Where are all the healers?

That's kinda hyperbole from Muppeting the meta. AST and SCH don't have as high numbers as a WHM but people see "not as great=garbage" Just because it's not as high doesn't equate to not worth doing.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

A better correction is probably AST/SCH DPS is terrible, or at least, AST is. You have to play very aggressively to get decent DPS numbers as AST. I haven't leveled SCH to 70 yet but I hear things aren't too great over there.

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Sch dps suffers for various reasons. Most of their dps spells are dots and if they don't get enough time to tick before a mob dies, that's some dps down the drain. To spread dots they need to use an aetherflow stack but the sch in question may want to save them for healing instead, especially if the tank chain pulls. Finally sch mana efficiency is by far the worst among all the healers so sometimes they have to hold back their dps to make sure they have enough mana for healing.

I feel like the Job as a healer was very very easy at the end of HW. So so all the AFK-er and Leecher went to play Healer it seemed.
4.0 brought more responsibility to us. So, as I think, these kind of players were frighten away.

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Originally Posted by SerosJourney

4.0 brought more responsibility to us.

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Aside from more frequent and more difficult chain pulling now that sprint no longer uses tp, I don't really see how we have extra responsibility in 4.0. It's not as if chain pulling is a thing in raid content.

As a main scholar I think my main issue is how I've been treated since SB dropped in? I still heal but since the server move my ping increased to 270 making it super frustrating to run content when peple don't know what they're doing. Add how dps tend to blame me when the die for avoidable damage/running away from my heals/standing in attacks that one shot and you can get a general idea why I usually prefer t run with friends than pugs.

Add the whole "healers adjust" attitude of some parties, how some 'tanks' jumped to 60 and have legit NO IDEA of what they're doing and you can see why my patience sometimes run thin. And okay- I'm not saying 'all tanks' or 'al dps' but I've had a ridicolous amount of bad pugs and PF since the expansion dropped. I still heal because that's what I love the most but between the things I listed and the fat that my main lost a lot and we STILL have "I will noct ast even with scholars" astrologians I know I've become less adventurous.

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Originally Posted by Tiva

Make sure you are using other resources other than what you mentioned to look for players. If you aren't, then that may be why you can't find any. The methods you listed are the least efficient and most annoying ways to find reps/findgroups. Join the recruitment discord for your data center and make sure you post weekly on the recruitment reddit. I've never found a rep using the pf. It has never happened. We repped about 5 of our members last tier and found them all through discord/reddit. It can also be hard if you have weird raid times. Standard raids are run tues/wed/thurs (or some slight variation of that) in the evening. If you raid on weekends or you raid during the day or too early, you will have trouble finding reps and may need to consider changing your raid times. Best of luck.

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Thank you. We have been using both the data center and server specific discord channels. We have managed to find multiple temp players, but many already have statics or too inconsistent of a work schedule. We've manage to find a few consistent pugs who we rotate each week depending on availability but would really like to find something more permanent. We typically raid tues/wed/thurs 5p to 8p pst. Have managed to clear Os3 and now starting to work on Os4

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

That's kinda hyperbole from Muppeting the meta. AST and SCH don't have as high numbers as a WHM but people see "not as great=garbage" Just because it's not as high doesn't equate to not worth doing.

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No, but whereas WHM can handily out DPS an actual DPS class, AST/SCH are going to have a much, much harder time doing that, so when people talk about "healer DPS can save so much time in a dungeon" they're probably really referring to how much time a WHM in particular can save.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

No, but whereas WHM can handily out DPS an actual DPS class, AST/SCH are going to have a much, much harder time doing that, so when people talk about "healer DPS can save so much time in a dungeon" they're probably really referring to how much time a WHM in particular can save.

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WHM AoE is indeed quite good, especially with Thin Air to sustain more Holy casts, but SCH and AST are by no means weak in that department. AST's biggest drawback is comparatively poor single-target damage, but if you're skilled and play as aggressively as the situation reasonably allows, you can still contribute a significant amount of personal damage even outside of AoE situations, especially if we're talking about something like a dungeon boss fight, which tends to have low healing requirements unless everyone else plays very badly.

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Originally Posted by technole

It apparently does! We all know putting up your only DoT as an AST is extremely hard for those lazy people who just like to stand there doing nothing.

