SE, Please consider removing EX trials from the Mentor Roulette.

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Originally Posted by Tsurayu

However, I don't think there is any harm in players choosing to believe the roulette's function is to serve as a method for mentors to help new players given the Mentor system as a whole is designed for that in mind. Besides, the deliberate function of the roulette seems like a tangent to the topic at hand.

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The harm is on people trying to shut down legitimate discussions by going on a moral crusade about things they didn't even bother to read what they were signing in for. The deliberate function of the roulette is one of major points in the topic at hand, once you inform yourself what the roulette is about all the comments saying that this suggestion is bad because "bad mentors don't want to help newbies" are moot and there aren't any other points being made against the removal of ex trials beside those.

You can choose to believe whatever you want, but trying to use it on a discussion is, as you said, trying to pass opinion as fact.

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Originally Posted by TheAngelneer

Mentor roulette was created with the express purpose of filling long queues.

https://i.imgur.com/Fa9jJBF.png
Source: https://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...3d2c4227dfdc2e

People riding the moral high-horse are the ones trying to pass their opinion as fact.

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I'm not trying to get any moral high ground here, I'm just saying I go in with the intent to help regardless of what I get matched into. It forces the mentor status on you when you use it to get matched into duty so yes you are there to be a Mentor, even if it's a pre-made group of vets who have run the instance a thousand times and needed a back-fill because of a D/C. You don't have to be a teacher in every situation. But you should definitely be prepared if the situation calls for it- that's what the status is there for. Don't wear the crown if you don't want to help or participate in what you draw out of that roulette IMO.

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Originally Posted by Hestzhyen

I'm not trying to get any moral high ground here (...) Don't wear the crown if you don't want to help or participate in what you draw out of that roulette IMO.

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This is just outright denial of the evidence in front of you now.

Now, I'm not really to concerned about what it's actually designed for, cause I can't do it, but Yoshi-P himself did say that Mentor Roulette does try to prioritize sprouts and people who haven't cleared a dungeon yet. Here:https://blog.eu.playstation.com/2016...mentor-system/

" a special duty roulette called “Duty Roulette: Mentor” that is only available for mentors will be added. This roulette will grant a priority on matching mentors with new players or players who haven’t beaten the specific dungeon or trial yet."

So you have patchnotes and a quote from Yoshi-P about Mentor Roulette and what it actually does. What does it actually do? YOU DECIDE!!!

It's a mentor roulette for a reason. If you aren't willing or don't wish to do what it throws at you then don't do it in the first place. Extreme Primals definitely have a place in that roulette. Maybe not everyone will enjoy getting an extreme primal, but again, if you aren't prepared don't run it.

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Originally Posted by Spiriel_Basanda

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This interview was conducted before the patch went live and before the official patch notes were released. What Yoshi-P said could have been one of the proposed ideas on how the Mentor Roulette would work, but in the end we didn't get that version of it.

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Originally Posted by TheAngelneer

This is just outright denial of the evidence in front of you now.

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It's my opinion. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I just think Mentors should be held to higher standards than the rest when it comes to skill. Obviously, others don't hold the same ideas but they're not inferior to me in any way. They just play for different reasons than I do. (The only people I hold in derision are the people who shouldn't become mentors because of behavioral or attitude problems that would be unacceptable for any player to have, like berating people, harassment, deliberate trolling, etc.) This is about mentor roulette though- if you don't want to do EX primals, you probably shouldn't do the roulette. Whether the backfill or the newbie matching is being prioritized by the system is irrelevant when people are complaining that EX trials are too hard to pug with randoms and should thus be excluded. I don't want people to feel excluded or tell them to "git gud" so maybe going in with the idea that progress=victory might help ease their tension and curb some expectations. These fights ARE puggable, just not in a single session most of the time. It's like signing up for a prog group in PF, only without the foresight of which fight you're going to get. I've been in groups that have cleared before- it's not impossible.

Truth be told, I very rarely get EX Trails unless I'm queueing in MR as DPS. I suggest people who don't want to get EX primals to queue as healer - the vast majority of the time I do I get placed in Guildhests and dungeons, sometimes Alliance raids. It's not a guarantee but it's worth trying.

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Originally Posted by TheAngelneer

This interview was conducted before the patch went live and before the official patch notes were released. What Yoshi-P said could have been one of the proposed ideas on how the Mentor Roulette would work, but in the end we didn't get that version of it.

