(Spoilers) Ghimlyt difficulty was a step down from the Burn...and that needs to stop

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Originally Posted by linay

As his main job? Those dungeons weren't exactly easy to do without using defensive cooldowns, at least in my experience. Unless he only went with really great friends who carried him, I am more inclined to believe that he lied to you than him using WAR as his main to 70 without knowing his abilities.

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Oh you wouldn't believe how many people out there main something since ARR but don't know at all how to play it. Had a PLD back in HW where i had to explain that tabbing through the mobs and hitting each and every one of them is a way more effective option to hold hate than spamming flash and focus only one mob with his aggro combo. He felt insulted, called me out for beeing rude and a liar and left the dungeon after i tanked most of his pulls as DPS.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

Oh you wouldn't believe how many people out there main something since ARR but don't know at all how to play it. Had a PLD back in HW where i had to explain that tabbing through the mobs and hitting each and every one of them is a way more effective option to hold hate than spamming flash and focus only one mob with his aggro combo. He felt insulted, called me out for beeing rude and a liar and left the dungeon after i tanked most of his pulls as DPS.

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That I can actually believe as it's more of a playstyle optimization issue, like tanks who are too lazy to use their cooldowns. I'm more surprised about tanks who say they don't know what their cooldowns are at level 70.

Then again, I must admit to having played BLM from 1 to past level 50 (maybe even reaching 60) without using fire spells in dungeons (because I hated having to manage MP) and never hearing any actual complaint. (I only started using fire spells after overhearing a discussion on BLM rotations between fellow FC members.) But I would think a healer at the very least would complain about a tank who doesn't use cooldowns (even if they can keep them alive without it) somewhere before that tank reaches level 70. So at the very least he would be acquainted with those abilities even if he still chose not to use them.

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Originally Posted by linay

Then again, I must admit to having played BLM from 1 to past level 50 (maybe even reaching 60) without using fire spells in dungeons (because I hated having to manage MP) and never hearing any actual complaint. (I only started using fire spells after overhearing a discussion on BLM rotations between fellow FC members.)

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For all the Gods, the legendary ice mage is real!

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Originally Posted by Aeloria

My parents play this game mostly for the story and crafting/gathering, dungeons really aren't their thing and struggle. I help them get through things, but Castrum flumis(sp) and the burn were absolute horrible to get them through just so they can watch a few more CS and go back to crafting/gathering. There is a time and a place for over the top mechanics and MSQ isn't it. Heck if the burn had been one of the side quest 4 man's i wouldn't be stating this opinion. I welcome getting them through this final 4man it will be a piece of cake. Anyway.

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I think it's really neat you play this game with your parents. You couldn't do that with many games, it is why this game is different. I don't know how old you are or they are, but it's really great that you can spend time with them like that.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

It's only bad to players who fail to realize that at the end of the day, SE is trying to keep people playing. Make things too difficult, and they'd lose more subscriptions than they would making things too easy. So long as the vast majority of game income comes from casual players who just want simple fun rather than the tryhards wanting players to be more tryhard like them, that's the group that devs would best cater to. As for Ghimlyt, I'd say it's right where it needs to be as far as difficulty goes. No excessively punishing boss mechanics, no mobs whose hit boxes cause players to have to move out of the healer's range, the mobs are scaled to be enough of a general challenge to players going in at minimum item level and the boss fights themselves are in-line with scaling as well. The only real complaint I have is that the item level requirement for it is oddly well above the item level of gear that drops from the other dungeons in the expert roulette group.

Also, if you want content to be more difficult, you can do that by yourself. Run harder content at minimum ilvl or on a job you barely know anything about. It's far easier for the player to make regular content more challenging than devs to make content that would please everyone all the time.

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I don't want content to be more difficult. God stop it.
I want the game to have a proper learning curve, and a proper difficulty curve. I't shouldnt be, that a level 70 dungeon is just as simple as a level 30 one, and it shouldn't be that level 70 players cannot be bothered to play their classes properly (is not like we have a massive customization system, we literally have only ONE way to play, the right one) yet they can progress and alter other's performance.

That said, games are meant to be challenging, if not, there is no point of them, you might aswell play facebook pet games or something, that barely pass as videogames anyway.

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Originally Posted by Aeloria

My parents play this game mostly for the story and crafting/gathering, dungeons really aren't their thing and struggle. I help them get through things, but Castrum flumis(sp) and the burn were absolute horrible to get them through just so they can watch a few more CS and go back to crafting/gathering. There is a time and a place for over the top mechanics and MSQ isn't it. Heck if the burn had been one of the side quest 4 man's i wouldn't be stating this opinion. I welcome getting them through this final 4man it will be a piece of cake. Anyway.