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Just to reminder you, deliver damage is a DPS job, not healer's. If the DPS needs that healers also deliver damage to get the clear, they need to learn properly their rotation.

Remember, the healer DPS is a plus. A bonus. If the party is not dealing enough damage and the monsters is not dying fast enough, is on DPS, not on healer.

That "non-dpsing shaming" is why there is less healers around. If I will be obligated to DPS, i will want also a red tag, not a green one.

I only heal for savage raids or when I need a fast queue to get something for one of my other Jobs. For the most part, healing is just way too easy (in savage, people tend to screw up really often so you get to RP as a god casting your divine favor on hapless souls and punishing the fiends). WHM and AST in particular are broken OP, to the point that it feels like the game was designed for 8-man groups to have 1 healer, not 2. I spend more time DPSing than I do healing, and I dunno if you've played WHM lately, but its DPS repertoire is not particularly thrilling. I have literally fallen asleep spamming Stone in dungeons and trials.

Healing is so braindead that I feel I make more of a contribution by laying down the big DPS than by playing therapist, topping off skittish tanks who Hallowed at 95% HP. Half of them just spam Clemency on themselves anyway, and every group is 100% guaranteed to have a RDM whose Vercure can do 75% of the healing of my Cure, so why do I need to be there?

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

Just to reminder you, deliver damage is a DPS job, not healer's. If the DPS needs that healers also deliver damage to get the clear, they need to learn properly their rotation.

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Just to remind you, there are fights in this game where healer DPS is required to clear (right now at least OS3 and OS4) even when all DDs and tanks are performing optimally.

Also, doing DPS is part of healers' job in this game. They have the abilities, they have plenty of time to use them (on normal runs in every content), so they should use them.

That said, just yesterday I did point out to DDs in Susano normal that they should go check their rotations again since they managed to fail the fight's DPS check twice while having 2 (very good!) healers helping out with DPS (I was a tank holding the sword).

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Originally Posted by Taika

That said, just yesterday I did point out to DDs in Susano normal that they should go check their rotations again since they managed to fail the fight's DPS check twice while having 2 (very good!) healers helping out with DPS (I was a tank holding the sword).

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I feel like a lot of that is due to people buying the jump potions. I like the idea of people being able to use them to catch up to friends, but if you're going to go that route, at least take the time to learn the job. Can't expect to do that and be awesome at it, ya know?

As for healer dps... just do it. Provided your team doesn't completely suck on every aspect, you should have plenty of time and ability to throw some dots out at least. Definitely don't expect healers to be topping any dps charts, but every little bit helps.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Just to remind you, there are fights in this game where healer DPS is required to clear (right now at least OS3 and OS4) even when all DDs and tanks are performing optimally.

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There seems to be a misconception here. No fight is required for a healer to dps, SE had clarify this a bunch of times. So the inability of clearing those raids do not fall on healers shoulder unless not enough healing is going out.

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Originally Posted by Myrhn

There seems to be a misconception here. No fight is required for a healer to dps, SE had clarify this a bunch of times. So the inability of clearing those raids do not fall on healers shoulder unless not enough healing is going out.

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It's a misconception born from some ill-fitting mechanics. As it stands right now, damaging mechanics can be relatively easily healed up, and there is a lot of down time between raid damage and tank busters. This means that healers have a tendency to have nothing to do but to throw DPS out. A lot of people have misconstrued this as healers HAVE to throw out DPS.

Also, it's a misconception born form the mentality of "WE HAVE TO KILL BOSS BEFORE EVERYONE ELSE". SE does not take healer DPS into consideration when devising their raid encounters, but healers are DPSing, regardless of whether or not SE wants them to. This means higher damage going out, which in turn means boss kills come much sooner. The entire mentality for progression raiding is to get gear up to a level where you can take down a boss, but now it's how much DPS can healers and tanks throw in to get the boss down sooner.

There are two fixes to this misconception: either SE has to increase outgoing damage to the raid, making healers spend less time throwing out DPS, or they need to tune encounters around a minimum amount of healer DPS. Personally, I prefer the former over the latter.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

.There are two fixes to this misconception: either SE has to increase outgoing damage to the raid, making healers spend less time throwing out DPS, or they need to tune encounters around a minimum amount of healer DPS. Personally, I prefer the former over the latter.

