Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

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Originally Posted by Tellciel

Rule number 1. Tank you very much.
Rule number 2. Heal-u-all and be humble.
Rule number 3. Dam-I need to shut up and wait in Queue longer. { DPS }

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I like you. :)

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Originally Posted by Mixt

Personally, if someone asks me to pull bigger i will do so.

However, if it goes wrong and we die as a result i will point fingers at the people who told me to pull bigger.

"I did as you asked, we died, it is your fault because it was your idea"

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Making people feel bad is unnecessary. All you have to say is "I'll dial it back so we can stay alive".

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Originally Posted by Mixt

"BAD TANK! WE WIPED BECAUSE OF YOU!" They shout.

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I've tanked for a while now and I've died several times because of a large pull gone wrong. I've never had a group say anything like this to me. Maybe I'm lucky?

As for the subject at hand, it's very simple. If you want to tank to speed up, ask. If they don't, you sure can kick them, but you'll have to wait for someone else to replace them and there's no guarantee the new tank will be any better. So your call I guess.

Wall to wall pulls don't speed things up all THAT much because most jobs can't just AOE spam indefinitely without single target damage mixed in, the tanks and melee will be dancing around a lot more with more telegraphs to avoid, and healers give up more GCDs to keep up the tank so the DPS AOEs needs to make up for that.

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Originally Posted by Clicked

I've tanked for a while now and I've died several times because of a large pull gone wrong. I've never had a group say anything like this to me. Maybe I'm lucky?

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The sad fact of the matter is that tanks are usually the designated scapegoat whenever egotistical jerkwads who can't handle the idea of being held responsible for their own failures bork something up.

Unless the tank is the egotistical bastard, then it's usually the healer who gets attacked.

This usually happens in a manner that eerily resembles the way politicians attempt to deflect attention away from themselves whenever the press comes sniffing for their dirty laundry.

So yes, consider yourself lucky.

A tank should know their limit, so on certain leveling dungeons where i know things hit really hard, i don't pull as big.

Also a healer should know their limit as well.

Honestly if you are pulling small and a healer says to pull bigger, there is no harm in giving it a try.

If you die, just go back to your old pulls. At least that way you could say you gave it a shot and it didn't work out.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

It's a rule because the tank has the fattest HP pool, defense, and tools necessary to mitigate damage. It's not convenient; it's common sense. Those who feel otherwise are ignoring that rule, and/or lack common sense. What is truly an unwritten rule, is that tanks MUST pull large, or pull according to the strength of the party. THIS is the true convenience, because it takes an experienced tank not only with tanking, but the instance itself to be able to gauge the strength of the group.

I also don't want to hear anything about healers having more responsibility. It takes a dungeon like The Burn to even put any kind of pressure on experienced healers because healing is broken as eff right now. They get to DPS 90% of the time while sitting on their ogcds and regens. They have the most downtime out of the three roles. All players have a responsibility of staying out of the bad as best they can, and those who are really good at this make life even easier for a healer.

There can be a lot of reasons why a tank won't pull large, and at the very bottom of that list is, "Ima tank and a selfish prick. What I say goes!" And yeah, you were in the right for kicking a tank who pulled too much twice in a row without even checking with the healer. That's a lot different than kicking a tank because he/she doesn't pull enough. The former is a true detriment to the group, and putting unnecessary pressure on everyone.

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How is try to adjust the pull to the strength of the party lacks common sense?

Healers don't have more responsibilities because they mostly DPS?
Then how about the tank who spends 90% of their time sitting on their DPS stance?

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Originally Posted by Awha

So long story short, why is it that a tank role itself seems to be granted a greater degree of entitlement over say three other people in the group. Should the three cater to the desires of the tank simply because they are the tank, or were people right in saying that the tank role itself sets the pace end of the story.

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Ideally, it is a collaborative effort, and since this is a game with no real consequence, it doesn't hurt to try to do things outside of one's own comfort zone if asked by the party (assuming the party isn't being rude about it from the start).

That said, here are two reasons why tank may have more "privilege" than other roles:
1. Scarcity: There is simply less of them. Kick a tank and they can queue right back in while you possibly waste more time waiting for another tank, not so much the case with healer, and even less so with DPS.
2. Responsibility: Increasing the number of enemies to deal with at the same increases tank's responsibility more than the other roles. Tank has to manage enmity for every enemy while DPS switches to a simpler AOE rotation and healer still only has one tank to worry about unless DPS stands in AOE or tank fails to account for every enemy.

With regards to pacing, I don’t think it’s black-and-white in the sense that it’s always the tank who decides the pace (or always any other role that decides the pace). Any role in any dungeon run can decide what the pace of the dungeon is going to be based on several factors:

Tanks: gear, cooldown management, comfort levels
Healers: gear, healing/MP management, DPS capabilities, comfort levels
DPS: AOE management, gear (to a lesser extent than the first two, but it can still have a bit of an impact)


If a tank is poorly geared, they may not be able to do large pulls in some of the leveling dungeons, since those truck fairly hard. For the expert dungeons, it would depend on their gear and which dungeon—some pulls can be a bit dicey with poorly geared tanks, but generally, the expert dungeons don’t hit very hard. Also, if a tank seems to be allergic to cooldowns, that will also make large pulls more cumbersome because the healer has to babysit them as opposed to helping DPS the mobs down.

