Yep well I mean you have to make do when you're bottomed out on TP. Switching to single target when you're bottomed out is the only real thing to do but the thing about that is - you shouldn't be..Quote:
Originally Posted by Noshpan
In DR:ex runs where both of us are using AoE, stuff should honestly be dying before it gets to that point. The only real time you're bottomed out is when the other DPS is doing single target.
This is because BRD has changed, and Paeon isn't the Paeon you remember.. It is more of a "stance" now, and effects skillspeed based on procs/stacks.Quote:
The number of times I've seen Bards use Paeon since Stormblood's launch is 0. Hell, they rarely play songs, so I guess at least they're keeping that stereotype alive, I guess.
However they have "Tactician" as a role skill now that is basically an old Paeon that doesn't require MP to use, and also lowers the caster's enmity.
You're more than welcome to move right along, but it has improved the knowledge of one reader at least. That to me is a success.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayer2015
Of course no one will ever improve the entire community's skill level or playstyle. However encouraging good play will at least change the minds of some, and some is better than staying silent and cowering in a corner.
People don't improve if everyone that has something to say stays quiet.
My goal isn't to go on some crazy overhaul and change the opinions of the entire community. My goal is to try and encourage a few people to play a little better.
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08-19-2017, 10:26 PMAltena
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08-20-2017, 03:09 AMAdamFyiExactly! I'm just pointing out that there are exceptions, but it's very rarely the case anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by JunseiKei
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08-20-2017, 10:08 AMhynaku
I know my smn sure doesn't have many attacks that hit more than one monster at a time and that can keep on using that doesn't have cd to them.
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08-20-2017, 12:43 PMKacho_NachoLooking at what you have at your disposal, I don't know whether to be jealous of, or to feel sorry for, you summoners. Holy crow! So many freaking abilities...Quote:
Originally Posted by hynaku
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08-20-2017, 03:28 PMLunaFayeI find quite often RDM's that can't find any of their aoe skills, or don't ever use the melee abilities (single/aoe), any elemental skills, hell if I find one that actually deals some damage, I am happy for that day. You would think, that people can't screw up playing RDM, but yes they can. That's also why they can't use or find Enchanted Moulinet and sadly it's the new trend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestama
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08-22-2017, 07:17 AMLalaRuWell, as long as I am in a PUG, I know I need to deal with whatever comes. Apart the regen thing of the OP, I usually start duty with a "mid" sized pull, I mean, something that can be aoe'd but even if single target'd, the healer is fine anyway, and then will take measure of what the group is capable of, looking at how that pull is killed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho
If everything melts instantly, it is a green flag for max possible pulls and the opposite, as mobs dying slower than Violetta, means single pulls. -
08-22-2017, 10:34 AMJim_BerryQuote:
Originally Posted by Celef
I'll have to find the source, but there were people who tested it with a NIN and MNK in party with 3 mobs. They killed the mobs faster with single target mostly than they did AoE. The only AoE I remember seeing was NIN's Doton. This was before Stormblood, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaer
What's funny is, when I use Enchanted Moulinet on three or more mobs, I had people say bad things. I ignored them.Quote:
Originally Posted by LunaFaye
Kinda sucky when your co-DPS partner is a melee DPS and does not have Goad slotted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noshpan
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08-22-2017, 10:39 AMSicariusSeven
I do the AOE skills but if I'm low on TP and I just used my invigorate on a previous pull, then I do single target stuff. Though the nice thing about SAM is I can do some single target attacks and build up to my AOE skills. Same with MNK!
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08-22-2017, 10:52 AMSuperZay
If you run out of TP with Invigorate then second dps is bad and/or tank and healer don't AOE attack.
And it's not only about dps players.
I did over 2000 Mentor roulettes, and 90% of paladins, even lv70 ones, have no idea they have an awesome new AOE skill, because it was ninja added at lv46 and it's not on their hotbar. So they will have full TP the whole dungeon untill you mention it.
Two new jobs almost never use limit breaks, because, once again, it's not on their hotbar, but there's useless auto-attack button by default for some reason. You would think that RDM will want to kill these 6-8 mobs faster with limit break? Nope, better spam single-target Jolt on them, what's Scatter, there was no use for it in PotD. -
08-22-2017, 11:27 AMtechnole
I hated when leveling up both MCH/BRD after burning TP/MP regen skills that i'd be still running low on TP because the other red DPS is just plain bad. I can surely handle my end of the bargain.
Most of the time I had to haggle melee to give me goad, if they even slotted it. The ones who gave it to me without a word always got my comm, and they usually put up decent damage. So it goes hand-in-hand that players who know their skill set generally try pretty hard compared to some lazy player that only knows how to hit 3 buttons and doesn't care about their cross-roles to help other players.
