What jobs are we hoping to see in the next expansion?

My ideas:

Judge- Tank
Uses a gun hammer, Garlean armor and rules cards similiar to Astro.

Soldier- DPS
Wields a gunblade and ceruleam manifestations like regula's tiger.

Magitek Pilot- DPS or Tank
Pilots a prototype suit of magitek armor built by the ironworks. Uses a mammot core, and has ceruleam weapons. It would be physically smaller and more streamlined than a reaper.

Summoner- DPS
Get rid of the egis. Give us a real FF summoner with real FF summons....

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Blue Mage.
Gunblade.

I don't care much for the 'Dancer' idea floating around, popular though it may be. It seems like a recipe for disaster given that a lot of the gear and animations would likely be designed with feminine aesthetics in mind. So far, the developers have also expressed discomfort when it comes to designing gear that shows off the male form so I do not have faith that it would be handled well for those of us who would want DNC gear to be masculine and tastefully suggestive.

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I like the idea of the Dancer, unfortunately I agree with you in that 90% of the aspects/design/animations will be feminine based, which is extremely annoying. I don't have a problem with males that play female characters, but not all of us are into that. It would be nice to see a bit more masculinity in this game.

THe next expansion should include the garlean as a race, and 3 or 4 of their classes. From the hammer nero uses, the gun tonfa that livia uses, the gun blade giaus, and the gunshields that rhitahtyn uses.

It would be acool to have an expansion played from their point of view, but also acceptable to just simply have some runaways join the alliance.

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Originally Posted by WilhelmWhite

I like the idea of the Dancer, unfortunately I agree with you in that 90% of the aspects/design/animations will be feminine based, which is extremely annoying. I don't have a problem with males that play female characters, but not all of us are into that. It would be nice to see a bit more masculinity in this game.

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Ok, that will probably be controversial but...

What do you think is masculine, yet classy ? 'cause we got a huge lot of it already in the game. Whether it's suits or coats or whatever, we have it... Dance is, by essence, delicate and graceful, or passionate and full of energy, and anything in between, but it's not "manly", nor "womanly". It's dance, and I think that some (maybe you won't, that a big some) will complain about it being too feminine either way, simply because you can't be a man if you're not a highlander or a roe or an Au ra. And, even if it has little to no interest regarding future jobs, you brought it here: I think androgynous beauty doesn't get enough love around here... And since androgynous beauty *is* beauty, for japanese people, I think you're going to get most of that...

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Same could be said of BLM? I mean, in XI BLM had every element no? Here it's only got fire, ice, and thunder and Fire burns Ifrit. Every job's been dumbed down. I also disagree: RDM's swordplay is an afterthought to the job's way of play. I would agree with you if it were a melee that used its swordplay as a generator rather than a caster with a melee spender, however.

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To be fair, Fire Ice and Lightning were the original elements the Black Mage got and nothing more. Sure they got Quake but it was an instant death spell way back then. Other elements usually came from other mages. White Mage was the first to get Wind spells iirc, and Earth magic was usually given to Time Mage. Water was eventually given to Vivi in FF9 but before that Summoners got dibs on Water element via Leviathan. Eventually though Black Mage got some Dark element magic though.

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Originally Posted by XovanPrince

THe next expansion should include the garlean as a race, and 3 or 4 of their classes. From the hammer nero uses, the gun tonfa that livia uses, the gun blade giaus, and the gunshields that rhitahtyn uses.

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Pureblood Garlean's whole schtick as a race is that they can't manipulate mana, I.E, can't use magic.

SE is pretty lazy with rendering pureblood Garlean NPCs, usually just slapping the Pearl eye and swapping ears on Elezen and Hyur models, but even if they were added, how would you explain away a sudden influx of a few thousand, extremely proficient in magic, Garlean Purebloods running around?

Although, I do really want a job that uses Magitek or something Garlean related.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Pureblood Garlean's whole schtick as a race is that they can't manipulate mana, I.E, can't use magic.

SE is pretty lazy with rendering pureblood Garlean NPCs, usually just slapping the Pearl eye and swapping ears on Elezen and Hyur models, but even if they were added, how would you explain away a sudden influx of a few thousand, extremely proficient in magic, Garlean Purebloods running around?

Although, I do really want a job that uses Magitek or something Garlean related.

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Could always just make them not able to use magic and give them machine alternatives. And yes i am including baring the classes that conflict. or it could be an escape garland prison colony or soemthing that brought back some trade secrets.

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Originally Posted by SleepyMoony

I really really want Beast Master as a DPS/Tank!! Companion classes are fun and FFXIV has soo many cute/cool monsters I want to make friends with ;w;

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I second this so much, I'd really love that too :) I used to play venomancer in Perfect World and being able to micromanage pets to perform either dps/tanking was a lot of fun.

Edit: Since I read in here Yoshi P doesn't like pet classes... if not beastmaster, then a druid/shaman healer and/or dps type I would love too.

Healing Dancer please! I just feel the music.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

SE is pretty lazy with rendering pureblood Garlean NPCs, usually just slapping the Pearl eye and swapping ears on Elezen and Hyur models, but even if they were added, how would you explain away a sudden influx of a few thousand, extremely proficient in magic, Garlean Purebloods running around?

