New drk is too much fun!

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Which is fine to me. But no amount of "X amount of people like this thing" is going to make me like, X thing. I mean I can't get enjoyment out of Fortnight and that's basically the most popular thing ever right now.

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Especially since we don't know anything bout who likes and why. Example, if WAR mains like the new DRK better because it plays closer to WAR, it's somehow irrelevant for me, since they already have the job that match their taste.

If SE one day decide to make DRK a DPS and more people play it because of that, it also wouldn't please me. Extreme (and somehow silly) situation, if SE decide that FFXVI will be a Call Of Duty clone because more people love FPS, it won't soothe my disappointment.

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Originally Posted by Awful

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...897&height=651

Was looking at this and a lot of people enjoy the new ShB DRK as well as other classes, figured I'd post this in here for anyone whose all doom and gloom, people like new DRK some don't that's fine but by the numbers (%) the red is people who like it and blue is people who don't like it.

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I won't say that poll is accurate for one specific reason and is bcs DRK get a call effect for the expansion theme and all the promotion and stuff, this make ppl that dint play the job or didn't care before stay on him now, in other words the job get filled with casual like how SAM and DRG in they respective expansions, so many ppl just base his opinion on the now, feels ok? Then they are ok, I consider that poll will be much more different if the expansion wasn't so DRK theme focused.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

People just like the instant result rather than using Dark Arts and then hitting another button.

DRK feels weird now and burns through mana faster. I guess that means I’m bad but I managed Dark Arts just fine so why am I burning faster? It may have been calculated out how your rotation/how much spam is expected but it doesn’t feel that way with the nerf tools and lower MP pool.

It’s not a bad class, heck it’s not like it’s Monk or Heavensward Bard. But I’m not feeling this version of Dark Knight and I maimed it as my tank the last 2 expansions.

Time to level WAR I guess cause they can’t balance it just make the other tanks more like it

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I agree, I think this feeling comes from the lower mana generation on Dark Knight now along with the higher cost. We were right around 10k mana last expansion and Dark Arts cost 2400, clearly the potency has increased, and the Mana cost also went up, but the cuts to mana generation via Syphon strike and blood weapon can really be felt. If you tap that button 1 too many times and don't have mana for TBN you can wait up to 30 seconds before you have mana to really do anything. I hope the address this is in the balance patch.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

I agree, I think this feeling comes from the lower mana generation on Dark Knight now along with the higher cost.

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I may be the odd one here, but I think the ratio between MP cost and mana regeneration should even be higher. The idea should be, for me, that Darkside would require some MP management instead of simply not-forgetting to use a skill every 30s. To the point that using Edge with 59s on your darkside timer waste nothing at all. Right now, you generate back those 3k MP in about 20s, without Blood Weapon, C&S, or Delirium. So, either the skills should cost more, you should regenerate less, or Darkside should be extended for less time.

But it's probably because I'm desperately in need of something to really manage for that job.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Especially since we don't know anything bout who likes and why. Example, if WAR mains like the new DRK better because it plays closer to WAR, it's somehow irrelevant for me, since they already have the job that match their taste.

If SE one day decide to make DRK a DPS and more people play it because of that, it also wouldn't please me. Extreme (and somehow silly) situation, if SE decide that FFXVI will be a Call Of Duty clone because more people love FPS, it won't soothe my disappointment.

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It doesnt play close to WAR.
Delirium does not change it.

I am tired to explain why, just play both, not on a dummy, in duty dungeon/raid.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

It doesnt play close to WAR.

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If you look at the three iterations of DRK, this one plays much closer to WAR.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I may be the odd one here, but I think the ratio between MP cost and mana regeneration should even be higher. The idea should be, for me, that Darkside would require some MP management instead of simply not-forgetting to use a skill every 30s. To the point that using Edge with 59s on your darkside timer waste nothing at all. Right now, you generate back those 3k MP in about 20s, without Blood Weapon, C&S, or Delirium. So, either the skills should cost more, you should regenerate less, or Darkside should be extended for less time.

But it's probably because I'm desperately in need of something to really manage for that job.