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I am against both. If they implement the latter then they will turn down the damage output because they would HAVE to give healers free time to DPS. This would make us even more of a Green DPS than people already think we are.

The former is also bad because it raises the skill cap even further on raid/savage content. non-overgeared parties don't see healers having time to do anything but heal. We can get a DPS spell, usually an instant DOT, here or there but they really do through out a good deal of damage for healers and tanks that have not got the gear from those exact same fights.

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Originally Posted by Myrhn

There seems to be a misconception here. No fight is required for a healer to dps, SE had clarify this a bunch of times.

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The fights are designed to be cleared without healer DPS only (1) after the party is over the item level that is available to them when the fights are added to the game (so current Savage fights aren't designed to be beaten right now, for example) and, even at that point, (2) when all DDs and tanks are doing at least 85-90% of their optimal DPS (while the non-dpsing healers are pulling way less than 50% optimal performance...). So it's extremely misleading to claim the fights are very much clearable without any healer DPS. Even Yoshi directly said that healer DPS is needed when the fights are added to the game.

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Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers.

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Source: https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125732-Game-Watch-Translation-Yoshida-Interview-on-Heavensward-%28EU-Media-Event-5-19%29

And when you have a group where your DDs and tanks aren't god-tier, you will need that healer DPS even after you've gained some item levels. And if your DDs and tanks would happen to be god-tier, it's not very likely they're letting the healers just slack and perform way below that 50% while the DDs and tanks are hitting those super high numbers. I mean, you can try to say you're expecting your tanks and DDs to be in the top 5% of FFlogs while you're in the bottom 5% and call that fair, but I don't think you'd get very far with that. :)

Why are people derailing the thread so hard though..

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Originally Posted by Jxnibbles

Why are people derailing the thread so hard though..

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Because the hardcore healer DPS crowd apparently can't stand people playing the game differently than them.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

Because the hardcore healer DPS crowd apparently can't stand people playing the game differently than them.

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Corrected that for you.

It's pretty telling about the negative perception towards healers when you run the risk of being kicked as either playing as either a pro-DPS and no-DPS healer given how polarizing the issue is - which in turn leads to healers not wanting to play healers anymore because they could face animosity at any given moment if they are playing in a way deemed unbecoming from their fellow party members and thus risk rude comments or outright kicks from content.

I feel players from both camps need to understand healer's have a pretty diverse style of play and they should probably learn to be more respectful towards their fellow healing peers else the dev's may just force the issue.

This thread got derailed so hard to a Healer dps thread.. We literally have a Healer dps thread on page one of this forum.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I feel players from both camps need to understand healer's have a pretty diverse style of play

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Unfortunately, this game doesn't really allow multiple effective play styles for any job. You can't really choose to be a healer who only heals any more than you can choose to be a pacifist PLD (only uses flash, provokes and defensive cooldowns), a pure DPS WAR, a pure DPS BRD or an ice mage. You can't even choose a class over a job. Of course you can choose to play however you want when you're solo, but in group content people tend to expect you to play your job in a way that's known to be the most effective (this doesn't mean you're expected to perform super well but that you're expected to follow the common play style for that job). I also don't think it's unfair to expect your team members to try to play their jobs in a way that's the most beneficial for the team (again, not expecting optimal performance, just effort to be helpful).

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

which in turn leads to healers not wanting to play healers anymore because they could face animosity at any given moment if they are playing in a way deemed unbecoming from their fellow party members and thus risk rude comments or outright kicks from content.

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Being a healer can be stressful at times and a big reason is there are many different ideas as to what players think a healer should do.

