Is Fordola the monster Lyse says she is?

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Would Fordola know that the Alliance/Resistance do not actually torture/execute any prisoners-of-war they get? I mean, the people of Ala Ghiri didn't, hence the whole mess with Baut.

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Probably not, she would more than likely assume they do because her own side does it?

The Baut stuff was propaganda to scare regular people. Is she high enough in the chain to know what does or doesn't happen? They can't have actual evidence that the Alliance/Resistance tortures anyone.

It would not be a simple decision for sure, but it shouldn't be easier to fire on her own troops.

Ultimately if this is her defense, that common Isari villager was more willing to put himself in harm's way than she was.

You need to be brave to stand up to a tyrant. If she isn't than so be it but she certainly comes across as someone that's supposed to be willing to do whatever it takes.

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Criminals are sentenced to jail, not just to punish them, but also to reform them. The two objectives go hand in hand.

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This is most certainly not always the case. Depending on the circumstance, prisons are a way to separate a wrongdoer (or, in some corrupt cases, someone inconvenient to those in power) from society, without any intention of rehabilitation. Heck, even in the modern United States there are cases of life sentencing where it is clear that in individual is meant to rot in prison until they die.

On the other hand, given Yotsuyu's treatment of the Domans, lifetime imprisonment might BE a mercy compared to what those she ruled might actually desire for her. While we do not have an explicit laundry list of her crimes, we were told in-game that the cruelty we witness at Isara was small potatoes compared to her actions elsewhere. Breaking the cycle of hate in this case might have nothing to do with providing Yotsuyu with the means to redeem herself (an opportunity that would likely be wasted anyway), and everything to do with NOT punishing her to the degree the Doman people would like.

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The most important parting point that Lyse reflected on, in the concluding moments of Stormblood, is that monsters like Zenos and Fordola are made, not born. It was not just an observation of fact, but also a warning to all who follow, that good people can become monsters if they're forced by circumstances.

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Fordola as a victim of circumstance, I can buy - but Zenos? What circumstance forced him to become a monster? As near as we can tell, as high-ranking Garlean nobility the guy had pretty much any avenue open to him, but he chose the path of a monster, and did so out of boredom. I guess one could argue that he was "forced" by way of genetics and temperament - but if those are excuses, are any of us culpable for anything we do?

Zenos was deliberately written to be horrific in an attempt to avoid having people sympathise with him. Given that he abused his own people as often as his enemies I cannot say I sympathise with him in any way and I'm probably one of the biggest Garlean enthusiasts around. I did enjoy him as a character though for that to continue to be the case that is largely dependent on whether or not the protagonists acknowledge that Zenos wasn't advancing Garlemald's cause in any meaningful way and was, in fact, detrimental to it whilst openly denouncing his loyalties to Garlemald shortly before his defeat.

Aside from his father stating that he was a monster we also know that the Emperor did not look upon Aulus kindly, either. That's the man responsible for Zenos' enhancements - so the angle of Zenos being forced to endure experimentation is unlikely as all signs point to him embracing such things willingly.

I think Yotsuyu's "redemption" will be more of hermit-like isolation if anything. It'll involve Gosetsu in some way, with his solid, reliable, father-like approach giving her the stability - and evidence that not all Domans are bad - that she needs. She'll probably fall back to her old ways somehow, for a brief period, hurting Gosetsu in the process (but probably only an emotional hurt, not physical) and this will be the moment she stops and reflects on what she has done.

Then I could see her voluntarily choosing to go elsewhere somehow, either as an actual hermit, or in the cultural sense where maybe she opts instead to move to Eorzea, maybe as a part of the Scions, maybe as just a common woman in a new part of the world. I highly doubt the Domans will forgive her, even if Hien himself did as much, simply because it would take a pretty herculean effort on her part to undo the past damage she caused. It's still a possibility, but it feels like nothing short of a Papalymo-esque self sacrifice would be enough to absolve her of her actions.

One key difference between Yotsuyu and Fordola that I see is that the former was honest with herself and everyone she interacted with. It was widely known that Yotsuyu was cruel and wanted the Doman people to suffer. She made no claim to be doing this for "her people" or any other high-minded ideal. She wanted revenge, and she had the power to enact it, so she did. What this difference means, if it means anything at all, I don't know. But I'm 100% certain that Gosetsu will be the main impetus and gateway to Yotsuyu's eventual healing.

And possibly set the stage for a re-breaking, depending on how the story goes.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Zenos was deliberately written to be horrific in an attempt to avoid having people sympathise with him. Given that he abused his own people as often as his enemies I cannot say I sympathise with him in any way and I'm probably one of the biggest Garlean enthusiasts around. I did enjoy him as a character though for that to continue to be the case that is largely dependent on whether or not the protagonists acknowledge that Zenos wasn't advancing Garlemald's cause in any meaningful way and was, in fact, detrimental to it whilst openly denouncing his loyalties to Garlemald shortly before his defeat.

Aside from his father stating that he was a monster we also know that the Emperor did not look upon Aulus kindly, either. That's the man responsible for Zenos' enhancements - so the angle of Zenos being forced to endure experimentation is unlikely as all signs point to him embracing such things willingly.

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But that was immediately preceded by Lyse saying that Zenos was made into a monster, not born as one. Simply because of the juxtaposition, I have to think something caused that transformation. I'm half expecting that to be an Echo flashback later on.

The key to Zenos is a very simple psychological principle: nature vs. nurture. Are people limited by fate - is a psychopath the way they are because it's in their nature and they are therefore destined to become one? Or are they shaped by their environment into what they are - and do people have the ability to influence what they become?

It's the wrong question. The question isn't which is right, the question is how did a person's nature mix with how they were nurtured to produce what they are?

Case of Zenos
Zenos is clearly a psychopath. He cares nothing for the lives of others, regularly cutting down his own soldiers, ordering them blasted with artillery fire to win a battle, and so on. His main interest in Fordola and Yotsuyu is as tools, and when they prove defective he threatens their lives. He only sees the Warrior of Light as a stress toy the first couple times we clash; everyone else bores him and he flat-out tells Lyse if she doesn't impress him he'll kill her. Zenos endorses Aulus' research as a means to greater power, and implicitly endorses all of the horrible experiments mal Asina carried out. In the end he denounces the Imperial ideal of conquering the world to suppress primals as cowardice, and spits in the face of those ideals by merging with Shinryu. (This is on top of the typical Garlean "everyone else is a bunch of savages" mentality.)