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You suggest that 10 days or so before the patch came out, Yoshi-P and co were undecided on how the roulette would work? It's possible, I suppose. Maybe it was what they intended and just couldn't get it in time and you're right, I'm just not sure I'd believe he'd say that's what it does so close to the patch if that's not actually what it does.

In the end perhaps certain Mentors just need to drop any kind of attitude that THEY should get an easy Mentor Roulette. It's there to assist players that may be doing a duty for the first time and would benefit getting help from other more experienced players. Yes that moment when you load up in to an Ex Trial and you wonder how well it's going to go can often make you question why you bothered to queue. But going in to the Roulette expecting something quick and easy is pretty selfish, and should not be treated as your own personal Roulette. Help others like you would of been helped, and even if you do end up leaving or using vote abandon, everyone can say they at least tried to complete it.

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Originally Posted by Tsurayu

I don't think there is any harm in players choosing to believe the roulette's function is to serve as a method for mentors to help new players

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There is. A lot of mentors aren't the epitome of gaming etiquette SE hoped we'd be, but a lot of players, not even new ones, approach us with entitlement that ends up in witch hunts the likes of which are actually pretty common in the forums when the topic arises. Thinking someone owes you something in general, and especially when it's not true in particular, is one of worst mindsets to have, makes things escalate more often than not, and occasionally ends in abuse. You don't deserve your crown, you suck, you should be penalized for an hour... sure no one called me names (most of the time) but that's not exactly nice things either when I haven't broken a single rule as established by SE. But hey, they think they're entitled to my time even when they wipe three times to the same mechanic I already explained, so ya know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Kurando

It's there to assist players that may be doing a duty for the first time

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No it's not.

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But going in to the Roulette expecting something quick and easy is pretty selfish, and should not be treated as your own personal Roulette.

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But that's exactly what you're doing right now, with someone else's roulette to boot...

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

If you aren't willing or don't wish to do what it throws at you then don't do it in the first place.

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Bailing instantly on content you don't care to run is hardly a Mentor roulette exclusive issue though. The first steps of faith in the trials roulette, DD and AV in the leveling roulette, there're certain bits of content a lot of people would rather take the penalty than complete. Mentor roulette having that issue is simply an extension of Mentors being people. Now I'm not saying your premise is flawed by itself, but making it seem like it's a Mentors only problem is.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

snipped.

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For the sake of staying on point I did not mention other players, though they're equally guilty in many cases bailing on a duty. For this reason I'm almost at the point of gearing exclusively just by making my own gear. That being said bailing on duties should warrant more punishment. But hey'ohh

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

For the sake of staying on point I did not mention other players, though they're equally guilty in many cases bailing on a duty. For this reason I'm almost at the point of gearing exclusively just by making my own gear. That being said bailing on duties should warrant more punishment. But hey'ohh

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I wonder if a 2 hour 30 minute penalty would be enough? As well as other things (such as being kicked, etc) also giving a 2.5hr penalty. That way people won't just fake-DC to avoid the penalty. Now yes, I know giving players the power to issue a penalty on others is a hotly-contested topic but the fake-DC/AFK thing would be all too easy to work around a penalty were that not accounted for. Now, were it a mostly premade group that kicked you, that could not issue the penalty (to avoid almost fully premade groups being able to power-trip and lock people out of the queue to get their jollies), but aside from that issue it. 2hr 30min is longest duty length + 30 minutes. Meaning in all cases it's better to just stick it out, but it isn't too harsh. I also wouldn't allow Vote Abandon until say 15 minutes remain on the clock, so you at the very least give it a good bash.

EDIT: By the 2hr 30min penalty I'm referring to ANY duty, not just Mentor Roulette.
EDIT2: Idea. If a group is harassing you and the only way out would be to leave duty, you could reach out to a GM and report it, and if they find harassment is going on, they can safely pull you out of the duty with no penalty. Since the people harassing you would need reporting anyway, it's kind of an extra reason to send in that report as the GM would be able to safely pull you out. (EDIT3: Or maybe not always pull you out, but offer you the choice of you being pulled out, or removing the harassers and letting you find new members to fill the in-progress duty. I would also make it so anyone who bails, except for the last member, gets the penalty, not just the first to bail.)

