Blue Mage might actually be a good thing.

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TBH I have no stake in this BLU (rage hahaha) discussion until the system comes out and I can test it I can neither say it's a good idea or a bad one.

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In that, we agree. I had no desire to switch my main to Blu before Fan Fast, and I definitely don't really care about playing it now. The ONLY reason I chimed in here is to push back against the notion that "anything can be endgame." FFXIV is like five years old now (in its current form) and very set in its ways. It's possible that SE could expand the limited job system and someday give it its own form of endgame, but that's a long ways off and not guaranteed to happen.

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So let me ask you this... if you could do o12s with a level 1 character without ever having to do any lead up to it and then level to 70 would you still call it "end" game?

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I'd call that bad game design, ha. Yes, I would call that endgame, but that would be difficult balancing the benefits of doing endgame BEFORE embarking on your character's foundational leveling curve. I'm sure it could be done, but it would be wonky and not make much sense from a lore perspective.

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Originally Posted by Thayos

FFXIV's endgame is very clear and easily defined. As it stands, Blu's place in endgame is highly questionable. I doubt the job will have much long-term appeal if it has no place in endgame.

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Not every appealing thing in a theme park MMORPG have to be related to end game, nor does it has to have a long-term appeal. Actually very few things are like that. That's why they are called "theme park MMORPGs".

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Not every appealing thing in a theme park MMORPG have to be related to end game, nor does it has to have a long-term appeal. Actually very few things are like that. That's why they are called "theme park MMORPGs".

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Right, but I'm assuming the devs are going to burn a lot of resources on Blu and other limited jobs, and I don't want this system going to way of LoV (or pretty much the entire Golden Saucer).

Again, I'm not criticizing Blu or saying it won't be fun. I really don't care. I'm just saying it's not endgame.

You and me, we have no beef. You don't appear to be trying to portray Blu as endgame. You're keeping it real. It's potentially fun side content. That's fine, but I have legit worries about the limited job system's long-term viability if that's all it ever is. This isn't crafting or decorating a house. Most people who enjoy battle content won't want to focus on a job that can't participate in the game's best battle content (which is endgame content).

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

False. Just because you've chosen to "end" your progress in the the game at a certain point does not change where the game actually ends. You're "end game" may only be to complete every entry in the sightseeing log, but that doesn't make the sightseeing log in and of itself "end game". You can't just go changing the definitions of words to fit your argument, well you can, but everyone else has the right to correct your inappropriate usage of the term. "Endgame" is defined as the final stage of game. Currently, this is Alphascape V4.0 (Savage). If you're not there, you're not at endgame.

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Im arguing semantics to be very specific. As I said, most people use End Game in reference to raids, this is not all people. Because some people do not view Raiding as important. Consider an example I put forward: Are Raiders really reaching End game compared to Completionists?

I put that in there specifically because Completionists go FURTHER than Raiders. Their "END GAME" is to get 100% in the achievements. This would also include Raiding, as well as other stuff. Why is their definition of End Game not as accepted? Is it because "End Game" is subjective?

Ding ding ding!

The game inadvertently sets 'end points' in certain content. These end points can be end games. The end game of lvling might be "Get to LvL 70", or "Get all chacters to LvL 70." Some people set up their own "End Games." Make 100 Million. Get a house. Own All the Glamours. Get all the 'x' Mounts.

It varies. This is why Im keen on what were defining. Because one argument is stating that "BLU dont get End Game, therefor it is invalid", where what is specifically being talked about is "BLU wont be able to raid Prog."

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Originally Posted by Thayos

This isn't crafting or decorating a house. Most people who enjoy battle content won't want to focus on a job that can't participate in the game's best battle content (which is endgame content).

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Even this technically is an assumption. We dotn know the lvl 50 content of BLU. It could be the best (and funnest) Battle content. We dont know. Its not yet out. It's all assumptions on how "viable" it is.

Again, youre position is "End Game" is Raid. As I pointed above, why is it that, and not 100% achievement? Why is one valued above the other, when IF you wanted to be objective, completionist has more at stake. Raid just requires participation, completionist requires mastery of all things in the game.

