Lack of End Game Content

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Originally Posted by Nerfworthy

and we have world quests already. They are called FATEs.

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no, we dont

fates has almost no reward at all and they are completely boring

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Originally Posted by Ibkee

We are literally 12 days away from Savage content, moaning about a lack of endgame now seems disingenuous, particularly by Scottzone.

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I finished the Mainstory before early access was over. And I didn't rush nor am I God's gift to FFXIV. So those who are a bit more efficient than I am or better at the game I'd imagine would be getting a little antsy about more challenging content. Remember, the expert dungeons and exetreme trials are routine for the more organized and higher end players. So they're not challenged in the same way many others are.

To them doing Hades or a 80 dungeon is like you running Sastasha over and over.

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Originally Posted by LilySkye

no, we dont

fates has almost no reward at all and they are completely boring

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...and world quests are different? Last time I checked, they also have almost no reward at all ('azerite power yay!' or 'gear that you have better from heroic dungeons yay!') and are completely boring.

Also, side note: unlike WoW, FFXIV keeps content relevant without you needing to be lv80 to enjoy 90% of what the game has to offer. WoW does not. if you have a problem with this, I suggest you go back to WoW where you clearly like the formula more, rather than come here and try to ruin a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Avraym

I would disagree - WoW mythics kept a LOT of end game players busy and entertained since they were almost "limitless". Each time they felt a little different with the randomised modifiers and drops.

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WoW mythics are quite literally "old content" you're farming. The only different is +10 adds some mechanic that generally just makes the place more of a pain in the ass

Other than a new +10 added every 1/3 to half a year, the mythics feel 100% the same, affixes go in a rotation, and a new mythic very rarely gets added

In my opinion, Shadowbringers overall is a fantastic expansion, with rich story telling, awe inspiring visuals and songs that are pieces of art. Unfortunately, once you hit max level, have acquired your extreme and tome gears - one can find themselves asking, "Is that it?".

My thoughts exactly!

I haven't been playing FFXIV long enough to get anywhere near endgame- but I've played many other MMOs at endgame, and I don't think any of them have more than two or three months worth of content per year. I'm a fairly casual player, and while it's technically true that you can endlessly farm for RNG upgrades from WQs and dungeons... you're still just doing the same thing over and over and over.

Like, is doing 8 or so dungeons and dailies for two years really that much content? I really don't think WoW has more endgame content- the comparison I'd make is having an exercise room. One person uses every machine once then has nothing else to do, another just gets on the treadmill and walks for two years- that's WoW.

At some point, of course, you need repetition especially for those that can hit endgame in a few weeks because they rush.

Again, can't speak for FFXIV- but imho out of mmos I have played, I don't really see there being that much endgame either. WoW's an endless treadmill, but very boring. ESO sort of feels the same at all levels and adds tiny pieces of content at a very slow rate. GW2 is even worse, feels like you're doing the same thing at level 5 as max, and everything is just grinding.

I just think it's a capability issue- I don't think any MMO is capable of both making enough content to appease those who rush and devour what there is immediately, and the majority of players that have limited time but still want to enjoy the full game.

They don't want to make the game a treadmill. Even Yoshi said its ok to unsub until you get new content that you think its worth to play.

Regarding M+ and so on,my two cents as WoW veteran and Cutting Edge raider, they make it a necessary evil due to how gear is distributed through the game(Titanforged) summed with the endless trying to catch Artifact Power that you must farm in order to be competitive. Ok you have content, but at the same time thanks to that you had several guilds later breaking due to burn out with the game.

As for FFXIV itself, they want you to equip most professions with your character, enjoy social hubs and crafting. Using my personal experience, I'm focusing now on DoL stuff to get money for future Pentameld crafts in the not so far away future.

Though I agree that some sort of M+ mechanic, with time attack and modifiers like in ARPG for example would be cool, if they rewarded some cool Cosmetics and add a player ranking. You would be able to maintain some sort of competition, use the multiple class mechanics of the game so people can figure out a comp for dungeons and the cosmetics make it non obligatory and add to player achievement.