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The job is still about not capping mana or blood for optimal dps. You can generate 12k mana a minute, so that’s 4 Edges, Floods, and TBNs. In theory you should be, at minimal, hitting Edge every 15s (even during a Delirium window) . This is in addition to using your CDs and mechanics. I find myself constantly scanning my skills and mp bar to make sure everything is in CD and that I’m not at 10k mana. It’s been plenty busy for me personally, i breathe a small sigh of relief when there no CD to use and I’m sitting at 7k mana

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Originally Posted by Delily

The job is still about not capping mana or blood for optimal dps. You can generate 12k mana a minute, so that’s 4 Edges, Floods, and TBNs. In theory you should be, at minimal, hitting Edge every 15s (even during a Delirium window) . This is in addition to using your CDs and mechanics. I find myself constantly scanning my skills and mp bar to make sure everything is in CD and that I’m not at 10k mana. It’s been plenty busy for me personally, i breathe a small sigh of relief when there no CD to use and I’m sitting at 7k mana

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This is part of the problem I have. That we're sitting on MP at a very fixed and routine style. And maybe expand a bit on why I think the class feels off now.

You can't spam Edge, you need your MP for TBN. And you can't just not use Edge because it's a DPS gain thanks to it not only being damage but also refreshing Dark Side.

So you're left with having to use your skills on a very pre-defined loop. Now, Stormblood DRK might have had this same problem but that wasn't at my skill level. I wasn't good enough to see what the 'best' rotation should be. But now it's so low enough even I can see how and when I'm supposed to play the class. It's not Edge every chance you get it's Edge about every 3rd rotation or so, factoring in Bloodweapon and Delirium during their own separate usages by the sound of it.

Put a different way, I liked getting to the point where I could Dark Arts 2 Bloodspillers followed by a DA Soul Eater. Just hearing that "Ding" of the Blood Gauge gave me a small grin of "Time to go HAM!"

I don't get that with Shw DRK. I don't have anything to work towards or build up to. Oh I still have to build up for Bloodspiller but I'm more than likely to use it at X point at the rotation. And even then, they gave us a Bloodspiller for free ability so I'm expected to go ham at a preplanned time. Going ham now just leads to you burning out.

Now, with Stormblood again the same thing might have happened. But I at least felt that you had enough resources to go ham and build back up to the point you could go ham and spam pretty decently. That doesn't feel like the case now, it feels like I have to claw my way back up. While I might get some flack for it; Before if I didn't have MP for TBN, well I might have enough Blood for Delirium and hey look I have TBN now. But I'm going to be fully expected to hold 3k MP in reserve at all times because there's no way to quickly gain the MP you need for it(Which hmm, I liked TBN before but I can't help but question if making it SO good now was actually a good thing, especially in the long run)

I'm stuck between using an OCD abiltity at very clear pretimed spots, and not using it even though thanks to the UI everything in my gamer trained mind is saying to hit the button.

If people like this more ordered, straight flowing feeling of DRK, then I'll just have to either deal or drop it. And I can't deal with it so off to Gunbreaker?

I mean even in SB we had a preferred rotation, the only question was whether you used Dark Arts on Syphon Strike or Soul Eater. But while I understand your point, I’ll have to respectfully disagree. It focuses on the job itself in isolation and not the job in the context of the increasingly difficult mechanics of boss fights and the increased damage overall. To put it another way Square would like to reduce the complexity of each individual job while increasing the complexity of the content and the required teamwork to clear the fights. We won’t see that now as most of the content is leveling based which has always been fairly simplistic.

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Originally Posted by Delily

I mean even in SB we had a preferred rotation, the only question was whether you used Dark Arts on Syphon Strike or Soul Eater. But while I understand your point, I’ll have to respectfully disagree. It focuses on the job itself in isolation and not the job in the context of the increasingly difficult mechanics of boss fights and the increased damage overall. To put it another way Square would like to reduce the complexity of each individual job while increasing the complexity of the content and the required teamwork to clear the fights. We won’t see that now as most of the content is leveling based which has always been fairly simplistic.

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And yet at times I got away with Dark Arts on Syphon, Soul, and Bloodspiller. Was it the preferred rotation or the correct thing to do at the time? Probably not but it felt good to just shrug and blow it. Would I do this every time? No of course not but simply being able to do that felt good.