I also ran into a low-class PLD that didn't know the level 46 skill, told em about it so they can keep damage and aggro on AoE packs because i kept pulling aggro using my Bard AoEs, and then tried to tell me I should be single targeting everything. I was like you should be listening to a player who has every tank at 60+ and actually tanked everything in the game up to SB. I got this dungeon in-prog as DPS, and now i know why, but I decided to leave. No penalty for leaving in-prog instances.
Doing really good damage in this game can be toxic. It's sad. -
08-22-2017, 12:44 PMCharismaI'm sorry, but that is total BS, 5 minutes is way closer to reality than 15 minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altena
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08-22-2017, 05:13 PMArtemizUse it liberally, especially on WAR and PLD. They can get through TP like you wouldn't believe. The more TP I have the more I will use, so if you give me more with Goad I will use it. On a typical ex-roulette run on PLD I will run out of TP at least 2-3 times unless the DPS is really strong or I'm rationing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noshpan
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08-22-2017, 08:26 PMBourne_EndeavorFor single, three mob pulls? It will easily add upwards of fifteen minutes or more. I have had Xelphatol runs take as little as seven minutes when everyone knows what they're doing while just an idle healer can add those five minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charisma
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08-22-2017, 09:28 PMRiceisNiceQuote:
Originally Posted by technole
Total Eclipse doesn't have a enmity modifier though, but that still doesn't excuse a PLD from not holding aggro against a BRD of all things. -
08-22-2017, 11:52 PMtechnole
Still, Total Eclipse is a monumental change because it hits everything compared having to wait for CoS cooldown at any level, or changing your targets. Basically they just using flash and focusing one mob, but a Flash, CoS and TE one or twice is all you need nowadays with the Oath buffs.
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08-22-2017, 11:55 PMbswpaytonmaybe we should make a community wide macro to get this clear to paladins that still sit there and focus on one add and ignore TE with a full tp bard makes no sense at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by technole
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08-23-2017, 12:11 AMAvatreI admit to not using TE often when I was leveling my PLD, mostly because of where I put it on my skill bar which I will need to fix at some point. I'm just used to using Flash 3-4x, then going with RA combo with each hit landing on a different enemy.Quote:
Originally Posted by bswpayton
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08-23-2017, 04:41 AMKeikunTheres a lot of fifferent ways to play, stop asking people to play your way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altena
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08-23-2017, 05:02 AMFoxyArekuActually, no, there isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikun
"Playing a different way" is just an excuse for being stubborn or lazy. The classes aren't so diverse in this game that there are multiple optimal rotations sadly, and there is literally no excuse to use single target abilities when there are 4+ enemies other than 'not feeling like it'-which if you are in a party with other players, I would hope you would have enough respect for them to not cave in to such a silly reason. -
08-23-2017, 05:15 AMKeikunTheres no way people should follow the "if you start playing yesterday you should know how to do perfect dps and defeat the most diffcult bosses in the game"Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyAreku
You dont do perfect dps, why are you complaining about others? no one in this thread do perfect DPS but they still complain about others, so ironic. =) -
08-23-2017, 06:34 AMtechnole
Yep, you just basically type in-chat that you acknowledge the player isn't playing to up-to-snuff or snubbing the group. It's on record for a GM log to see you tried to get them on the same page, so it wouldn't be an abuse.
But play style differences isn't limited to low DPS. Can be simple things like killing the eggs in a AV party that wanted to let them hatch for XP is an-example of "okay to kick' behavior. The majority wanted them to hatch but one player decides to go against them.
Another thing is a lot of people in this game seem to think everyone is solo queued, when they really have no idea that they might be the only one that is the solo , so they try to be really bad and get a bit dumbfounded when it's 3-vs-1. Basically it's in your best interests to try to get along with the group, put some effort, and don't be that solo tantrum person. -
08-23-2017, 08:29 AMYeol
If you are running out of TP after using Invigorate then your dps buddy is not doing his job properly.
When I notice dps not using AoE I type into the party chat using Auto-Translate the AoE abilities of their job.
BRD {Quick Nock} {Rain of Death}
I also ran into dps who said that their AoE is not worth using /facepalm -
08-23-2017, 11:30 AMKyri
tbh, I miss solo groups. It's silly to make a dungeon that you grab everything and run off. All the work that goes into it is lost for the sake of saving 5 minutes. tempers are heated because someone isn't rushing. I might aoe because I can but I for one welcomed the walls that block people from doing this nearly as easily. I've watched people try a dungeon for the first time on rdm and sam and get yelled at and told they are "bots" because why they don't know it well? they don't know the rotation yet? The people that this stuff greatly upsets should make PF groups, no problem you're good to go and you know you have speed runners. In fact this is common so if it upsets you this bad your monk or drg pr nin is hitting one thing at a time and enjoying the dungeon, do yourself a favor and those in DF and pf your speed runs if you're only interested in a speed run and let those of us who are okay with either way play in df and have fun!
