first place. I think if feedback needed, criticism be had is how to avoid a situation where you're not having to go back on a decision, rather than changing the decision in itself. Because it has very much come across that instead of preventing the situation by making steps to avoid the wrong decision in the first place, but the OP should have stuck by their decision instead, regardless of whether it was a bad decision or not. If it was a bad decision, it should be overturned.

Whilst you directly haven't made criticism of their leadership overall (as far as I can see, I'll admit I've not read all of your posts), but they have been made as part of that side of the argument, I was trying to address as a whole, so apologies for not making it clear. -uses the end of a work day, brain is dead excuse, if that excuse fails I'll opt for "hey look over there!"-

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Mistakes are made and you learn. I get that. But I guess people aren't seeing what I'm seeing in this discussion.

I work with facts and stuff in front of me. But the story the OP gave just doesn't sit right. I guess, overall, what bothers me is the given warning, then when all seemed cool as if the people were given a second chance ... the choice then was made later to kick them. Maybe I'm a soft-hearted b**ch who has to talk with people and explain things. I dunno. /shrug

Bad eggs in an FC shouldn't be there. I agree. Been there done that. Until that small piece of info about the OP's FC rules are known to me, I think I'll always have that small doubt in my mind.

Overall I think I have given my side on things, so this will be my last post on this. Don't think I can give anything else as not wanting to repeat myself.

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I can understand scepticism, don't worry, I've done it in other threads where people have come in with a story to vent on the forums and it just doesn't sit right, particularly if it's stuff you've seen before. From reading your last couple of posts, I am getting the feeling we handle problems in a similar way. I too rather have the facts in front of me to make a decision, hence I love logs so much, because they speak for themselves. I hate hearsay because it's unreliable for me to assess the situation, particularly if one party is exacerbated.


I guess I found it easier to relate to the events, because, well, I've dealt with my share of toxicity and have had plenty to test me as an FC leader that I can empathise when it comes to trying to handle the situation properly and maybe even the need to vent.

Though of course it'll be hard to see the validity unless somebody comes along to present the other side, which could turn the whole thing around, but of course the same with any story and as long as the people in question are anonymous, I think it's safe to give the benefit of the doubt until anything contrary shows. If they weren't anonymous, then I'd be more inclined to hear their side of the story if their name is about to be put in disrepute, because then it'd be unfair.

But if something feels off that makes you sceptical of the events then fairdoes, it didn't hit my sceptic senses, but ours might be tuned differently.

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

You don't have to follow the "Rules" an FC sets. It's a game, people play to have fun and relax, not play in a "Work" environment. The only "Rule" that should be followed is to respect others. FC's who have strict rules are trash. You did not deal with the problem in a professional matter. You got in over yourself by "Announcing" to everyone in the FC about it. It should have been kept behind the scenes with the individuals who were the problem. Yes, they should have been removed but you could also have been forgiving and gave them a 2nd chance instead of jumping off the bridge to quickly. But in the end, it's dealt with and the damage is done.

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So you say that it can't be a work environment but OP has to be professional? And all an FC needs is for people to respect each other, but you're defending two people who haven't respected the leader first and then the rest of the FC?

By all means, bring more hypocrisy onto the table.

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

@Yakoo.
I'm not going to sit here and tell you how to run your FC. I don't care. We wont even meet eachother in game. This is all whatever. You do you. If your FC respects and follows you... fine. None of us can or should take that from you. or those harrassing you.

However;

You, as a leader, need to stop defending your actions. You need to stop lashing out at those that question your actions. I will not question the events that happened. on face value, you dodged a bullet, and their actions since are unacceptable. They need to live with your decision as much as you need to defend it. You are responsible for more than yourself. Protect those being affected adversly from your decisions. If there are targetted attacks, keep a level head and involve GMs.

BUT;

My own 2 cents here;
I would not want to be in an FC with a leader that I knew would publicly ridicule me on a forum page. Especially if I was kicked for ridiculing them on my own public stream. I don't like or respect hypocrisy.

I would not want to follow an FC leader that I know would go behind my back and betray their own word- especially without giving me a message that said word was even in question to begin with.

I would not want to follow an FC leader that would lash out at strangers that questioned their authority or actions after they publicly ridiculed me in public on a forum page.