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Then they shouldn't be doing this content, either they learn, improve, "git gud" or drop it, or dedicate to the plenty of other alternatives and hold the storyline for a while, options there are.
When did gaming became such a cattering to people that cannot be bothered to learn how to play, is basically asking for the game to be whatever.

Might aswell explain why we only get half-assed content all the time, SE has no idea of what to do since it has to pretend to design a game for so many, and is abandoning basic game design principles: Games have rules, you learn them and progress. Not the other way arround.

Kaiva, to be fair, two types of factors come into play here.

1. Both the Mist Dragon and the twins contain plenty of rehashed mechanics of their previous counterparts (Mist Dragon - Isgebind, Tioman, and Nunyenunc; Twins - Livia, Gaius, and Einhander). They are quite punishing to those who don't avoid aoes. In addition, both hit hard on their respective minimum item levels, which brings me to point two:

2. Gear really plays a factor of how hard a boss is. Back when patch 4.4 came out, most were only around the i340-i360 range. It was obvious Mist Dragon was going to hit hard with the tankbuster and the unavoidable aoe the first time around. But as players geared up, attacks didn't hit as hard and some mechanics are skipped.

By the time 4.5 came out, most were geared to the teeth at the i370-i380 range as 4.5 is a catch-up patch. The tankbusters and unavoidable aoes of the twins hit just as hard as that the mist dragon in their respective minimum item levels. But because most are really geared, the damage taken is pretty much negligible at this point.

In short, it's not that Ghimlyt Dark is easier because of having easier boss mechanics compared to stuff from the Burn. It's because most who currently do it are really geared ahead of time as a result of completing content in patch 4.4.

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Originally Posted by linay

As his main job? Those dungeons weren't exactly easy to do without using defensive cooldowns, at least in my experience. Unless he only went with really great friends who carried him, I am more inclined to believe that he lied to you than him using WAR as his main to 70 without knowing his abilities.

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To start I know from personal experience there's plenty of dungeons on the way you don't even need a tank (And if it has a buster, you don't have to cooldown it, to cover the rest.)

And second, this was shortly after the new tier came out, like week 2. He also did have mend 370 pieces, not every piece, but did. I actually ended up uh... going crazy in the chat when I saw that. I should'a put that info in too. My apologies.

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Originally Posted by linay

Then again, I must admit to having played BLM from 1 to past level 50 (maybe even reaching 60) without using fire spells in dungeons (because I hated having to manage MP)

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*Ree's in Lalafellin*

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

But...when did being casual equate with being bad? All I hear is that casual does not equal bad in other posts but now its being used as an argument for faceroll content. Pick your poison.

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You're the one that equated them, not me.

I said that it was made for casual, low-skilled players. Aka. players that are both casual and low-skilled. Just like a person can be a blue-eyed, red-haired human one can be a casual that lacks skills.

For people that still cannot see the difference...let me rephrase it.

This game was made for players with a low level of skill and not enough time or ability to get significantly better.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

It takes maybe 5 minutes of research to learn your rotation, if you want to remain bad because you are casual, that's on you.

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You are either fortunate enough to have no serious problems in your life and thus are ignorant of those that do...or are denying the reality, strong.

I won't even make excuses based on people that are genuinely crippled because I'm the first person that'll tell you that a games design should accommodate them only up till the point these accommodations interfere with good game. And in this game, I dare say the dumbing down does very much interfere.
However even more common matters like significant amount of stress, being overworked (and thus tired) or simply having a different learning method (some people learn by doing, others by reading about, yet others by listening about something etc.) all can interfere with learning rotation in five, ten or a hundred minutes. There are people that even after learning it will fail it frequently for whatever reason.

Rotations need to be muscle-learned. That requires time and again repeating them in quick succession. That's not something that yer typical person with limited time and having matters more important than a game can do. There are people that can indeed learn such rotation from just glancing over it. But I can assure you, it's not the standard. It's a skill.
I should know. My ability to learn such rotations grows duller with time and even though I could easily do that ten years ago, I cannot really do so without putting more time in. Age and what you do in life does significantly impact your abilities. A person that plays every day, even if only a short time, will be better at games in general than a person that games rarely or in bursts.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

In the first part of your post about design, you just described every Final Fantasy in existence.