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The same way I explain the sudden influx of "Nobody Except Padjals allowed!"-White Mages that are running around, "Forbidden Art, please do not touch" Black Mages, Azure Dragoons, "Lost Arts, only for Primal Slayers" Summoners and... yeah. Did I mention we all have the echo as well?

I dunno. If you can live with the special snowflake status player characters in this game have in general, I don't see how adding another notch would have much of an impact. We have access to rarer things than genetically altered test subjects gone rogue.

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Originally Posted by Joe777

Outrage never stopped SE from doing things before lol but we will see.

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True they do want they want, i am moreso also looking at it from the viewpoint that we have enough dps for a few expansions. Healer and Tank should be next followed perhaps hybrid jobs of some sort
And i rarely heal so Dancer as healer would most likely get me into healing rather then always mostly dps like i have always done

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Originally Posted by Maero

True they do want they want, i am moreso also looking at it from the viewpoint that we have enough dps for a few expansions. Healer and Tank should be next followed perhaps hybrid jobs of some sort
And i rarely heal so Dancer as healer would most likely get me into healing rather then always mostly dps like i have always done

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While I am curious what the new jobs will be. I am extremely worried.. Will they copy/paste existing kits onto newer jobs *Astro*.. How will they handle tanks, Will existing abilities be removed from older jobs to make newer jobs feel unique.

A part of me honestly feels like we are only going to get 1 job per expansion from here on out.

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Originally Posted by Maero

True they do want they want, i am moreso also looking at it from the viewpoint that we have enough dps for a few expansions. Healer and Tank should be next followed perhaps hybrid jobs of some sort
And i rarely heal so Dancer as healer would most likely get me into healing rather then always mostly dps like i have always done

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Considering the pattern of job releases I have no doubt whatsoever that we will not get a new Tank and/or Healer. Depending on how many jobs we get will determine which of those 2 isn't added, but if it's the same as HW we will still get another DPS. Only time will tell what we actually get though, and what SE does with it.

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Originally Posted by XovanPrince

Could always just make them not able to use magic and give them machine alternatives. And yes i am including baring the classes that conflict. or it could be an escape garland prison colony or soemthing that brought back some trade secrets.

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no it was said while a fanfest that garlean can't use magic for the reason that it's like poison for them... then don't expect them to use magic from nowhere. that why they did develop magitek, for be able to bypass the trouble of magic.

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Originally Posted by Jxnibbles

While I am curious what the new jobs will be. I am extremely worried.. Will they copy/paste existing kits onto newer jobs *Astro*.. How will they handle tanks, Will existing abilities be removed from older jobs to make newer jobs feel unique.

A part of me honestly feels like we are only going to get 1 job per expansion from here on out.

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they still have room for add new jobs, after all FF series have soo much jobs, plus we haven't seen yet the jobs that is special at FF14, but i'm like you, i think the add of a tank and healer is maybe the most complicate, simply because create a new unique tank and healer will be a true challenge.

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Originally Posted by Joe777

-snip-
I still don't think SE would give us "clone" jobs, but if they do they wouldn't be added as an advancement of an existing job. That would mean every other job would get an advancement too, and that is way too much to do and is like trying to replace every job we have.
-snip-

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You mean like they did with the classes when they made jobs back in 1.0? I realize they were trying to save the game back then and it would be a lot of work but wouldnt that be a hell of an expansion and content boost? nm, you are right, SE wont do it. It would require balancing, resources, and most importantly, effort. lol ;)

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

create a new unique tank and healer will be a true challenge.

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You keep on singing the same tune, while not giving any real argument regarding that. You want a new tank with unique mechanics and a unique personality ?

Sure, let's call it tactician, let's give him a touch of Nym's lore, like "scholars were often dispatched with warriors from Nym to keep them alive, and sometimes, they got a tactician with them to ensure the battle went as it was supposed to", let's say he has roughly the DPS of the current DRK, so the least of the tank, but, he uses a club, or a staff, or whatever blunt. He has a raid wide shield, slightly inferior to that of the warrior (let's say same cooldown, but 8% of max HP as shield, and that's it), but his main advantage is the fact that it's able to boost physical damage, or magical damage, or have a mantra-like ability. Maybe he could have the "en" skill the RDM didn't get, whatever. You want him to have a special resource, like Rage, Blood, and so on ? Fine. He'll have, let's say, flow of battle, and when he gets enough of it, he can double his buffs for 10s, or instead cleanse all debuffs, or whatever.

That's a new tank, and I thougt about it in the time it took me to write about it. It's basically a BRD for tanks. But you could get a BLM/SMN for tank, with no mobility and no party utility that puts DoTs on everyone, a SAM for tank (WAR 4.05, basically.), a NIN for tank (with mudra-like abilities to use different CDs with various effects), a RDM for tanks (basically a rune knight or mystic knight or whatever you guys call it), a MNK for tanks (no combo, but three skills you can chose from each step of the combo)... There are plenty of things to do, and it's much easier to create a new tank than to create a new DPS. I don't know for healers, though, as I don't play any, but don't go around telling random things just because you want another DPS x)

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Originally Posted by ChrisB1985

We need a polymorphic class that turns into demons and uses a flail for a weapon or maybe dual wielding maces lol

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Yes, we need a dual wielding class. Dual wielding clubs or axes would be preferrable.