Can't wait 2 weeks for savage? XD

The only issue I see is that the ex trials this time around were way too easy.

I honestly prefer this over the seemingly unending artifact/azerite grinds WoW does. I'm fine with being 'done' for a patch and coming back for the next one. I like my grinds to have an end goal in sight, and i detest grinds that follow you for an entire expansion like artifact power.

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Originally Posted by LilySkye

no, we dont

fates has almost no reward at all and they are completely boring

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Sounds like world quests to me- only reward in WoW is from emissaries unless you're severely undergeared (or get insanely lucky RNG- and you still need insane RNG luck to get emissary rewards worth anything). At least FATES don't give you the illusion of an upgrade. WoW has people doing hundreds of WQs a week when there's like a 0.01% chance you'll get an upgrade.

I think WoW is a bad thing to bring up. If FFXIV was like WoW, we'd be getting item level 430-445 gear from Fates. Blizzard has lost its mind when it comes to item progression.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

I think WoW is a bad thing to bring up. If FFXIV was like WoW, we'd be getting item level 430-445 gear from Fates. Blizzard has lost its mind when it comes to item progression.

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WoW is brought up because it has nailed endgame very effectively. If you took only the post-leveling content and completely isolated them from the games you have WoW completely outshining 14.

14's endgame consists of the following:

1. Run roulette dungeons and old content to obtain currency to turn in.
2. Run the most current primals for yet another currency to turn in for other endgame gear.
3. Run normal mode current tier raids for weekly lockout currencies that turn into yet another different kind of gear.
4. Run savage version of current tier raid for weekly drops AND ANOTHER WHOLE CURRENCY for X amount of weeks to finally get a weapon to match the random gear from all the other currency.
5. Repeat this ad nauseum. Oh yeah, there's even more currencies you get to turn into augment items for the gear.

WoW's endgame consists of the following:

1. Run actual hard versions of currently available dungeons with semi-random modifiers that change the strategies of that dungeon with an ever-increasing scale of difficulty for higher and higher levels of gear to improve.
2. Run the current raid content for unique gear drops on varying degrees and progress through the most challenging difficulty with your guild if you desire such a thing.
3. Run timewalking dungeons which are old recycled content but themed around specific events every month so that they don't get stale. Obtain old transmog pieces through currency or limited time pets and mounts just from running in these timed events.
4. Run old raids for transmog or to experience content you missed.

14's list of things to do at endgame is massive at first glance but...its not. Its just the same thing repeated over and over and over and over all for one of five hundred different types of currencies we have to obtain to get anything. And I guess you can go back and run old primals for ponies or birds or dogs or whatever but...that only lasts so long. WoW's list on the other hand is smaller but more refined. They have the standard raid, current expansion related dungeons with the sliding scale difficulty for endgame specifically and a plethora of things to farm all without forcing the player to run outdated content for 7 years straight with only a couple of dungeons, one new and one old just changed up a little, and a drip feed of moderately difficult content in savage followed by a 3 month break until the 24man "mega-dungeon" (Its not really a raid with any real difficulty and ends up just being yet another currency fountain) and some more of the same dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Been here since launch, still haven't run out of things to do.

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Same I have PLD, RDM, MIN, WVR, and ARM at 80 and I still got a lot to lvl up.

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Originally Posted by Avraym

I've been here since 1.0 aswell. Could you please allude to what end game content keeps you busy and entertained?

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By playing very casually. Having to go to work full time I only have a few hours a day to spend on this and I sometimes do other things instead. You could argue that this level of content is not worth $15 a month. That may be true. I don't know.

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Originally Posted by Unaki

WoW is brought up because it has nailed endgame very effectively. If you took only the post-leveling content and completely isolated them from the games you have WoW completely outshining 14.

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6-14 month content drought between patches and expansions is not "nailing" the end game content.

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Originally Posted by Unaki

WoW is brought up because it has nailed endgame very effectively. If you took only the post-leveling content and completely isolated them from the games you have WoW completely outshining 14.

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What?