Playing a healer is sometimes like this:

We heal too much, we heal too little, we dps too much, we don't dps enough, Eos isn't the right fairy, Selene isn't the right fairy, some dps expect us to know their stat weights so asts buff them correctly, other dps don't mind what buff they get as long as it helps their dps, whms should use the aoe dot on bosses because it's extra dps, whms shouldn't use the aoe dot on bosses as it's a gcd wasted that could have been used for Stone IV...and so on

Every role has its pros and cons. Not saying only healers suffer. But the fact that the requirements of their role are not set in stone leaves them open to unwarranted and often very unnecessary criticism.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Unfortunately, this game doesn't really allow multiple effective play styles for any job. You can't really choose to be a healer who only heals any more than you can choose to be a pacifist PLD (only uses flash, provokes and defensive cooldowns), a pure DPS WAR, a pure DPS BRD or an ice mage. You can't even choose a class over a job. Of course you can choose to play however you want when you're solo, but in group content people tend to expect you to play your job in a way that's known to be the most effective (this doesn't mean you're expected to perform super well but that you're expected to follow the common play style for that job). I also don't think it's unfair to expect your team members to try to play their jobs in a way that's the most beneficial for the team (again, not expecting optimal performance, just effort to be helpful).

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To me, it's less about the fact that no-DPS healers are not efficient or effective and more about the fact that disparaging comments towards no-DPS players (and likewise towards pro-DPS players) leads to healers just wanting to not play healer.

A no-DPS healer, who's still fulfilling their primary role, is still performing to the point where you're completing the duty. You're not completing it to the speed at which you could if you had a pro-DPS player but you're still completing the duty and thus "not failing" and this is the metric we should be gauging baseline performance on.

I'm not saying you, the person I'm replying to is doing this, but by claiming no-DPS healers are bad, terrible, need to be kicked just leads to people not wanting to play the class if they risk running into animosity like that. That's why we're running into a lack of healers - either healers just don't want to heal anymore or they're just healing with their friends to avoid this animosity, leaving to a lower overall PuG pool to work with.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I feel players from both camps need to understand healer's have a pretty diverse style of play and they should probably learn to be more respectful towards their fellow healing peers else the dev's may just force the issue.

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This. Every healer has their own comfortable style of play, which can vary not only between people but also with which job they play. Instead of brow beating the community into conforming to a specific meta that hardly matters to anything besides cutting edge progression, we as healers should instead focus on ourselves and develop our own healing style and respect the styles of others provided content is cleared and people stay alive. In my mind, when I dps as a healer, if I do (depending on the group and the content), it's a bonus to contribute to the group, not a necessity. If this expands to require the devs attention and they make changes because of it, I almost guarantee no one will like it.

All of this nonsense is entirely caused by how healing works in this game and the nature of how players take damage.

If players took damage in XIV like they do in other MMOs, healers would be too busy healing for anyone to complain about them not DPSing enough. Instead, healers do more DPSing than healing, which clouds the hell out of the issue as to what exactly healers should or shouldn't be doing. This sort of thing shouldn't fall into a grey area and yet that's exactly what has happened to it.

I mentioned it earlier in this thread but I'll say it again: I traded my globe for a gun a few weeks back and I've never been happier (my fiancee mains PLD so I get instant queues regardless).

If I'm going to spend most of my time DPSing anyway, I may as well be doing it on a class with a fun rotation...

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

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I think all jobs should share the same baseline: try to be as active as possible and use your each gcd in a way that's most beneficial to your group. What you're proposing is "if you cleared the duty, you did well enough". It means we shouldn't only accept healers who refuse to use a part of their abilities and only need to use one skill every minute or so (in worst case), but also the pacifist tanks (assuming they just keep hate) and BRDs who refuse to give MP or TP and just spam heavy shot (pretty sure you can clear a dungeon like that). But somehow people only ever defend this kind of a "playstyle choice" for healers.

I'm sure there are healers who are turning away from the role because they feel it brings too much pressure. But same is true for tanks and DDs. In this thread, I think people have been mostly giving a different reason, such as not finding the job as engaging to play anymore.

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Originally Posted by Jxnibbles

This thread got derailed so hard to a Healer dps thread.. We literally have a Healer dps thread on page one of this forum.

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On this forum, Godwin's Law applies to Healer DPS. There's just enough developer comments, content issues, and design ambiguity to ensure an endless argument, and so many tanks and DPS players love talking about it that it inevitably winds up coming up everywhere.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Snip.