In short;
If it's dealt with, then let it be dealt with. Don't drag the rotting horse into the street. That really is no better than what they did to you. "vengeance" isnt karma. You claimed you were "above" them, and yet this thread is the very definition of stooping to their level.
In fact, unless these are some large scale community pillars of FFXIV, I doubt they have the publicity of the front page of the general english forums. I would consider this very low, and does nothing to de-escalate the situation.

Even if I agree with your decisions then, I cannot agree with them now.

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How is that actually ridiculing?? I'm not making fun of anyone or the situation. I shouldn't, when I also have different experiences??? I see a lot of mixed experiences/opinions here:
- It's ok you do whats best for your FC
- Its ok to change your mind
- Don't change your mind. when you given your word
- You can change your mind and nip it in the bud, if you have to
- Why should anybody care when its not their FC
etc, etc ,etc

1. I'm not making fun of no one, so that is not ridiculing. That's what you are saying.
2. If I have a good enough reason for my decision to be changed, then if its in the benefit of for the FC then I will take action to do it. You may say the opposing, but I would rather stop things at an early stage, the only thing your blaming me for here is that I changed my decision.
3. You say lash out when I stated in my past posts that some people don't even want to read. So I just repeat what I said. In no way shape of form is that ridiculing.

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Originally Posted by Jybril

This whole topic has gotten ridiculous. I haven't read every single long-winded post but Jesus.
Who cares if they changed their mind last second as a FC leader?
You folks act like people can't change their mind. O_o

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Sure they can, but that's generally a personal matter and not an official one.
When you're in charge of other people, generally speaking it shows leadership to stick to your initial decision and handling, rather than just reversing course like what happened.
Not everyone is going to run their ship the same, and obviously this is one of those cases where it's the FC leaders way or the highway. Not everyone would want to be in such a FC or under such regulations and since the topic was made to share the experience, the replies are indicative of their point of view on the situation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jybril

This whole thing doesn't need to be some Ace Attorney Trial.

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then i guess it need to be said so...

OBJECTION!

XD

People were asking why we have posting limits in another thread

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yakoo

snip.

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Though "entitled people" in the thread name I would consider ridicule, I can retract my more harsher statements, as they were more meant to be a general thing, mostly because I'm not really intending to add to any fighting. So while I wont edit it, I will apologize for being a bit more snide and condemning than I intend. I apologize to you for using the wrong words I wanted to convey my stance and painting you in a worse light.
The crux of my stance, though still stands beyond any specific choice of words. and I would consider you focusing on that to be a deflection. So I'll wind it back to that, since you focus very heavily on that specific word choice;


I believe that dragging a localized event of harassment into a public forum to be little better than a witch hunt. While you may have a right, (and many of us would back your decision) to weed out problems within your FC, you are well OUTSIDE your right to announce those actions publicly; especially if the events have passed. That is a form of shaming.

In my eyes, you have not only betrayed your own stance by "not dropping to their level" by making a public thread, but you have gone further than they could by doing so. I'm calling it what it is; hypocrisy. and its that hypocrisy that gets under my skin. I do not think this thread is necessary.

I do not and cannot condone using a public forum for this purpose, ESPECIALLY since its about the actions of others doing the same thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

Though "entitled people" in the thread name I would consider ridicule, I can retract my more harsher statements, as they were more meant to be a general thing, mostly because I'm not really intending to add to any fighting. So while I wont edit it, I will apologize for being a bit more snide and condemning than I intend. I apologize to you for using the wrong words I wanted to convey my stance and painting you in a worse light.

I believe that dragging a localized event of harassment into a public forum to be little better than a witch hunt. While you may have a right, (and many of us would back your decision) to weed out problems within your FC, you are well OUTSIDE your right to announce those actions publicly; especially if the events have passed. That is a form of shaming.

In my eyes, you have not only betrayed your own stance by "not dropping to their level" by making a public thread, but you have gone further than they could by doing so. I'm calling it what it is; hypocrisy. and its that hypocrisy that gets under my skin. I do not think this thread is necessary.

I do not and cannot condone using a public forum for this purpose, ESPECIALLY since its about the actions of others doing the same thing.