The WoW endgame is the most depressing, un-rewarding, un-fun, RNG-filled grindfest in MMOs. You can play for weeks and get nothing or login for half an hour and luck a Titanforged mythic from a World Boss. It's a complete joke.

Defending XIV's quantity of end game content is trolling, full stop. I do love this game, but no one should be defending XIV's end game formula. It is just entirely lacking.

Also the following:
-> Just because you have "more than enough to do" does not mean there is enough end game content.
-> Leveling, crafting, maps, old Ultimates, mount grinding etc, is not end game content. You do not get to redefine what terms mean to suit your argument.

The 4 savage bosses per six months really hurts the long term chances of keeping players around. Every other content that is put in the game (ex trials and 24-player raids) is smashed the first day by PUGs. If the 24-player raids were actually 8-player raids—and so we'd get 4 savage bosses + ex trial every three months—is something that would change the entire situation. But as it is, it's really hard to stick around. My subscription lapses in about five days, and while Shadowbringers is one of the best MMO expansions I've ever played, I'm likely to let it lapse because I know I have, maybe, a week or two of engaging content after savage drops before I'm bored until sometime next year. This really isn't acceptable.

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Originally Posted by Ibkee

What?

The WoW endgame is the most depressing, un-rewarding, un-fun, RNG-filled grindfest in MMOs. You can play for weeks and get nothing or login for half an hour and luck a Titanforged mythic from a World Boss. It's a complete joke.

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Pretty much this. There's a reason why I'm exclusively playing 14 now and haven't had a WoW sub for months. Titanforging singlehandedly ruined any sense of a satisfying gear progression system in WoW.

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Originally Posted by Ibkee

What?

The WoW endgame is the most depressing, un-rewarding, un-fun, RNG-filled grindfest in MMOs. You can play for weeks and get nothing or login for half an hour and luck a Titanforged mythic from a World Boss. It's a complete joke.

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I don't want to overtly defend WoW, but this logic is completely flawed. Go and do M+ and the raid difficulty that is suitable to your item level, and you will get upgrades. Titanforging being this horrific thing is a ridiculous player assertion. If the Heroic version of the raid drops gear higher than your equipped item level, you WILL get upgrades, even given bad luck streaks of personal loot. If you play for weeks and get "nothing," then you are not doing sufficiently challenging content for your item level (read: you're not doing M+ or the highest difficulty raids your gear can handle).

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Originally Posted by Ibkee

What?

The WoW endgame is the most depressing, un-rewarding, un-fun, RNG-filled grindfest in MMOs. You can play for weeks and get nothing or login for half an hour and luck a Titanforged mythic from a World Boss. It's a complete joke.

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Now go back and read my edit. :) Once you finish the story you can't repeat it except through a very specific system coming later so you lose the largest piece of content the game has. Who honestly cares about rng upgrades other than bleeding edge raiders? They have more than enough ways to upgrade your character. Titanforging is just a bonus.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Defending XIV's quantity of end game content is trolling, full stop. I do love this game, but no one should be defending XIV's end game formula. It is just entirely lacking.

Also the following:
-> Just because you have "more than enough to do" does not mean there is enough end game content.
-> Leveling, crafting, maps, old Ultimates, mount grinding etc, is not end game content. You do not get to redefine what terms mean to suit your argument.

The 4 savage bosses per six months really hurts the long term chances of keeping players around. Every other content that is put in the game (ex trials and 24-player raids) is smashed the first day by PUGs. If the 24-player raids were actually 8-player raids—and so we'd get 4 savage bosses + ex trial every three months—is something that would change the entire situation. But as it is, it's really hard to stick around. My subscription lapses in about five days, and while Shadowbringers is one of the best MMO expansions I've ever played, I'm likely to let it lapse because I know I have, maybe, a week or two of engaging content after savage drops before I'm bored until sometime next year. This really isn't acceptable.

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This essentially has been the case for years now...i have been playing off and on since 1.0 and the end game formula has barely changed over the years because people are generally more satisfied with the carebear/filler content. To each their own, but if we are truly talking end game content, the game has been sorely lacking in the department for a very long time now. Dynamis, sea, sky etc......those were great examples. Pitchforks incoming lol..