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And every Final Fantasy in existence is rather easy to play through. The only place where difficulty starts rearing its head is the optional content...aka. Savage/Extreme/Ultimate.

Wait...no. The first some I believe were supposedly very difficult. But that's what I heard, I didn't actually play anything before V, and for V and VI I don't remember much either. But I don't recall V or VI being particularly difficult, really.
VII, VIII, IX, X and XII however were quite easy from beginning till the end if you did not stray off the main story. They could've been made significantly easier with just a bit of grinding.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

The rotation system feels like I am playing a solo game even if I am in a group of 4-24 people because there is little synergy between me and another player and how our skills interact with each other on a moment by moment basis.

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Duh. That's because spontaneous cooperation is a rather high-level skill. You'll see real professional in all sorts of fields struggle with it at times. And remember, I've been saying that this game caters to casual players among others. And many casual players cannot really give a set time frame for their in-game appearance so statics are not an option.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

The enemy mechanics and environment are the novelty that drives my focus. Once the novelty runs out after doing said content multiple times, my focus goes bye bye.

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This is inherent flaw of games with no defined end. It's avoidable only through randomized content, and that's ill-suited for MMO's in majority of cases.

Your third point is strictly subjective so I'll pass on responding to it.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

If there ever came a point where an FF game is so difficult that I could not experience they story. I think I am done with FF at that point. Because the story, interesting open worlds, horizontal progression, and party synergy is what I enjoy most about this franchise. The latter three have already been stripped from the game. You take away my story and I am a sad panda.

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And this is exactly what my point was. So I'm not sure whether you misunderstood my post, or I misunderstood the intention of your post referring to mine specifically.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

One of the things that I'm seeing being mentioned a lot is that some people think I'm suggesting that raising the difficulty means making dungeons harder. Maybe I should've used a different term and said challenging. Challenging doesn't automatically equate to hard.

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Challenging and hard are synonyms. Similarly "more challenging" and "harder" are synonyms, but "challenging" and "harder" are not.

Difficulty is a word that defines all the way from "win without doing anything" to "impossible". But when you say that you'd want something to be more "difficult" you are basically asking to make more people struggle. That does not in any way define how many people. You make things more difficult going from "do nothing and win" to "push a single button to win", even though the only people hurt are those that are unable to push that button.

The question is whether the difficulty is at the level that the developers intended. And I'd say...that it is rather average. There are both easier and harder things in the game prior. This dungeon does not have true-blue instant-kills as far as I remember (other than that final attack that I don't think anyone ever saw unless they wanted to) and that's the only part in which it is less difficult than say Burn. Most dungeons are easier than even the easiest trials though. So trials are where the developers up the stakes a bit. Not dungeons.

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Originally Posted by linay

That I can actually believe as it's more of a playstyle optimization issue, like tanks who are too lazy to use their cooldowns. I'm more surprised about tanks who say they don't know what their cooldowns are at level 70.

Then again, I must admit to having played BLM from 1 to past level 50 (maybe even reaching 60) without using fire spells in dungeons (because I hated having to manage MP) and never hearing any actual complaint. (I only started using fire spells after overhearing a discussion on BLM rotations between fellow FC members.) But I would think a healer at the very least would complain about a tank who doesn't use cooldowns (even if they can keep them alive without it) somewhere before that tank reaches level 70. So at the very least he would be acquainted with those abilities even if he still chose not to use them.

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Its not really optimization its a matter of doing your job aka. holding hate. Now its not that big of a problem anymore since SE buffed the emnity generation and dps have more tools to reduce their emnity.

Obviously no one played good when they started playing, everyone who says otherwhise is straight up lying, but if you main something for years you should know the basics.

I think it's usually better if MSQ dungeons and trials are a little easier than optional ones.

I'm more concerned that the Four Lords trials were a bit easier, than Gimlet Dark.

It wasn't even the sheer ease that bothered me most. The individual bosses just felt incredibly stale.

I much preferred the Castrum leveling dungeon -- the nearest aesthetic analog I can think of atm -- in terms of fight variety and at least somewhat interesting bosses. GD may honestly be my least favorite dungeon in SB.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

They do. It just doesn't happen to be dungeons. Savages and Ultimates are the hardcore content.

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I do know Savage and Ultimate are meant for the hardcore. What my statement meant was that they could still make content that isn't a cakewalk, yet still easy enough for casual players to participate in and complete. I never said that dungeons should start catering hardcore, nor should they make dungeons exclusively for hardcore players.