As for the boss fights, I don't see that being enough to change it and if it DOES change the feeling, it's the fight that's good. Not the actual class. Put another way, I don't think the fights are going suddenly make MNK fun to play if you didn't like what they did(or keep doing) to it. DRK shouldn't get a free pass.

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Originally Posted by shao32

I won't say that poll is accurate for one specific reason and is bcs DRK get a call effect for the expansion theme and all the promotion and stuff, this make ppl that dint play the job or didn't care before stay on him now, in other words the job get filled with casual like how SAM and DRG in they respective expansions, so many ppl just base his opinion on the now, feels ok? Then they are ok, I consider that poll will be much more different if the expansion wasn't so DRK theme focused.

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The poll is accurate.

Even if a big part of the poll consists of new ppl who just started playing DRK because of the expansion theme, it doesn't really change the fact that they're playing the current DRK and are satisfied with the iteration.

There are countless reasons for ppl to change jobs, it can be because the job's being the main hero of the expansion, or because it got the number, or just because of the difficulty or anything, but it doesn't really change the fact that everyone's opinion is valid. Having touched the job longer than others doesn't make your vote value higher than others.

I'm sorry if i sound rather rude, but I just find it strange how being casual makes their opinion not accurate or irrelevant.

I think the poll won't change even if the expansion isn't DRK theme focused. Majority won't suddenly come to love current AST and SCH even if the expansion's called Starbringer or Fairy-Godmother. It's all the iteration that ppl are looking at.




I won't say which DRK is better and which is worse, it's all about personal preference. I'm enjoying the current DRK, and I'm sorry many of you couldn't enjoy it. We won't be changing each others' opinions, so can we please at least not disdain each other and be less hostile... it feels kinda unpleasant having ppl saying the job I'm trying my best at right now boring, horrid, shitty etc anything and everything subjective.

I'm here to support OP voice as well. While this iteration of DRK might not be what most of the veteran players want, I still find it quite enjoyable at lvl 80 while doing extreme trails.

The hostility in this thread is a bit too much. I don't understand the people who act all condescending towards people that like this new version of DRK.

To be honest, I think I would enjoy the current iteration of Dark Knight more if the cooldowns of the ogcds would be reduced by quite a bit and the mp generation would be increased. It has potential, but the problem is that it has too much of a downtime where you are basically doing nothing but spamming the 1-3 combo without anything else, with the odd bloodspiller or edge inbetween while waiting for bloodweapon and your ogcds. Gunbreaker works better in this regard because it's downtime is by far smaller. It generates its gauge ability after every combo, we do it only after 2 1/2 combos, which is a plus and its burst phase in terms of playstyle is ready every 30 seconds. You get your trigger-combo ready before the 1-3 spam can become too monotonous.

Delirium suffers in my opinion under the issue that it just doesn't feels impactful. The numbers are rather small compared to WAR and there is no big finisher like with PLD. The mp generation in single target is basically just compensating for us not using the 1-3 combo, so there is no mp-gain which would justify the ability being weaker than inner release. I think it would actually feel nicer if they would cut the mp-gain of delirium alltogether and instead make it so that bloodspiller generates edge. Maybe nerfing edge a little bit to compensate for it becoming more spammable if it would end up making the DRK too strong. Bloodweapon should decrease the gcd again or become a more frequent ability.

Delirium generating dark arts would give back a feeling of high speed which the DRK lacks, just like the GNB feels speedy due to its trigger ogcds.

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Originally Posted by Crescence

Even if a big part of the poll consists of new ppl who just started playing DRK because of the expansion theme, it doesn't really change the fact that they're playing the current DRK and are satisfied with the iteration.

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Yes, but like lots of things in this game, it could give the impression that they don't care about their "veteran" players, and only push the game so that it would attract more and more new players.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

As for the boss fights, I don't see that enough to change it and if it DOES change the feeling, it's the fight that's good. Not the actual class. Put another way, I don't think the fights are going suddenly make MNK fun to play if you didn't like what they did(or keep doing) to it. DRK shouldn't get a free pass.