The way to filter out what he was nurtured into being is by looking at his shadow, the Warrior of Light. Zenos, simply put, is what the Warrior of Light could become if they let their battle lust override everything else. Thankfully this is not the case - the Warrior of Light has been shown to care for numerous other characters at various points in the story - but without positive influences like the Scions, the GC leaders, Haurchefant, eventually Ysayle and Estinien, and so on, they could have easily turned out like Zenos: a psychopathic blood knight who only cares about the thrill of combat, and follows orders only so far as they get them what they want. (To what extent the Warrior of Light actually is like Zenos is open for interpretation; there is a whole thread devoted to it, but suffice to say the Warrior of Light has not been portrayed as psychopathically as Zenos.)

This is all underscored by Zenos' final line:

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Originally Posted by Zenos yae Galvus

Farewell, my first friend. My enemy.

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Zenos grew up with no positive influences in his life. He didn't have the close friends we do, something to go back to at the end of the fight. He lived for the fight because it was all he had. It wasn't just what gave his life meaning, violence was his life - little wonder, then, that he practically worshiped it. At heart we are the same - both the Warrior of Light and Zenos live to do battle - but while Zenos claims to be a warrior (i.e. he conquers and attacks, he preys on the weak), the Warrior of Light (pun not intended) is a soldier - they defend and protect the innocent, usually from warriors. This is a bit muddied in the aggressive Stormblood war for Doman and Ala Mhigan independence, but don't forget that Zenos' ruthless abuse and exploitation of those peoples would have continued unabated had we done nothing.

In better circumstances, Zenos could have grown up to be the Vayne so many people desperately wished him to be, or perhaps even better, as a noble soldier of Garlemald and a worthy (if not superior) successor to Varis. A man who enjoyed a good fight and had no issue fighting for his homeland, but nonetheless knew when to put that aside and do what was best for everyone - just like the Warrior of Light. (We do work with Regula van Hydrus to try and stop Zurvan from awakening, and are shown to treat defeated and captured Imperial soldiers with dignity and respect. The Ala Mhigan Resistance is its own can of worms and not relevant to this.)

Instead he seems to have been neglected and taught that power is the only thing that matters in the world. That he would grow up to be a psychopathic tyrant, then, is little wonder.

Who, then, is to blame? Varis himself, obviously. Imperial philosophy. Warrior culture, the end result of the "might makes right" philosophy, so on and so forth.

Zenos represents how far the Warrior of Light could fall if they let their battle lust overcome them. Conversely, the Warrior of Light represents the best Zenos could have been had he been given positive influences and a meaning in life beyond conquest and violence.

Just think about that for a bit.

TL;DR
-Though his nature is an equal factor, the Empire made Zenos what he was. Consider that.

As good as it is that everyone is analyzing the motivation of the "black hats" from this expansion, the thing you have to keep in mind is that knowing why someone did something does not mean that they deserve forgiveness. If a man steals a loaf of bread because he is starving, he deserves help and forgiveness.

Yotsuya, who decided to take her revenge on an entire country of people because they didn't help her, the help and forgiveness are not warranted. Yotsuya had no way of knowing if any of the Domans who she thought should have helped her had the ability to do so. Nor was every Doman aware of her situation. Regret the tragedy of a culture that allowed her abuse, but do not forgive her just because her life was hard.

Fordola was guilty of war crimes that are punishable by death to this day. She considered herself Garlean and fought for her countries military which she should not be condemned for. However, it's how she used her power that makes her deserving of death.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

But that was immediately preceded by Lyse saying that Zenos was made into a monster, not born as one. Simply because of the juxtaposition, I have to think something caused that transformation. I'm half expecting that to be an Echo flashback later on.

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When I saw that bit of dialogue, I was actually wondering if it was intended to be a reference to Confucianism via Mencius: that people were born inherently good (or at least not bad), but required positive influences and instructions in order to stay good. (Yes, I'm simplifying immensely.)

There are probably better examples in Western philosophy; I've noticed they tend to be more rigorous in their reasoning.

Just to stir the pot...

I see a lot of posts that reference modern rules of engagement, modern military ethics, modern standards of what is acceptable force in a combat theater. Such standards were born of a war whose veterans are still alive... when nations would incinerate cities from the air in hopes that the loss civilian life might put a dent in morale and the main argument against chemical weapons was "the west will retaliate (so use them on everyone else)". The concept of a "war crime" is, barring a few sporadic examples against specific individuals, about as old as the twentieth century.

Can Magic Greece even see Magitek Persia through the lens of violations of humanitarian law? Atrocious? Absolutely. Above the dignity of certain Legati? Definitely. But this the Empire at large has waltzed through genocide, chemical warfare, human experimentation, and trying to drop the moon on their enemies. Who in either army should be surprised at Garlemald toppling a tower to deny the enemy a strategic location and delay their advance at the cost of sacrificing a unit or two? What legionnaire (especially of the XIIth) has any reason to expect that they would be safe from being sacrificed in battle?

Maybe the Sharlayan Conventions will give Hydaelyn the luxury of the same moral compass we enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

"Modern" RoE in war

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This is a point I've brought up a time or two before; all's fair in love and war. Prior to the advent of the Geneva convention, the rule of war was that there were no rules. If the enemy used a tool or tactic that was effective, you adapted that tool or tactic for yourself and then used it back on them harder and more effectively than they used it on you. When it comes down to survival, nature dictates that you do what you have to do. And if an enemy comes at you to annihilate you? You fight back like you are trying to annihilate them in return. Anything less just invites further aggression from any already hostile enemy.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Who in either army should be surprised at Garlemald toppling a tower to deny the enemy a strategic location and delay their advance at the cost of sacrificing a unit or two?

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Normally I would agree with this, and I WOULD make the argument that the whole idea of a "war crime" in the setting of FFXIV is nonsense. The idea of war crimes in real life are a very recent invention. War crimes prior to that (and, very likely, also in the setting of FFXIV) are whatever the winning side decides war crimes are, no more, no less. The ridiculous penalties levied against Germany and its allies after WWI are a prime example of this. (Of course, even in real life there isn't universal agreement on what constitutes a war crime - only the folks who agree to obey the Geneva convention, and folks who are afraid to defy the folks who agree to obey the Geneva convention.)

However, that said, you ask who should be surprised, but the game itself shows us very clearly who is surprised: the Garleans manning the cannon, whom Fordola ordered to fire. It honestly didn't make much sense to me; it's well-known that Garleans consider their conscripts to be extremely expendable, and the idea that they would hesitate to expend them if it were to bring them a strategic advantage is absurd. There was no good reason for the cannoneers to be surprised at the command, and as near as I can tell the scene was shoehorned in simply to make Fordola's decision all the more difficult; to lend it a gravitas that it simply should not have had. The game made it clear that Fordola had crossed the line - but there was no good reason for that line to exist in the first place, given the kind of atrocities Garleans were already known for.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Just to stir the pot...