For healers, if they cannot manage their healing well enough to keep the tank (or sometimes themselves) alive, then that will slow things down as well. A healer with a poor weapon may also struggle, as their healing output will be significantly hampered by that. Healer DPS also goes a long with with large pulls to Zerg them down—WHMs are easily able to outdo a DPS with Holy spam, and AST can pull a significant amount of damage with Gravity spam as well. SCH has Miasma II.

For DPS, things are going to die really slow if they are those kinds of DPS that refuse to AOE because “it’s boring”. At that point, large pulls aren’t feasible due to their laziness—even if the tank and healer are well-geared/decent players. Eventually, the tank will run out of CDs and the healer will start to bottom out on MP. Gear on DPS can impact their damage, so that needs to be considered, too—but usually DPS hold back a run by refusing to hit their AOE buttons.


Ideally, I think for most dungeons, 2 sets of mobs (5~6 mobs generally) is the “standard”—the only exceptions here are the baby dungeons where there’s not a lot of AOE potential among the DPS. I’m more forgiving if the tank says they are new to tanking and may be nervous—though I do agree that level 70 tanks should at least try to pull more than just 3 mobs. Simply because the dungeons aren’t that threatening to them.

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Originally Posted by Nyvara

I don't care to do large pulls. I feel that it takes just as much time to kill several small packs as it does to kill one huge pack. Instead I opt to "chain pull" SO that when the first group or two I have pulled are down to 30% I'm already moving to the next pack. In this way I keep the pace quick and the packs small. Don't get me wrong I also will drag a pack of three to another pack of three.

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Honestly, this is really bad to do. Not only is it annoying for melee DPS that now how to follow you to continue attacking/upkeep their rotation, you also run the risk of a healer getting aggro on the mobs you’re running to pull through any regen ticks they may have put on you while you’re still tanking the first pack. Casters will also be interrupted if you move out of their range/from them having to follow you. Just wait until the first pack dies if you don’t want to pull big instead of running off with them later.

Large packs should be dying quickly if your DPS are using their AOE rotation. If they are not, then that’s why things take so long to die. Caster LB is also good for really large pulls—already a gain using it against that instead of a boss at sub-2% HP.

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Originally Posted by Fland

How is try to adjust the pull to the strength of the party lacks common sense?

Healers don't have more responsibilities because they mostly DPS?
Then how about the tank who spends 90% of their time sitting on their DPS stance?

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I never said adjusting to the strength of the party lacks common sense. I said tanks are under no obligation to do so. This is a courtesy, not a rule. A good and experienced tank will be able to gauge what the party is capable of, and pull accordingly. What is common sense is that it is the tank that determines the size of the pull. A DPS or healer can know that they are capable of bringing down more than one pack of mobs, and request the tank pull more, but ultimately it is up to him or her to do so. If they go on ahead and pull more mobs into the fray, they are NOT being courteous to the tank, and also making him/her feel like schite in the process.

Healers who DPS 90% of the time isn't the same as a tank who spends 90% of the time in DPS stance. However, both understand that the bare minimum their role requires allows them to contribute a modest amount of DPS to the group's overall damage. I might catch some flack from other healer mains for saying they have a smaller amount of responsibility, but the truth often hurts. Fact of the matter is they have the largest amount of downtime out of the three roles. If they are not contributing to damage, they would literally be standing around doing nothing with the exception of tossing a regen and an ogcd heal here and there; 90% of the time.

Much like large pulls from the tank, healer DPS is a courtesy to the other members of the group. It's not required of them, and there is no rule that forces them to do it. Kicking a tank for not doing large pulls is akin to kicking a healer for not DPSing. Both are only doing the group a disservice because now not only do they have to wait for another tank/healer to enter the queue; they also have to wait for one who happens to have PiP checked off in their duty finder.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I never said adjusting to the strength of the party lacks common sense. I said tanks are under no obligation to do so. This is a courtesy, not a rule. A good and experienced tank will be able to gauge what the party is capable of, and pull accordingly. What is common sense is that it is the tank that determines the size of the pull. A DPS or healer can know that they are capable of bringing down more than one pack of mobs, and request the tank pull more, but ultimately it is up to him or her to do so. If they go on ahead and pull more mobs into the fray, they are NOT being courteous to the tank, and also making him/her feel like schite in the process.

Healers who DPS 90% of the time isn't the same as a tank who spends 90% of the time in DPS stance. However, both understand that the bare minimum their role requires allows them to contribute a modest amount of DPS to the group's overall damage. I might catch some flack from other healer mains for saying they have a smaller amount of responsibility, but the truth often hurts. Fact of the matter is they have the largest amount of downtime out of the three roles. If they are not contributing to damage, they would literally be standing around doing nothing with the exception of tossing a regen and an ogcd heal here and there; 90% of the time.

Much like large pulls from the tank, healer DPS is a courtesy to the other members of the group. It's not required of them, and there is no rule that forces them to do it. Kicking a tank for not doing large pulls is akin to kicking a healer for not DPSing. Both are only doing the group a disservice because now not only do they have to wait for another tank/healer to enter the queue; they also have to wait for one who happens to have PiP checked off in their duty finder.

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If a healer chooses not to DPS, I would say it's more then fair to kick them if you questioned them, and they still refused.
I've had that problem before in the Party Finder while farming Sephirot EX. An AST *refused* to do any damage, and 100% focused on healing every fight.