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Originally Posted by splinter1545

I do know Savage and Ultimate are meant for the hardcore. What my statement meant was that they could still make content that isn't a cakewalk, yet still easy enough for casual players to participate in and complete. I never said that dungeons should start catering hardcore, nor should they make dungeons exclusively for hardcore players.

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The new 24 man raid is a decent example of something like that, especially the third fight. I wish we got more like that.

Someone please tell my healers this dungeon is supposed to be easy, because they die to every boss mechanic.

Apologies to all who commented in this thread - I had some personal things going on that took up my entire weekend, so I'm trying to catch up on several pages worth of posts right now.

I don't really mind the trash packs of the dungeon. I think the bosses are a little slow, they could stand to be a bit faster to create a bit more challenge. The second boss is pretty boring though, it doesn't really do anything interesting.

Mmmh. Aren't we just getting to a point where the implementation of max level dungeons themselves has done everything it could offer? We don't need the gear they provide. The game has a lot more content to cap tomestones (when you have a use for these). I think that's where the problem lies, really. If they are not to make dungeons a bit more challenging, I'd rather see them spend their resources on different content.

Honestly, if we only got dungeons to level up, I would not see the difference, these were the only ones I ran to level up my jobs. People were angry when they said Stormblood would have less dungeons, but frankly what's the point of max level dungeons outside of expert roulettes?
They could develop better MSQ solo or multiplayer instances, trials linked to the scenario, harder content that would fill the gap between normal and savage... I don't know. Isn't it time to break the cycle?

Oh, they seem firmly entrenched in "the formula" without any indication of interest in modifying it or changing it in any way.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

Oh you wouldn't believe how many people out there main something since ARR but don't know at all how to play it. Had a PLD back in HW where i had to explain that tabbing through the mobs and hitting each and every one of them is a way more effective option to hold hate than spamming flash and focus only one mob with his aggro combo. He felt insulted, called me out for beeing rude and a liar and left the dungeon after i tanked most of his pulls as DPS.

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Yoshi said enmity handling is not only a tanks job, but also DPS that has tools to take it away from himself.
I havent played in HW, but didnt dps had enmity reductions back then?


Btw back to the topic.
I dont like that dungeons are getting easier and less rewarding with each next update. We should have the option to play the dungeons that will be more rewarding and harder, at the raid savage level to bring in more space for gameplay diversity.
Casuals already have X amount of content designed for them, but there are no dungeons for true dungeon lovers which will provide same level of rewards as the savage raids.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Yoshi said enmity handling is not only a tanks job, but also DPS that has tools to take it away from himself.
I havent played in HW, but didnt dps had enmity reductions back then?

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Monk didn't have anything, but ranged could cross class Quelling Strikes from Archer if they leveled it.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Casuals already have X amount of content designed for them, but there are no dungeons for true dungeon lovers which will provide same level of rewards as the savage raids.

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It'd be easy to add harder hitting mobs or more interesting mechanics, but at some point, it all becomes rote gameplay. Just like the savage raids once you have them on farm, the "thrill is gone" so to speak. I think in order to take the next step we'd need some sort of dynamically generated dungeon with random map sets and random mob spawns, or perhaps even random handicaps. Which sounds sorta like PotD or HoH I guess, but I haven't done those because they seem to be separated from the main game (I'm not a fan of the separate progression system and other nuances of these encounters, which seem unnecessary to me).

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Yoshi said enmity handling is not only a tanks job, but also DPS that has tools to take it away from himself.
I havent played in HW, but didnt dps had enmity reductions back then?


Btw back to the topic.
I dont like that dungeons are getting easier and less rewarding with each next update. We should have the option to play the dungeons that will be more rewarding and harder, at the raid savage level to bring in more space for gameplay diversity.
Casuals already have X amount of content designed for them, but there are no dungeons for true dungeon lovers which will provide same level of rewards as the savage raids.

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I'm all for harder dungeon content, but how are they any less rewarding now than in the past?

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Yoshi said enmity handling is not only a tanks job, but also DPS that has tools to take it away from himself.

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I once had a case in Swallow's Compass where I tanked the last boss.

As a BLM... With Diversion up... and not even a fire spell yet.

There's "DPS should be helping" and "How in the crap is this possible given the situation"

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

I don't want content to be more difficult. God stop it.
I want the game to have a proper learning curve, and a proper difficulty curve. I't shouldnt be, that a level 70 dungeon is just as simple as a level 30 one, and it shouldn't be that level 70 players cannot be bothered to play their classes properly (is not like we have a massive customization system, we literally have only ONE way to play, the right one) yet they can progress and alter other's performance.