I see a lot of posts that reference modern rules of engagement, modern military ethics, modern standards of what is acceptable force in a combat theater. Such standards were born of a war whose veterans are still alive... when nations would incinerate cities from the air in hopes that the loss civilian life might put a dent in morale and the main argument against chemical weapons was "the west will retaliate (so use them on everyone else)". The concept of a "war crime" is, barring a few sporadic examples against specific individuals, about as old as the twentieth century.

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To be fair people view things through that lens because for most people it's the only lens they can use to gauge moral actions with. Frankly it's the whole point of having a moral code to gauge how a specific action or moral matches up with what we think is right or wrong. So the fact that people cannot disconnect their own morality system from the game world doesn't really surprise me. Whether it's an actual problem or not is a different discussion.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Definitely. But this the Empire at large has waltzed through genocide, chemical warfare, human experimentation, and trying to drop the moon on their enemies. Who in either army should be surprised at Garlemald toppling a tower to deny the enemy a strategic location and delay their advance at the cost of sacrificing a unit or two? What legionnaire (especially of the XIIth) has any reason to expect that they would be safe from being sacrificed in battle?

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The American government have condoned slavery, used nuclear weapons, used chemical weapons, tortured innocent people with no due process. Yet people still buy in.

Who knows how much of that information gets back to the average enlisted Garlean and in what form? The average person is very easily convinced to look the other way or simply accept the action as absolutely necessary.

People are always surprised when it happens to them.

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

What I am saying is that I don't see why she doesn't deserve redemption.

Criminals are sentenced to jail, not just to punish them, but also to reform them. The two objectives go hand in hand.

But first, there must be mercy. If Yotsuyu's punishment is tyrannically harsh, then it'll only serve to harden her already warped view of society's inherent cruelty.

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Well it probably comes down to how far you see her past being a reason for her to deserve redemption or not. If someone is more of the believe that she is not fully to blame for her actions thanks to her past, they might not want her to be punished to harshly but if you see her still fully responsible for it, why should she be redeemed?

I see her as judge able for her actions. Her past does explain her hatred but everyone has a choice and torturing and killing innocent people and enjoying it too is way too much to forgive..I mean where to we truly stop wanting a redemption for people? Do dictators deserve redemption too? Does someone have to kill a certain amount of people in cold blood before they are beyond it? In the end she was leading Doma, making the people suffer and die under her rule and she even enjoyed it. I just see no reason why the alliance or even Doma should let her live.

In the end, its quite often pointed out that even though the morality is quite similar to our world they still differ too and thus I am quite sure that normally people would receive the death penalty for such acts. And even in peace and harmony, death is sometimes a necessary punishment.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Who in either army should be surprised at Garlemald toppling a tower to deny the enemy a strategic location and delay their advance at the cost of sacrificing a unit or two? What legionnaire (especially of the XIIth) has any reason to expect that they would be safe from being sacrificed in battle?

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The biggest question is: Whats in the pot?...°L°

Well yes it is kinda surprising that a Garlean soldier would be shocked that such an order was given but we dont even know how far the common people and soldiers even know about all the horrible things that were done in the wars. Garlemalds rulers could have simply said that the moon falling was not accepted in their view (which would be quite the lie) and that it was Nael and her soldiers that did it. Also the poison they experimented on were only used on war prisoners and not their own people (as far as I can remember). So maybe in the end they are fine if the enemy is hit will all the horrible stuff, but this time it would be them too that would take a hit.

Still the Eorzean alliance was truly horrified by the poison and by them shooting their own people so maybe they have a higher moral standard? At least we know of no such recent attacks from their side.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

the game itself shows us very clearly who is surprised: the Garleans manning the cannon
<...> It honestly didn't make much sense to me;

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Are we taking into account that the tower fired upon was defended exclusively by Skulls?

Raubahn refers to the XIIth on the ground as the "stragglers" from the initial assault. Both sides (Zenos, Fordola, Pipin, Conrad, Lyse) give a sit-rep that mentions only the Skulls being encountered in the main tower, and that Conrad was trying to convince them to surrender (and succeeding).

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Imperial Centurion
Commander, if I may! Our people─your people are still in there!

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If I'm reading it right, the Centurion is shocked that she would fire on them, sure that only a madman would even ask her to knowing that reinforcements were already scrambled. She says he's welcome to advise Zenos otherwise, but they both know that they'd just join the dead.

Prior to this, Fordola claimed that strength was the Ala Mhigans' key to freedom. If Ala Mhigo could fit the mold and do their part, they could stand proud and free(ish) as part of the Empire. She claimed her biggest fear was dying before she'd won the battles required to prove Ala Mhigo's strength, determination, and loyalty. (Echoes of Gaius.) Just before this scene, Fordola requested to rejoin the Skulls, but Zenos had planned everything in advance and knew she wouldn't make it on time. Instead he tells her he has a duty to entrust to her.

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Fordola
Wars are won on the backs of the dead. Theirs and ours. There is no truth but this.
We must remain firm and resolute, and always, always do our duty. Now, give the order!

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If I'm reading it right, she thinks of the Skulls as Urianger thought of Minfilia: if they had the choice, they'd still make the sacrifice. Zenos, meanwhile, knew that sending reinforcements would waste actual XIIth Legion resources. Remember, he'd engineered the rooftop battle with the Warrior of Light; he was pulling behind Castrum Abania regardless. Instead, he used Baelsar's leftovers to lure the Alliance into a slaughter that he knew would further provoke the Warrior of Light to join The Hunt.

Zenos just delighted in making Ala Mhigans kill each other, and in making Fordola pull a trigger disguised as the fulfillment of Gaius's promises.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I see a lot of posts that reference modern rules of engagement, modern military ethics, modern standards of what is acceptable force in a combat theater.

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Well... if we want to be truly pedantic, there a lot of concepts in the fictional world of Eorzea that are arguably anachronistic to its apparently mediaeval setting, starting for example with the concept of "economy". The idea of an "economy" is actually quite modern, and didn't gain currency until well into the 19th century. Before that, commerce was understood in mercantilist, zero-sum, terms. "Trade", insofar as pre-modern Europeans understood it, was structured on unequal, monopolistic terms between their home countries and the colonies.