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08-23-2017, 01:03 PMSelovaIts also silly to make demands of the majority of players in DF to form their own groups in pf because there are a select few people out there that enjoy this bizarre playstyle choices. Running the same dungeon for the 300th time in the span of a expansion cycle single targeting every single mob in a dungeon every. single. time. is not a enjoyable experience and no kind of twisted weird logic could convince me otherwise. The fact is, players with these incredibly odd playstyles are in the minority and are a hindrance and detriment in groups where the desired goal is,to complete the dungeon/raid in a timely manner because people have varying time constraints and other things to do. If anyone should be using pf for group content, its these types of players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyri
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08-24-2017, 01:38 AMKyriPerhaps, but i think its silly that people always seem to feel they are the majority vote just because they scream the loudest. If the majority wanted fast and all pulls likely SE wouldn't have put those walls up. I honestly doubt the angry loud voices who constantly make demands like these and are looking for active ways to kick slower people from "Duty finder" rather then do like the real majority of players like this who spam "Party finder" for "speed runs" are the majority. They just want to be because they yell the loudest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Selova
Been playing this game since 2010 and the people who rush everything are also the people who rush to get off un sub and come back for patches. Not all mind you, but quite a few... quite a few. and I miss a lot of these people when they are gone too. So no, though I have no real problem rushing a dungeon and aoeing to get out of a boring party, my true fun comes from the DF that chit chats and has fun together even at the course of a few mistakes.
Also demands? Go look at your PF, im always joining speed runs when im in the mood to do so. This isnt making a demand its saying if this is a big problem for you(perhaps you only have hr or two to play, it's a perfectly legit reason) to join your type in PF, because im sure they would like to get a move on too and not wait around to fill any more then fight one group at a time. This is what people are doing to combat it, trying to fight that and come here to talk about kicking low players is absurd and childish. Do what the people who dont want to waste time do, they started that, they wernt forced, they do it because it's smart and lets them avoid "scrubs" as it were. -
08-24-2017, 01:48 AMGreedaloxBut the walls contain 2-3 packs which completely nulls that point. The walls would be 1 pack each if SE was enforcing what you'reQuote:
Originally Posted by Kyri
Implying. -
08-24-2017, 01:59 AMilea
Don't know if it's been said, but to add my 2 cents:
Sometimes, as melee, using my AoE rotation is just frustrating. A prime example of this is when a tank won't stop shuffling the mobs -- not to get out of AoEs and readjust, but simply turning or running back and forth. DRG's AoE (at 60, anyway) is Geirskogul, a line AoE, and a GCD attack... which is a line AoE. If you can't keep the trash still long enough for my AoE to work, I'm not going to use it. It would literally be faster for me to burn down an enemy at a time.
Secondly: I think a lot of melee DPS just don't think they're supposed to AoE. As soon as I hit 60 on DRG, I thought BotD was my priority, and their AoE GCD doesn't proc anything to extend BotD's timer. So I single-targeted for a while there, thinking it was better. I can't speak for the other melee jobs, but if their 50/60 rotation is focused around single target, a person might prioritise that because they don't know. -
08-24-2017, 02:02 AMKyriOriginally there was none, I feel 1-3 packs is actually pretty okay. and a lot less stresful for those who are still learning to tank and have tank anxiety. If the best way to a group peace is compromise in my opinion mind you, groups of 2-3 seems a more fair compromise then trying to throw a wall up on every set and the best way the game developers could say "Hey this is our vision but both side a and side b we hear you and want to find the best solution to make you both happy." It's my take on a lot of speed runners taking it to PF(and sometimes even I join these groups. I do know how to speed run and I do love blowing things up as a blm! I just take most of my fun from ffxiv from the people and encounters with new people) is just a great way to ensure they get to rush the content and fit in as many as they can in the short timeframe they have to work with at that time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedalox
I do not shun these people who want to go fast and PF, I think they are smart. Like walling 2-3 I feel the people who take speed runs to pf are equally trying to compromise for a system everyone can enjoy and a less guilt ridden feel if they have to kick someone for being slow in a "Speed run pf" vs a random person in a df that leaves them feeling mixtures of anger, frustration or guilt for kicking someone just because they were learning. In a way to me its no different then spending weeks learning to do a raid, getting good at it and only joining pf's that are to the same expectations. Its not condeming to say "Make or join a pf for speedruns" its saying "do yourself a favor, if it is likely to give you a headache to have to deal with people like that today, maybe you only have2 hr till reset or work, who knows, try pf, don't get held back because you can be selective.