Being able to play your class in this game doesn't mean you just need to do the bare minimum. People aren't going to, and shouldn't accept the bare minimum from others.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

What strikes me as odd is a group that is so willing to support a tank through larger pulls, completely changes their tone when he/she chooses not to comply. Talk about a two-faced group. You guys are/were so steadfast, that you were actually willing to take a disservice by having to wait around for another tank than just deal with smaller pulls. If I was that tank, I definitely would have blisted every single one of you after being kicked.

The group isn't entitled to jack schite. If you want to set the pace for a dungeon, then queue as a tank. They have that privilege and entitlement because it is a role with a lot of responsibility. Why do you think it's the least played role of the three? And you have to understand that crap like this is a big reason why they are the least played role, and will continue to be. Don't ever gripe about long DPS queues. I will be quick to bring up your OP if you do.

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Not a 100% certain why you have such a hostile tone, this is simply a discussion agree or disagree we have no reason to be combative with one another. That said I was not part of the group that initiated the kick, I was simply the tank that filled in when the asked within our discord. That said this conversation came about due to debate that came about within our discord group. I do get where you are coming from, but at the very least I do hope you can see where I come from even if you do not agree with it. While I cannot say for those that removed the tank, if I were in their position I probably would have done the same, though it is hard for me for to empathizes with the tank that got removed since I have only ever played tanks, and I tend to be extremely compliant with what the group wants even if it ends in failure, since that is how I learn best trial and error.

Though I will say the group is entitled to each player trying within the best to at least try to conform with the group. In my opinion no player has the right to hold any individual play style over the heads of the group, be it lack of AoE, ice mage, melee rdm, eos only healing sch etc . . . to me all of these are no different from a tank that simply refuses to at the very least "TRY" step outside their comfort zone. I personally would never kick or remove someone for trying and failing, nor would I expect a group to match my pace if the overall group does not want to. For me the group is king, since it is a collective effort. For me the most important part is that they try, I get how that could seem like a demand since yes I would be more inclined to remove a player for not being willing to try, though it is not I just think it is unfair to think that one person should dictate what the group does.

In the end if I created the hostile tone in my head, that is how I imagined your post sounding in my head I apologize if this is wrong.

I feel it's more group dependent, than any one player in the dungeon.

* I'll pull wall to wall largely despite other players in my party, unless explicitly requested not to. Mostly since I know I *can* do it even if the Healer isn't in great gear/or is comfy with healing, and even if DPS output is generally low. (And also why I generally do Dungeons on WAR, since it just... can survive for lengthy amounts of time while outputting pretty disgusting AoE damage).

* Before, when I was newer to the role and a bit scared of large pulls, I'd do them if someone asked me to in the party. The only way I got comfortable doing so, was when a healer said I could and they got me (they did have me). Kinda offered the same to a FC member months later scared of large pulls, but wanted to feel them through.

* If the entire group wants to go slower, I might inquire for why, but will probably do it.

* And I wait for people to be out of cutscenes prior to pulling bosses/do a ready check on the way (countdowns if requested, but otherwise I kinda just pull the boss post ready-check being done, largely just... most big CD's are already down from the last pull, but when people ask I do 'em 'cuz it doesn't really hurt me any. Dungeons sorta being the only content I tend to not do countdowns in lol).

* When I have a brand new tank, or someone who seems really uncomfortable, I'll probably offer some information here and there if I notice something that can be done better. Usually leads into more explicit advice as they ask me questions, and I kinda just choose to leave the pace to their own preference since they're learning, and I'd rather them learn than pull massive and stress either the healer in the party, or themselves too much.


In all of these case's it's not up to 1 or the other for a pace of a run. It's up to the party as a whole, and if the tank wants to go faster with a party who isn't saying anything, but isn't the best group, then it's on the tank to make up for the loss -- such as making up for DPS being low, or making up for an uncomfortable/inattentive healer. If a tank wants a run to be slower, and no one says anything, then w/e. But if they want to go slow, and the party doesn't, but the tank is uncomfortable, then they should mention as such, but it's also on the party to perform their roles to allow the pace they want to set with a less-confident, or less-geared, tank to succeed going forward.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

If a healer chooses not to DPS, I would say it's more then fair to kick them if you questioned them, and they still refused.
I've had that problem before in the Party Finder while farming Sephirot EX. An AST *refused* to do any damage, and 100% focused on healing every fight.

Being able to play your class in this game doesn't mean you just need to do the bare minimum. People aren't going to, and shouldn't accept the bare minimum from others.

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I'm not advocating the bare minimum by any means, especially in an EX encounter but we're talking dungeons here. I am merely stating the facts, and even in a dungeon if a healer outright refuses to DPS when asked, then kicking them is only going to be a disservice because now you really can't pull large at all, and may not even be able to clear a boss depending on the encounter. PF is available if you want to create a group that must meet specific standards such as large pulls or healer DPS. This isn't what roulette is for though. You choose to roll roulette, you choose to roll with the punches. Simple as that. And complaints we wish to express about such encounters has a 2000+ page thread that most people go to when they want to vent instead of creating their own thread.

Nope, don't care. Pull big or go home.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I'm not advocating the bare minimum by any means, especially in an EX encounter but we're talking dungeons here. I am merely stating the facts, and even in a dungeon if a healer outright refuses to DPS when asked, then kicking them is only going to be a disservice because now you really can't pull large at all, and may not even be able to clear a boss depending on the encounter. PF is available if you want to create a group that must meet specific standards such as large pulls or healer DPS. This isn't what roulette is for though. You choose to roll roulette, you choose to roll with the punches. Simple as that. And complaints we wish to express about such encounters has a 2000+ page thread that most people go to when they want to vent instead of creating their own thread.