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So you say that because I have "Entitled people" in my thread titles its ridiculing? This topic isn't a joke to be made of, nor do I find it funny. Like I said with you there are many mixed experience and opinions here.

Sharing my experience, but having some people say "Don't change your mind you've issued a warning", I will say this. If I was a member of "YOUR" FC for example. And you've given someone a warning for toxicity, and I told you it may lead to something bigger, would it be actually worth sticking to that warning? Some like me would say "NO, its not worth it", because if something was to happen and caused a even bigger mess than usual, I would be out of that FC so fast because they left it untreated and would be like "I told you so", its only a few people that were toxic against the rest of the people in the FC.

No names were given, so you don't know who they were, a form a shaming but with-out a name to go by?? You need a name to shame. But you sound like people who want to try to protect people for being shi*ty people.

You use the term "betray" on a matter that was deemed necessary for me to decide whether I want to change my mind or not. I don't want to leave doors open for future problems in the FC, so I decided to change it. Sure, people can change, but from my past experience after giving warnings, some people don't and continue their behaviour to obstruct and dismantle the FC and the ones that are left are there to pick up the pieces.

If you read on someone who said "I shouldn't have to drag it to public forums", in the previous posts. I said ok, and it was to share my experience on what has happened.

You're literally pointing fingers at me for the wrong reasons you deemed fit towards your own opinion, because to you its wrong and act as if you're all such perfect leaders. I could say the same thing with people that say "You gave them a warning, but you didn't stick with it". Has it never come to your attention, like seriously EVER, in the slightest that if I left it as it was and don't make decisions quickly or change them for the matter, then could it turn into something BIGGER, like have you actually given that a thought for a minute or did that totally slip your mind?? Because you were to busy trying to argue with me and other people who has similar experiences or think the same as me?? That is the questions you are failing to ask yourselves, but some are just playing the nit and pick game and pointing fingers at me and others, just for a change in a decision, comparing it to Jobs even. Some people also have to realise that changes can be made at any given time, if its NECESSARY to do so whether it is in a Job or Hobby. You make yourselves sound as if you've never made changes in mind before. Sometimes sticking to your word isn't enough as a leader, you must also make changes for what you think is right and correct the decision. This is why I see such a great divide in experience and opinions, as a leader you should always strive to keep your word, this is true... but what if the word/decision made wasn't enough?? This is something to think about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yakoo

You're literally pointing fingers at me for the wrong reasons you deemed fit towards your own opinion, because to you its wrong and act as if you're all such perfect leaders. I could say the same thing with people that say "You gave them a warning, but you didn't stick with it". Has it never come to your attention, like seriously EVER, in the slightest that if I left it as it was and don't make decisions quickly or change them for the matter, then could it turn into something BIGGER, like have you actually given that a thought for a minute or did that totally slip your mind?? Because you were to busy trying to argue with me and other people who has similar experiences or think the same as me?? That is the questions you are failing to ask yourselves, but some are just playing the nit and pick game and pointing fingers at me and others, just for a change in a decision, comparing it to Jobs even. Some people also have to realise that changes can be made at any given time, if its NECESSARY to do so whether it is in a Job or Hobby. You make yourselves sound as if you've never made changes in mind before. Sometimes sticking to your word isn't enough as a leader, you must also make changes for what you think is right and correct the decision. This is why I see such a great divide in experience and opinions, as a leader you should always strive to keep your word, this is true... but what if the word/decision made wasn't enough?? This is something to think about.

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The only thing I hope people thought about after reading the first post and then this one is either confirming or realizing that FC drama on the forums are never a good idea, especially IF they drama has been "dealt" with.


Different story if someone asking for advice on how to handle a situation before they do anything.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

that was kinda my point to turn your own words against you and to make you reflect on it.
your words and points weren't exactly on the logic end but rather on the insulting end which even if it was your purpose it was the wrong way to make your point or making people understand it at least.

i already had a conversation about the points you said during your first post with Ferwyn but the problem was his first explanation which painted an over exaggerated picture of his views when that his actual point really was ,he(the OP) didn't acted right when after he warned them and closed the case , he kicked them from the FC , he either needed to kicked them right then or stayed with the warning until another time they do something else bad.
which again i said is a legit point to make but wasn't properly explained right and while we see things differently it is still a point to consider.

also while you dont agree with us that saying "OMG U Died U SUxxORz" is not grounds for dismissal or being called toxic ,it could have been phrased and even explained better especially since you start the post saying "Goodness. People complain about everything and anything in a game." which is how troll posts usually starts and making it clear your attacking and insulting in it. so that post kinda painted you a villain even if you didn't mean it like that.