...and yet we have Ala Mhigans in the game thinking along anachronistically contemporary lines, instinctively knowing that trade will be necessary to rebuild their newly liberated nation. That's.... not quite how mediaeval kingdoms actually behaved in real-world history (they thought more along the lines of plunder and sorched-earth tactics).

What I'm basically saying, in a long-winded way, is that you're preaching to the choir as far I'm concerned. :p I know very well that I was taking creative licence in likening Fordola's actions to a modern "war crime". But the story liberally mixes modern concepts with an ostensibly pre-modern setting, quite likely because it makes the story more relatable to a greater number of people.

So, if using the analogy of "war crimes" helps people to better understand the essence of the debate, then I'm all for it. :) That's even before we consider how Eorzea essentially functions like a modern society in a faux "Ye Olde World" setting (linkpearl-telephones; modern kettles; instant teleportation; bathrooms with showers; bikini swimsuits!; etc, etc; need I list more? ;) ), so who's to say that Eorzean morality isn't broadly comparable with ours?

As for the point about compassion and mercy, I see that I've not managed to quite get my point across, and I'm already exhausted from a long day of toiling through multiple news copy. So, I'll take it up another day.

The gist of it though is that we need to ask why someone like Yotsuyu survived, and consider her possible function in the larger story of Eorzea. This lies at the heart of why I strongly believe her redemption arc, if she gets one, will be tied to the larger story of breaking the cycle of hate that has trapped the Source and its shards for eons now. More on this later, if I can manage it.

@Cilia I apologise that I have nothing to contribute to this at present (I'd love to sink my teeth into an exhaustive case study on him at some point, especially in the context of Garlean culture, no pun intended), except: [slow clap]. Magnificent--thank you for writing this up.

One thing that I've noticed several times in this thread is the idea that the Skulls might have been alright with or agreed to the sacrifice. I personally do not believe this to be true. If they were willing to be sacrificed to the cause, at least on this very literal level, then things would have gone very differently. Namely, the fact that they were quite clearly not fanatical enough to throw their lives away for their cause. If they were fanatical, it would probably have taken a bit more than Kemp talking to them for them to surrender. They would have been more inclined to fight to the death, like Rhitayn, various Temple Knights, and the VII legion had previously in the story. I'm not necessarily saying that Fordola doesn't have any positive motivations regarding her decision, but I think it's worthy to think about the fact that her subordinate Skulls were definitely NOT willing to be sacrificed.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Are we taking into account that the tower fired upon was defended exclusively by Skulls?

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Hmm, I don't remember that being mentioned. There were a lot of non-Skull soldiers at the base, it was a pretty big tower, and there just aren't that many Skulls. Are we really certain that there were only Skulls in there?

Oh, and I thought of someone else who was surprised by the attack: The Alliance. Who, again, really oughtn't have been surprised, given previous Garlean atrocities.

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

One thing that I've noticed several times in this thread is the idea that the Skulls might have been alright with or agreed to the sacrifice. I personally do not believe this to be true. If they were willing to be sacrificed to the cause, at least on this very literal level, then things would have gone very differently. Namely, the fact that they were quite clearly not fanatical enough to throw their lives away for their cause. If they were fanatical, it would probably have taken a bit more than Kemp talking to them for them to surrender. They would have been more inclined to fight to the death, like Rhitayn, various Temple Knights, and the VII legion had previously in the story. I'm not necessarily saying that Fordola doesn't have any positive motivations regarding her decision, but I think it's worthy to think about the fact that her subordinate Skulls were definitely NOT willing to be sacrificed.

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They may not have been - but Fordola clearly thought they were, and said as much when we confronted her. I've little doubt that she believed their convictions were on par with her own, and that she believed she herself had the convictions to sacrifice her own life if it would have advanced her cause.

It's possible that Fordola misjudged the devotion of her Skulls (after all, she was unaware that one of her Skulls was, in fact, a deep cover agent, as was revealed in some of the Peaks sidequests). However, entertaining thoughts of surrender does not necessarily mean that they weren't devoted to the cause. Dying pointlessly does nothing to advance the cause, after all, and a prisoner of war lives to perhaps fight again another day. The Skulls were unaware that they were being set up as bait to lure the Alliance into the line of fire - but it's entirely possible that if they HAD known, they might have approved.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Are we really certain that there were only Skulls in there?

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Relatively. As I said, Raubahn hand-waves the soldiers at the bottom by calling them the garrison's "stragglers" and it's universally "the Skulls" mentioned with regard to the main tower.

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Aulus
I am informed that Ala Ghiri was recently occupied by the Resistance, and that an attack on Specula Imperatoris is considered imminent. This could provide an ideal opportunity to test her performance in the field.

Zenos yae Galvus
Your...Skulls, was it? They have joined the garrison at the watchtower?

Fordola
...Yes, my lord. By your leave, I would rendezvous with them and lead a counterattack against the insurgents.

Zenos yae Galvus
No. Even were you to leave now, you would not arrive in time.

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Raubahn
Our work here is all but done. What of Conrad and his men?

Pipin
They are for the main tower. The Skulls have offered fierce resistance thus far, but Conrad seems to believe he can convince them to lay down their arms...

Raubahn
Then we will tend to the stragglers down below. With me!

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Alphinaud
It...it was all so sudden. Conrad had just convinced the last few Skulls to surrender, when...when we heard the bang, and...and everything started to shake...

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Fordola
Aye, I gave the order to fire.

Lyse
It was over! The Skulls had surrendered! No one else had to die! And you killed them! Your own people! Your own comrades!

Fordola
You're right. I killed them. Ansfrid, Hrudolf, Emelin, all the rest─trained and fought with every last one of them. Good soldiers to a man. I gave the order that led to their deaths...and I knew exactly what I was doing.

Lyse
But why!? Why would you do that!?

Fordola
They died so that all Ala Mhigans could live free. That was all we ever wanted. We made a promise that we would do whatever it took so that one day...one day the imperials would learn to accept us. But everything comes at a price. And if you haven't got the means to pay, then you pay with blood. Service guarantees citizenship, but citizenship guarantees naught. It's not enough to do your part, oh no. You have to run faster, fight harder, kill more and more and more─and only then will you be equal. That's just how it is out here in the provinces. You buy your freedom with blood─there is no other way!

Lyse
Shut up! Shut your mouth! You don't get to talk about freedom! You killed your own! They trusted you and you killed them! Murderer! Butcher! Traitor!