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no one is creating a new vent thread. op asked for opinions about a situation they werent even directly involved in. did you even read the original post?

also you dont always have to wait for a rando replacement. people have linkshells, FCs, and even discord as was mentioned in the OP.

It is all supposed to be a team effort so, ideally, the group should be finding a common ground to finish whatever content is being done. Imo, both sides are kind of in right and the wrong. While 1 person shouldn't expect 3 others to comply with their playstyle, 3 people shouldn't have to comply to the playstyle of one person. It's a "difference of playstyles" thing.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Fact of the matter is they have the largest amount of downtime out of the three roles. If they are not contributing to damage, they would literally be standing around doing nothing with the exception of tossing a regen and an ogcd heal here and there; 90% of the time.

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You can totally do that as other roles too. You can do an overpower or just autoattack and AFK, it'll be fine if we're just talking dungeons. I've tested it out myself and there's been no issue. It just generally isn't done.

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Originally Posted by Awha

In my opinion no player has the right to hold any individual play style over the heads of the group, be it lack of AoE, ice mage

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Players are allowed to have basic expectations. Here are mine.

• Understand basic arithmetic and inequalities. e.g., 9x100 > 3x100 > 240
• Don't insult anyone.
• Don't purposely waste everyone's time.

DDs who refuse to AoE or who cast only ice spells fall into two categories.
(A) They don't understand which actions are more effective. If they are in this category, I will ask them to please AoE; or explain the basics of Astral Fire and Umbral Ice.
(B) They understand which actions are more effective but are willfully choosing not to use them. If they are in this category, they are purposely wasting everyone's time.

I'm not asking for 99th percentile play. Just that they don't sit there performing single target actions when they could be doing literally three times as much damage per GCD by AoEing. If they understand what actions are more effective, why would they not use the more effective actions.

That said, I probably wouldn't kick them unless they became hostile. I'd just sit there and judge them while I spam my 1200 potency actions.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Players are allowed to have basic expectations. Here are mine.

• Understand basic arithmetic and inequalities. e.g., 9x100 > 3x100 > 240
• Don't insult anyone.
• Don't purposely waste everyone's time.

DDs who refuse to AoE or who cast only ice spells fall into two categories.
(A) They don't understand which actions are more effective. If they are in this category, I will ask them to please AoE; or explain the basics of Astral Fire and Umbral Ice.
(B) They understand which actions are more effective but are willfully choosing not to use them. If they are in this category, they are purposely wasting everyone's time.

I'm not asking for 99th percentile play. Just don't sit there performing single target actions when you could be doing literally three times as much damage per GCD by AoEing. If you understand what actions are more effective, why would you not use the more effective actions.

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I agree with you, if I was directly involved with the group in question before I filled in for the tank they removed all I would expect of them is to try.The important aspect for me is the ability to try. I do not care if someone tries and fails horribly, the fact they tried is all that matters. I will brick wall on the content for hours if need be if I genuinely feel the group is putting forth their best effort. Mainly that is where my confusion came from within the my discord group because people in said group were bashing those for removing the tank, yet they complain when they run into ice mages, non aoeing dps, melee rdm etc . . . and for me I see no difference between players like that not trying and sticking to what they feel comfortable with be for whatever reason and the tank in question not even trying to do larger pulls.

Granted I was not their so I can only go based off what they said in discord, so overall for everyone in the thread I apologize about the lack of details and missing context, was not present so only sense of context I get is from the players that were part of it.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I'm not advocating the bare minimum by any means, especially in an EX encounter but we're talking dungeons here. I am merely stating the facts, and even in a dungeon if a healer outright refuses to DPS when asked, then kicking them is only going to be a disservice because now you really can't pull large at all, and may not even be able to clear a boss depending on the encounter. PF is available if you want to create a group that must meet specific standards such as large pulls or healer DPS. This isn't what roulette is for though. You choose to roll roulette, you choose to roll with the punches. Simple as that. And complaints we wish to express about such encounters has a 2000+ page thread that most people go to when they want to vent instead of creating their own thread.

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May I ask not sure if you have already answered it, but what you would say is a valid reason to use the vote kick feature? Should it only be used for extreme cases such as a someone going afk for an extended period of time? Someone being belligerent? Also this was not meant to be a vent thread more so a thread seeking differing views on the topic, since clearly people have differing views and I wanted to get a better understanding of every side.

I know other players for some reason want to do everything as fast as possible (and then sit and AFK for 6 hours), but I don't. I like to actually enjoy the game, not just get to the end. So I'll tank at whatever pace I feel like, depending on the dungeon, if I know the healer, and depending on how well the healer is doing. I don't care how fast you want to go. Kick me if you want, I'll just re-queue in 1 second while you wait 5+ minutes for a new tank.

I really don't get the obsession with having to do things so quickly. What hurry are you in? Do you have a dentist appointment in 20 minutes? It's like when people blast through a game at record pace and then complain it was too short.

Correct me if i’m Wrong, but isn’t this type of behavior frowned on with new rules now. Pretty sure they went out of their way to tell us not to try force our play styles on someone else.

Personally, I could careless. If they want to pull smaller pulls then by all means. The dungeon still gets completed. I did the same the rotations anyway and still enjoyed myself. If I am looking for a challenge then I premade.