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Hm, wasn't my intent. Seems you read more into it that I meant. None of my posts were meant to be trollish in any regard.

And I am not sure how what I wrote was anyway insulting? I was asking questions and seeing things from a different point of view, while another poster was using name calling and cursing, yet they weren't called out. Funny how that works, and I'm villianized for having a different point of view on all this. LOL

I have no idea how to make my point anymore clearer or different. /shrug Saying the same thing back to a person in a different order isn't a conversation or discussion in anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yakoo

You're literally pointing fingers at me for the wrong reasons you deemed fit towards your own opinion, because to you its wrong and act as if you're all such perfect leaders. I could say the same thing with people that say "You gave them a warning, but you didn't stick with it". Has it never come to your attention, like seriously EVER, in the slightest that if I left it as it was and don't make decisions quickly or change them for the matter, then could it turn into something BIGGER, like have you actually given that a thought for a minute or did that totally slip your mind?? Because you were to busy trying to argue with me and other people who has similar experiences or think the same as me?? That is the questions you are failing to ask yourselves, but some are just playing the nit and pick game and pointing fingers at me and others, just for a change in a decision, comparing it to Jobs even. Some people also have to realise that changes can be made at any given time, if its NECESSARY to do so whether it is in a Job or Hobby. You make yourselves sound as if you've never made changes in mind before. Sometimes sticking to your word isn't enough as a leader, you must also make changes for what you think is right and correct the decision. This is why I see such a great divide in experience and opinions, as a leader you should always strive to keep your word, this is true... but what if the word/decision made wasn't enough?? This is something to think about.

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I think it's time to just see that you came here to do what you wanted to do, see people have differing opinions, and walk awy from this. Might be affecting you a bit more than you intended.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

The only thing I hope people thought about after reading the first post and then this one is either confirming or realizing that FC drama on the forums are never a good idea, especially IF they drama has been "dealt" with.


Different story if someone asking for advice on how to handle a situation before they do anything.

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That’s how I feel about it after reading everything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yakoo

I am from Tonberry and run an FC for sometime now (8 months)

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yakoo

Later, they came back with people who I kicked from the FC in the past

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Call me naive, but I've been in my FC since Heavensward and we've never had to kick anyone - the only rule we have is one of basic respect. The fact there are multiple kicks in only 8 months is a big yikes from me.
A lot of this thread seems to be very specific to the aftermath of this one kick, but the fact they came back, and with additional people who have been kicked, gives the impression to me that people getting kicked isn't too infrequent? I also guess that they took the effort to do this afterwards that there was a large amount of frustration and resentment towards the FC and their leader - to me if that is happening that gives off some red flags on how the FC is being run? I'd be interested to see what the rules are in this environment.

As for the incident in question: I agree with the result, not with the execution. The fact it was being spoken about after a warning was given is an issue to me, as well as the fact there is an announcement to the FC before being kicked. A lot of it sounds like displays of power to me being flaunted in public, rather than just being dealt with and taken care of. Same with the fact that this thread even exists, it doesn't serve any purpose rather than calling them out and prolonging the drama. If it was asking for advice it would be different, but this was just a rant.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Naritori

snip.

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No, There are many people in the FC, its just the people who we get sometimes can be bad without knowing until they show their true colors. Here is a back story, there were 8 people in the past who were in another server that caused a lot issues on in another FC in that server (I didn't know at this time), that came into Tonberry through a member who wanted to invite them into the FC. They were very cliquey, they made some very obnoxious jokes, when I would be away or would just be plain disrespectful within the FC. This made some people leave, but this was when I was offline. Some people told me that while I was offline they were causing trouble, so I gave them all a warning before. Then they did it again, but this time I could see it showing so I removed them, and they made a scene of it. Only after I kicked them a few days later, someone contacted me and told me how they behaved over there, and this was the time I only knew, since this person and a few others told me everything. You really can't place a red flag on my FC, without any foresight. And because I am in Tonberry in a JP server, there are a lot of Japanese FC's here and the culture is different.