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My point here is to weigh the complexity of a job against the requirements of the fight. I can understand how trying to make full use of the DRKs skill set from HW (for example) would prove to be too hard in some savage and ex fights and people would opt for an easier job.

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Originally Posted by Delily

I can understand how trying to make full use of the DRKs skill set from HW (for example) would prove to be too hard in some savage and ex fights and people would opt for an easier job.

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Yes, they probably would, that's why we have multiple jobs in each role. But, what about people who actually like a job with a more complex skillset ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes, they probably would, that's why we have multiple jobs in each role. But, what about people who actually like a job with a more complex skillset ?

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As much as I agree with you, Reynhart, look at how sch and ast feel right now. Its pretty obvious to me thats just the direction they're taking this game, it seems. According to the polls, their ire is reflected in at least 3x more than ours, seems like we;re just a vocal minority on this issue. So far SMN has so many buttons to push it makes SB DRK look like a slow class, I'm enjoying it quite a bit. PLD will be my main tank, but I will probably skip most of this expansion like I did in SB. Which is a shame, maybe I couldve been around more then to argue up a DRK rework that would have the best of both worlds back then. They seem to have balancing issues when it comes to tanks, Funny after all this STR fighting, we get str back on tanks after 2 1/2 years, but its now so controlled it wouldnt have mattered if they kept it vit/str with the new materia melding(1/2 of usable materia for 5 years now gone from the game) Pretty obvious that the direction theyre taking both of the roles, even since then, is one of too much similarity untill they feel and act nearly exactly the same. In those regards, they did a really good job, one that I highly disagree with. If theyre going to be doing that, they should just make DRK and PLD almost the same but one cast black magic and the other white. Thing is, I see the direction we're being taken, and that means self heals will probably go away from tanks/most dps, so they can streamline healers and make them absolutely necessary all the time, every time. Tank Stance off, is in the history books now, they put their foot down on the whole debate.

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Originally Posted by T-Owl

To be honest, I think I would enjoy the current iteration of Dark Knight more if the cooldowns of the ogcds would be reduced by quite a bit and the mp generation would be increased. It has potential, but the problem is that it has too much of a downtime where you are basically doing nothing but spamming the 1-3 combo without anything else, with the odd bloodspiller or edge inbetween while waiting for bloodweapon and your ogcds. Gunbreaker works better in this regard because it's downtime is by far smaller. It generates its gauge ability after every combo, we do it only after 2 1/2 combos, which is a plus and its burst phase in terms of playstyle is ready every 30 seconds. You get your trigger-combo ready before the 1-3 spam can become too monotonous.

Delirium suffers in my opinion under the issue that it just doesn't feels impactful. The numbers are rather small compared to WAR and there is no big finisher like with PLD. The mp generation in single target is basically just compensating for us not using the 1-3 combo, so there is no mp-gain which would justify the ability being weaker than inner release. I think it would actually feel nicer if they would cut the mp-gain of delirium alltogether and instead make it so that bloodspiller generates edge. Maybe nerfing edge a little bit to compensate for it becoming more spammable if it would end up making the DRK too strong. Bloodweapon should decrease the gcd again or become a more frequent ability.

Delirium generating dark arts would give back a feeling of high speed which the DRK lacks, just like the GNB feels speedy due to its trigger ogcds.

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I mostly agree with you, but I feel the fear more mp gain would bring us back to dark-arts spam like in stormblood? I mean I would be "fine" with that since at least edge/flood have different animations that are pretty cool. I also agree that something needs to be done so our downtime doesn't feel so long. Maybe a shortened CD on bloodweapon or just give the haste effect back to make things seem faster. But I'm guessing they removed that effect because they want gunbreaker to be the new "speed" tank?

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

According to the polls, their ire is reflected in at least 3x more than ours, seems like we;re just a vocal minority on this issue.

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I don't know how many we are, but I guess we're not that less than people asking for Savage or Ultimate content, nor people asking for exploration content. I think we're enough so that we could find what we look in one of the four tanks. Exactly like we should have had one option to play a competitive turtle tank back then.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

So far SMN has so many buttons to push it makes SB DRK look like a slow class, I'm enjoying it quite a bit.