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I think you're grossly oversimplifying how healers work, and gave a bad example to boot. If I run an AST I don't just Benefic - I use shields/regen, Cards, Time Dilation, Celestial Opposition, Collective, Essential Dignity, and primarily use Earthly Star as a healing backup in case things go wrong. Way more than one button, and fun because of it. Astros have three buttons for dps in comparison. And sometimes I can go through a whole dungeon not touching those buttons because I'm busy using all the rest. Are you seriously comparing a healer using all but three buttons to a Bard only using heavy shot or a tank that only Flashes (or it's equivalent)? There's something off with your logic if so.

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Originally Posted by Taika

But somehow people only ever defend this kind of a "playstyle choice" for healers.

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The playstyle "choice" you're describing is the trepidation surrounding possibly spending too much of your mana on DPS when you don't know when the other people in your party may suddenly have a tremendous attack of the stupids and get hit by literally everything avoidable for the next 30 seconds.

It's still a very real concern. I've personally had it happen where the group SEEMED competent, didn't take any avoidable damage, then suddenly everyone stood in f**king everything when I had been DPSing the entire time and I went OOM as a result.

Nothing short of actual psychic powers is going to allow healers to know for certain if they're going to need to conserve their mana for healing or not, which is why this "playstyle" exists and why I'm sure more and more people opt out of healing.

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I'm sure there are healers who are turning away from the role because they feel it brings too much pressure. But same is true for tanks and DDs.

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Tanks, sure, but DDs?! Are you serious right now...?

This game is a terribad DPS player's PARADISE. Not only are there no DPS meters so no one can see how terrible you are, but even the smallest parties have 2 DPS so if the DPS seems low, no one can even know to blame you unless you spend 80% of the fight standing in the bad.

Hell, just look at what's going on in these forums alone: people like YOU are more likely to blame the healer for not DPSing instead of blaming awful DPS for being awful. :P

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

Tanks, sure, but DDs?! Are you serious right now...?

Hell, just look at what's going on in these forums alone: people like YOU are more likely to blame the healer for not DPSing instead of blaming awful DPS for being awful. :P

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People like ME expect similar level of contribution from each team member no matter which job they're playing, and right on the previous page of this thread I told how only yesterday I had called out DDs who were carried by healers in Susano normal.

Since parsers and logs are commonly used, there is pressure on DDs as well, and in a recent healer DPS discussion there were people claiming all DDs should pull at least 4k DPS in OS2, for example (while the BRD dummy requires around 3,5k I think :D).

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Originally Posted by Destatiredux

And sometimes I can go through a whole dungeon not touching those buttons because I'm busy using all the rest.

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Too busy for an entire dungeon to throw a dot? Really? I just looked back at my last expert, Temple of the fist, the tank double pulled trash packs. I threw 191 offensive casts including Assize. If I can manage 191, I'm sure you can manage 1 ;)

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

I've personally had it happen where the group SEEMED competent, didn't take any avoidable damage, then suddenly everyone stood in f**king everything when I had been DPSing the entire time and I went OOM as a result.

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Oh look, another silly faux example. Try 'sitting in literally everything avoidable' for 30 seconds and let me know how that works for you. Here's a hint, you'll likely be dead irrespective of how much MP the healer had long before those 30 seconds are up. I've certainly learnt first hand that for levelling dungeons or large pulls in Expert, throwing a GCD heal on a DPS (Be it them eating avoidable aoes or even just pulling multiple mobs off an under geared tank) is by far the most common cause of wipes that I've experienced in SB dungeons.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

Hell, just look at what's going on in these forums alone: people like YOU are more likely to blame the healer for not DPSing instead of blaming awful DPS for being awful. :P

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Way to get salty just because they don't share your views, that's some high class postage right there son =/ Evy's got a pretty balanced opinion on the whole healer DPS thing IMHO and I've seen plenty of people on here that take a far harder stance on both sides of the argument.

Also note that whilst a terribad DPS player can usually fly under the radar for the bulk of the casual content out there, they will likely get called out or at the very least, get 'tactfully spoken to' once they start tackling Savage.

