It's past time, Yoshi-P...

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Originally Posted by Missbone

I dont think that you are a bad person but to me it seems that you are not able (like many others here) to handle persons well that have their own opinion (witch dosnt fit your own) and stick with it.

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People who hold your opinions on healer DPS have something in common that really bothers me, especially as a healer - a lack of concern for your group. It is not your opinions and how they relate to optimization that bothers me but rather the way they relate to everyone having a fast, fun experience in whatever content they're running. You're letting your opinions negatively impact the experience of other players.

That's my problem with you.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

/laugh

Well, Hyomin has arrived. (/happy) But, where's Tridus and Seabazy? We are in the part of the debate where the thread troll just played the victim card.

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Kacho! *hugs* Happy you're here :D

I'm glad Moro, Bourne, and Hyomin are here...because I am simply too tired to fully explain the issues with that "I'm a healer so I only need to heal attitude" again xD

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Where do you draw the line in where a votekick is justified?

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I never start a votekick because of bad playstyle. If something like you say realy happens the tank gets his mistake realy fast the one or the nother way.

Btw. while i was reading your previous post i couldnt realy understand how it whas possible for you not to run oom when the group plays bad, until i saw that you mention lucid. I used it so far only to reduce my aggro if i had got some adds. I never noticed that it also restores your mana.^^

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Originally Posted by Miste

I'm glad Moro, Bourne, and Hyomin are here...because I am simply too tired to fully explain the issues with that "I'm a healer so I only need to heal attitude" again xD

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And now you don't have to.

Also sometimes I think of copy/pasting posts of yours (in quotes of course) into these discussions since its almost always the same thing anyways.

Thanks for dropping by!

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Originally Posted by Missbone

I never start a votekick because of bad playstyle. If something like you say realy happens the tank gets his mistake realy fast the one or the nother way.

Btw. while i was reading your previous post i couldnt realy understand how it whas possible for you not to run oom when the group plays bad, until i saw that you mention lucid. I used it so far only to reduce my aggro if i had got some adds. I never noticed that it also restores your mana.^^

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They really SHOULD change the Tooltip so that it is more clear as to what it actually does. There's been discussions on this.

BUT now that you know, you will try to throw some DPS now that you know you absolutely cannot run out of MP?

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

People who hold your opinions on healer DPS have something in common that really bothers me, especially as a healer - a lack of concern for your group. It is not your opinions and how they relate to optimization that bothers me but rather the way they relate to everyone having a fast, fun experience in whatever content they're running. You're letting your opinions negatively impact the experience of other players.

That's my problem with you.



Kacho! *hugs* Happy you're here :D

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Hi Moro! :D

/hug

It was inevitable that this thread would morph into a healer dps thread. After all, it's ultimately a debate about how much a healer should heal versus deal damage versus stand there and do nothing.

Now, I believe there is some wiggle room to make healing a touch harder; thus, ensure healers actually heal rather than deal damage. But, it's been pointed out that this may raise the bar too high for a percentage of the healer base. So, I've since pulled up a chair to watch the debate unfold.

It's been interesting and I have enjoyed your and Hyomin's posts very much. I'll jump in when I feel I can contribute more to the discussion. :)

P.S. Hi Miste! /joy

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Originally Posted by Maeka

They really SHOULD change the Tooltip so that it is more clear as to what it actually does. There's been discussions on this.

BUT now that you know, you will try to throw some DPS now that you know you absolutely cannot run out of MP?

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Yeah that was an issue even back when it was called Shroud of Saints and it boggles my mind that they never updated it when it became a Cross-Class skill.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

They really SHOULD change the Tooltip so that it is more clear as to what it actually does. There's been discussions on this.

BUT now that you know, you will try to throw some DPS now that you know you absolutely cannot run out of MP?

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That i cant promise, but i surly will use Lucid more often from now on to prevent mana issues like i had before sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Missbone

That i cant promise, but i surly will use Lucid more often from now on to prevent mana issues like i had before sometimes.

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General rule of thumb is to use it around the 70-80% MP range and just use it on cooldown or as needed. It'll solve pretty much all your issues if you also use Thin Air while Lucid is on cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

They really SHOULD change the Tooltip so that it is more clear as to what it actually does. There's been discussions on this.

BUT now that you know, you will try to throw some DPS now that you know you absolutely cannot run out of MP?

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I agree with this sooooo much. All it says is 'Refresh' if memory serves and as there are no big "mp restored" numbers like Assize you have to wonder why they've left it so vague.