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You're absolutely right. So, if people want to play an easier caster, they'll simply chose another job, like RDM.

On a sidenote, keeping Power Slash (either as a finisher or a full combo) to give 10 Blood and a buff (Haste buff being my favorite), would not have made DRK that more complex, and would've already fixed the issue of SoulEater-ing ad nauseum.

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Originally Posted by Crescence

The poll is accurate.

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of course they opinion matter but they are using this poll filled of casuals and new ppl that didn't play DRK before and like it now bcs its just a simple WAR to demonize the vocal opinion of the veterans that don't like the job now bcs obvious reason, it's like if SAM was gutted and over simplified with other job mechanics and call this expansion SAM expansion (it's just a example) a lot of pll will just jump and being ignorant of how the job was in the past they like it now, if you made a poll a great number will say they are satisfied, this is the same.

they are many opinions, somes like the job but don't like the lack of combos or delirium, others just complety hate it, othes just love it, others are ok but wish MP generation was higgher bcs the job is so slow now, there is a large varied of opinions about DRK and at least should be 2 polls one of ppl that just jumped to the job and other of veterans bcs the expansion call effect.

I agree with the statement that after the good opener, the downtime on DRK is too long. [EDIT] : I think the AoE Gameplay is fine. Love Startwart Souls animation and try to cast TBN as soon as possible to break it and cast Flood of Darkness. It's really the Single Target gameplay which has some flaws.

1.2.3 sometimes 4 (Edge or Bloodspiller) while waiting for CDs.

DRK has a good base but PLD and GNB seems more busy than us. GNB has 2 DoTs to keep on, + alternate normal combo and Bullet Combo (and Extra skill in between.)

DRK is busy at start then waiting 60 and 90 sec to do something else than 1.2.3 (and 4 sometimes). It can be boring for some/alot of people who were playing previous iterations of DRK.

I know it depends of players, it's a matter of tastes and I don't want to come back to the awful Dark Arts of the end of Stormblood (at the start of SB, it was not that worse) but I want more gameplay than 1.2.3(4) during 1 min while waiting for CDs.

I hope I explain this well, I don't talk about effective but about gameplay. And again, I know others peoples can disagree with this, it's okay to have different opinions. :)

DRK still a special job to me (played since FFXI and Heavensward) so I want it to be more fun to play. ^^

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Originally Posted by Delily

My point here is to weigh the complexity of a job against the requirements of the fight. I can understand how trying to make full use of the DRKs skill set from HW (for example) would prove to be too hard in some savage and ex fights and people would opt for an easier job.

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I suppose I can agree to that but like Reynhart said, there's a reason we have more than one job per role. I mean I can't wrap my head around SMN or even BLK to degree. And while that limits my Magic Ranged jobs, I do have MCH and BRD for my ranged needs. I always saw AST and SCH too complex so WHM for me. I never asked for AST or SCH to get change for it to be easier to play myself but I admit I'm in minority on that point(I wanted WHM brought up not others brought down).

But the thing is, I don't see new DRK as complex and boss fights don't look to change that. It looks to be on a very expected rotation with clear moments where you are allowed to go ham. Like I'm casual or even below that but if I can look at new DRK and take a fairly good stab at how it's rotation is, something is off. It's almost like SE got tired of the complaints and sat every DRK down and, in bold letters on the chalk board, went "This is how you're expected to play and there's no questions after the lesson".

I'm not allowed to make a decision on what to Dark Arts. I'm not allowed to another 1-2-3 hit. I'm not hyped by seeing my blood hit max. I'm on a very routine and expected track for the next 2 years. Now fights can and possibly will change some aspects of this, but not enough to make it feel like a different class.

Now does this make it seem like a BAD class. No, given that people are praising how busted TBN is(Though I'm not seeing a lot of people singing about how much damage we do, hmm.). It's just not the class for me anymore.

New DRK is braindead, and requires little to no skill or effort. The skill ceiling is essentially the same as the skill floor, minus maybe timing The Blackest Night so you can actually get Dark Arts once in a while... maybe. Not that it actually matters, anyway. You do Edge of Darkness/Shadow, then you do 1-2-3, use Delirium + Bloodspiller, repeat in about a minute.