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

I definitely feel like this game never really has enough content, especially if progression raiding doesn't interest you. That's why I unsub for roughly half of every expansion. Never really had that issue with WoW. If I unsubbed from WoW, it's because I was bored of WoW, not because I ran out of things I could do. It would be nice if there were more things to do, but I'm not going to hold my breath. They seem pretty content with their formula. All of the random nonsense that got added in ARR seems to have been a fluke.

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The real problem with FFXIV is the lack of true raids, like it used to be in EQ1 or WoW. Eg areas with a large number of encounters you need to handle with a decent amount of players. Here in FFXIV what people call raids aren't really raids.

The formula works for the vast majority of players. If you're only interested in raiding then unsub until more raids come out, but raiding is not the only end game content.

These post get old after a while. Same non-issues that have brought up fro the last 6 years.

Mythic+ is a blight that damages the entirety of WoW. It's a black hole of system that should be expunged as the failure to promote positive gameplay that is it. Titanforging is a pointless Skinner Box designed to promote MAUs. AP grind Rental Gear based on P2W systems and contains all their faults.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Defending XIV's quantity of end game content is trolling, full stop. I do love this game, but no one should be defending XIV's end game formula. It is just entirely lacking.

Also the following:
-> Just because you have "more than enough to do" does not mean there is enough end game content.
-> Leveling, crafting, maps, old Ultimates, mount grinding etc, is not end game content. You do not get to redefine what terms mean to suit your argument.

The 4 savage bosses per six months really hurts the long term chances of keeping players around. Every other content that is put in the game (ex trials and 24-player raids) is smashed the first day by PUGs. If the 24-player raids were actually 8-player raids—and so we'd get 4 savage bosses + ex trial every three months—is something that would change the entire situation. But as it is, it's really hard to stick around. My subscription lapses in about five days, and while Shadowbringers is one of the best MMO expansions I've ever played, I'm likely to let it lapse because I know I have, maybe, a week or two of engaging content after savage drops before I'm bored until sometime next year. This really isn't acceptable.

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So Eli, do you do EX primals and/or Savage? There is something for everyone, but are you willing to surpass your limits for some nice rewards, or will you just be satisfied with the status quo?

As far my case, I stick around because I want to do challenging content, get some neat rewards (mounts, bragging rights, etc.), and meet new people. Someday, I might be good enough to do Savage more often.

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Originally Posted by Ibkee

What?

The WoW endgame is the most depressing, un-rewarding, un-fun, RNG-filled grindfest in MMOs. You can play for weeks and get nothing or login for half an hour and luck a Titanforged mythic from a World Boss. It's a complete joke.

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I believe she's referring to how well WoW keeps people on the treadmill- which is does do better than other games, largely because your chance of getting upgrades is not only random but very, very low percent random. You can play every day, all day, for a patch and still not even have a single BiS item for that tier, much less an entire set.

Content wise though, if we were to remove gear and just have the game stand on merit of the content they give us... WoW's downright abysmal and has always been so. 90% of what WoW pushes out is rewrapped older content with different flavour text. There's no story, no impact, and no character development in game- even what little there is for the few actual heroes with backstory (Sylvanas, Anduin, etc...) is not in game, you interact almost nothing with them and most of what you see is a few cutscenes you're not a part of.

Dungeons perhaps have one or two interesting boss mechanics, but largely WoW dungeons are wading through pointless trash, and the big 'challenge' is to not pull extra packs. Like everything else, WoW hits you with quantity, not quality. Ease aside, I like that 'trash' packs in FFXIV are encounters, even as early as the first 24 man; the fight with the dragons, or with the cloned versions of earlier bosses feel like an encounter on their own. That to me is significant, that I can recall trash fights in this game, while I'm going through BfA's next raid and each hall is just more swarms of naga and utterly forgettable. The last significant trash pack I can recall in WoW, as annoying as they were, were the anubisah before Twin Emps, but that's a decade and a half ago.