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Hmm, I don't remember that being mentioned. There were a lot of non-Skull soldiers at the base, it was a pretty big tower, and there just aren't that many Skulls. Are we really certain that there were only Skulls in there?

Oh, and I thought of someone else who was surprised by the attack: The Alliance. Who, again, really oughtn't have been surprised, given previous Garlean atrocities.

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Firing on their own like that was, to the Alliance's knowledge, unprecedented as far as I'm aware.

If Yotsuyu gets redeemed and not Fordola I will be so pissed.

Fordola was misguided by false promises of a freedom in the empire that raised her while Yotsuyu was cruel for cruelties sake

Fordola experienced how the garleans treated her. They called her names and denied her accomplishments so i guess a huge motivator for her was spite

In the end it comes down to what she and lyse see as more beneficial for ala mhigo- being an equal part of the empire or independent, but Fordola could see the error of her ways. In her mind, she tried to do what was best for her homeland

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Originally Posted by Jyera

@Cilia I apologise that I have nothing to contribute to this at present (I'd love to sink my teeth into an exhaustive case study on him at some point, especially in the context of Garlean culture, no pun intended), except: [slow clap]. Magnificent--thank you for writing this up.

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Hey, thanks! I just noticed that a lot of people have put a lot of effort into explaining Yotsuyu and Fordola's personalities and motivations, while Zenos is largely ignored as nothing more than an immoral killer. While it's easy to write him off as nothing more than a psychopathic, tyrannical blood knight, those four words give us a window into the past that shaped him, and I think it's a shame to ignore that. Only by understanding Zenos can we begin to remedy the conditions that created him.

Anyway, back on point.

While there are no known or enforced rules of war on Hydaelyn, the Eorzean Alliance at least holds itself to some code of conduct.

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Originally Posted by Storm Officer, "The Road Home"

Whatever "rules of war" can be said to exist, that whoreson has broken them all. This will not stand!

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(Of course Zenos would break the "rules of war." He's a psychopath.)

The Centurion in Castrum Abania also shows no small amount of trepidation in issuing the order to fire on Specula Imperatoris, seemingly trying to make a moral stand before being threatened with Zenos' wrath. Furthermore, the Imperial soldier we helped out of the wreckage seemed rather outraged that his comrades fired at him to get the Alliance.

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Originally Posted by Wounded Imperial Soldier, "The Road Home"

...It wasn't long ago I was trying to kill you and yours. I half expected you were about to slit my throat. To hells with this. I should be back home in Ilsabard, instead of taking fire from my so-called comrades. Put me in a gaol or wherever─I'm through with it. Do you hear me? I surrender!

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This suggests that intentional friendly fire is not common or expected, even in the XIIth. This also proves that some Garleans were still alive when the shot was fired.

It is heavily implied that the Skulls, sans Fordola, were all killed in the shot and aftermath. Tragically, this means Fordola killed the few people who shared her ideal in service to it. Fordola does seem to believe that the other Skulls would have accepted dying in service to that ideal, but she had no real way of knowing - she sacrificed them without their consent. Regardless, if she knew they had turned traitor, she likely would have ordered the shot anyway. She "had to" in order to win Ala Mhigo's "freedom," and the other Skulls betraying that cause wouldn't change the outcome. (Zenos got his hooks in her good with the superficial charm endemic to psychopaths.)

I do believe Fordola can be redeemed, as she is rather troubled ordering the shot. Still, she first has to acknowledge and accept that what she did was wrong, then vow to set things right. Fight for an Ala Mhigo for everybody, not just an Ala Mhigo for those who support the Empire (which amounts to... pretty much just her at this point). Only then can Fordola begin to atone - and atonement is a path, not a destination.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Fordola's path

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If, and this is a big if of course, she is able to see the error in her ways and begin to come around, who then would accept her? Definitely not the alliance or Ala Mhigo. She's done some unforgivable things, not the least of which is enforcing two decades of oppression on an entire people, however well-intentioned she may have been. She could probably get away with a hermit-like life, or live in exile, say Hingashi, or even Othard. Her skills would definitely be in demand, so life as a mercenary is a possibility, but she would likely have to watch over her shoulder more than most, and we don't know what any long-term effects of the artificial Resonance/Echo are, if any.

My money is on the Scions. It'd be easy to place her under Urianger's "care" in order to allow him to observe her and hopefully address any issues that come up with her condition, while in actuality giving her more or less the same free reign that the other Scions have, adjusted appropriately to the level of trust she has earned via her actions. I wonder if maybe the WoL, and to a lesser extent maybe Krile too, will become instrumental in helping Fordola adapt to and live with her enhanced condition. After all, even the WoL has had moments where the Echo was too much and it left us in a debilitated state somehow, and this is with a "natural" Echo. There's no telling what an artificial Echo can do.

Which then begs the question; how long was Zenos Resonant for? I highly doubt his power was recently acquired, as he's shown to be effortlessly defeating several Doman fighters following the recent insurgency that led Yugiri and her refugees to Eorzea. So he's had his artificial Echo for at least that long for sure, and likely longer. Did Zenos or Malus even think to take data on the long-term effects of Resonance? Is Fordola a ticking time bomb of insanity, with all the unpleasantness that entails?

Ironically, while Fordola arguably has a better grade of character than Yotsuyu, I see the latter as much more likely to turn a new leaf. Fordola has a WHOLE lot of sunk-cost fallacy to overcome. She's done things that she, herself, finds reprehensible in the name of a greater good. If she were to give up on her goals now, to admit that they were wrong, would essentially mean that all those years of oppression and the murder of her closest friends and comrades were all for nothing. That's an awfully bitter pill to swallow, and the easier path is to just blame the ones who spoiled her plans. (Plus, as I noted earlier, she doesn't have reason yet to believe she was wrong; Zenos may have fallen and Ala Mhigo may be free for now, but the Garlean Empire is still a very scary force, and if they take Ala Mhigo again they won't be as soft on them as Zenos was.)

Yotsuyu, on the other hand, has basically gotten to the end of a decades-long temper tantrum. She doesn't attach any moral labels to the atrocities she committed; she did them because they made her feel good, and things like morality and justification had little part in it. The blind, unreasoning lashing out was, essentially, childish - and now that her childishness is no longer being indulged, she's going to have to grow up. However, while she may not have power over others anymore, it's interesting to note that for the first time in her life others (except, possibly, Gotetsu) have no power over her, either. She's no longer under the control of an abusive family or Garlean masters, and is free to choose her own path forward. Redemption won't be a part of Yotsuyu's future, because she's done nothing that she regrets, but at the same time she may well be intelligent enough to realize that attempting to continue her games without the support of her Garlean masters will not end well for her.