I'd really like to see the Gambler job added. Setzer was cool and the idea that you have to use cards as weapons was neat.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

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I've come to think of the trinity like silverware. Tank, DPS, Healer are like a Fork Knife and Spoon (link them to whichever you want). you can make variations on the jobs but they always have to preform the same function, the spoon always has to scoop, fork needs to stab, and knife needs to cut. You can make the handle look different, gild it, reshape it, engrave it, lengthen it, you can make the business end different sizes, sharpness, can even change the shape a little but in the end the spoon still scoops, the knife still cuts, and the fork still stabs. Sure you can sorta cut with a fork, scoop with a knife, or cut with a spoon but thats not really the reason you have that utensil. If you really want something different, ask for chopsticks (Support).

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

Sure you can sorta cut with a fork, scoop with a knife, or cut with a spoon but thats not really the reason you have that utensil. If you really want something different, ask for chopsticks (Support).

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Sure, but... what am I supposed to answer, here ? I just don't see why it would be easier to get a variety of DPS than a variety of tanks. I mean, if you want to go that way, why do we have so many DPSs ? Why even add jobs ?

I don't ask for a hybrid job, I ask for tanks that can do, aside from their actual job, something else, like WAR can DPS a bit, and PLD can off-heal a bit... In my example, tactician can support a bit, that's all. That doesn't mean he'd be less of a tank, it's just obvious that a tank job will have CDs, some kind of holmgang, a tank stance, and so on... You know, tank players aren't just meat sacks, they might want to get a bit variety in their gameplay, too x)

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

Why even add jobs ?

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Apropos of nothing but I actually feel like the one person here on the forums who wouldn't mind a moratorium on new jobs if it meant for one expansion they were going back and reworking some old ones that I think horrifically missed their mark in terms of design (AST and SMN, most notably). Like I'm talking, changes so extensive they're basically a new job - especially SMN now that we have less "PS3 limitations" to hold the design team back when it comes to summon designs/sizes (AST cards are "okay", I mostly want them to get a better healing schtick than "can be budget WHM or budget SCH"). But I feel like the forums would lose their nuts over no new shinies to play with, which is weird to me because other games don't introduce new classes every expac and people survive.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

Sure, but... what am I supposed to answer, here ? I just don't see why it would be easier to get a variety of DPS than a variety of tanks. I mean, if you want to go that way, why do we have so many DPSs ? Why even add jobs ?

I don't ask for a hybrid job, I ask for tanks that can do, aside from their actual job, something else, like WAR can DPS a bit, and PLD can off-heal a bit... In my example, tactician can support a bit, that's all. That doesn't mean he'd be less of a tank, it's just obvious that a tank job will have CDs, some kind of holmgang, a tank stance, and so on... You know, tank players aren't just meat sacks, they might want to get a bit variety in their gameplay, too x)

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There was nothing to answer. I was just pointing out the Trinity that this game has locked itself into prevents it from making truly unique feeling jobs. Your second paragraph just pointed out exactly what I was trying to say with my analogy. Back in FFXI jobs were more open ended and that forced the devs to work around what the players figured out. Ninja tank is a great example of this and thats something you will never see in FFXIV because of how they built it. Strip each job down to what the abilities do and you will see its really just reskinned versions of the same thing, sometimes with one or two new methods of getting there thrown in.

Its not a bad thing per se, it just means any uniqueness will be superficial at best. I would love some sort of spec option that would allow for more customization within each job but we wont see that without an overhaul in the games core system. At least thats how I see it, maybe i've just become too cynical...

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

TYour second paragraph just pointed out exactly what I was trying to say with my analogy. Back in FFXI jobs were more open ended and that forced the devs to work around what the players figured out. Ninja tank is a great example of this and thats something you will never see in FFXIV because of how they built it.

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Oh, so that's what you meant ! Well, then, sure, we agree. I didn't understand you at first, but hey, better late than never. Sorry for misunderstanding you, though.

Sure, all jobs are pretty much the same, and, to be fair, I don't really see a real difference between most jobs, apart from sinergies, and, although I agree that it's frustrating that all jobs are the same, under the thin layer of "see ? it's a MNK with mudras !", but that's what we got playing FFXIV, and I think it's... pretty fair, actually. Sure, FFXI always appealed to me, even though I never played it, precisely because of the versatility of its classes, but a more structured system is good as well. Who knows, maybe, in FFXVII, or FFXVIII, or whatever MMO FF, we'll get back to something more fulfilling. In the meantime, some nuances for tank would still be appreciated, though, because "off heal" or "DPS" or "nothing" is kinda boring after 2 years.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

But I feel like the forums would lose their nuts over no new shinies to play with, which is weird to me because other games don't introduce new classes every expac and people survive.