The only time I speak up is at the beginning of an expansion when most of the time it’s hell and we are failing because a tank is trying to do too much and not using cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

I know other players for some reason want to do everything as fast as possible (and then sit and AFK for 6 hours), but I don't. I like to actually enjoy the game, not just get to the end. So I'll tank at whatever pace I feel like, depending on the dungeon, if I know the healer, and depending on how well the healer is doing. I don't care how fast you want to go. Kick me if you want, I'll just re-queue in 1 second while you wait 5+ minutes for a new tank.

I really don't get the obsession with having to do things so quickly. What hurry are you in? Do you have a dentist appointment in 20 minutes? It's like when people blast through a game at record pace and then complain it was too short.

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I think there's a huge difference between taking one's time and going at a glacial pace. I don't particularly care as long as the group is progressing at a half decent rate, aka not slow enough for me to die of old age, be reborn as a tree, grow up and die again before reaching the last boss. A lot of people prefer speed above all else though. I suppose that my opinion stated in this post makes me one of them...I just give a bit more leeway in regards to it.

If a Tank is just going to single pack pull, I'd rather just have a 3rd DPS. It would make the dungeon go faster, and healing a BLM who is tanking Mist Dragon would at least be entertaining.

Also as someone who has leveled several tanks over the years across multiple characters it is very rude to consider only yourself no matter if you consider you're 'the most important' role. If 3 people feel they don't want to play with you because you're not cooperating then I figure, fair enough. Whether it's actually integral to the completion of the duty is often inconsequential compared to wanting some say in how their experience goes and I can't fault people for that. Not everyone can queue as a tank because it simply wouldn't work. People want to level other things or play things they find the most enjoyable.

This doesn't apply to all situations, of course. If you're new or your healer can't see you through it, or DPS are not doing AoEs or other things that can change the context then there's more to argue about. But if the entire group is asking me to pull larger then I see no harm in giving it a go.

I really don't see what the problem is. It doesn't matter what role you play, you do what the party wants you to do.

If you don't, then you should be kicked.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Not a 100% certain why you have such a hostile tone, this is simply a discussion agree or disagree we have no reason to be combative with one another.

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If you're reading my posts, it shouldn't be too difficult to know where the abrasiveness comes from. Though it is not my intention to come off as hostile or belligerent, I do feel the need to express myself vehemently to get a clear point across. Those points are that we have so few tanks as it is, and kicking one for the reluctance to do large pulls is unreasonable. Especially from a group who 180'd their tone towards this tank, showcasing that their request for the tank to pull large wasn't a request at all; it was a demand.

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That said I was not part of the group that initiated the kick, I was simply the tank that filled in when the asked within our discord. That said this conversation came about due to debate that came about within our discord group. I do get where you are coming from, but at the very least I do hope you can see where I come from even if you do not agree with it. While I cannot say for those that removed the tank, if I were in their position I probably would have done the same, though it is hard for me for to empathizes with the tank that got removed since I have only ever played tanks, and I tend to be extremely compliant with what the group wants even if it ends in failure, since that is how I learn best trial and error.

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From this statement, the impression I get is a group willing to boot a tank that did not conform to their demands because they had a backup ready to go. It makes me wonder why they didn't just ask you to tank for them in the first place, and just eliminate the possibility of getting a tank that does not suit their playstyle. If these cases are indeed true, I see you as an associate to their demeanor, and I feel really bad for the tank that got kicked as it very likely didn't make him or her feel any better about their tanking ability. Not all of us can just get up and brush ourselves off from failure, and wiping an entire party and knowing it is your fault isn't always going to be met with the enthusiasm of, "Hey, we tried. No big deal." That tank that got kicked could just have likely came from a party where they were scorned for trying a large pull. We just don't know, except for him/her, and we'll never know.

I do see your side of things, and I know there are things that are not as black and white as I am making them out to be. However, I will never condone behavior that discourages the few tanks we already have. But I also don't encourage bare minimum play, and always believe players should strive to increase their skill. But this isn't something I can force. A player has to want to be better.

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Though I will say the group is entitled to each player trying within the best to at least try to conform with the group. In my opinion no player has the right to hold any individual play style over the heads of the group, be it lack of AoE, ice mage, melee rdm, eos only healing sch etc . . . to me all of these are no different from a tank that simply refuses to at the very least "TRY" step outside their comfort zone. I personally would never kick or remove someone for trying and failing, nor would I expect a group to match my pace if the overall group does not want to. For me the group is king, since it is a collective effort. For me the most important part is that they try, I get how that could seem like a demand since yes I would be more inclined to remove a player for not being willing to try, though it is not I just think it is unfair to think that one person should dictate what the group does.

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In this case, that one person is the tank. The least played role in this game. They are going to have more entitlement than a healer or DPS simply due to the nature of their role. In a dungeon scenario, they manage the entire thing, and the expectations of them are much higher than any other role; the spotlight is totally on them, and everyone tends to look in their direction should a wipe happen unless it is clear the healer derped, or a DPS check is not met.

I can't even begin to tell you how many bad tanks I've had in my roulettes when going as healer or DPS, but small pulls, though frustrating, has never been a reason that makes me think this player feels entitled and can do whatever the hell they want. You can't force someone out of their comfort zone. They have to want to, and have some level of confidence doing so. The fact that they even queued up as a tank alone might have already taken this player out of their comfort zone.