Neither woman is going to be welcome among her people, or has much chance of gaining their forgiveness. For Fordola, that's a chain - gaining acceptance, both from her Garlean peers and from her kinsmen, was a big motivator for her. It's not so for Yotsuyu; she gave up any pretense of attachment to the people of Doma when she betrayed them and will likely be happy never to see Doma or Domans ever again (at least, now that she can no longer torture them). Fordola has the weight of her sins weighing her down; Yotsuyu feels no guilt at all. Yotsuyu could, conceivably, take refuge in anonymity in another land and live out her days as a seemingly-normal woman. She accomplished the one goal she had - to bring misery to the Domans - and lived that life for many, many years. Fordola's goals remain unfulfilled, and while Ala Mhigo may be free, its freedom is a mockery of the freedom she'd envisioned for it.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Hey, thanks! I just noticed that a lot of people have put a lot of effort into explaining Yotsuyu and Fordola's personalities and motivations, while Zenos is largely ignored as nothing more than an immoral killer. While it's easy to write him off as nothing more than a psychopathic, tyrannical blood knight, those four words give us a window into the past that shaped him, and I think it's a shame to ignore that. Only by understanding Zenos can we begin to remedy the conditions that created him.

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The problem with understanding Zenos is that the lore itself gives us so very little to work with. We know almost nothing of his upbringing. We can speculate about whether his disposition is due to nurture or nature, but it's nothing more than speculation. Perhaps future MSQs will share a bit of insight as to how he turned out the way he did - but I find it unlikely. He was pretty much built up to be a mad dog that needed to be put down - a plot device, not a person - and now that we have, his story is over.

But at least with Fordola she regrets actions and she was not shown enjoying those things she did. So I can see her, unlike Yotsuyu, truly becoming some scion in the near future, but only after a believable change and not something really fast. Yotsuyu did everything because she felt imo morally right to do so. She believed that it was the fault of all the Domans thus her hurting/killing them was right. At least thats how I kinda see it because I feel that its difficult to live without any kind of moral labels.

Just the point that she enjoyed doing those things to innocent people makes her not redeemable in my eyes and who would really forgive her? Hien, after knowing her story, still cut her down and left her to die and the rest of doma will probably want her death. If she is not redeemable then there remains the question of why someone like her should even be alive. It may sound harsh but there are no known therapist in this world and normally such a deep trauma will not just be gone after a couple of people showing her kindness (and why would they even show her that), so what place does she still have in the story? Thats something I will remain skeptic because I really have the feeling that they just kept her alive to make a redemption arc and either let her go at the end or let her sacrifice herself. Also in the view of the alliance and Hien, letting her be alive could be dangerous too. How will they ever know if she truly means it and is just not simply playing along to get to her end? I would not take that risk for a woman that killed countless of innocent people (and enjoyed it on top of that). But thats just my view on this and I believe that SE sees this a bit different. x)

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Originally Posted by Alleo

so what place does [Yotsuyu] still have in the story? Thats something I will remain skeptic because I really have the feeling that they just kept her alive to make a redemption arc and either let her go at the end or let her sacrifice herself.

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The way I see it, Yotsuyu's fate is going to be played for contrast with Fordola's. We know that Fordola is going to be put on a trial and perhaps made to answer for what she did but there's no indication that this is going to happen to Yotsuyu. At the end of 4.0 no one save the audience is even aware that she and Gosetsu made it out of Doma Castle alive. For all we know some ship bound for Thavnair will pick them up and the moment it hits port Yotsuyu will disappear from the radar for a good long while.

Until the Warrior of Light makes their way to Radz-at-Han and runs into a woman who looks suspiciously similar to a certain former viceroy.

I feel like it's unfair to brush Yotsuyu off as 'childish' and as simply throwing a 'temper tantrum'. Given that she was physically and sexually abused for years - seemingly from an early age at that - things are quite a bit more complicated in regards to her behaviour, thinking and actions. That doesn't excuse what she did but at the same she is a consequence of the unpleasant aspects of Doman society. Hien even acknowledged as much and her survival means that we're unlikely to hear the end of that plot point either.

EDIT:

...and why is my avatar now a miqo'te? Is it showing as that for anybody else? I guess it has something to do with my transfer from Balmung to Cerberus. Oh well!

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Originally Posted by Quor

[H]ow long was Zenos Resonant for? I highly doubt his power was recently acquired, as he's shown to be effortlessly defeating several Doman fighters following the recent insurgency that led Yugiri and her refugees to Eorzea. So he's had his artificial Echo for at least that long for sure, and likely longer. Did Zenos or Malus even think to take data on the long-term effects of Resonance? Is Fordola a ticking time bomb of insanity, with all the unpleasantness that entails?

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It's unknown how long Zenos possessed Resonance. This was discussed elsewhere, but the conclusion that was reached is that his magic use is not the same thing as Resonance, and Zenos was using (well-disguised) magic back in Rhalgr's Reach. On the other hand, he is not known to have possessed Resonance prior to our final bout in Ala Mhigo; his targeted capture of Krile suggests he needed her to carry out the Resonant experiments, or at least to grant others Resonance.

Given Resonance is a novel thing, long-term side effects (if any) are unknown. (Still no word on my pet theory that Inferno was a failed Resonant. C'mon Ferne!)

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

The problem with understanding Zenos is that the lore itself gives us so very little to work with. We know almost nothing of his upbringing. We can speculate about whether his disposition is due to nurture or nature, but it's nothing more than speculation. Perhaps future MSQs will share a bit of insight as to how he turned out the way he did - but I find it unlikely. He was pretty much built up to be a mad dog that needed to be put down - a plot device, not a person - and now that we have, his story is over.

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I know this is true, but both Fordola and Yotsuyu were products of their environment. Make no mistake, I'm not saying that Zenos wasn't a wild dog of war (or "rabid animal" as Lyse put it) that needed to be caged or put down for the good of... well, everyone, but I do think there's more to him than that. Violence was almost certainly in his nature, but that doesn't necessarily account for his psychopathy.

Simply stated, if Yotsuyu could be said to be the embodiment of Doma's sins, then I do believe Zenos could be said to be the embodiment of Garlemald's sins.

I just realized that in Fordolas mind, the reaction of the resistance have doomed Ala Mhigo. I mean we know the empire will retaliate. Fordola knew of the forces the empire has and what they are capable of and if the garleans deploy 2 legions to re-conquer ala mhigo, the punishment will be severe and the alliances part in it is also a danger to their lands as well.