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You're not the only one, to be fair, and, although I really want a new job, simply for "more lore = more possibilities for RPing" reasons, I'd really love them to take a good look at every job, and rebuild some of them from scratch. And, by all means, update the core system of the game, so we can get more customization option and rework on the basis of the game, if they can. Yeah, I'd pretty much be happy with a new extension that pretty much just takes the game from where it's at, and make it better. No new zone, no new job, just revamped the fundamentals of it, so it can actually get cleansed from all the 1.0 stains still left.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

Oh, so that's what you meant ! Well, then, sure, we agree. I didn't understand you at first, but hey, better late than never. Sorry for misunderstanding you, though.

Sure, all jobs are pretty much the same, and, to be fair, I don't really see a real difference between most jobs, apart from sinergies, and, although I agree that it's frustrating that all jobs are the same, under the thin layer of "see ? it's a MNK with mudras !", but that's what we got playing FFXIV, and I think it's... pretty fair, actually. Sure, FFXI always appealed to me, even though I never played it, precisely because of the versatility of its classes, but a more structured system is good as well. Who knows, maybe, in FFXVII, or FFXVIII, or whatever MMO FF, we'll get back to something more fulfilling. In the meantime, some nuances for tank would still be appreciated, though, because "off heal" or "DPS" or "nothing" is kinda boring after 2 years.

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No probs! I may have been a little obtuse about it so its understandable. This formula they have is also why i'm concerned for players who want BLU, PUP, and BST in this game. they will not be the BLU, PUP, and BST you want. BLU skills will be dolled out through a job quest (might involve a specific critter) but that will be the set skill you get, it would be too much of a wild card for the devs to try and control and calculate around taking a skill from an enemy in the wild like it used to be. BST and PUP will be just like the SMN/SCH you get a tanky one, a DPSy one, and a DoTy one then if you are really lucky, 3 expansions later, you might get a new skin for each role...

Chemist
https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.2...HgAAAA&pid=Apihttps://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.B...5wAAAA&pid=Api
The world is already set up to have Chemist / Salve Maker / Medic as a healer. The Mix ability could be pretty intuitive I think.


As for other jobs, I would like to see jobs that use:

• Crossbows
• Great-Hammer & Maces
• Whips & Flails

Reworks on existing jobs that underperform would be nice. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Reworks on existing jobs that underperform would be nice. Thanks.

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I threw you a Like because I generally agree, though as I mentioned in my post I don't think jobs should be reworked just because their numbers aren't where they should be. BRD, BLM, DRG, NIN I think are classes that fulfilled their fantasy pretty well and while BLM could maybe do more damage I don't think it needs a major rework in its current form. Meanwhile SMN, despite being top-tier DPS, has been more a "poison mage" than an actual summoner for years now and while SB is slowly edging some elements of the "big flashy summons that do cool moves" fantasy in it still has to work with the ACN dots-n-Aetherflow base kit, which IMO severely limits what it can do.

That said, I do largely agree that we need less new shinies and more improvements on our existing jobs first.

Expansions are basically a whole new game. An expansion that does nothing but modify the existing content is not possible. That's called an update, and updates come free of charge. They would not spend two or so years working on something that they can't get an ounce of extra money from all at once, especially since MMO's without new content simply die out. It doesn't matter how great the game is. Most players just need new content to stick around.

Or do you want to tell me how do you imaging a party at a trial roulette ifrit with two astrologians, each having different skill sets from each other just cause one bought the expansion and the other did not?! Or do you want them to make that expansion mandatory and lose a big chunk of people for openly lousy business practices?!


Need of working on existing classes is no excuse to not make new content, new jobs included. As for why players in this game push so much for new jobs when other games don't have them as often is simple as well. This games job system is additive, and a new job is an addition to your current character, an extension of what it can do, and not something you need to make a new character for. As such, it is more expected to be regularly updated than in other games where a new class would mean losing all the time invested in what you had built (or spreading future time between the old and new character) or a content that you wouldn't deal with at all.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Expansions are basically a whole new game. An expansion that does nothing but modify the existing content is not possible. That's called an update, and updates come free of charge. They would not spend two or so years working on something that they can't get an ounce of extra money from all at once, especially since MMO's without new content simply die out. It doesn't matter how great the game is. Most players just need new content to stick around.

Or do you want to tell me how do you imaging a party at a trial roulette ifrit with two astrologians, each having different skill sets from each other just cause one bought the expansion and the other did not?! Or do you want them to make that expansion mandatory and lose a big chunk of people for openly lousy business practices?!


Need of working on existing classes is no excuse to not make new content, new jobs included. As for why players in this game push so much for new jobs when other games don't have them as often is simple as well. This games job system is additive, and a new job is an addition to your current character, an extension of what it can do, and not something you need to make a new character for. As such, it is more expected to be regularly updated than in other games where a new class would mean losing all the time invested in what you had built (or spreading future time between the old and new character) or a content that you wouldn't deal with at all.