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In the end if I created the hostile tone in my head, that is how I imagined your post sounding in my head I apologize if this is wrong.

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I don't think you're entirely wrong and understand why you get this impression. Hopefully I was able to provide some insight and clarification as to why I do come off that way. I truly don't mean to paint you black, and definitely understand your PoV. I do apologize for coming off so harshly and appreciate that you have chosen to see my side of things despite this.

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Originally Posted by Riblet

If a Tank is just going to single pack pull, I'd rather just have a 3rd DPS. It would make the dungeon go faster, and healing a BLM who is tanking Mist Dragon would at least be entertaining.

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My favorite snowcloak run of all time is one where the tank bailed after the first pull and we went through the rest of the dungeon without one.

Tanks can have some value if you need to mitigate a heavy buster, but they're certainly not valuable enough to justify the ego some of them have.

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Originally Posted by Awha

May I ask not sure if you have already answered it, but what you would say is a valid reason to use the vote kick feature? Should it only be used for extreme cases such as a someone going afk for an extended period of time? Someone being belligerent? Also this was not meant to be a vent thread more so a thread seeking differing views on the topic, since clearly people have differing views and I wanted to get a better understanding of every side.

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I for one have never initiated a vote kick unless a player DCs. Even then, I'm aware that connections can be dodgy and have asked players to wait at least five minutes before kicking. That's not to say that I haven't dealt with toxic players. I've grouped up with some really rotten apples over the course of the three years I've played this game. I just understand that DF is a total roll of the dice, and if I feel that I am in a toxic environment, then I excuse myself from the duty and take the penalty. I have also never been kicked from any group.

However, the validity of the vote kick feature isn't my issue here. I think this group was within their rights to kick the tank, I just don't agree with it, and think it was really schitty. When I am dealing with high anxiety, or lack of confidence or something, I've always asked my FC to come along or created a PF explaining the situation if they were not available. It took me a really long time to hop into roulette as a tank without my FC or PF.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Snip . . .

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Overall I highly doubt they removed the tank because they had a tank in waiting, I have my status as offline most the time in discord and it was sort of late so I do not think they thought that far ahead. That said I do understand where you are coming from, but maybe it is because I mostly play tank roles I do not see myself as deserving of special treatment because my role may be less common. What confuses me slightly is your view seems to be based around a decent amount of what if's, what if they came from a bad group, had poor experience in the past, suffer from anxiety. Rarity of role is really enough of a reason to provide such consideration to a player of said role over any other role. Since as you said we will not know, if we do not know why should that matter? For all we know they were okay with being removed being as they were a tank and could instantly queue up and properly got a pop fairly quickly. Maybe in I am in the wrong for not viewing myself a tank and inherently more valuable since supply currently does not meet the demand. Just that mindset does not mesh well with me, and it always bugged me when people would tell me that in novice network when I first started. Hell, I had one mentor tell me to not even worry about what the group wants, as the tank you are the boss. Just seems counter intuitive in group based content.

everyone knows Healers are the gods,goddess of the party dps,tanks are only our puppets

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Originally Posted by Awha

What confuses me slightly is your view seems to be based around a decent amount of what if's, what if they came from a bad group, had poor experience in the past, suffer from anxiety. Rarity of role is really enough of a reason to provide such consideration to a player of said role over any other role. Since as you said we will not know, if we do not know why should that matter? For all we know they were okay with being removed being as they were a tank and could instantly queue up and properly got a pop fairly quickly.

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The 'what-ifs' have very little do with the points I'm trying to get across. They're just examples of what some tanks go through playing that role. I could also argue that healers have a lot of anxiety being responsible for the health and lives of the group, and DPS players always have to deal with no matter how good they are; there is always somebody better. Any which way you want to look at what players and roles are entitled to what, no one is entitled to make demands of another player. Especially when they're already doing what their role requires them to do. In the case of a tank; it's to engage enemies and hold onto aggro. Large pulls are an expectation, not a requirement of this role. So when we boil things down, this tank was kicked for not meeting the expectations of the group.

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Maybe in I am in the wrong for not viewing myself a tank and inherently more valuable since supply currently does not meet the demand. Just that mindset does not mesh well with me, and it always bugged me when people would tell me that in novice network when I first started. Hell, I had one mentor tell me to not even worry about what the group wants, as the tank you are the boss. Just seems counter intuitive in group based content.

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Whether you see yourself this way or not, you are more valuable due to high demand, low supply. It's just how such things work. You choosing not to be an asshat tank as a result of this privilege show humility on your part; making you even more valuable to the groups you join. But this isn't my point either. Everything, and I do mean everything in my posts is about players being courteous and respectful to one another. It really doesn't matter if you're a tank, healer, or DPS. Everyone has a right to use the duty finder, and the vote kick is abused due to "differences in playstyle". It's not cool. The vote kick should only be used in the most extreme cases which are laid out as the reasons when using this option. This tank that was kicked didn't do any of those, so what would you call it?

I only ever do small pulls if it's my first time in a dungeon or I haven't been in a dungeon in a really long time (and as someone who hasn't touched expert in months, that last one is very likely). If I'm familiar with the dungeon, I'll pull as much as I can (provided the healer isn't new). If the healer can't handle it, I'll tone it down next time.

That said, I don't really care much for big or small pulls. I find that we're not out of the dungeons that much faster when we do bigger pulls.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Those points are that we have so few tanks as it is, and kicking one for the reluctance to do large pulls is unreasonable.