I hope Miss decides to give this a shot now that she has the tools to basically infinite mana.

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Originally Posted by Missbone

That i cant promise, but i surly will use Lucid more often from now on to prevent mana issues like i had before sometimes.

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I'm glad you got something out of this thread.

If you have an alt on Aether (not sure where you live or if that's even possible) I would gladly party with you to help you work on DPSing as a healer if it was something you were interested in.

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Originally Posted by Enla

Yeah that was an issue even back when it was called Shroud of Saints and it boggles my mind that they never updated it when it became a Cross-Class skill.

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Yeah, I remember that... I still do not understand who at SE thinks players use SoS (or now LD) primarily for the enmity reduction. I mean, I can count on one hand the number of times I've pulled hate by healing, lol. Out of every 1,000 times that SoS or LD was used, what, 1-2 times it was for actual enmity reduction (by players who understand what the skill actually does, that is)?

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Originally Posted by Missbone

Btw. while i was reading your previous post i couldnt realy understand how it whas possible for you not to run oom when the group plays bad, until i saw that you mention lucid. I used it so far only to reduce my aggro if i had got some adds. I never noticed that it also restores your mana.^^

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And that's fair enough. But yeah, I use Lucid as more of a mana restore than an aggro dump myself. As a White Mage, you also get Assize at 56 (60 sec cooldown, can be reduced to 48 with lillies). Assize also restores mana. Those combined with Thin Air (spells cost 0 mana for a period of time), and WHM eMP is through the rooof.

EDIT: Best way to see refresh is a "Heal over Time" but for MP instead of health.

EDIT:2

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Also, if she's on Primal (I think that's the 'center that Lamia is in?) or if she wants to watch a (somewhat bad video quality) stream of me healing, I can offer to help too.

Though if I do a video stream, I will warn that I'm a keyboard turner lol.

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She's on Ragnarok, which is Chaos datacentre. So same datacentre as me. If she needs a hand, I'm happy to be her tank and work with her.

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Originally Posted by Enla

General rule of thumb is to use it around the 70-80% MP range and just use it on cooldown or as needed. It'll solve pretty much all your issues if you also use Thin Air while Lucid is on cooldown.

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Everybody has their own methods, my own involve a 50% MP threshold, but that's in 5-mans. Might want to bump that up to 75% if you're doing an 8-man trial and you got people dying to mechanics, lol.

But yes, that's generally what one should do with Lucid. Set a threshold that works.. 50%... 75%...etc. Generally how I do it.



@Missbone:

Start off small. An Aero here, there. Maybe when you get used to that, Aero III a group when the tank first pulls it. When a boss is first pulled, 1-2 Stone IVs and an Aero before the tank takes any damage. Slowly work damage into your methods/thinking. Absolutely nobody is expecting you to go full pro, max-dps right off the bat.

Also, make sure it's a good tank before you do this. Maybe even ask some FC mates to help you get the hang of healer DPS, and ask them to do the "Baby Pulls" that you mentioned against previously in the thread. Baby Pulls would give you plenty of time to get used to switching between enemies and players.

Also, if she's on Primal (I think that's the 'center that Lamia is in?) or if she wants to watch a (somewhat bad video quality) stream of me healing, I can offer to help too.

Though if I do a video stream, I will warn that I'm a keyboard turner lol.

EDIT: Been meaning to do a recording of me healing anyways as keyboard turning has come up in discussions before and some peeps don't seem to understand how I can do it and not get hit with AoEs and junk.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

/laugh

Well, Hyomin has arrived. (/happy) But, where's Tridus and Seabazy? We are in the part of the debate where the thread troll just played the victim card.

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Speaking of the victim card, I was helping a friend move. I mean, they bought dinner afterward, but carrying a sofa down from the fourth floor is... probably still more fun than another one of these threads, actually. :)

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Originally Posted by Maeka

I really, REALLY hate the forum system. 1000 characters is just asinine.

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That limit doesn't apply when editing. If you want to post long, just cut and paste your entire post into the edit box. :)

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Speaking of the victim card, I was helping a friend move. I mean, they bought dinner afterward, but carrying a sofa down from the fourth floor is... :)

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Tridus! /hug

OUCH! Hopefully, your muscles don't protest too much tomorrow. It's great your friend bought you dinner and all but still... ouch!

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probably still more fun than another one of these threads, actually. :)

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*snerk* :D

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Yeah, I remember that... I still do not understand who at SE thinks players use SoS (or now LD) primarily for the enmity reduction. I mean, I can count on one hand the number of times I've pulled hate by healing, lol. Out of every 1,000 times that SoS or LD was used, what, 1-2 times it was for actual enmity reduction (by players who understand what the skill actually does, that is)?