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? Have you never played expansions in other games? The class is changed at the base level, not just for people who buy the expac, are you trolling? Also, nowhere did anyone say "Also don't add new content", we said "don't add new jobs, work on fixing some old ones". Your reading comprehension is really lacking, tbh. As for your final point, of course it's not necessary to skip new jobs to "fix" old ones, but SE so far hasn't seemed that willing to expend the budget necessary to make major sweeping changes in just patches (outside of the oooooold WAR fix in 2.1), and since new jobs ABSOLUTELY have balance ramifications for older jobs I do believe its better to do major reworks for old jobs without throwing new ones in the mix.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

You're not the only one, to be fair, and, although I really want a new job, simply for "more lore = more possibilities for RPing" reasons, I'd really love them to take a good look at every job, and rebuild some of them from scratch. And, by all means, update the core system of the game, so we can get more customization option and rework on the basis of the game, if they can. Yeah, I'd pretty much be happy with a new extension that pretty much just takes the game from where it's at, and make it better. No new zone, no new job, just revamped the fundamentals of it, so it can actually get cleansed from all the 1.0 stains still left.

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To be fair, trending too much towards "fixing" old stuff also isn't a great sell for an expansion, either. I remember World of Warcraft's Cataclysm, after all. This is why I think the next expac should still offer the traditional upgrades like new zones/stories/maybe a new race, but no new jobs and do a lot of work on making each class feel more unique and less homogeneous.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Expansions are basically a whole new game. An expansion that does nothing but modify the existing content is not possible. That's called an update, and updates come free of charge. They would not spend two or so years working on something that they can't get an ounce of extra money from all at once, especially since MMO's without new content simply die out. It doesn't matter how great the game is. Most players just need new content to stick around.

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So since alot of people like to make comparisons to XI (for good or bad or just neutral), alloow me one: The second expansion to FFXI, Chains of Promathia, added no new jobs. It had plenty of other things, including to what I have read/heard the longest (and possibly best) story and for a time was also one of the most difficult pieces of content to do.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

So since alot of people like to make comparisons to XI (for good or bad or just neutral), alloow me one: The second expansion to FFXI, Chains of Promathia, added no new jobs. It had plenty of other things, including to what I have read/heard the longest (and possibly best) story and for a time was also one of the most difficult pieces of content to do.

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Plenty of WoW expansions also don't add new jobs, and, for better or for worse depending on who you ask, most of their jobs are given pretty big overhauls with every expansion. Love 'em or hate 'em, artifact weapons in WoW were basically several levels' worth of talents/upgrades in 10 levels of content with a well-defined progression tier, and it's not like Legion suffered for content either (they literally added Argus, three pretty massive zones, in a single patch). Yes, Blizz has dolla-dollas to throw around on stuff like this, but it's absolutely possible to just focus on improving what we have in the frame of new content rather than dangling potentially busted shinies in front of us in the hopes that we forget we're getting less dungeons and shorter MSQs every patch cycle.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

? Have you never played expansions in other games? The class is changed at the base level, not just for people who buy the expac, are you trolling? Also, nowhere did anyone say "Also don't add new content", we said "don't add new jobs, work on fixing some old ones". Your reading comprehension is really lacking, tbh.

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Funny that you say that my reading comprehension is lacking, when you clearly can't understand a single basic phrase...

So just for you, a special crash course in reading, starting from the most obvious.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

Yeah, I'd pretty much be happy with a new extension that pretty much just takes the game from where it's at, and make it better. No new zone, no new job, just revamped the fundamentals of it, so it can actually get cleansed from all the 1.0 stains still left.

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Extension was used in place of expansion with 99% certainty. Otherwise it would be kind of pointless to mention it.
And there you have it. Someone that said that they want a new expansion that does not add anything at all, not restricted to just jobs. Yay for reading...

Now, further.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

? Have you never played expansions in other games? The class is changed at the base level, not just for people who buy the expac(...)

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Expansions are basically a whole new game. An expansion that does nothing but modify the existing content is not possible. That's called an update, and updates come free of charge. They would not spend two or so years working on something that they can't get an ounce of extra money from all at once(...)

Or do you want to tell me how do you imaging a party at a trial roulette ifrit with two astrologians, each having different skill sets from each other just cause one bought the expansion and the other did not?! Or do you want them to make that expansion mandatory and lose a big chunk of people for openly lousy business practices?!

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Here is a little bit higher level of reading.

First paragraph explains the difference between an expansion (paid) and update (free), since that is relevant in the discussion (bolded text). It is also saying why a change that does not add anything new cannot be an expansion (italic text).

Second paragraph explains in depth why first paragraph is true. The problem caused by building an expansion solely on changing existing systems (italic text) and the source of that problem (bolded text).

In other words, I know how class changes work. And BECAUSE I know how they work, I could point an error in logic made by another poster, as well as explain to him why he made a mistake there. If you have read anything else out of it...well, learn to read. Ideally before you accuse others of lacking reading comprehension.

On that note, my responses grow or stop being hostile depending on the posts I respond to. If you want to complain, then reread your own post and guess what made me respond in such a manner.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

As for your final point, of course it's not necessary to skip new jobs to "fix" old ones, but SE so far hasn't seemed that willing to expend the budget necessary to make major sweeping changes in just patches(...)