That said, games are meant to be challenging, if not, there is no point of them, you might aswell play facebook pet games or something, that barely pass as videogames anyway.

Then they shouldn't be doing this content, either they learn, improve, "git gud" or drop it, or dedicate to the plenty of other alternatives and hold the storyline for a while, options there are.
When did gaming became such a cattering to people that cannot be bothered to learn how to play, is basically asking for the game to be whatever.

Might aswell explain why we only get half-assed content all the time, SE has no idea of what to do since it has to pretend to design a game for so many, and is abandoning basic game design principles: Games have rules, you learn them and progress. Not the other way arround.

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At the end of the day, casuals pay the bills. And when it comes to mandatory content, don't forget that Titan Hard mode must be done twice in the story. It's a reasonable difficultly IMO for the most part.

If you want more challenging content, I'll repeat what others have said and say that Extreme Trials, Savage Raids, and maybe even Ultimate is right up your alley.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I've been in parties that have had multiple wipes in Ghimlyt Dark, and one abandoned...

One point to make is that towards the end of an expansion cycle, top gear progression far outpaces minimum gear progression.
This dungeon is what, Minimum ilvl 360 or something? Which means you have to balance it around that for players who have only just reached level 70, while up to date players will be ilvl 380+.

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I actually left a party in the first week because my party members couldn't stay alive in the first boss. Apparently its spinning around and slamming the ground was too much for them..

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Originally Posted by splinter1545

My first group even 3 man'd the 2nd boss after the healer died midway through, and we didn't even struggle.

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The 2nd boss is incredibly easy. Multiple times I've had my healer and both DPS die on me while tanking as PLD and each time I've solo'd it with no trouble. If you have a reliable self-heal and are capable of seeing the big red circle on the wall when he's about to storm through at you, then you almost can't lose to that boss.

I don't think any level cap dng is hard, just annoying.
I mean, what do I get from it? Trash mobs are not rewarding to kill as I'm max level and the EXP goes to waste. Most dngs lock you in an area until you'll killed all the things. The only real reason to run them is to get tomes and gear drops.

So the only thing I get from them is some sense of entertainment by the setting which this givesin better than most.

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Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

At the end of the day, casuals pay the bills. And when it comes to mandatory content, don't forget that Titan Hard mode must be done twice in the story. It's a reasonable difficultly IMO for the most part.

If you want more challenging content, I'll repeat what others have said and say that Extreme Trials, Savage Raids, and maybe even Ultimate is right up your alley.

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The thing is, the game shouldn't be split between the mostly easy dungeons (save for a few exceptions) and the endgame raids. There is a rather big jump between the two with absolutely nothing in the middle. I feel like the devs should not be afraid in making some actual, true midcore dungeons. They've already stated that as far as MSQ goes, Shinryu is going to be the absolute hardest that they were going to make a story trial. Which is fine and all, but that leaves the rest of the dungeons that are fairly easy to do, unless the players in the party are woefully unprepared, or are not able to handle it.

There is room for a middle ground between the two (and that doesn't mean giving more trash mobs - actually, we'd need less trash mobs and more rewarding experiences).

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

The thing is, the game shouldn't be split between the mostly easy dungeons (save for a few exceptions) and the endgame raids. There is a rather big jump between the two with absolutely nothing in the middle. I feel like the devs should not be afraid in making some actual, true midcore dungeons. They've already stated that as far as MSQ goes, Shinryu is going to be the absolute hardest that they were going to make a story trial. Which is fine and all, but that leaves the rest of the dungeons that are fairly easy to do, unless the players in the party are woefully unprepared, or are not able to handle it.

There is room for a middle ground between the two (and that doesn't mean giving more trash mobs - actually, we'd need less trash mobs and more rewarding experiences).

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I remember the time back in 2.1 when Pharos Sirius was the hardest of the level 50 dungeons. Because people we're so bad at it, they ended up doing Wanderer's Palace and Haukke Manor (Hard) more often because they were easier to complete for similar rewards. One's mileage may vary for Copperbell Mines (Hard) and Amdapor Keep pre-nerf.