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I honestly think Lucid should have a rework with regards to the enmity dump part of the skill. I feel the same way about BRD/MCH Refresh/Tactician. Skills that are used primarily for support/self-sufficiency also functioning as enmity dumps can be... tricky sometimes. The number of times I have used Tactician to dump my own aggro and then subsequently a melee died and could have used the TP is numerous. Same thing with Refresh—there’s so many ways to use that skill, one of which is offensively for the sake of Foe’s and extending it’s duration/allowing for more casts during a given fight, but unless your healers are on top of their own mana and Lucid usage, it’s tricky to use Refresh in such a way.

I honestly think that all jobs should have access to Diversion, and it function as both an enmity dump AND an enmity queller but, sigh. Such is not the case. :c Or at least give WHM another ability to use as an enmity dump instead of relying purely on Lucid or a NIN, since they have the strongest heals and are usually the ones ripping aggro through healing (sometimes ASTs do, but I rarely see that; I almost never see a SCH threatening to rip hate through healing).

Having a NIN helps, because they can Smokescreen a healer about to rip hate, but you can’t always rely on having a NIN in DF/PUG groups. Alas.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

If you have an alt on Aether (not sure where you live or if that's even possible) I would gladly party with you to help you work on DPSing as a healer if it was something you were interested in.

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My Charakter is on Ragnarok (EU Datacenter) and im also one of those players who allways thought refresh is just something like a minor hot.^^
I was told you could add players from other servers to your friendlist and invite them into a group but i dont know excatly how this work because i didnt used it so far.

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Originally Posted by Missbone

My Charakter is on Ragnarok (EU Datacenter) and im also one of those players who allways thought refresh is just something like a minor hot.^^ I was told you could add players from other servers to your friendlist and invite them into a group but i dont know excatly how this work because i didnt used it so far.

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What you can do is create a PF (Party Finder). I'll keep my eyes peeled for one. Once created, I'll be able to search for it and join in. Then from there I'll be listed in your contacts tab. From there, you can add me as a friend since I will show up. I'll keep tabs on the PF while fishing if ya wanna do it now! That way you've got me locked in for future use if you need help. Also, don't worry about not understanding Refresh, as others have eluded to, it isn't exactly the best worded thing! XD

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Originally Posted by Missbone

My Charakter is on Ragnarok (EU Datacenter) and im also one of those players who allways thought refresh is just something like a minor hot.^^ I was told you could add players from other servers to your friendlist and invite them into a group but i dont know excatly how this work because i didnt used it so far.

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Mmh. I see. Well I'll still do a video, maybe you'll learn from it, maybe not.

As I said previously I was planning on doing that anyways. I just need to find a moment when I'm not doing something already, and nobody else is using the internet.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

And people think it's the raiders who are toxic...

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Funny thing about that.. the ones in statics run with their statics or FC normally. They're not the ones pushing for DPS. So they're not the ones causing the problems the OP is bringing up, even though many in the thread say raiders are elitists lol.

I feel like 90% of the problems people like the OP have with dungeons could be solved by grouping with friends. Out of the last 100 or so dungeons I've ran (and this goes back as far as HW), I think I've had one bad apple in a group. Now take that chance and half it by grouping with a friend. Quarter it if running with 2 friends. And eliminate it with 3.

For trials and alliance raids, no one hardly talks and they're over before anyone can even read the logs. So they don't matter.

I made a suggestion in another thread, the one about 'what if the other DPS is low?' About how healers and tanks should run with a DPS on their server, even if they don't know them. It helps keep them from getting 2x apathetic DPS and quickens the run. Reason being is the person you're running with is more apt to do their role with effort since they've had some dialogue with a person they are grouped with.

This could work here. Group with -Someone-. It could be a random person on your server. Just say "I'm a Tank, I want to group with someone for x Roulette". You will get so many responses it will be ridiculous. And those players will likely not use parses or nasty remarks with you.

So there ya go OP, I've given you an EASY solution to your issue. Devs will be slow to react if they react at all to your plea at all. But my solution will help you NOW.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

-snip-

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I dunno how it is on other Datacenters, but on Primal.... I have never gotten yelled at or kicked and I'm a bit of a lazy healer who only does some DPS and is nowhere near Raiding Quality. I can do duty finder junk like Omega, sure... but I'm not really the person to ask to go higher, lol.