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1) It is not the consumers problem that the business does not care for investing in their product to fix it in a timely manner.
2) It doesnt matter, since if you have limited budget, you spread it out accordingly. Instead of doing lot of smaller things in frequent patches, many of which are mostly irrelevant to most players, they could push slightly actual updates for a bit longer (other than main story and related instances), and so saved time and budget spend on doing the sweep over a longer period. Players will be happier if their jobs won't be changed every other month as well. They won't achieve proper state with lots of band-aids, some of which mess up more than they fix and needing a band-aid of their own. If they won't get fixed anyway, let the players trudge through it for a while longer. The balance is better than it was in heavensward supposedly, so it should be no problem to refocus attention on long-term changes, right?!

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

(...)and since new jobs ABSOLUTELY have balance ramifications for older jobs I do believe its better to do major reworks for old jobs without throwing new ones in the mix.

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I'm sorry, but that's just wrong. Classes are balanced more around the content than other classes. They have a specific aim for what healers need to be able to heal, tank mitigate and DPS deal damage. How they do it doesn't matter at all. Ultimately, math trumps all. That's the whole reason for this darned homogenization they are aiming for with gear and what not, to guarantee that everyone will have the same relative performance.

It does not matter whether black mage deals more burst or more over-time damage than red mage. What matters is that it qualifies for its own set of work and have something extra to compensate for lack of healing/revival utility. You don't need to finish balancing the other classes if you aim to bring them to the same level as what you design the new class around. You just need to set a proper goal and make sure it is met. And contrary. Lack of new class is not enough to make balancing the other jobs easier, since they are irrelevant.

Need proof?! There was no tank and healer in Stormblood, the reason cited "focusing on balancing the tanks and healers". Basically what you said. The result?! There were more job updates in Stormblood than there were in Heavensward in the time I played them. Also, developers claim the tanks and healers are pretty balanced. The percentages from FFLogs, at least at some point, did concur with that (especially for healers). Players still say they are not balanced. And they still keep changing em.

So, how long do you want them to withhold new tank/healer jobs for balancing, while spitting out DPS that by some miraculous way supposedly don't need it?! Perfect balance does not exist...unless every class is exactly the same. So yeah...Now's a good time to add tank and healer since right now the classes can at least do reasonably well regardless of which you choose, provided you know how to play them. Enough so that the jobs lore and play style may be appealing enough to trump over the performance mismatch.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

So since alot of people like to make comparisons to XI (for good or bad or just neutral), alloow me one: The second expansion to FFXI, Chains of Promathia, added no new jobs. It had plenty of other things, including to what I have read/heard the longest (and possibly best) story and for a time was also one of the most difficult pieces of content to do.

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I'm sorry, but I don't see what you were aiming for with that post. I never said that they need to release new jobs or the like. I said that due to the system in FFXIV, players have far greater expectations for doing that than in games without job-switching.

Yes, XI had even more advanced job-based system. But how is that relevant?! They decided not to implement any new jobs. Doesn't change the fact that players probably expected new jobs if previous expansions did bring them. I never played nor read about Final Fantasy XI so I don't know about its history and expansions, nor how many expansions were before or after the one you mentioned. And those matter as well. I don't know how many classes there were, nor how the battle system worked there. I know there were non-tank classes tanking from the posts around, so it was not so limited for fans of a single play style, and that already is a lot different from this game.

A shorter way to put all that, SE reworked the combat system from 1.0 to 2.0, i doubt we will see that level of rework again. Stormblood had a "rework" of jobs but this was mostly a quality of life adjustment to deal with ability bloat (regular MMO maintenance) and some UI additions to make it easier, visually, to understand the nuances of each job. The UI addition didnt actually change any functionality, just made it clearer.

As far as "expansions doing nothing but modifying existing content" I would say thats not entirely true. Astrogalos, Ninja, Eureka, Diadem, PotD, MSQ, among others were added in a patch (free) and I wouldnt consider those just modifying existing content. If you DO consider that modifying existing content, then Stormblood is just a patch since nothing changed, just new zones and more MSQ and two new jobs (all of those have been in patches too). Also of note, all those UI and combat reworks, even though they were a "part" of stormblood they were implemented across all expansions. Just look at the Patch notes to see what is changed for whom.

I'd like to see an XIV take on Templar/Defender as a new tank. Heavy Lance/shield, war cry for AoE threat, something along those lines.

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

As far as "expansions doing nothing but modifying existing content" I would say thats not entirely true. Astrogalos, Ninja, Eureka, Diadem, PotD, MSQ, among others were added in a patch (free) and I wouldnt consider those just modifying existing content.

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Of course they're not modifying existing content...What I said is that expansions cannot be based only on modifying existing content. I never said anything at all about regular updates, other than they are free and thus can be entirely changes to what's currently.

Honestly, how many times must I say the same thing again, just using different words, for people to stop trying to read between the lines when there's nothing there (and thus making stuff up).

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

Also of note, all those UI and combat reworks, even though they were a "part" of stormblood they were implemented across all expansions. Just look at the Patch notes to see what is changed for whom.

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I'm sorry, but I made a large wall of text explaining why you writing what you write is wrong since you did not read carefully enough. Please, just reread the above.

Sorry, i guess I cant even agree with you without getting jumped on.

Hm?! I'm not sure I follow. I don't really see agreeing (or specifically disagreeing, to be fair) with me.