The change of mind can come anytime, whether I see it fit if its "NECESSARY to do so". And again no, for me to announce that I need to remove some members for breaking rules doesn't mean I am displaying or abusing powers. If a person does something bad, I will put an announcement, not targeting or saying what they did either, but that I will be removing them. You say "calling them out". You don't know what my intent was, you just assume that I did. It's simply to share my experience and spread awareness and say to people "If you're going to be as*sholes then dont join FC's and cause trouble". But because of your lack of any foresight, you can keep saying that.

Edit: Just because you don't kick people doesn't mean that I need to as well, so don't shove your opinion down my throat, All FC's are different. Resentment because they hold grudges, I already forgot about them entirely, only until they came back to harass us, you fail to see the bigger picture.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Naritori

Call me naive, but I've been in my FC since Heavensward and we've never had to kick anyone - the only rule we have is one of basic respect. The fact there are multiple kicks in only 8 months is a big yikes from me.
A lot of this thread seems to be very specific to the aftermath of this one kick, but the fact they came back, and with additional people who have been kicked, gives the impression to me that people getting kicked isn't too infrequent? I also guess that they took the effort to do this afterwards that there was a large amount of frustration and resentment towards the FC and their leader - to me if that is happening that gives off some red flags on how the FC is being run? I'd be interested to see what the rules are in this environment.

As for the incident in question: I agree with the result, not with the execution. The fact it was being spoken about after a warning was given is an issue to me, as well as the fact there is an announcement to the FC before being kicked. A lot of it sounds like displays of power to me being flaunted in public, rather than just being dealt with and taken care of. Same with the fact that this thread even exists, it doesn't serve any purpose rather than calling them out and prolonging the drama. If it was asking for advice it would be different, but this was just a rant.

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This thread is dragging on longer than it's supposed to be. I'm not sure if you've read the whole thread but if we go by what OP has said about the ones who were kicked badmouthing him on a live medium, then that should clearly be a violation of so-called basic respect. OP has also mentioned about the 8 "cliquey" players who he decided to kick in turn for bad behaviour, I'm guessing these are the ones who wanted to get back to OP and his FC. To me that paints a bad and childish image of these people. Tbh I've never been an FC leader but it doesn't take a lot to know that managing one is hard. I don't really think it's fair to judge an FC leader's temperament and decision-making when it comes to deciding who stays and who goes in an FC provided that there's grounds for expulsion. I don't really know what prompted OP to change his mind from issuing a warning to kicking them out but if them making an even bigger issue/drama in the future is what I'll get for keeping them, then the obvious decision to kick these people is valid. Sometimes there really is just bad luck, it doesn't matter if there's 8, 14 people being kicked in a short duration, so long as they prove to be disrespectful to an FC and its members, they should go

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PrinceZuko

This thread is dragging on longer than it's supposed to be. I'm not sure if you've read the whole thread but if we go by what OP has said about the ones who were kicked badmouthing him on a live medium, then that should clearly be a violation of so-called basic respect. OP has also mentioned about the 8 "cliquey" players who he decided to kick in turn for bad behaviour, I'm guessing these are the ones who wanted to get back to OP and his FC. To me that paints a bad and childish image of these people. Tbh I've never been an FC leader but it doesn't take a lot to know that managing one is hard. I don't really think it's fair to judge an FC leader's temperament and decision-making when it comes to deciding who stays and who goes in an FC provided that there's grounds for expulsion. I don't really know what prompted OP to change his mind from issuing a warning to kicking them out but if them making an even bigger issue/drama in the future is what I'll get for keeping them, then the obvious decision to kick these people is valid. Sometimes there really is just bad luck, it doesn't matter if there's 8, 14 people being kicked in a short duration, so long as they prove to be disrespectful to an FC and its members, they should go

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Why are you talking like OP is some random guy you don't know when he's obviously your fc leader?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hasana

Why are you talking like OP is some random guy you don't know when he's obviously your fc leader?