Raids aren't where blu starts to get restricted. don't They get restricted before this, from most duty finder parties at max level? In addition, they are only planning to start rectifying this in 5.x, that can easily become over a year past its release, until it even touches Shadowbringer's dungeons and it still won't be playing current content. the BLU may seem overpowered, but it is going to fight mobs other players have already destroyed on their mains months ago, with no sign it will ever catch up. Why would anyone looking to get in on Shadowbringer do this to themself?

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Again, youre position is "End Game" is Raid. As I pointed above, why is it that, and not 100% achievement?

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Because achievements don't matter. Even having every single achievement doesn't matter. It's all basically a minigame. It's more about completion than endgame, and those things are not the same.

FFXIV's endgame is clear. It is not fishing, collecting vistas, decorating your house (even with the best decorations), or playing in the Golden Saucer.

I'd love for XIV to have a more diversified endgame and not be so limited to eight-man raiding. But a solo-specific job with an exclusive high-level minigame is not an expansion of endgame.

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Originally Posted by Thayos

Right, but I'm assuming the devs are going to burn a lot of resources on Blu and other limited jobs, and I don't want this system going to way of LoV (or pretty much the entire Golden Saucer).

Again, I'm not criticizing Blu or saying it won't be fun. I really don't care. I'm just saying it's not endgame.

You and me, we have no beef. You don't appear to be trying to portray Blu as endgame. You're keeping it real. It's potentially fun side content. That's fine, but I have legit worries about the limited job system's long-term viability if that's all it ever is. This isn't crafting or decorating a house. Most people who enjoy battle content won't want to focus on a job that can't participate in the game's best battle content (which is endgame content).

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That's right, I'm absolutly not saying that BLU mage is end game content, no. That'd be absurd. What people argue about is to say that it's new content, but that's not the definition of "end game content". It's simply "newly released content". End game content is content that you do at the end of the game (ie. what comes after max level and MSQ). That's it. BLU being restricted to players having at least one class 50+ and having finished 2.0 MSQ can hardly be considered end game content. The only way it can be considered end game would be for players playing without any expac.
So yeah, we agree on that one. To some degree.

My comment was to say that having content that doesn't deliver an infinite amount of playability is fine, and that being end game content or not hardly constitutes something relevant. At least to people who don't strictly care about end game content. The Gold Sauced was never end game content, yet it was definitly good content. It also doesn't have an infinite replay value when it comes to its rewards. The only content it has is only the ony the devs make and release for it. (There's quite a lot of things to do, but you get the idea. It's "finite content" for the most part).

Just enjoy the content as much as you can, and that's it. If it does end somewhere, well, too bad, but at least you had a good time with it. That's pretty much what video games are about.

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Originally Posted by Thayos

I'd call that bad game design, ha. Yes, I would call that endgame, but that would be difficult balancing the benefits of doing endgame BEFORE embarking on your character's foundational leveling curve. I'm sure it could be done, but it would be wonky and not make much sense from a lore perspective.

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But I am not asking if it's fun, good design or even satisfying. If there is a start, middle, and end then the end can be defined as the result of the reaching the finish line from your starting point. I mean I get it, in the context of FF14 currently the endgame for leveling your character from level 1 class to level 70 job is to raid o12s and if it was Ultimate #3 then that would be the final endgame. But the end result is this, SE decided to not release Ultimate #3 doesn't mean that o12s isn't endgame just that the goal post was moved. And if a DoL/DoH is also defied as a job that has a start, middle then they also can have an end and thus an endgame. That's why there can be more than one end game and while I agree not everything is endgame and side content does exist, I do think that just raiding isn't it because in the context of FF14, there are several "jobs" that have a start, middle, and end. So yes there are multiple finish lines. Some you reach faster, some require you group up, some require you to group up sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Raids aren't where blu starts to get restricted. don't They get restricted before this, from most duty finder parties at max level?