That being said, sorry if it seemed as me "jumping" on you. It was not meant to be that. I just see in your post (rereading it second time) similar things that I do in what loreleidiangelo wrote, and hence my response would be the same. Except for the hostility.

Thing is you two arent too far off each other in regards to this argument.

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loreleidiangelo
To be fair, trending too much towards "fixing" old stuff also isn't a great sell for an expansion, either.

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All they were really saying is it wouldnt be the end of Eorzea if they chose to forgo adding in a new job in favor of a combat rework. Because, realistically, to get actual uniqueness for your jobs, the current homogenization system would need to be reworked from the ground up. There are other aspects to content and an expansion beyond adding a new job. Honestly, as much as I would love a new Tank job, I know it will boil down to being another skin for the role. With the corner that SE painted themselves into trying to make everything fair and even, the opportunity for anything truly unique is squashed before it even comes to be.

I did disagree on the part you had said about expansion (paid) vs patch (free) and pointed out some examples. What really sets the two apart is the amount of content. When a patch releases, it can be fully completed in a week, even casually, but an expansion has enough content to last a month or more (casually).

I was only trying to sum things up without the vitriol but i realize now I should have just kept my nose out of this whole thing. Sorry for making the situation worse.

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

Thing is you two arent too far off each other in regards to this argument.

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Really, the part of my post that escalated like this was directed at the post that ArcaviusGreyashe wrote. I guess I should have just used a quote, but I didn't think it necessary since I didn't think that someone would skip over what he wrote and then think I responded to them. Though then I'd have to look for multiple quotes for the second part, since those were directed at a more general crowd...

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

All they were really saying is it wouldnt be the end of Eorzea if they chose to forgo adding in a new job in favor of a combat rework.

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Well, that's kind of part of a problem. I never really said anything about that. I merely gave a reason as to why players in this game want new jobs so frequently when other games do so rarely, if ever.

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

Because, realistically, to get actual uniqueness for your jobs, the current homogenization system would need to be reworked from the ground up. There are other aspects to content and an expansion beyond adding a new job. Honestly, as much as I would love a new Tank job, I know it will boil down to being another skin for the role.

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Yes, I know. However, DPS have nine jobs with three distinct styles (ranged, melee, caster). Even if they did feel mostly the same (which they don't in my opinion, mind you, even if they do the same thing), a player would still have three times the classes to play with and level and their personal identities, no matter how small or large, would add to the games longevity for that player.
However, as healers or tanks, you have only three classes. In case of healers, they are far too similar to each other at the basic levels (though still Scholar and White Mage have their own quirks...Astrologian just steals em and adds cards, until the stormblood skills). A player that is currently playing have only three classes to try their hands at. And every one that they won't like due to the quirks (small or large, doesn't matter here) is a massive reduction, unlike for DPS.

Even if they were aiming to reduce the similarities and give more identity to the classes, the time it would take would matter little. The change would hit...and what?! The players with those classes at 70 will still have nothing to level, will just need to relearn the old ones. They may be less boring, yes, but there's still a large chunk of content "lost" for the player (or rather, not gained). Now, such a rework actually is equivalent to making a whole new class from scratch, except for the general concept. But everything that really takes time, making the skills, balancing them, needs to be done the same as for new class. And almost the same amount of effort (from a programmers point of view) gives less potential play time.

That is why I believe that they should be working on the identities of the current classes, while making new ones. Ideally in my opinion there would be as many DPS classes as the sum of tanks and healers (so 5 tanks, 5 healers and 10 damage dealers). Not because it may help with the queues or whatever. To give players that like this particular play style a wider selection, just like DPS have.

I do not think it is out of Squares reach (or their budget), and to be frank, there are far more ideas than needed that could be used for making them unique. So that's not a problem. The problem is Square and their unwillingness to see the problem within homogenization of classes (surprisingly...well, not really...this problem is a non-issue for DPS). But that's not something players have any effect on.

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

I did disagree on the part you had said about expansion (paid) vs patch (free) and pointed out some examples. What really sets the two apart is the amount of content. When a patch releases, it can be fully completed in a week, even casually, but an expansion has enough content to last a month or more (casually).

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Well, the expansions are still released as a separate add-on to the game, thus are paid, while the updates are being released for free. The amount of content is another difference, but not the only one. And I just didn't really need to bring it up in this discussion since it served no purpose.

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

I was only trying to sum things up without the vitriol but i realize now I should have just kept my nose out of this whole thing. Sorry for making the situation worse.

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Nah, you didn't make it worse. Well, not as far as I am interested. I'm actually glad to have been able to respond to someone three times and be able to write something entirely different in each of them. Whether we agree or disagree is irrelevant here. And mistakes happen. It's how they are accompanied that puts a shade (or not) on the discussion.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Really, the part of my post that escalated like this was directed at the post that ArcaviusGreyashe wrote. I guess I should have just used a quote, but I didn't think it necessary since I didn't think that someone would skip over what he wrote and then think I responded to them. Though then I'd have to look for multiple quotes for the second part, since those were directed at a more general crowd...