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Originally Posted by Driavna

Don't you worry. With the MSQ change, the most common dungeons for mentor roulette are going to be those two.

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Hey, I'm cool with that. At least they can be cleared with randomly selected and unprepared players. Unlike some ex trials (there's a reason why they don't go straight in the DF on release).

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Originally Posted by Driavna

Don't you worry. With the MSQ change, the most common dungeons for mentor roulette are going to be those two.

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Honestly, I don't mind that, but you're right.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

Don't you worry. With the MSQ change, the most common dungeons for mentor roulette are going to be those two.

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Sad but true. Nobody will want to stick through that mess of an instance now.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Primarily, the mechanics required in an Extreme Trial can't be simplified into party chat. Because of that, whenever an EX trial pops, a few things happen: A party struggles for an hour or so and maybe completes it. Or, more often than not, someone abandons and then once that first person does (and takes the penalty), everyone else abandons as well.

Result: It does nothing but make people not want to queue for Mentor Roulettes because it can easily devolve into a waste of time.

If a player has reached the point where they are ready for EX Trials, they should be looking up guides on their own, making clear parties in the DF, etc.

While some people like the challenge of old synced content, and minimum ilvl content, there are far more who do not.

And if we're all being honest, EX content has zero bearing on the main story. It's completely optional content.

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I think the most relevant point here is that players reaching EX Trials should be largely looking up guides on their own (or putting them off until they're level 70 and can low-man it, which allows players to ignore the vast majority of the mechanics). I think we can all agree it'd be ridiculous to, for example, put Ultimate into the Mentor roulette. At a certain point, people running the content aren't new players anymore.

With this in mind, I'd say the Mentor roulette should contain only the following content:
(a) Any story-linked instance level 60 or below;
(b) Any leveling instance level 60 or below (NOT the level 50 dungeon or level 60 dungeon lists, but rather side stuff like Halatali, Qarn, or Dzemael);
(c) Guildhests

I'd also be alright with seeing a second Mentor roulette introduced focused on 'mid-tier' content that could contain all remaining content at level 60 or below, such as EX Trials, or the non-leveling-focused dungeons at 50 and 60. There's a good possibility this would draw people away from the traditional Mentor roulette, however, so it might not work out in the end.

It's fine as it is.Doesnt need to be changed.
The bottom line is that the main people who have issues with the other content being there are mainly the ones who want to get a free mount as fast as possible.
If they want it so badly they'll just have to work for it.No amount of lying and claiming that the mentor roulette was just there to fix queue times or making accusations of people white knighting is going to change that.
As for people who want to be mentor for the right reasons and cant do the EX trials well the Novice network is there.You can use that to help others in content you know.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

No amount of lying and claiming that the mentor roulette was just there to fix queue times

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It's not a lie if it was in the patch notes

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

It's fine as it is.Doesnt need to be changed.
The bottom line is that the main people who have issues with the other content being there are mainly the ones who want to get a free mount as fast as possible.
If they want it so badly they'll just have to work for it.No amount of lying and claiming that the mentor roulette was just there to fix queue times or making accusations of people white knighting is going to change that.
As for people who want to be mentor for the right reasons and cant do the EX trials well the Novice network is there.You can use that to help others in content you know.

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There's a difference between needing to be changed (it doesn't) and should be changed (it should).

By its very name, the Mentor network and roulette are there to help, you know, support new players. This support takes on two primary forms: guidance within instances, and numbers for early-game instances themselves. Adding in things like the EX fights does not serve this mission, because the players in them by definition aren't new to FFXIV; moreover, it detracts from a primary goal of the Mentor roulette (numbers for early-game instances). This loss manifests itself in two ways: (1) existing mentors are spread out across more possible instances, and (2) many people who might participate in the Mentor roulette haven't necessarily cleared all of the content for themselves.

I myself fall into the latter category. As a returning player, I saw no value to queuing for, say, Thornmarch Extreme. It doesn't provide content relevant for me. I also haven't cleared Alexander for the same reason. I have cleared all of the storyline-relevant and leveling-relevant dungeons that are the primary focus of the Mentor roulette, and would happily queue for the roulette as part of my normal activities: but I can't. I'm blocked out. That's one fewer person to help out new players in the instances themselves. And clearly, I say this as someone who doesn't give two flying ****s about the mount.

then turn in your crown.