In the end, the reward has to match the effort the players put in. If there are easier alternatives, expect the players to take those routes and ignore the harder ones.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

The thing is, the game shouldn't be split between the mostly easy dungeons (save for a few exceptions) and the endgame raids. There is a rather big jump between the two with absolutely nothing in the middle. I feel like the devs should not be afraid in making some actual, true midcore dungeons. They've already stated that as far as MSQ goes, Shinryu is going to be the absolute hardest that they were going to make a story trial. Which is fine and all, but that leaves the rest of the dungeons that are fairly easy to do, unless the players in the party are woefully unprepared, or are not able to handle it.

There is room for a middle ground between the two (and that doesn't mean giving more trash mobs - actually, we'd need less trash mobs and more rewarding experiences).

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Trials and alliance raids exist in between expert dungeons and normal raids.

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Originally Posted by linay

Trials and alliance raids exist in between expert dungeons and normal raids.

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A lot of the trials are closer to easy than challenging. Just looking at the SB Trials, the only ones that required me to think and react well were Shinryu and Tsukuyomi. Susano'o and Lakshimi were leveling trials, and while actually more difficult than their EX versions due to forced sync, they're definitely no Titan HM. The rest of them I walked in blind to and didn't even die, didn't wipe, just saw the "don't stand here you dummy" mechanics and did the needful. Vast majority of dungeons were like that too. Mind you I main healer, so when a piece of content actually forces me to participate as a healer, it's always a welcome surprise. It's usually the midcore content that does that best- I need to heal, I need to be situationally aware, but I don't have to stress so much about optimization like Savage/EX demands.

Alliance raids are the only content that really hit the sweet spot IMO. Ever since VA there is at least one boss that will punish inattentiveness and lack of skill without making a comeback hopeless. I wish there was more content on that level of difficulty.

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Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

I remember the time back in 2.1 when Pharos Sirius was the hardest of the level 50 dungeons. Because people we're so bad at it, they ended up doing Wanderer's Palace and Haukke Manor (Hard) more often because they were easier to complete for similar rewards. One's mileage may vary for Copperbell Mines (Hard) and Amdapor Keep pre-nerf.

In the end, the reward has to match the effort the players put in. If there are easier alternatives, expect the players to take those routes and ignore the harder ones.

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Exactly - that's why I'm saying that the dungeons have to be rewarding experiences. We wouldn't know midcore content because the devs have not approached it since, honestly, the Vault. An argument could be made in Stormblood for Bardam's, but really, the main difficulty came in the form of the trash mobs in combination with the ilvl gear up until the second boss. Making harder hitting trash does not equate to a proper difficulty curve, because it's still the exact same thing - gather trash, AoE them down. There are plenty of hard-to-get rewards now that could be offered up in future content to match the difficulty.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

I think it's really neat you play this game with your parents. You couldn't do that with many games, it is why this game is different. I don't know how old you are or they are, but it's really great that you can spend time with them like that.

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Thanks! I'm 37 and my parents are nearly is their late 50's. :) my younger sister plays too! :D

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

Then they shouldn't be doing this content, either they learn, improve, "git gud" or drop it, or dedicate to the plenty of other alternatives and hold the storyline for a while, options there are.
When did gaming became such a cattering to people that cannot be bothered to learn how to play, is basically asking for the game to be whatever.

Might aswell explain why we only get half-assed content all the time, SE has no idea of what to do since it has to pretend to design a game for so many, and is abandoning basic game design principles: Games have rules, you learn them and progress. Not the other way arround.

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I'm sorry but are your dollars somehow better than my parents dollars? Are you really suggesting that they shouldn't get to enjoy the story that they pay for? An MSQ dungeon isn't a place to be seeing how difficult something can be. They shouldn't have to wait to clear something. That isn't a solution or an answer.

Also to say they have plenty of things to do is not the answer or the solution either. I could turn around and say the same thing to you. Do you feel satisfied with your options? I'm judging by your post that you are not satisfied with your options.

The problem here is not the people that need to git gud but rather SE is not creating another mode for their dungeons that are ramped up in difficulty for people like you to enjoy. WoW does this among many other MMO's. Why can't SE?

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I think in order to take the next step we'd need some sort of dynamically generated dungeon with random map sets and random mob spawns, or perhaps even random handicaps. Which sounds exactly like PotD or HoH I guess....

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Fix't.

That's exactly what the further levels of deep dungeons are for, with the lesser floors intended for the average casual player who either wants the certain floors for levelling jobs or just wants the story from it. They even go further by making you have to grind out just so you can get to the full extent of your damage and gear. The only real issue with it is that even after two iterations, deep dungeons are still more or less in a prototype state and I have a hunch that devs are still debating what the purpose of them should truly be.