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According to the LL and slides, they are being released at the max level of 50 so they won't be able to do current content because they are capped at level 50.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

In addition, thsy are only planning to rectify this in 5.x, that can easily become over a year past its release, until it even touches Shadowbringer's dungeons and it still won't be playing current content.

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Because this information hasn't been released, deliberating over it doesn't seem productive. Is it possible that they won't do current content in ShB? Yes. But it is also possible that they will, there is not enough information regarding this for it to be an actual issue. Cautiously in the back of our minds certainly but nothing worth discussing over.

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Originally Posted by Shadowshinra

Thing is, with this logic they should just stop adding new jobs altogether because they wouldn't be all that different and would add more competition, what you're suggesting starts a very slippery slope that I think no one wants us to go down.

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Please do not include me in your opinion.

FFXIV has a very limited combat system; adding more and more jobs means less and less truly differentiating them. We haven't hit the limit yet, but we are approaching it, and already have significant issues with the likes of AST stepping on WHM, and 'pure' jobs that are little more than viable because giving them more DPS would make them OP in smaller group content.

So no, short of them expanding the combat system (which is the opposite of what they have been doing so far), focusing on existing jobs and creating interesting 'limited' jobs, at the expense of 'new' jobs, is not such a bad idea.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I hate this attitude.
I've been playing for well over a year now and I've never been completely up to date with current raids. I've had a blast playing through the entire MSQ, and each and every past raid tier, its been great and I've never felt the need to just rush to the end.
According to this outlook, I've only ever played "minigames". That's just nuts. 90% of this game, or more, is not 'the current raid tier' and loads of people still play it all the time.
Even Eureka is still packed. Content isnt "obsolete" just because its not the latest raid. This IS real content, its not "minigames".

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This, I dunno why everyone thinks things need to be relevant or tied to endgame.

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Originally Posted by Soupa

This, I dunno why everyone thinks things need to be relevant or tied to endgame.

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It is a fighting class, so it does need to be related to improving your character's ability to win fights in some fashion. Where are the hardest fights currently found? In endgame activities, possibly in Deep Dungeon if you are into that. How is the msq progressed, through DOW and DOM classes. a class that is by design hampered from partaking in these activities is going to raise some serious questions on whether it would be worth doing. A raider looking to main Blue Mage has nothing to look foward to. A deep dungeon soloist seeing Blue Mage as the way through role limitations screwing anyone other than red mage has nothing to look foward to. And these limitations are not brought on by the community or a matter of skillsets, but in place by the devs as a function of its design. Blue Mage can be the most amazing thing in the world, but it sounds like Hercule, doomed to never catch up to actual fighters.

People keep pointing out raiding but im sure most would just like to have there first experience with Shadow bringers story with blue.

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Originally Posted by Soupa

This, I dunno why everyone thinks things need to be relevant or tied to endgame.

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Its not just a bout raiding with blue mage but doing relevant content with blue mage, progressing with you friends with you blue mage, main your blue mage like you could main any other job, even a fisher have more relevant content to do than Blue mage and Fisher is far from being the most relevant of the gatherer after he it level max.

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Originally Posted by Optee

So let me ask you this... if you could do o12s with a level 1 character without ever having to do any lead up to it and then level to 70 would you still call it "end" game?

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That's... Not a very good analogy. I'm not sure the game would allow you to take a level 1 character into o12s.. But even if it did, it doesn't change the definition of "end game" as we commonly use the term. It would just be an anomaly, and everyone knows there's no way a lv1 is legitimately beating o12s..

BLU can have it's own "end game", i.e. it's own stopping point, but that shouldn't be confused with the "end game" content of FFXIV. If anything I'm surprised no one has yet to mention normal modes being just as fitting for this definition as savage is.. I can't really disagree with that, but again, having different difficulty levels of "end game" doesn't change it's definition. As an aside, I wouldn't classify UCOB or UWU as "end game" necessarily, mainly since it's based on old end game content, it's really just an optional challenge.