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That's a ridiculous statement. You don't get a free pass at doing what you want just because you play a role that is in demand. That's absolutly not how it works.
And don't try to use that "muh responsabilities" argument, it's a total fraud. Again, the weight of these "responsabilities" doesn't give you the right to ignore the will of the majority of the group just because you want to watch Netflix after throwing a few Flash/Overpower and pressing a cooldown once in a while. You claim that healing is easy, well, guess what, tanking is even easier. Trying to argue otherwise would only show how little knowledge one would have on tanking (at least in dungeons).

You want to know an actual reason why a lot of players don't play tanks? Because of people like you, who make it look like tanking is so hard and would put tons of responsabilities on their shoulders. So if you could drop that line of thinking and stop spreading it, maybe people would actually start being less anxious at something that is clearly not as bad as you make it sound.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I never said adjusting to the strength of the party lacks common sense. I said tanks are under no obligation to do so. This is a courtesy, not a rule.

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Calling something that is at the core of a tank's duty and teamplay a "courtesy" is preposterous.
And even then, if you are not courteous in a multiplayer environment -or think is okay not to be as if it was optional-, then you not only fail at being a tank or even a team player as I said previously, but you also fail as a human being for lacking any kind of empathy and decency toward your teammates. Like, really, you are trying to make an argument excusing bad teamplay because "you're not forced to be courteous". Are you really aware of what kind of argument you are using and how toxic that kind of behavior would be if it was widespread?
Whatever the case, yes, adapting your pulls to your party is a rule. That's one of your main job as a tank. Arguing otherwise makes me wonder who is lacking common sense here. So if 3 out of 4 people want you to pull more, you being the 4th, and if you don't have a good reason not to (and no, "being a tank with responsabilities" is not a good reason), then you should pull more. Period. Refusing to do so -for no valid reason- only opens yourself to get kicked for "differences in playstyle". And it would be deserved.

Tanks are not precious. They don't have more privileges or entitlement than other players. Stop thinking they are some kind of snowflakes that everyone should protect and blindly follow without being able to contest their decisions.
If your party doesn't like the way you play, try to ask you to change and you refuse, you get kicked. Tank or not. And I'm saying that as someone with more than 4 years of tanking in this game, and more in others. I would gladly take a kick if I was not "courterous" in a dungeon or if I tried to play selfishly for no reason other than a self-proclaimed entitlement.

Nobody are entitled and nobody should force a type of playstyle on others if there wasn't a previous agreement like in a party finder.

We don't know well the details but under the reasons for kicking there isn't anything even close to justify that.

They could've and should've disbanded by common agreement and queue the duty again covering the roles more involved in the game style they wanted.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I never said adjusting to the strength of the party lacks common sense. I said tanks are under no obligation to do so. This is a courtesy, not a rule. A good and experienced tank will be able to gauge what the party is capable of, and pull accordingly. What is common sense is that it is the tank that determines the size of the pull. A DPS or healer can know that they are capable of bringing down more than one pack of mobs, and request the tank pull more, but ultimately it is up to him or her to do so. If they go on ahead and pull more mobs into the fray, they are NOT being courteous to the tank, and also making him/her feel like schite in the process.

Healers who DPS 90% of the time isn't the same as a tank who spends 90% of the time in DPS stance. However, both understand that the bare minimum their role requires allows them to contribute a modest amount of DPS to the group's overall damage. I might catch some flack from other healer mains for saying they have a smaller amount of responsibility, but the truth often hurts. Fact of the matter is they have the largest amount of downtime out of the three roles. If they are not contributing to damage, they would literally be standing around doing nothing with the exception of tossing a regen and an ogcd heal here and there; 90% of the time.

Much like large pulls from the tank, healer DPS is a courtesy to the other members of the group. It's not required of them, and there is no rule that forces them to do it. Kicking a tank for not doing large pulls is akin to kicking a healer for not DPSing. Both are only doing the group a disservice because now not only do they have to wait for another tank/healer to enter the queue; they also have to wait for one who happens to have PiP checked off in their duty finder.

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But it still based on the party. The tank is not entitled to determine the pull based on themselves, otherwise you also imply tanks are entitled to do large pulls even with new, inexperienced, or undergeared healer/DPS because they themselves can and are equipped to do so.

Basically, adjusting pull to party works in every case, including the case where the party adjust to new, inexperienced, or undergeared tanks.
But adjusting pull solely on tanks only works in case where the tanks are new/undergeared, but not when other party members are.
So tanks sole entitlement is not common sense.

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Originally Posted by Greven

Nobody are entitled and nobody should force a type of playstyle on others if there wasn't a previous agreement like in a party finder.

We don't know well the details but under the reasons for kicking there isn't anything even close to justify that.

They could've and should've disbanded by common agreement and queue the duty again covering the roles more involved in the game style they wanted.

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There is zero reason to disband when the problem can be solved by kicking a single person.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

There is zero reason to disband when the problem can be solved by kicking a single person.

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So one person has a penalty forced on them because the run will take 5 mins longer? I’m not even a tank and this annoys me. Never mind it’s this type of behavior that helped facilitate their “new rules”. If the tank is steadily pulling and the dungeon is clearing kicking them is harassment. If it bothers a player that much to not large pull they could drop the duty. Oh! But wait! If they do that then they are penalized. So they penalize someone else instead. If I ever witnessed this I might report the others myself. If I ask a tank to large pull and they refuse in a non douchebag manner then I can stay or I can leave. If they want to be toxic then they can go.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

There is zero reason to disband when the problem can be solved by kicking a single person.