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Yeah, people tend to see what they want to see and can only interpret on the level that they understand. Admittedly I did the same thing and should have broken down my first response and taken the time to articulate properly.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Well, that's kind of part of a problem. I never really said anything about that. I merely gave a reason as to why players in this game want new jobs so frequently when other games do so rarely, if ever.

Yes, I know. However, DPS have nine jobs with three distinct styles (ranged, melee, caster). Even if they did feel mostly the same (which they don't in my opinion, mind you, even if they do the same thing), a player would still have three times the classes to play with and level and their personal identities, no matter how small or large, would add to the games longevity for that player.

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I can see your point and I have argued the same before as well. In FFXI the balancing and jobs were a much different beast mostly because of the sub job system (which I loved and missed from 1.0) that was a great way to have uniqueness. IIRC their fear with 14 is lack of balance and fairness and making sure other players know what they are getting when they see a WHM or WAR in their party instead of wondering if they spec'ed "properly". Unfortunately taking this too far leads to its own host of issues. So adding more jobs helps keep things fresh since we dont have branching specs or real choice within a job for shaking things up.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

However, as healers or tanks, you have only three classes. In case of healers, they are far too similar to each other at the basic levels (though still Scholar and White Mage have their own quirks...Astrologian just steals em and adds cards, until the stormblood skills). A player that is currently playing have only three classes to try their hands at. And every one that they won't like due to the quirks (small or large, doesn't matter here) is a massive reduction, unlike for DPS.

That is why I believe that they should be working on the identities of the current classes, while making new ones. Ideally in my opinion there would be as many DPS classes as the sum of tanks and healers (so 5 tanks, 5 healers and 10 damage dealers). Not because it may help with the queues or whatever. To give players that like this particular play style a wider selection, just like DPS have.

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I think something that would go a long way to helping with that uniqueness of the class would be to have a lot more Job specific gear rather than Role specific gear. Sure its superficial but when all tanks wear the same armor (glamor not withstanding) it really kills the special feeling. I know i was really disappointed when they changes that in the PvP gear. For the first few infusions of gear it was by job, then they got lazy. Like, even the two new jobs only got a single unique piece out of it at all. That really sucked. I mean, the weapon is the only thing that CANT be the same and its by design, otherwise I'm sure that would be Role based too...

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Even if they were aiming to reduce the similarities and give more identity to the classes, the time it would take would matter little. The change would hit...and what?! The players with those classes at 70 will still have nothing to level, will just need to relearn the old ones. They may be less boring, yes, but there's still a large chunk of content "lost" for the player (or rather, not gained). Now, such a rework actually is equivalent to making a whole new class from scratch, except for the general concept. But everything that really takes time, making the skills, balancing them, needs to be done the same as for new class. And almost the same amount of effort (from a programmers point of view) gives less potential play time.

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Thats another great reason SE will never make sweeping changes to their Job system, it would really screw over the community. At least when they did it from 1.0 to 2.0 there were very few people it would affect. I remember lots of complaining of bordom from those people once 2.0 dropped since their levels were capped, they really did have little to work towards. it was mostly just unlock the shit they should have had already, learn it, then enter the cycle of content we have come to expect since.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

I do not think it is out of Squares reach (or their budget), and to be frank, there are far more ideas than needed that could be used for making them unique. So that's not a problem. The problem is Square and their unwillingness to see the problem within homogenization of classes (surprisingly...well, not really...this problem is a non-issue for DPS). But that's not something players have any effect on.

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Its hard to really identify where the "problem" really lies;
- is it western thinking and the japanese base is quite happy?
- is it corporate shareholders strangling the devs to make "safe" content
- is it the initial success going to their head "if it aint broke, dont fix it"
- is it corporate seeing their attempts at shaking things up fail that makes them gun-shy? (Diadem, LoV, 1.0)
- is it a divided fanbase sending mixed messages? (Make hard content!) (This content is too hard, nerf it!)
- is it a combination of these or all of these and more?

I think the best we can hope for getting any uniqueness will be in the sub systems and extra content they release, like Eureka and PvP. Where its a contained portion of the game and something easier to control and monitor. SE likes their control.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Well, the expansions are still released as a separate add-on to the game, thus are paid, while the updates are being released for free. The amount of content is another difference, but not the only one. And I just didn't really need to bring it up in this discussion since it served no purpose.

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Yeah, i think i was really just arguing semantics at that point. I seem to recall Yoshi-P referring to expansions as Seasons in your favorite TV show. So far, I feel each expansion has lived up to the philosophy. I think what I was trying to bring to the table with my comment was, even if SE doesnt like it, they have the ability to add a job in part way through an expansion, or a new zone, or completely new system.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Nah, you didn't make it worse. Well, not as far as I am interested. I'm actually glad to have been able to respond to someone three times and be able to write something entirely different in each of them. Whether we agree or disagree is irrelevant here. And mistakes happen. It's how they are accompanied that puts a shade (or not) on the discussion.

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To be fair, they kinda gave you the vitriol first and that initiated the self defense mechanism. I recognize it cause its happened to me more often than I would care to admit. I try to keep my smartass comments out of a post but somehow something always seems to slip, lol. I suck...