As bad as the Main Scenario dungeons will become in 4.2 with the unskippable cutscenes, I'd rather have Castrum Meridianum or Praetorium because clearing those dungeons would be much easier than clearing an EX primal synced with 7 other random people.

I'll just turn on auto-scroll for cutscenes and/or do some chat with the others in the party and/or discord.

I don't have a problem with people who instantly leave a extreme primal via mentor roullete. That's fine, the party will disband and the same people who queued for it will queue again without penalty. The person who quit, (mentor or not) will sit out and take the 30 minute penalty.

The penalty is more then enough to allow the people who originally wanted to run the primal to find a new set of people willing to stay and teach them.

No one has the right to tell someone what they should do or shouldn't do. And no one has the right to tell someone to "Turn in your crown." That's ignorant and child like.

The people you want to get angry at are the mentors who would DISRUPT the instance by fake AFK, fake d/c (close the client in hopes to get kicked to avoid the penalty) And the ones who purposely wipe the group. All of these actions are against ToS for harassment. Report those players.


But as I said, the people who leave instantly to take the penalty are saying "Hey sorry, but I don't want to mentor this content. I'll take the penalty in hopes you find someone who is willing to help. Goodluck!"

Don't be so ignorant in the future.

If one players leaves the roulette though it gives the window for other players to leave after them.This results in the ex being abandoned and wasting the time of mentors who want to help and the new players who queued the instance in the first place.
The mentor fake dc thing i see the whole time.Party usually kick them.If people had the spare time i'd rather wait it out for that mentor to rejoin and force them to do the duty or take the 30 min punishment to teach them a lesson.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

If one players leaves the roulette though it gives the window for other players to leave after them.This results in the ex being abandoned and wasting the time of mentors who want to help and the new players who queued the instance in the first place.
The mentor fake dc thing i see the whole time.Party usually kick them.If people had the spare time i'd rather wait it out for that mentor to rejoin and force them to do the duty or take the 30 min punishment to teach them a lesson.

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This is why it's more honorable to simple quit out instantly instead of fake d/cing. It's faster to reform then to wait for someone to fill. (Which no one will for that content.)

Even if someone abandon MSQ just because pop in the mentor roulette, you still can do it even with 5 or 6 players. Just will take a bit more.

Unless all healers or tank left of course.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

My biggest problem with Mentor Roulette is that when it comes to EX fights, people just rush in and don't bother to wait for explanations from the mentor. So this is why the success rate of EX primals is extremely low if you see anyone's statistics of mentor roulette, in addition to the fact that people don't listen, and even worse if you're in EU where people don't even speak the language you do...

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9 of 10 runs are like this. zero time to text one word.and/or i just click on english and german for it and end up with 7 other french new player.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

By its very name, the Mentor network and roulette are there to help, you know, support new players.

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No. The network is there to provide the most basic of advice while the roulette is there to fill queues. You're making the mistake of using the name to determine it's purpose instead of looking at the requirements to become a mentor. Instead of 'mentor', think of them as 'seasoned adventurer'.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

This support takes on two primary forms: guidance within instances, and numbers for early-game instances themselves.

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That's what you think or want it to be.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

Adding in things like the EX fights does not serve this mission

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It's mission is to fill queues, so it does exactly that.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

because the players in them by definition aren't new to FFXIV

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Jump potion

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

moreover, it detracts from a primary goal of the Mentor roulette (numbers for early-game instances).

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The primary goal is to fill all instances in the roulette.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

(1) existing mentors are spread out across more possible instances

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You do have a point here, but it's with guildhests. All but the last one that requires 8 people should be removed from the roulette.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

That's one fewer person to help out new players in the instances themselves.

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How? If you want to assist players in low-level instances, you can still queue using the leveling roulette. The mentor roulette doesn't prioritize duties with sprouts or bonuses. If you're unlucky enough, you can (and will) keep getting The Royal City with no bonuses or sprouts stuck on Hashmal. You can get the beard EX as a tank even if you only beat it as a dps a few years ago.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

The whole point in mentor roulette is to help people with these kind of content.
Its not a pick and choose situation for mentors.
Dont like it then dont queue mentor roulette.Problem solved.

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This might come as a massive shock, but "don't like x don't do y" isn't the solution to everything.

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Originally Posted by Kohdo

This might come as a massive shock, but "don't like x don't do y" isn't the solution to everything.