I hope that gets touched upon that for her, Lyse doomed her homeland and all the people in it to a painful death (we know it won t happen bc plot and WoL ofc) and you can argue that she thought she acted in Ala Mhigos best interest.

They might have re-conquered ala mhigo but what price will they have to pay to keep it?

I hope the game adresses the aftermath of a nation that was a Province for decades and has to deal with real consequences for \\\\killing the crown prince\\\\' bc that is someting the garlean empire has to punish in full force or they demonstrate that they are pushovers

Well it truly depends if Varis cares enough for Ala Mhigo. He did not seem quite fazed for the loss and Hien also sent out his spies to create more unrest in other countries so it could be that they will be save thanks to that since Garlemald surely does not want to fight a war on more than one front and taking out the roots of new rebellions might be higher priority.

Also Fordolas actions would have not made it better. We saw that she treated the common people badly and at least the villagers already lived a terrible life under the Garlean rule so if nothing had changed for them, most would have probably be death somewhere in the future anyway. At least now they have their freedom back and maybe their motivation to fight and unlike before, where they stood alone against the empire, the whole alliance is together now and they have good fighters among their friend Hien too. I believe that it would not be that easy for Garlemald to take them back and on top of that Varis lost his son thus the one that should have followed on his throne..who knows what consequences this will bring.

Seeing how they solved the Uldah situation and how we barely hear anything about Ishgard and their problems..I am not sure if we see that much of an deep aftermath. Maybe like Ishgard we will have to deal with some factions of Ala Mhigo and maybe some attacks from Garlemald but I am not sure if they fully launch an attack again.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I feel like it's unfair to brush Yotsuyu off as 'childish' and as simply throwing a 'temper tantrum'. Given that she was physically and sexually abused for years - seemingly from an early age at that - things are quite a bit more complicated in regards to her behaviour, thinking and actions. That doesn't excuse what she did but at the same she is a consequence of the unpleasant aspects of Doman society. Hien even acknowledged as much and her survival means that we're unlikely to hear the end of that plot point either.

EDIT:

...and why is my avatar now a miqo'te? Is it showing as that for anybody else? I guess it has something to do with my transfer from Balmung to Cerberus. Oh well!

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The fact that Yotsuyu's abuse reaches back to her childhood is precisely what makes her behavior so childish. She never developed a conscience because of how horribly her family treated her, and believes all Domans are directly responsible for her suffering. This is untrue (most Domans likely had no idea who she was before Yotsuyu became acting viceroy), but she still treats any and all Domans as stress toys and sources of sadistic pleasure.

To believe she was the national whipping girl because a handful of people didn't treat her right is extremely immature of Yotsuyu. Only children believe the world revolves around them. That is why I call her actions a childish temper tantrum.

(inb4 "agree to disagree." /sarcasm. Nothing else to say on the matter, though. We've been through this before.)

Yes, you are showing up as a miqo'te.

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Originally Posted by SunAurel

I just realized that in Fordolas mind, the reaction of the resistance have doomed Ala Mhigo. I mean we know the empire will retaliate. Fordola knew of the forces the empire has and what they are capable of and if the garleans deploy 2 legions to re-conquer ala mhigo, the punishment will be severe and the alliances part in it is also a danger to their lands as well.

I hope that gets touched upon that for her, Lyse doomed her homeland and all the people in it to a painful death (we know it won t happen bc plot and WoL ofc) and you can argue that she thought she acted in Ala Mhigos best interest.

They might have re-conquered ala mhigo but what price will they have to pay to keep it?

I hope the game adresses the aftermath of a nation that was a Province for decades and has to deal with real consequences for \\\\killing the crown prince\\\\' bc that is someting the garlean empire has to punish in full force or they demonstrate that they are pushovers

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Whether the Empire will bring a reprisal to bear upon Eorzea / Doma for taking their territory back remains to be seen. Might makes right to the Empire, and if we were mighty enough to reclaim those lands and Varis does not value them enough to counterattack it's not inconceivable the Empire would leave well enough alone.

The Empire shouldn't overlook killing the crown prince (honestly I would have kept him alive as a POW to use Zenos as a bargaining chip), but Varis apparently did not care whether he lived or died... and Zenos killed himself anyway. That one's not on Eorzea.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

(inb4 "agree to disagree." /sarcasm. Nothing else to say on the matter, though. We've been through this before.)

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http://i.imgur.com/Dlb884i.jpg

That aside, Varis acknowledged that Zenos was a monster and also refrained from sending reinforcements to back him up. Zenos also openly denounced Garlemald's cause at multiple points and showed little in the way of loyalty to his people. If anything, he was a liability and getting rid of him serves to do Varis a favour. With a reputation for being a tactician it isn't impossible that he intended for Zenos to perish or at least be far enough away from him to avoid a grab for power. We also do not know if the Emperor has additional heirs - or even who is next in line for the throne should Varis perish. It is something I could see Varis accounting for, though.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

snip

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I feel like the empire needs to do something drastic because at least for me, they lost their teeth and are more a pushover than real antagonists.

If they are like 'two of our provinces won their freedom and our crown prince is dead? who cares!' would just show us how they are not really a threat if they don't retaliate

Throughout the MSQ we are shown that people are scared of that retaliation if they try to win their freedom, and if they let it slide once it happened then that fear loses all credibility imo, so there needs to be a massive strike from the Empire story-wise.

Zenos might've done suicide, but he was still the crown prince and died during the battle for Ala Mhigos freedom - the potential for propaganda is huge

What I propose - story wise- is very dark and cruel, but I want the empire to show up in Gyr Abania with two cannons and legions and start bombing the villages/landscapes and demand Lyse's head + absolute surrender and go back to being a province.
It's harsh, but it shows us just why people were reluctant to follow and this is also where I see Fordolas redemption.

Fordola has insight on Garlean tactics and their infrastrucure and I thinkthat even if she were to come free and return to the empire, they'd execute her for her failure. Her knowledge of the Garlean military could turn the tide and deal a massive blow that secures Ala Mhigos independence

I see her refusing her aid at first, but when she sees that the alternative would be utter annihilation for her homeland, maybe she'd have a change of heart. Maybe Lyse would say something that echoes her words to Zenos where she said she would gladly give her life ont he battlefield to achieve a great victory, and that could also happen for Ala Mhigos freedom since that was ultimately her goal as well - though she saw it happen differently.