I enjoy the people and though I do advocate for PF a speed run if slower players upset you or keep you from meeting your goals.I play like... 3-5 characters and slow doesn't always get my caps in. I might enjoy helping new players and taking my time in df but thats why I only que that way if I have time to be in the moment with the party and perhaps have good, abeit slower, time. -
08-24-2017, 02:19 AMFoxyArekuSeems you completely misunderstood what I said, because what I said wasn't even remotely close to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikun
No one expects perfection, we expect people to not make blatantly stupid ability choices when the situation clearly doesn't call for it-especially when we ask them to do otherwise.
For example-doing the single target rotation on a black mage when there's 4 or 5 enemies pulled all at full health. This is stupid. Use Fire 2/thunder IV/Foul instead. If you think simply using a different ability that would be much more effective for the situation 'requires perfection', I'm not sure what to say to you. -
08-24-2017, 02:37 AMMaero
So people who play their job how it is mean't to and have the higher dps are elitist now?
Alrighty....
All mellee dps now have at least 2 forms to get tp back, so what exactly is the excuse not to aoe larger stacks of enemies?
And even worst would be an example that Foxy gave if a blm does not aoe, well clearly they do not know how the job functions -
08-24-2017, 02:54 AMInterceptor
I do it a lot of times just to work on my single target rotation. Especially if there's already a heavy AOE damage job in my group.
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08-24-2017, 03:51 AMtechnole
I always found a pattern to this. It's always the lower-end players that call out people for being elitist.
Giving advice on how to play a job more optimal isn't being elitist, it's actually learning to be more beneficial to everyone. You may remember one key point about your job and that could change your experience for the better in the game.
You'd be surprised to learn that higher-end players don't actually give that kind of flack in-return to learning to play better, in-fact many want to learn more from players they consider good. -
08-24-2017, 04:01 AMileaTo be honest, I only just got DRG to level 62. :P So this is new info to me. TIL!Quote:
Originally Posted by Altena
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08-24-2017, 08:23 AMNestamaSo you're making the other DPS do all the work?Quote:
Originally Posted by Interceptor
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08-24-2017, 10:06 AMJunseiKeiUh? I don't recall for NIN, but MNK does Rockbreaker at two enemies. Last I checked, 130*2 is better than 170 on one. You don't Arm of the Destroyer unless there was at least four. Howling Fist is oGCD. Unsure if that is still the case for 4.0, but that's what it was for all of Heavensward. What's probably not factored in with these tests ('cause you can't really see unless they publish how they tested it) is if they did straight AoE (again, MNK does Arm at 4+) and no DoTs (which they should still be doing at 3) or using single target, placing DoTs on multiple enemies. Considering three mobs was already putting MNK at less-than-efficient AoEing, it doesn't surprise me that single target killing three mobs was faster. This was already known and published in [good] guides.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_Berry
There's correct testing and testing done badly. Not even accounting for sample size and the factoring of crits (which is a HUGE thing to account for on NIN especially- crit Doton is a huge AoE boon). -
08-24-2017, 10:10 AMJybrilDo it on bosses, not mobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Interceptor
Who literally tries to do a perfect rotation on a mob lmao...XD -
08-24-2017, 11:24 AMAltenaMy previous post got deleted for something unrelated (I believe) to what I said in a reply to you, so I will say it again..Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyri
This thread is not about speed, or players that would prefer "a slower run".
Nor is it about players who don't want to do a single-pack run.
This thread is not about whether people should pull groups or do singles in a dungeon.. I don't think anyone here is really complaining about that so much..
This is about a DPS adjusting to what the tank pulls.
If a tank has more than 4 mobs on them, then all DPS jobs should be using their AoE skills. End of story.
Tanks run out of buffs.
Healers run out of buffs & MP.
Not killing the mobs fast enough because 1 or both of the DPS decide they want to practice their single target rotation, or do not believe in using AoE for some reason or another is only putting excess stress on the tank and healer.
The tank is the player who sets the pace of a dungeon.
If the tank decides to pull 10 mobs, then the DPS should be adjusting to this and using AoE skills.
If they are only pulling a single pack, then DPS should generally be doing single target at 3 or less (varies depending on job).
There is literally no argument for the counter here.
Again, I will highlight the point for clarity.
It's not about whether you want to do a speed run or a slow run - it's about adjusting to the rest of your party and performing your job as a DPS, depending on how many mobs are in play.
That is what striking dummies, the dungeon bosses, and Stone, Sky, Sea is for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Interceptor
When there are 4 or more mobs, you should be using AoE skills.
You're literally causing the other 3 players in your party unnecessary stress.