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As it stands right now, this is in fact the best solution since the risk is present and has no signs of being removed. But we can come up with alternatives to make it better in the long-term!

Like, make a "High End Duty" Mentor roulette with bigger rewards for Ex Trials, maybe even Coil/Savage Alex content.

Or add another Mentor status variation - "High End Duty Mentor". If you have this on when you queue for Mentor Roulette, it will be the same as now where you can be put in EX fights. If you don't have it on, you won't be matched to EX fights even if there are open spots waiting to be filled. Naturally this will increase queue times for those who don't use that mentor status but at least they can have peace of mind that they won't be thrown into Titan EX for the 50th time.

The biggest problem here is that there aren't enough people willing to help new players with hard, outdated content. So they throw anyone and everyone at it in the hopes that some people will stick around when they get put into duty. If enough people are willing to say "I will help with the old EX fights", SE might be able to segregate the queues so that people can sign up for what they're willing to help with and no more.

Personally, some of the most fun I've had in Mentor Roulette were the EX runs that started off struggling but came through in the end.

I would rather see the mentor roulette left as-is rather than cater it to the people who are signing up to run any potential duty in the roulette only to run off when it's not something quick and easy.

I would love to see mentors lose the ability to go into mentor roulette if the abandon something queued into through the roulette after X times.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

I would love to see mentors lose the ability to go into mentor roulette if the abandon something queued into through the roulette after X times.

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There would be no more mentors able to queue then. Abandon happens even if the mentor doesn't initiate it.

I'm not meaning the vote abandon, I'm meaning the leaving before clear/time-up/vote. Like consciously selecting leave duty.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

I'm not meaning the vote abandon, I'm meaning the leaving before clear/time-up/vote. Like consciously selecting leave duty.

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Then you'd just get people afking or "DC'ing". People will always go for the easy out.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

I would love to see mentors lose the ability to go into mentor roulette if the abandon something queued into through the roulette after X times.

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Aside from dwindling the amount of mentors out there, which is detrimental to why roulettes as a whole exist (Mentor roulette isn't different, it's just there to move queues along and popping an instance and bailing might be better than not having it pop at all), this is unfair to people with bad luck who have to bail duties several times in a row. And if you keep getting extreme trials with bad groups, as can often be the case, you might have to bail regardless of your best intentions. "Then they shouldn't queue in the first place!" sure, but people can at least read the explanation in chat, and besides, you don't pay their sub and get to tell them what they can and can't do to keep them from queuing.

This is a game, people seriously need to chill with how vindictive they are when it comes to this.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

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Heavy is the crown of a mentor.
If you can't handle it...take the bloody thing off.
Stop whining.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Heavy is the crown of a mentor.
If you can't handle it...take the bloody thing off.
Stop whining.

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Who's whining? You realize the point of a discussion forum is to discuss topics right?

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Who's whining? You realize the point of a discussion forum is to discuss topics right?

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If you have to ask...you're not paying attention.
This is not a discussion..this is you throwing a fit that you can't handle extreme's in a roulette specifically deigned for players to help other players learn the game.
The Mentor Badge is not an license for elitism - its to signify you are prepared to work harder and help other players clear content.

Your "discussion" defeats the whole purpose of this. So as I said...if you don't like it...don't bother wearing the badge. I will not "Discuss" this further. Because the answer is obvious....to most people at least. You don't want to help - don't commit.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

If you have to ask...you're not paying attention.
This is not a discussion..this is you throwing a fit that you can't handle extreme's in a roulette specifically deigned for players to help other players learn the game.
The Mentor Badge is not an license for elitism - its to signify you are prepared to work harder and help other players clear content.

Your "discussion" defeats the whole purpose of this. So as I said...if you don't like it...don't bother wearing the badge. I will not "Discuss" this further. Because the answer is obvious....to most people at least. You don't want to help - don't commit.

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You are right, mentor roulette is to teach people the mechanics of the fight. Not to help players at endgame learn their jobs. and thats what EX fights are. Endgame.

I don't think they need to be removed. Mentor roulette is there to help new players learn and/or complete just about every duty. One day I got Thordan Ex for example...while we didn't get very far (the 2 adds that need to be tanked apart). I and I think one of the tanks at least tried to walk people through it. Thordan's a rough one to learn synced. We wiped at the same spot for the duration of the timer, but people learned a few things. That's what it's all about, and why mentor roulette exists.