Heck, put that Garlean in charge that was badmouthing her and let her just join OUT OF SPITE since that's the most relatable thing ever

I also think she will die, but her death and actions might be what secures their freedom in the long run. It would be tragic and ironic that the woman marked as kinslayer and traitor was one responsible for their freedom, and something i think SE would do

But right now, the empire needs something drastic so that they can actually fill the role of an antagonist because right now they appear to be a laughable foe.

I want an enemy that can retaliate and push back against us and so far the empire has only been pushed back.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

That aside, Varis acknowledged that Zenos was a monster and also refrained from sending reinforcements to back him up. Zenos also openly denounced Garlemald's cause at multiple points and showed little in the way of loyalty to his people. If anything, he was a liability and getting rid of him serves to do Varis a favour. With a reputation for being a tactician it isn't impossible that he intended for Zenos to perish or at least be far enough away from him to avoid a grab for power. We also do not know if the Emperor has additional heirs - or even who is next in line for the throne should Varis perish. It is something I could see Varis accounting for, though.

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Do we know if the other claimants were killed during the fighting after Solus died? I can't remember.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Do we know if the other claimants were killed during the fighting after Solus died? I can't remember.

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The War of Succession is described as being brutal in the lore book and at least some of the claimants to the throne were killed. We also know that there's a title in Garlemald for those who have royal blood but have no claim to the throne so I would not put it past some claimants to simply have cast aside their claim to ensure their survival. Others may have gone into hiding to bide their time and lick their wounds. As it stands, I don't see anyone rising up to challenge Varis' claim nor do I see him being written out of the plot anytime soon. A few people were convinced he was going to be given the 'Gestahl' treatment on Azyz Lla but that did not happen.

If anything, I suspect he may have a change of heart at some point - Rufus Shinra style - and enforce changes that will allow Garlemald to prosper, albeit in a different manner than before. He also strikes me as someone who may very well sacrifice himself for the 'greater good' at some point though they already did that with Regula. Ultimately, though, his main concern is finding some way to put an end to the Eikon threat. Elidibus being involved with him puts a wrench in the works but if he can listen to an Ascian then I see no reason why he cannot come to listen to a genuine attempt at diplomacy on the part of the Warrior of Light for the sake of all those who will perish in a full on war with Garlemald.

(Which is pretty much what the Ascians want to orchestrate, almost certainly...so someone among the protagonists should catch on to that sometime soon...hopefully...)

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Do we know if the other claimants were killed during the fighting after Solus died? I can't remember.

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I don't recall if we ever figured out for sure whose grave Varis spit on, but I feel it was unlikely to be Solus' so probably his uncle's. After all Varis was said to favor his grandfather Solus above all else, but considered him too weak/lenient on his sons. It's also likely that Varis is the son of a third son of Solus', since the first-born died when he was eight and the second-born is called Varis' uncle and not father. (Or perhaps there's a daughter we're missing; I'm honestly unsure how the son of a daughter falls in primogeniture succession or w/e)

Other than that uncle, I don't believe we know of any other yae than Zenos, no.

(We also know Gaius killed eight aspirants to the crown before the War of Succession, but given the word 'aspirant' and not 'apparent,' I feel it's likely they weren't in the line of succession (or were pretty deep in).

It was nine, not eight.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

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Discussing the complexity of Garlean morality is impossible because Garlemald is amoral - it does not care about right or wrong, only what works and what is efficient. Right and wrong do not enter the equation of its decision making.

I agree that Varis may have intentionally put Zenos where he was knowing his son would go crazy and get himself killed. Reinforcements weren't sent because the other legions were too busy keeping watch for revolts in the wake of Doma's liberation. (Zenos would likely have refused the aid anyway.)

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Originally Posted by SunAurel

I feel like the empire needs to do something drastic because at least for me, they lost their teeth and are more a pushover than real antagonists.

If they are like 'two of our provinces won their freedom and our crown prince is dead? who cares!' would just show us how they are not really a threat if they don't retaliate

Throughout the MSQ we are shown that people are scared of that retaliation if they try to win their freedom, and if they let it slide once it happened then that fear loses all credibility imo, so there needs to be a massive strike from the Empire story-wise.

Zenos might've done suicide, but he was still the crown prince and died during the battle for Ala Mhigos freedom - the potential for propaganda is huge

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It took an entire expansion's story to defeat one legion split across two provinces, and even then we only won due to ineptitude on the part of Fordola and Yotsuyu and Zenos not caring about victory. Varis may not consider reclaiming Doma and Ala Mhigo worth the effort. I agree that there is a lot of potential for propaganda surrounding Zenos' death, but potential is just that and nothing more. It would be a lie to say we killed him, however.

The main thing people were afraid of was dying trying to win their freedom, or worse, failing to win that freedom and being put into even more repressive conditions than before. It was won; now independence needs to be defended if the Empire tries to take it away once more. (Again, the Domans and Ala Mhigans are more interested in rebuilding their shattered lives and homes than further aggression against the Empire. The ball is in the Empire's court; if it wants to make peace, now is the time.)

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Originally Posted by Theodric

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I disagree. While Varis does seem to be a practical man, nothing has yet suggested he will have a change of heart. On the contrary, for the time being his brief conversation with Elidibus suggests to me that he will work with Mr. White in an effort to preserve Garlemald and Garlemald alone in the compressed world. He is a ruler after all, and rulers are typically concerned with the good of their own people first and foremost. The rest of the world will, as per typical, be written off as a necessary sacrifice. Whatever it is he intends to do, we'll need to stop Varis - possibly with the help of a Larsa figure. (Once again, nobody wants to engage the Empire in further aggression for the moment.)

If he survives, then Varis can pull a Rufus. Based on the information we have right now, that's my speculation on how things are going to play out. (I'm probably wrong, though.)

Imperial inepititude seems to be getting overdone, however, now with Zenos gone. Think about it from a thematic perspective: the most intimidating person the empire currently had spent little effort taking victory and all but set everything up for his defeat from the get go, from letting important insurgents live, to wrecking his own installations, all so that he could have a cool fight. His use of Shinryu hadn't even the slightest hint of strategy towards defeating his opponents, he literally used it on the first thing people would turn to in countering it.

Time and again we see the garleans round up a bunch of machina under their command, and get trounced whenever anyone with a name shows up against them, Gyr Abania and Yanxia, and eorzea is LITTERED with the wreckage of airships and machina, some still burning! And the shooting against Estinien to no sell whatsoever is just, *throws hands*...they're not a threat, they are less than human. They are window dressing to be put down and destroyed. We are literally shown nothing except things justifying a long lasting and irrational hatred for anything related to them.