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Originally Posted by Nariel

Its not just a bout raiding with blue mage but doing relevant content with blue mage, progressing with you friends with you blue mage, main your blue mage like you could main any other job, even a fisher have more relevant content to do than Blue mage and Fisher is far from being the most relevant of the gatherer after he it level max.

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Play a different job then, sometimes the content just isent for you.

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Originally Posted by Soupa

Play a different job then, sometimes the content just isent for you.

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Thats exactly where the problem is, nobody will be able to main BLU even if they waited for it for years. I don't personally care about blue wasn't planning to do anything else than level it up for the sake of it, but its just me and my taste, I'm far more curious about dancer and still I'm disapointed that playing blue mage in usefull content is impossible for no valid reason whatsoever.

"Want to main blue mage ? Too bad, main something else cause BLu is a mini-game not a job"

You know what is nice with your mindset ? "Yeah now you have to pay real money to enter Seiryu extreme. Not happy ? Just play another primal. After all sometime some content isn't just for you"

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Originally Posted by Nariel

"Want to main blue mage ? Too bad, main something else cause BLu is a mini-game not a job"

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This minigame is conceptually so much more interesting than another job to level and ignore.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

This minigame is conceptually so much more interesting than another job to level and ignore.

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Dunno, some pleople would probably loved play it in every content the game as to offer far more than only in a mini-game finished in a month or so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Nobody even ask for the mask carnival to not be implented, why not have both ?

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

This minigame is conceptually so much more interesting than another job to level and ignore.

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I don't think anyone has debated about whether or not it's interesting.. But the satisfaction from minigames is fleeting, about the only one that's had staying power in this game so far is Triple Triad. Most of the time it ends up being 99% dead content for people once the rewards have been obtained. They could've let BLU escape this fate, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see how it all turns out.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

This minigame is conceptually so much more interesting than another job to level and ignore.

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....And won't people ignore this minigame once they're through with it? I mean, I'm not sure how that's conceptually much more interesting when what you argue can be done with Blue Mage.

Hell, look at Gold Saucer. If that was so much more conceptually interesting, than don't you think that place would be packed every day with people screaming "I love the Gold Saucer! I'm there everyday!"

Yea, no one says that about minigames at the Gold Saucer, except Yuffie maybe.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

....And won't people ignore this minigame once they're through with it? I mean, I'm not sure how that's conceptually much more interesting when what you argue can be done with Blue Mage.

Hell, look at Gold Saucer. If that was so much more conceptually interesting, than don't you think that place would be packed every day with people screaming "I love the Gold Saucer! I'm there everyday!"

Yea, no one says that about minigames at the Gold Saucer, except Yuffie maybe.

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So true it hurt.

Just look at how many people talk about the new attraction or the new GATE "Air force one", even in the Gold saucer forum no one seems to give a crap about it, so many love for LoV, so many peole racing to be the first to register for the chocobo race but yeah people were so eager to get their blue mage lock in a colisseum.

There are several problems with your argument about why it might not be a good thing. First of all, you bring up old content. Running sastasha with a blue mage would be no more fun than running it with a overpowered lvl 70. And fates, yeah when was the last time you said to yourself you wanted to go grind some fates because it's just riveting.
Next, different builds. No one is going to have different builds. The minuet this comes out people will find out all the skills and make a list, it might take you a day or two but everyone is going to go down the list and get all the skills and then they will figure out which ones are the most effective and everyone will use those. People new to the class will likely just get the best ones and skip others.
Third, saying it might be diadem that works. Diadem didn't work, diadem 2 didn't work, eureka is considered boring to most people and is just something they do because the prize is worth it even if they hate doing it. Lord of verminion never took off. Rival wings is basically dead. The gold saucer is usually pretty empty. All of these things were meant to be side content and none of them were successful. SE has proven they are not good at it.
Lastly, people asked for blue mage but no one asked for some limited job. What happens when you have all the skills and have done the masked carnival and won whatever prize they have set for it, you will set blue mage down and not touch it again because you won't be able to do the current main story, you won't be able to do current dungeons, and you probably can't even run around the current world maps because a lvl 50 is going to die to lvl 70-80 mobs. What are you going to do with this job in three months when you have all skills and the only thing it's good for is fates or old content dungeons you are not going to repeat anyway.