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I looked it up, and the OP actually is his FC leader.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1UtRnGn5hc

Whoa it’s like a FF14 family reunion!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Whoa it’s like a FF14 family reunion!

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National Lampoon: Eorzeans Strike Back II: The Reunion

Now Uncut.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hasana

Why are you talking like OP is some random guy you don't know when he's obviously your fc leader?

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Some of my FC members that were there during what happened already knew I posted to share my story. You wanted light on the situation, so they felt the need to also answer, it's not like I'm the only one of them around in the forums. Like I've said before, some people who don't even read every post and just jump and make their own opinionated claims, and paint people in a bad spot light then say "Oh, its my opinion" without knowing "anything", or so they claim that I make up stories.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yakoo

Some of my FC members that were there during what happened already knew I posted to share my story. You wanted light on the situation, so they felt the need to also answer, it's not like I'm the only one of them around in the forums. Like I've said before, some people who don't even read every post and just jump and make their own opinionated claims, and paint people in a bad spot light then say "Oh, its my opinion" without knowing "anything", or so they claim that I make up stories.

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That guy has 1 post, is in your guild, and talked like as hasana says..

Dude just got caught.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

That guy has 1 post, is in your guild, and talked like as hasana says..

Dude just got caught.

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Has it even occurred to you, that you don't need an account to even view the forums/threads?? Oh I love it when people like you interpret things without a second thought. They speak on their behalf of what they think. I speak on mine, but I guess you just brand people and say "You're a bad FC leader because you changed a decision", now you have a 2nd "opinion" here and someone who is also in my FC. You have a chance to ask them now who I am as a person, since they know how I am actually like within the FC.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yakoo

Has it even occurred to you, that you don't need an account to even view the forums/threads?? Oh I love it when people like you interpret things without a second thought. They speak on their behalf of what they think. I speak on mine, but I guess you just brand people and say "You're a bad FC leader because you changed a decision", now you have a 2nd "opinion" here and someone who is also in my FC.

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I would say I can understand exactly where that group was coming from with what has been posted in this thread, they should have just been smarter while streaming.

I mean, if you like an echo chamber, and yes men - which your FC seems to be - more power to you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I would say I can understand exactly where that group was coming from with what has been posted in this thread, they should have just been smarter while streaming.

I mean, if you like an echo chamber, and yes men - which your FC seems to be - more power to you.

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Here we we go again with knowing nothing about my FC. Then, trying to claim my FC is bad. You have zero clue on what you're talking about. Really?? the people kicked should've been smarter while streaming, then talking bad about me/FC members, you're quite the hilarious one. Clique groups that want to cause issues have no place here in my FC. This was the 2nd time it has happened. But you labelling my FC bad without anything to go by, just makes me think that you're only protecting the bad. So keep on protecting jerks.

Yeah dude I would stop, this is a really bad look for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yakoo

Here we we go again with knowing nothing about my FC. Then, trying to claim my FC is bad. You have zero clue on what you're talking about. Really?? the people kicked should've been smarter while streaming, then talking bad about me/FC members, you're quite the hilarious one. Clique groups that want to cause issues have no place here in my FC. This was the 2nd time it has happened. But you labelling my FC bad without anything to go by, just makes me think that you're only protecting the bad. So keep on protecting jerks.

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What is this "if you're not with me, you're against me cuz you don't know me" babble you're spewing? You made your case and clearly you stand by it. No one ne actually diaagreed that the baddies you kicked are bad, they're only questioning if your method on dealing with them was the appropriate one bases on their perspective.

If you didn't want differing views on how to deal with some situations, should've avoided posting on general discussion thread.

Hell, if you want to take the "idc about your opinion" route, should've left the thread at the first post you made and not look back.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Yeah dude I would stop, this is a really bad look for you.

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Well, people want to try to instigate the wrong doings of other people, especially people who bad mouth others or being as*sholes within the FC. Then when I changed a "warning into a kick", they label "you're bad". If people don't think why it was changed for the reason. Because people who were removed wanted to only cause issues and trouble, you really think its nice to bad mouth someone behind their back then get away with it and then say "They should've been smarter"?? Then you're only trying defending the bad.