But yet I still have my golden magitek armor, and I'm well on my way towards the next mount. Almost always get 1 commendation, quite often get 2 and a decent amount of 3s in my random experts.

No friends needed.

OP is either exaggerating, or he's on a datacenter full of nasty players, or he just sucks at his job and they're yelling at him for some other reason.

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Originally Posted by Missbone

I was told you could add players from other servers to your friendlist and invite them into a group but i dont know excatly how this work because i didnt used it so far.

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You can do that but sadly only from your own Datacenter. Take Aether for instance - it hold lots of separate worlds like Zalera, Balmung, Sarganatus, etc. and as a resident of Zalera I can play with any other people from a world hosted on Aether.


Since you're on the EU datacenter (Chaos I think?) we can't play together without one of us making an alt on the other's datacenter, that's why I made mention of you possibly having an alt on my datacenter.

Paladinleeds is on your Datacenter though and from everything I've seem from him he's quite the able player and I'm sure he'd be able to help you get started with this stuff.

If you've got a discord feel free to add me(moromurasaki#5719), that way if I ever make an EU alt (which I am looking into) I could run something with you :)

Happy you're being more open to things! :D

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Originally Posted by Maeka

I dunno how it is on other Datacenters, but on Primal.... I have never gotten yelled at or kicked and I'm a bit of a lazy healer who only does some DPS and is nowhere near Raiding Quality.

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I've only had one issue and that was in 3.3 with a DPS complaining about dying while standing in AOEs. They were kicked from the group when they wouldn't stop harassing me. Issue solved itself.

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OP is either exaggerating, or he's on a datacenter full of nasty players, or he just sucks at his job and they're yelling at him for some other reason.

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More like the former rather than the latter. There's little difference between servers and datacenters. The number playing this game is too high for segmented populations to have significant differences. They're more likely jumping on a forum bandwagon after perceiving the experience once.

Its kinda like being in a trial that requires a bit of a DPS check and if you say, "hey lets pick it up a bit" and 1 or 2 make nasty remarks like "you don't pay my sub" or "I'm reporting you for using addons!" And the only parsing you've done is watching a HP bar and using intuition to notice how long the fight has gone on. Yet those players will go to the forums about how they were abused.

Suggesting to a group to not wipe is considered abusive and reportable offenses to many.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

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This is exactly why I've changed my tune to that one of a more supportive tune. I think now she's getting a better handle of things that the collective "we" have pointed out, she's shown she's happy to learn and improve. As a result, I'm happy to dedicate time to trying to help her. I'm alright, nowhere near the best (indeed, my logs show I'm one of the worst, at least on ex primals, I seem to fare better elsewhere though), but I do try and help people improve.

She's shown a willingness to learn, and I'm willig to help her grasp the basicsand hit the ground running. Once she's hit the ground running though, it's down to her to push herself even further.

Also, as an aside, your spelling of "datacentre" makes me grit my teeth. Why do the Americans spell things so darn different to us Brits and other English speaking countries? D:

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Originally Posted by Missbone

Thx for the offer but i think i will do this later. :)
Im real tired and will go off soon for today.

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That's fine, we can tackle this another day. Truth be told, I should be looking into sleeping anyway, it is almost midnight here (sleeping pattern? What do you think this is? Real life?). But hey ho, when I set my sights on something, I'll go all out.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

What you can do is create a PF (Party Finder).

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Thx for the offer but i think i will do this later. :)
Im real tired and will go off soon for today.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Mmh. I see. Well I'll still do a video, maybe you'll learn from it, maybe not.

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Well you dont need to do this extra for me, but if you want to do it anyways you can send me the link if you want.

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Originally Posted by Missbone

Well you dont need to do this extra for me, but if you want to do it anyways you can send me the link if you want.

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*nods* I've had questions about my playstyle and such and I've been wanting to do it so why not kill two birds with one stone... tho my luck I'll get a bad group or something lol. Or I'll slip on a banana peel because I know that everything I do will be seen if I post it and I'll probably screw up or something and look like an idiot. lol.

Ah well we'll see how it goes.

Ah, a strategy I can identify with. I, too, go into the official guild wars 2 forums and demand that they adopt a strict trinity class system across all content.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

Ah, a strategy I can identify with. I, too, go into the official guild wars 2 forums and demand that they adopt a strict trinity class system across all content.

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lol.

Why not make every single MMORPG exactly the same, then everybody can be a strict wow-clone, lol.