Now, not saying they shouldn't have more in FFXIV- but I honestly don't think the lazy, thoughtless endgame of WoW should be emulated for anyone who wants to have fun, because nothing about WoW endgame involves a dev trying to make a fun encounter outside of the raid bosses (which, btw, pugs will clear week one and farm, not for joy, but for gear). The endgame of WoW is made solely to keep you playing the longest at the lowest development cost possible- and repetitive, uncreative, copy paste content is how they do it- I mean, the dev team in WoW is so lazy, they even copy pasted BfA's story from MoP.

Great game for investors, low costs and more MAUs is great if you intend to invest in Actiblizzard.

But I personally am growing more interested in this game because of the quality so far (I am only at the start of Stormblood), and I'd rather have three months of enjoyable, quality content a year than be subbed the full year doing WQs for 0.01% droprates in WoW.

I very relative get out of content, even in WoW for me happens the same thing. Run the same thing for a little bit of change to think that is content show why the game is in a bad state. Ppl think that is new content and you think that they are working.

But when you get in the real end game of ffxiv, you will find content for a lot of time. Glamour is the real end game and takes forever: doing old relics, run dng 30+ times to get a specific drop. To use for 5 weeks and find a better one and do all over again.

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Originally Posted by Avraym

I mean - the thread title does say end game content :P

The game offers a LOT of non end game content, like what you mentioned, but this is a discussion specifically for max level content.

But thank you for giving examples. Other opinions are always valued.

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Glamour is the end game

Pretty much because the expansion doesnt really get endgame content until the x.1 patch which introduces the new extreme trial, 24 man raid, the exploratory zone, additional crafting recipes, etc.

Yeesh, the reading comprehension in this thread...stopped reading the replies after page 7.

In any case, usually mmorpgs offer a 1:1 for their players. You can only pick one class for one character, can typically only progress for rewards to that class and chr. If you want to play another class, you have to make a chr from scratch and start your reward/content progression from start as well for that chr. That's why devs offer a lot at endgame for those type of games.

Ff14 does the reverse because everything can be progressed on a single chr. Thus it becomes very apparent that the devs have cashed in their chips on that concept to "pad out" endgame activities. After all, you could make the technicality of, say for example, completing all chocobo goals is endgame if you managed to cap all your jobs. It's a thin technicality but this is what SE is essentially counting on when they execute their formula.

So yes, in conclusion, I do agree with the OP that endgame content is lacking in regards to lvl 80 in itself and only that. However, personally that does not bother me all that much. Ironically, because the formula has proven itself to be consistent, I don't have to worry about whether or not SE will add endgane content for lvl 80. I just simply have to wait, either by working on non-endgame specific activities or even taking a break and come back just in time for it.

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

I believe she's referring to how well WoW keeps people on the treadmill- which is does do better than other games, largely because your chance of getting upgrades is not only random but very, very low percent random. You can play every day, all day, for a patch and still not even have a single BiS item for that tier, much less an entire set.

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FFXIV is built with the idea that you don't have to log in everyday. The game was created so that you don't have to worry about missing a single day and suddenly be behind.

unfortunately this is widely accepted as to why ffxiv dies down quickly post expansion, pre-expansion people get hyped for story, job changes (not that they even really change much at all) and somewhat for some new fights.

They've accepted that this formulaic design is enough to keep the player base content which is what I honestly find to be the worst. FFXIV has never been about going beyond player's expectations with content, it's just about meeting them enough to not dissatisfy everyone.

Oh and of course tossing in some random content that nearly no one likes and gets quickly forgotten. (eureka etc)

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Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

So Eli, do you do EX primals and/or Savage? There is something for everyone, but are you willing to surpass your limits for some nice rewards, or will you just be satisfied with the status quo?

As far my case, I stick around because I want to do challenging content, get some neat rewards (mounts, bragging rights, etc.), and meet new people. Someday, I might be good enough to do Savage more often.

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On a personal level, I don't. I swore off 4 boss tiers a long time ago. I have no problem with the dedication or time investment required to clear savage, but it really isn't worth it if all we get is 4 bosses every 6 months (and, further, if you are a savage raider, the EX trials are irrelevant, purely from a gearing standpoint). So I will play at the beginning of the expansion, and then at the end (when there is a boat load of content). MMOs are just too depressing when you can clear all the challenging content in one night.