And Living Dead is still useless unless you have a very aware WHM on your team. And honestly, I've never actually been in a situation where Living Dead would have saved me (when shit actually hits the fan you're going to die regardless) so I just took it off my hotbar.


I'm switching to GNB for fun times despite Superbolide being trash because the rotation is actually interesting and you have actual meaningful decisions. I will play PLD for serious times because it's still the straight-up best tank right now in terms of mitigation abilities, even with the changes to blocking and parrying.

All I can say is you can never satisfy the community

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Originally Posted by jetfire117

I mostly agree with you, but I feel the fear more mp gain would bring us back to dark-arts spam like in stormblood? I mean I would be "fine" with that since at least edge/flood have different animations that are pretty cool. I also agree that something needs to be done so our downtime doesn't feel so long. Maybe a shortened CD on bloodweapon or just give the haste effect back to make things seem faster. But I'm guessing they removed that effect because they want gunbreaker to be the new "speed" tank?

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It doesn't need to be spammed as often as the old dark arts, just more often. Delirium needs to be made more exciting. Right now it is just a worse inner release that doesn't even let us use more edge because the mp gain is even less than what a 1-3 combo would give us in 5 gcds.

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Originally Posted by Calcilis

All I can say is you can never satisfy the community

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It's an MMO, what did you expect.

Myself, I would have been happy if they maybe trimmed back some Dark Arts stuff so it didn't feel so, forced I guess for other people? But this just seems to be par for the course as I understand. People complain about a thing and they overreach in fixing it. Okay a lot of you hated the Dark Arts Spam, fair enough but out right gutting the mechanic? That's the solution?

I was the first one to adress with a thread "DRK will be nerfed in Stormblood", and DRK now is really fun. I don't feel playing a Job with useless skills anymore, all skills have their usage. I have mostly all Job leveled to 70 when I starter SHB, only leveled DRK to 80 and I really can't find myself in the other Jobs anymore. DRK has received a very good rework, not perfect, but it's really near perfection.

I would only change the mob cast to visualy indicates Magic damage or Physical damage, but its just a QoL.

I don't really like to keep placing Salted earth. I would love if they added 2 Salted earth, one with placed AoE, and a new one at the same level, sharing cooldown, to instant place on the target, same as Doton. Or even better, bring back Scourge as a single target version of Salted Earth, sharing cooldown. I know I can do a macro to place Salted Earth, but is mostly fails to performance, evento with macro lock.

It's fun to use Living dead with a WHM in your party, to bene you, but it's not with other healers, or solo. I would like it to be reworked to allow to be used solo and with other healers. Maybe: During Walking Dead your HP can go negative, if your HP is not positive at the end of Walking dead you will be KOd. That would be better than having to full heal.

in SB DRK didn't have useless skills, all of then have his time and place, you really miss TBN then too that was our breath and butter.

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Originally Posted by shao32

in SB DRK didn't have useless skills, all of then have his time and place, you really miss TBN then too that was our breath and butter.

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Dark Passenger.

*drops mic*

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Dark Passenger.

*drops mic*

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dark passenger was a dps gain with 2 and more targets what are you talking about? and buffer with DA you dealt masive damage in aoe, for no mention after the buff tdark passenger was usefull if slaishing wasn't present specially in the opener.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Dark Passenger.

*drops mic*

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The most powerful AoE the DRK has, mixed with mitigation on a job that lacked filler mitigation until the max level.
Every pull should have been 1 unleash, followed by a DA+DP.
From there you focus on MP maintenance, + ADs.

(the only time you couldnt afford to start with DA+DP was on pulls of more than 2 groups of mobs, which was mostly only in expert roulette, but you still built up towards it within a Siphon Strike.)

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Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

I don't really like to keep placing Salted earth. I would love if they added 2 Salted earth, one with placed AoE, and a new one at the same level, sharing cooldown, to instant place on the target, same as Doton. Or even better, bring back Scourge as a single target version of Salted Earth, sharing cooldown. I know I can do a macro to place Salted Earth, but is mostly fails to performance, evento with macro lock.