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As I said we don't know the details, maybe the tank was being just selfish and lazy? Then yeah kick is the better option. But maybe the other 2-3 were forcing that person to do something he/she were not ready or willing to due for valid reasons, them being a group doesn't justify being bullies and the rules on how to use "kick" are there exactly to prevent this.

I agree disband sounds like too much but in doubt better behave with respect for the others. But if you want to look at it from a practical point of view: the time to get another player could be the time to do slower pulls. And again even if it was 1 minute slower.. who really cares? It's nothing.

Just to clarify, cause I've already seen people going personal: I'm main tank and I like to greet my party and pull and sprint until I hit wall. If I notice some something from a leafy to a low gear I sometime ask if it's okay to do big/fast pulls.

I mean, I can see why tanks want to pull as little as possible with the way that most DPS play in this game. People heap tons of responsibility onto the tank while putting very little responsibility towards the majority of the community, the DPS. That's why I, as a savage raider that's close to clearing UwU, don't really care which way tanks lean. A mass pulling tank AND their healer are both going to have very a bad time if they happen to be paired with DPS that don't AoE at all, and I consider that to be the biggest reason why there's such a major tank shortage in this game. Even I have no desire to tank at all after witnessing firsthand what happens nearly every time I actually did tank, so I opted to main Bard not only because I enjoy it, but because I can help make fights go a lot more smoothly than if I played as any other role.

That said, as a Bard, I do prefer if tanks mass pull, but that's because I have a responsibility to be prepared for them and nuke giant packs into the ground while simultaneously helping the tank and healer mitigate damage taken with physical Troubadour/Palisade/Nature's Minne. Due to the nature of how our AoE is most effective in a 30 second window out of 80 seconds, Bard AoE encourages mass pulling for maximum effectiveness. Thing is, the way most Bards play, most tanks probably don't even realize this about them at all (I've had a few tanks get snippy at me about me mass dotting enemies during the pull, but I actually HAVE to if I want mass rain of death resets once the tank reaches the end destination and I switch into Mage's Ballad). Even so, mass or small pulling doesn't make that much of a difference to me in the end (since it usually means I'll be able to nuke a small pack into the ground with Wanderer's Minuet without having to worry about not having it ready for an opener at a boss instead), but it'd probably bother other classes in ways that I'm not particularly aware of.

Basically, what I'm saying is, maybe tanks and healers would be more comfortable going for faster/riskier strategies if they could actually trust their DPS to step up their game too. And the way this community reacts violently to any suggestion to push themselves to become better, the situation really won't ever change.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

So one person has a penalty forced on them because the run will take 5 mins longer? I’m not even a tank and this annoys me. Never mind it’s this type of behavior that helped facilitate their “new rules”. If the tank is steadily pulling and the dungeon is clearing kicking them is harassment. If it bothers a player that much to not large pull they could drop the duty. Oh! But wait! If they do that then they are penalized. So they penalize someone else instead. If I ever witnessed this I might report the others myself. If I ask a tank to large pull and they refuse in a non douchebag manner then I can stay or I can leave. If they want to be toxic then they can go.

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Kicking a tank who refuses to play effectively isn't harassment, nor do they get penalized.
If you want the reward from the dungeon, you gotta be willing to work for it.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

That's a ridiculous statement. You don't get a free pass at doing what you want just because you play a role that is in demand. That's absolutly not how it works.

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This is a ridiculous statement. From what I can tell, this tank wasn't doing what the party WANTED him to do; not doing what he wanted to do. He was there to tank, was doing it, and got kicked anyway. If you think I'm saying that you can just play how you want to play due to privilege, you have absolutely no clue whatsoever where I'm coming from.

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And don't try to use that "muh responsabilities" argument, it's a total fraud. Again, the weight of these "responsabilities" doesn't give you the right to ignore the will of the majority of the group just because you want to watch Netflix after throwing a few Flash/Overpower and pressing a cooldown once in a while. You claim that healing is easy, well, guess what, tanking is even easier. Trying to argue otherwise would only show how little knowledge one would have on tanking (at least in dungeons).

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Ohhhh, I've been tanking dungeons for quite some time. Come along anytime to see how little I know about tanking them. I'm not saying "muh responsabilities"; I try to use proper grammar as best I can, sir. What I am saying is that the tank is under no obligation to pull large. The group is not entitled to make demands, which they did. Want to disagree with that? Go right ahead.

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You want to know an actual reason why a lot of players don't play tanks? Because of people like you, who make it look like tanking is so hard and would put tons of responsabilities on their shoulders. So if you could drop that line of thinking and stop spreading it, maybe people would actually start being less anxious at something that is clearly not as bad as you make it sound.

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Resorting to personal attacks now are we? That's indicative of intellectual bankruptcy, but go right ahead and keep going with your trite strawman arguments. I never said tanking was hard. Go ahead and point out where I did. I just said it has more responsibility, which it does. Responsibility =/= difficulty.

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Calling something that is at the core of a tank's duty and teamplay a "courtesy" is preposterous...

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Ok, probably best I end this argument with you right here. You're on a tangent and clearly infallible. My humblest of apologies for ruffling thy feathers, my lord.