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Originally Posted by Nariel

Dunno, some pleople would probably loved play it in every content the game as to offer far more than only in a mini-game finished in a month or so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Nobody even ask for the mask carnival to not be implented, why not have both ?

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Because, "Is usable in group content" and "the masked carnival is interesting" are diametrically opposed. Don't even start with making two sets of abilities for special circumstances, you know full well that's untenable and is pie in the sky optimism for a job that doesn't deserve that level of attention.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I don't think anyone has debated about whether or not it's interesting.. But the satisfaction from minigames is fleeting, about the only one that's had staying power in this game so far is Triple Triad. Most of the time it ends up being 99% dead content for people once the rewards have been obtained. They could've let BLU escape this fate, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see how it all turns out.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

....And won't people ignore this minigame once they're through with it? I mean, I'm not sure how that's conceptually much more interesting when what you argue can be done with Blue Mage.

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Then they can stop playing it? I don't see the problem. Oh no, some content is completed, what a terrible fate. There are multiple jobs I haven't touched since I finished leveling them, what's one more?

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

Then they can stop playing it? I don't see the problem. Oh no, some content is completed, what a terrible fate. There are multiple jobs I haven't touched since I finished leveling them, what's one more?

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....So, what was the point of your first comment if you're just going to double back down and dismiss it yourself. I mean, you literally just dismissed your own opinion by agreeing with the general majority just now.

Blue Mage isn't conceptually interesting, especially if you just said yourself "well, what's one more thing that I'll finish leveling and then not touch ever again".

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Originally Posted by Nariel

"Yeah now you have to pay real money to enter Seiryu extreme. Not happy ? Just play another primal. After all sometime some content isn't just for you"

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You know whats nice about this statement? Its that I actually agree with it.

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Originally Posted by Soupa

You know whats nice about this statement? Its that I actually agree with it.

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Its because of people like you we can't have nice things anymore.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

....So, what was the point of your first comment if you're just going to double back down and dismiss it yourself. I mean, you literally just dismissed your own opinion by agreeing with the general majority just now.

Blue Mage isn't conceptually interesting, especially if you just said yourself "well, what's one more thing that I'll finish leveling and then not touch ever again".

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No? Interesting is not a concept measured in longevity. Also that isn't what I plan to do with blu, though it might be what happens in the end. If blue absolutely rips in the content it can do then you can bet I will use it in premades all the time given the chance.

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Originally Posted by Nariel

Its because of people like you we can't have nice things anymore.

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If I'm wrong for saying "if you don't like something, don't play it" Then I guess I'm crazy. Video games are supposed to be fun. Have fun torturing yourself I guess lol

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Originally Posted by Soupa

If I'm wrong for saying "if you don't like something, don't play it" Then I guess I'm crazy. Video games are supposed to be fun. Have fun torturing yourself I guess lol

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Yeah, who care about improvement, "love it or quit it" push the gaming industry so far and have resulted in so many succesful title like No man's sky. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

No? Interesting is not a concept measured in longevity. Also that isn't what I plan to do with blu, though it might be what happens in the end. If blue absolutely rips in the content it can do then you can bet I will use it in premades all the time given the chance.

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Actually, one could argue that the term itself could be measured in longevity. If something is interesting, it catches and holds your attention for an unset amount of time, and when you stop....it's no longer interesting to you anymore. So, yes, the concept can be measured in longevity.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Actually, one could argue that the term itself could be measured in longevity. If something is interesting, it catches and holds your attention for an unset amount of time, and when you stop....it's no longer interesting to you anymore. So, yes, the concept can be measured in longevity.

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Oh cool, nothing is interesting since all decays to entropy in the end then. Pro talk.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

Oh cool, nothing is interesting since all decays to entropy in the end then. Pro talk.