(/sarcasm, of course)

I don't get what goes through these peoples' minds, I mean, these kinda quirks are what separates games and gives you a reason to choose one over another. If the OP doesn't like how tanking&healing in XIV work, he's more than free to jaunt over on to Battle.net for example.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

I think I made it pretty clear that I understand that the flaw is caused by the design of the game. You do not need to "explain" that to me. I was pointing out that it isn't unreasonable for people familiar with other MMOs to come to this one thinking that healers... heal. Because that is what they do in other MMOs. You said it was "completely absurd" for players to have some expectation like this, and I pointed out why it is not.

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This is entirely true, and it's the root of a lot of this. When I came over here from WoW and flipped to healer from BLM... I healed. In fact, I got annoyed at all these CNJ quests demanding I kill stuff because if I wanted to do that I'd be playing BLM (which is far, far better at it). Back when I was playing WoW, the endgame healing design was "you heal", especially if you were a MT healer. It was entirely possible for a tank to go from full to dead in three seconds from standard damage in a lot of fights and you simply had to have heals going out reliably.

It didn't click right away that the game design here is very much not that. That's the expectation a lot of players have when they come in. You see it all the time from new players, and other job players that start healing for the first time. I'd never kick someone for it outside of Ex or Savage because content below that often has people who are still learning, and that's not the way I prefer to handle someone who isn't actively being malicious. They're playing suboptimally, sure. But so was I, and people were nicer to me about it.

If you want to ask if the game should be that way, it's a complex issue that comes down to opinion on what you want the healing role to be. Changing it to be a pure healing focus would draw some people who don't like the DPS focused style, but would also chase off a lot of the healers we have now that do like it. It'd require major changes to how healing skills, incoming damage, encounter design, and even character stats are being done. Healing would be largely unrecognizable from what we have today if you did it.

For the game we have now? Look... the fundamental rule in any group is that everyone should be expected to do their best to help the group succeed. That means you use your kit to the best of your ability. Since each of us has different skill levels, that doesn't mean you need to have 99% uptime while doing a minimum of 2000 DPS as a healer. It does mean you have to try to help, and tossing up DoTs is more helpful than standing around doing nothing. Standing around doing nothing for 20 seconds (entirely doable on O2N as a healer after putting Regen up on the MT) can't in any way be construed as you helping the group. The examples from the other roles are me deciding to tank while doing zero DPS(*), which as a Paladin is entirely doable thanks to the miracle of flash spam. I'll just hit that button a bunch, then stand around doing nothing. The mobs are hitting me so I've done my role requirement, right? The main difference between the tanks and the healers is that absolutely no tank will defend that as acceptable.

*I don't actually do that. I do use Clemency a lot though, which according to some posters here is outside my job description as a tank. Maybe it is, but I prefer to not wipe, and Clemency is pretty helpful in that department.

@Tridus: Clemency rocks.

I pop that quite often myself. I do all of my standard tanking stuff, but I also keep Clemency and the F-keys at the ready. I've saved healers' lives when they ate AoEs, and I've allowed the healer to put in extra DPS by throwing one on myself now and then.

I'm far from the perfect tank, but I enjoy helping out the other group members. I need to find a way to get Cover easier to reach in a pinch, but until then, there's Clemency. I love that spell; it is so awesome.

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Originally Posted by Enla

They'd have to pry Holy from my cold-dead fingers if they ever forcibly shifted the meta towards a more 'pure' healing playstyle.

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Having healers spend the majority of their time healing in group content doesn't mean eliminating dps spells. Healer jobs need to be able to solo out in the open world, too, after all.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

If you've got a discord feel free to add me(moromurasaki#5719), that way if I ever make an EU alt (which I am looking into) I could run something with you :)

Happy you're being more open to things! :D

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I dont think i will ever make an alt in this game, it simply takes to mutch time and is not realy necessary. Im now about near 110 days played at just this one char and have still so mutch to do.^^

But if you dont mind i can add you on discord anyway, even if im still not used to using it regulary. But if you ever feel like creating a twink on Ragnarok or somewhere else on Chaos you can add me. ;)

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Originally Posted by Maeka

lol.

Why not make every single MMORPG exactly the same, then everybody can be a strict wow-clone, lol.