As for mounts, bragging rights, that's for children, honestly. Never used a mount outside of the company chocobo, and people who go around bragging about a kill in a video game, eh, they probably have some mental issues they need to address, or at the very least they have some self-esteem issues.

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Originally Posted by LilySkye

no, we dont

fates has almost no reward at all and they are completely boring

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So were World Quests.

There's no shortage of content. Some just have a habit of acting like there is just because what is on offer isn't custom tailored to their personal tastes and/or they have a huge amount of free time and the ability to rush through everything as quickly as possible. The crafting and gathering stuff alone offers a huge amount of content to engage with.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

On a personal level, I don't. I swore off 4 boss tiers a long time ago. I have no problem with the dedication or time investment required to clear savage, but it really isn't worth it if all we get is 4 bosses every 6 months (and, further, if you are a savage raider, the EX trials are irrelevant, purely from a gearing standpoint). So I will play at the beginning of the expansion, and then at the end (when there is a boat load of content). MMOs are just too depressing when you can clear all the challenging content in one night.

As for mounts, bragging rights, that's for children, honestly. Never used a mount outside of the company chocobo, and people who go around bragging about a kill in a video game, eh, they probably have some mental issues they need to address, or at the very least they have some self-esteem issues.

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Finally...someone said it....

This thread made me get back decorating. Because once you get a house, you never run out of things to do.

If I say some things already mentioned by other, I apologise in advance. Also I'm going to mention WoW, so if you get triggered by Blizzard, best skip my post lol!


For me, Eden was just like the Omega Duties and while some of the fights were really fun, I felt disappointed on how they went about linking the boss fights. I really wish Square-Enix would use a similar formula to what Blizzard did for the "Wraith of the Lich King". Have a big imposing building or area that you have to fight your way though, to finally reach the end. Ice Crown Citadel and Ulduar were my two most favourite raid in WoW and they really immersed you into the world of Northrend. I loved how you had to fight your way to the next boss and once you got there, you had a sense of achivement. I really don't like how they throw one boss at you, right after another in Omega and Eden, as it feels like there was a sudden lack of imagination, which we all know is not the case with the FF14 team.

In the last few months, I have migrated from using a PS4-Pro, to a "gaming" PC I put together on a budget, which is more than able to have the graphics turned up a health step above my PS4-Pro's version. I also did this because I wanted to be able to use Discord with the FC when doing these Duties. After getting through 3 out 4 Bosses on Eden, I just went "Why did I even bother?" Everything else in this expansion has been of such a high calibre, that Eden comes across almost as an afterthought. That has left a really bitter taste in my mouth and now I've done the MSQ, it's now a case of grinding for tokens, to get better gear and with there only being a handful of lvl 80 dungeons, it's going to get pretty boring, pretty quickly.

Normally when I see these kinds of threads, I just roll my eyes and avoid it, as I typically don't concern myself with the larger size Duties or Raids. However this time, I have also gone through this content and now understand why people are upset about the endgame content.

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Originally Posted by Unaki

WoW is brought up because it has nailed endgame very effectively.

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Back in 2009 maybe. Now you run world quests (similar to FFXIV Fates) for Heroic level raiding gear. Its got to roll titanforged to get there, but its not entirely that rare. That's the main reason I stopped playing their lastest expansion. Raids were fun, but pointless.

And lets not forget that current tier raids in WoW suffer from the same issue every other MMO except EQ in that fact its ONE current dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

I don't think FFXIV designs dungeons well enough to make m+ an enjoyable experience in this game.

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Its not a fun experience in WoW either. Very unpopular, a strong meta that leads to various jobs (class/specs) never being invited.

Those who do them dont even do them for fun or keep trying for harder difficulty. They go to the last level that has gear, and stop.

Also, the base dungeons are so easy that all mechanics can be ignored and are much easier than FF dungeons. Imagine what you experience in alliance roulette or MSQ being in all dungeons - mythic + in wow just forces players to actually do mechanics.