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Nice hyperbole and strawman because someone debunks your argument by using the definition of the term "interesting". Good debate skills, pro tier you are.

/s

BLU is capped at lvl 50 right? After you get all the abilities, then what? There's no point using it in the lvl 50 overworld, as our lvl 70s can just kill everything in a few hits. There's no point in bringing it to lvl 50 duties in PF, as people just unsync those. You can't use it for the synced DFs, as its going to be locked out of DF. As soon as you collect all the abilities, there's no reason to touch BLU anymore. That's what I don't like about it.

Atleast when you collect all the pokemon in a game, you can use them for breeding and use them for online battles. What can you use a full ability BLU for? Until it comes out, it seems like we wouldn't really be able to use it for anything.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

Oh cool, nothing is interesting since all decays to entropy in the end then. Pro talk.

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Then its about staying interesting for the longuer time no ?

On the first hand, you have Mask carnival and his comming patchs, who will be fun until you finish it once (kinda doubt about its re-playability but we miss a lot of info on it for now).

And on the other hand, the mask carnival AND the rest of every patch in the future.

The first one will get updated sometime while the other will get updated everytime something is added even if it don't conscern the carnival at all.

Guess wich one will be interessting longuer.

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Originally Posted by Nariel

Yeah, who care about improvement, "love it or quit it" push the gaming industry so far and have resulted in so many succesful title like No man's sky. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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You might want to get a new example then. No Man's Sky is a success now because of feedback from the people that kept playing despite everything. Not because of the ones who quit.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

You might want to get a new example then. No Man's Sky is a success now because of feedback from the people that kept playing despite everything. Not because of the ones who quit.

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It was irony, NMS is now a pretty good game due to feedback and improvement cause some people tried to make it better while those who just "don't like it, don't play it" didn't help at all.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

You might want to get a new example then. No Man's Sky is a success now because of feedback from the people that kept playing despite everything. Not because of the ones who quit.

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When you get beaten to what you were going to say. GG. This^

It’s nice that they’re doing new things with content but locking an entire job it seems a bit unfair, especially for people who really wanted to be a real Blue Mage.

As for this being SE’s answer to better endgame content, what about those of us who don’t particularly care about Blue Mage? Do we just have to suffer through all the same stuff again?

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Nice hyperbole and strawman because someone debunks your argument by using the definition of the term "interesting". Good debate skills, pro tier you are.

/s

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You didn't debunk anything lol. You basically said that things have a finite amount of time where they are interesting. That applies to literally everything. It's a non-argument about an entirely subjective matter to begin with. To get to your overarching point though;

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Originally Posted by Nariel

Then its about staying interesting for the longuer time no ?

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I do not agree, for the same reasons I would rather have a really damn good 4 hour game than a decently good 60 hour one. But let's say that I do accept this concept, just for fun. I will almost assuredly play this iteration of blue more than I would blue as a standard job. Blu as a standard job would work out to about a month of roulettes or less, depending on where they actually started the job at if they were going to go live with it. After which, unless I liked the job enough to main swap, (or it was rdm busted in lower end content in which case I'd occasionally roulette with it) I wouldn't touch it again until the next time I had a level cap to get to.

This current iteration of blu will have content coming out every patch cycle for the forseeable future and will have quite a lot to do at least initially. Assuming the content is enjoyable I will derive more fun, longer from a Limited blu than from blu as a normal job (because none of what makes this limited job interesting to me would work if it were a real full on job). If you are passionate about blu and you planned to main swap, then obviously this is the inverse for you.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

BLU is capped at lvl 50 right? After you get all the abilities, then what? There's no point using it in the lvl 50 overworld, as our lvl 70s can just kill everything in a few hits. There's no point in bringing it to lvl 50 duties in PF, as people just unsync those. You can't use it for the synced DFs, as its going to be locked out of DF. As soon as you collect all the abilities, there's no reason to touch BLU anymore. That's what I don't like about it.

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Masked Carnivale.
Synced runs, maybe even full BLU, to see how impressively the Job can break things.