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Macro works fine for me to salted earth. :x

/macroicon "salted earth"
/ac "salted earth" <target>

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Macro works fine for me to salted earth. :x

/macroicon "salted earth"
/ac "salted earth" <target>

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Welp, good to you. It's not good to me. Most of the time I need to spam the button because it does not queue the same way as any ability.

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Originally Posted by MaraD_

The most powerful AoE the DRK has, mixed with mitigation on a job that lacked filler mitigation until the max level.
Every pull should have been 1 unleash, followed by a DA+DP.
From there you focus on MP maintenance, + ADs.

(the only time you couldnt afford to start with DA+DP was on pulls of more than 2 groups of mobs, which was mostly only in expert roulette, but you still built up towards it within a Siphon Strike.)

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Except that 4.0 DRK was way different than 4.5 DRK. Dark passenger was not always the same in 4.x. I remember a time when it was nerfed and did cost more than dark arts while dealing less than 140p.

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Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

WExcept that 4.0 DRK was way different than 4.5 DRK. Dark passenger was not always the same in 4.x.

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dark passenger have in 4.0 a potency of 100 with a recast of 30s wich is was still a dps gain in aoe situations so dark passenger wasn't useless at all, the main complaing those days was dark passenger wasn't usefull in single target anymore.

in 4.3 they buffed dark passenger to 140 potency and increase the recast to 60s making the skill have the same potency of a DA in single target situations but since slashing debuff was still a thing the buff wasn't enough.

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Originally Posted by shao32

dark passenger have in 4.0 a potency of 100 with a recast of 30s wich is was still a dps gain in aoe situations so dark passenger wasn't useless at all, the main complaing those days was dark passenger wasn't usefull in single target anymore.

in 4.3 they buffed dark passenger to 140 potency and increase the recast to 60s making the skill have the same potency of a DA in single target situations but since slashing debuff was still a thing the buff wasn't enough.

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In short: useless for single target.
Sole survivor also was useless, because we needed for something to die to receive Heal in the 4.0 build.
Blood price was nearly useless, that 5% MP regen was terrible. Only good when we get the blood gauge skills.

Not to include all the nerfed actions and abilities from 4.0.

DRK is much more complete now.

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Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

In short: useless for single target.
Sole survivor also was useless, because we needed for something to die to receive Heal in the 4.0 build.
Blood price was nearly useless, that 5% MP regen was terrible. Only good when we get the blood gauge skills.

Not to include all the nerfed actions and abilities from 4.0.

DRK is much more complete now.

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After the change to Quietus to give MP, I agree that Blood Price became pretty much a very useless skill. It just could never keep up with Blood Weapon, even in AoE pulls.

However, I disagree with Sole Survivor being completely useless. Yes, it did need a target to activate and die to trigger the effect, but the 4.3 change made it a much more viable skill with it just going off regardless of a mobs death, like Excog from SCH. Openers even had to change to compensate how useful 20% Max MP was. Not to mention the 20% HP was incredibly useful when planned correctly to mitigate damage from busters and the like.

All it needed was a shorter cooldown and a way to manually detonate it. It's a shame it was put up on the chopping block this expansion. The change in 4.3 was so good, it would have been nice to have it here as well.

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Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

In short: useless for single target.
Sole survivor also was useless, because we needed for something to die to receive Heal in the 4.0 build.
Blood price was nearly useless, that 5% MP regen was terrible. Only good when we get the blood gauge skills.

Not to include all the nerfed actions and abilities from 4.0.

DRK is much more complete now.

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situational and useless are 2 diferent things, flood is only for aoes too like dark passenger and is useless on single target, sole survivor being situational help to mantain you aoe mp economy in dungeons and was buffed so it was useful in single target too, blood price keep the MP economy in grit more or less equal to gritless and help to all those tanks that din't want to turn off grit on dungeons so it wasn't complety useless either.

this version of DRK it's just more basic and easy bcs all his complexity was removed say old DRK wasn't complete is false.

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Originally Posted by Esp

After the change to Quietus to give MP, I agree that Blood Price became pretty much a very useless skill. It just could never keep up with Blood Weapon, even in AoE pulls.