(/sarcasm, of course)

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I dont realy want to say this.^^ But what you mean as a joke is in reality in more mmos the chase than you maybe think. Like i mentioned earlier i tried in the past a lot of mmos and a lot of them (most of them are f2p) use a lot of stuff that you can find in wow, also wow copied a lot of things from other mmos or mods (yes the raidwindows in wow today where at the beginning an community addon that whas released in wow classic to allow players (healers in first place) to manage the big 40 people raids. Later (i think sometime during BC) wow used this idea and put their own raidwindows into the game, after that it became an standart feature for mmos) in the past. The thing that you allways will mention first is the interface, a lot of games use the same Interface like wow. Also you can see often that targeting and questmanagement works the same way like in wow or the skill trees and there is a lot more.

If you, for example, take a look at Warhammer Online, Everquest 2, Swtor, Lotro, even Star Trek Online (of course they are more) they all have a lot stuff with WoW in common because people like the way things work and expect this from a good game (if it allways make sense is another thing^^). Sure things looks a bit different here and there to give the games their own toutch, but when you reduce it to the basics its the same.

I personaly think its not bad to copy something popular from another game and use it for you own. The thing is how good is your variaition of the same idea is and how well it works in your game.

I agree with you, OP. And it's up to the developers to make the necessary adjustments. Their content does not require full-time healing or tanking abilities. So those roles are forced to use their dps abilities to stay active. They need to make healing and tanking more necessary. They need to randomize fights more instead of having so much scripted damage. They may consider disabling dps abilities for non-dps roles in group content, but they could replace them with more support abilities like haste, damage shields, or crowd control abilities.

Now, if the development team isn't willing to take these measures, then the dps meta will stay and those who don't like being half dps in a non-dps role will need to find other games that have more strongly-defined party roles.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Now, if the development team isn't willing to take these measures, then the dps meta will stay and those who don't like being half dps in a non-dps role will need to find other games that have more strongly-defined party roles.

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But I think that is at least part of the reason combat in this game exists in it's current iteration - there are lots of games out there that play up the holy trinity to the point that tank and healer DPS are not really a concern for whatever reason. This game takes a different approach.


I mean honestly the idea of such a huge overhaul of the game is pretty much off the table. To do this they would have to scale every encounter in the game to meet new mitigation/healing/DPS thresholds and I just can't see the devs putting that time and effort into old content. Even if, against overwhelming odds, SE wanted to enforce 'pure' tanks and healers the effective cost is prohibitive enough on it's own to stop them... not to mention the subs they would certainly lose.

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Originally Posted by Missbone

I dont think i will ever make an alt in this game, it simply takes to mutch time and is not realy necessary. Im now about near 110 days played at just this one char and have still so mutch to do.^^

But if you dont mind i can add you on discord anyway, even if im still not used to using it regulary. But if you ever feel like creating a twink on Ragnarok or somewhere else on Chaos you can add me. ;)

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Alrighty. You can either add me (moromurasaki#5719) or post yours here and I'lk add you :)

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Originally Posted by Missbone

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Hi, mog delivery service! From Maeka to you.
Hey, is that a cross-thread?

> http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...omised-someone.....

Wait... What kind of meta could even be approached in a PvE MMORPG other than a DPS heavy meta? The goal of every fight (except 2nd boss bardam) is to get the boss' HP to 0. Only way to do so is damage.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

It didn't click right away that the game design here is very much not that. That's the expectation a lot of players have when they come in. You see it all the time from new players, and other job players that start healing for the first time. I'd never kick someone for it outside of Ex or Savage because content below that often has people who are still learning, and that's not the way I prefer to handle someone who isn't actively being malicious. They're playing suboptimally, sure. But so was I, and people were nicer to me about it.

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Just to make it clear: nobody is arguing about how new players don't play optimally.
What is argued revolves around experienced players who made the deliberate choice not to play how the game was designed, even after having the full knowledge of what should and shouldn't be done. It's also about these players not caring about trying to have a balanced team effort no matter what, simply because of their beliefs. We are talking about selfish individuals who make their own comfort as their number one priority, often at the expense of others.

And since you said "this is entirely true, and it's the root of a lot of this" to someone who thinks that the way FFXIV healers are desined is a "flaw", I am obligated to say it again: no, it's not a flaw. The flaw is inside these people's brain, who refuse to think that a game's take on that aspect might be different than the very few other games they have played. They are simply inept to adapt, and that's the problem. Not the game.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

But I think that is at least part of the reason combat in this game exists in it's current iteration - there are lots of games out there that play up the holy trinity to the point that tank and healer DPS are not really a concern for whatever reason. This game takes a different approach.

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It didn't always. Things were different when it was just ARR. SE has slowly made healing and tanking less necessary. They can continue it or if they really don't intend for the game to be like this, they can make adjustments.