However, I disagree with Sole Survivor being completely useless. Yes, it did need a target to activate and die to trigger the effect, but the 4.3 change made it a much more viable skill with it just going off regardless of a mobs death, like Excog from SCH. Openers even had to change to compensate how useful 20% Max MP was. Not to mention the 20% HP was incredibly useful when planned correctly to mitigate damage from busters and the like.

All it needed was a shorter cooldown and a way to manually detonate it. It's a shame it was put up on the chopping block this expansion. The change in 4.3 was so good, it would have been nice to have it here as well.

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I was talking about 4.0 only. I agree that the various fixes DRK received were good and most welcome.

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Originally Posted by shao32

situational and useless are 2 diferent things, flood is only for aoes too like dark passenger and is useless on single target, sole survivor being situational help to mantain you aoe mp economy in dungeons and was buffed so it was useful in single target too, blood price keep the MP economy in grit more or less equal to gritless and help to all those tanks that din't want to turn off grit on dungeons so it wasn't complety useless either.

this version of DRK it's just more basic and easy bcs all his complexity was removed say old DRK wasn't complete is false.

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I'm trying to say that these abilities were bad and little impactful comparing to other Tanks. There's no such thing as a completely useless skill.
DRK was never "complex" in a good way in 4.x series, it was very cluncky and weird comparing to other Tanks. 3.X DRK was complex and good, you could do a lot of things, and it was really rewarding, even unbalanced at selected cenarios.

But there's another thing that could have a little change, the Bloodspiller/Quietus + Delirium spam, I think it's too similar to WAR and PLD. Maybe they could reduce BS/Quietus potency and turn then into oGCD, that way we can be a little bit different. But that's just a little idea, I'm fine as the things are now.

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Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

In short: useless for single target.
Sole survivor also was useless, because we needed for something to die to receive Heal in the 4.0 build.
Blood price was nearly useless, that 5% MP regen was terrible. Only good when we get the blood gauge skills.

Not to include all the nerfed actions and abilities from 4.0.

DRK is much more complete now.

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I would add delirium on top of it.

All it did was increasing BW duration by 8 seconds and giving 1 DA use of MP.
You basically traded 50 blood gauge to gain 140 potency and longer BW every second use. The amount of MP and blood generated by BW in those extra few seconds had a questionable gains and it was easy to just mess it up with timing certain skills and blood gauge. It was dps gain when you have the battle calculated to the exact right decimal, otherwise used was dps neutral or a loss if someone did not know how to manage resources and prevent overcap of them.
It was so complete and utter nonsense, since you wouldnt get back blood being spent on it in those extra 8 seconds, the best you would get was about 20-25, a extra key to press for such insignificant dps boost, sitting there just to mess up with your rotation. At best it was maybe a 100 potency gain total maybe a little more every 80 seconds.

I'm currently leveling DRK right now and I'm at level 60. Never played the HW or SB versions of the class, so I don't really have a good grasp on who DRK was in the past. Plus, this is also the first tank job I'm trying to level. What are my thoughts on the job so far?

Level 50 DRK is kind of boring. You only have a 1,2,3 button combo with the addition of Flood/Edge of Darkness. It sucks that Blood Weapon doesn't have the haste buff anymore. Would make grinding a lot more fun if it did. And I do wish DRK had some skill we can use to spend all that built up Darkside points. Oh, and Living Dead needs a rework. Either lower the healing requirement and the duration or change it completely. Seriously, this move is a bane to all healers.

Level 60 DRK is much better. The oGCD skills feel good to use and the rotation of the DRK changes drastically. However, those same skills have long cool-downs. Carve and Split feels good to use, but the 60s cool-down hurts it. Same with Abyssal Drain. Salted Earth is, well kind of useless. That 90s cool-down hurts really bad. So much so that the potency and skill duration doesn't help the move at all. Out of all the oGCD skills, Salted Earth is the one that needs a rework/buff. Plunge is the only oGCD skill that I think is just right.

Overall, I think I like the job a lot better now that I'm slowly getting toward the higher levels. I'm looking forward to seeing what the job has to offer at level 70 and beyond.