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Originally Posted by Taika

People like ME expect similar level of contribution from each team member no matter which job they're playing

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Right on time and absolutely agreed. To say I expect DPS is missing the boat. What I look for is a good dose of effort combined with healthy motivation alongside a desire for improvement. I have all the time in the world for the player that shows those qualities.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

Instead, healers do more DPSing than healing

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Fun fact of the evening: My NeoExdeath opener has me hitting 15000 HPS (Not a typo, overhealing deducted) during the first minute of the fight. It's not that we aren't healing, but rather we are healing too quickly or high incoming damage isn't sustained over a long enough period to run us out of oGCDs and CDs. It'll be very telling to see how super savage addresses this. I really do hope it's not just a case of more mechanics and DPS checks =(

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

That's why we're running into a lack of healers - either healers just don't want to heal anymore or they're just healing with their friends to avoid this animosity, leaving to a lower overall PuG pool to work with.

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Personally I think the DPS aspect of it is overplayed and overstated, I just don't see it outside of Savage (Ironically the only occurrence that springs to mind is when I got yelled at for DPSing too much in Baelsar's wall after a couple of comical wipes on Mr Sloppy).

First up, we have two new DPS jobs that are both fun and iconic, that's going to be a pretty significant hit right there.

Secondly, many of the levelling dungeons are a huge shock to the system coming from the last few waves of level 60 dungeons we've had. Trash hits hard and gates are both fewer and further between. Any healer used to being able to wobble along behind the group throwing a few dots and heals without having to pay much attention is in for a pretty horrible scare. Healing most certainly isn't the path of least resistance like it used to be.

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Originally Posted by Destatiredux

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Sure, you're using your healing skills actively (you should use ES on each pull though :)), but you can get by with much less. In HW I healed an expert without casting a single cure spell during pulls (only used regens, tetra, assize and asylum - can't remember if I used bene even once) and ended up being completely inactive for 83% of the dungeon (no one died). I once had a SCH who admitted to just /following tank while drinking coffee while the fairy did all the healing. When my partner was leveling AST, I watched him only heal with ED through entire dungeons. Truth is, in many cases, if you're only healing, and know how to use your abilities, you're either being inactive for significant amounts of time, or overhealing a lot. And you wouldn't promote that kind of play style (inactivity / spamming useless skills) for any other role.

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Originally Posted by Pyrii

Healing in groups with my friends because I'm sick and tired of suicide/hero/compensation tanks. Because I actually like playing the game.

I finally am getting used to WHM changes in Stormblood, the DPS simplification is nice since I don't want to be thinking about doing DPS between heals.

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Same with me, I usually just play with friends. Currently leveling AST (WHM is 70) then leveling some DPS classes. So if I do get into Omega/EX it won't be for a little while. Also, I get sick of the "DPS! DPS! DPS!" mentality.

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Originally Posted by Taika

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ES is something I use every pull whether I want to or not, given the current norm of speed pulling no matter what dungeon or level you're at. :P My point is, healing (really healing, using all your support tools as often or as necessary; not fairy alt tabs) is more complicated than he made it sound, and his comparison was ridiculous. I do throw out a Combust or a Malefic on bosses or a Gravity on the (sweet glorious) rare occasion I have a tank that doesn't pull wall to wall. But I can honestly say that maybe 2 of every 10 pulls I've experienced do it that way, and that's where my perception of "Sometimes I'll never hit those buttons at all" comes from. Comparing an active healer that buffs the party while keeping the party alive to a bard that spams only Heavy Shot was kinda insulting too. :b

This is why we can't have nice things.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

Nothing short of actual psychic powers is going to allow healers to know for certain if they're going to need to conserve their mana for healing or not, which is why this "playstyle" exists and why I'm sure more and more people opt out of healing.

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...

What.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Way to get salty just because they don't share your views

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Naw, Taika has always been a huge proponent of the "healers need to DPS or you're failing the group" movement.

I'm in the camp of "if a healer doesn't feel comfortable spending their mana on DPS at that time, no one should tell them otherwise".

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Ft's not that we aren't healing, but rather we are healing too quickly or high incoming damage isn't sustained over a long enough period to run us out of oGCDs and CDs.

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I've said on at least 3 occasions outside of this thread that the problem with healing is that we can basically top off the entire raid in 2-3 GCDs, then go immediately back to DPSing.

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It'll be very telling to see how super savage addresses this. I really do hope it's not just a case of more mechanics and DPS checks =(

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What else would it be, exactly?

The whole thing basically NEEDS to pan out like this: savage = healer DPS isn't factored into balancing. SSavage = healer DPS is most DEFINITELY factored into balancing.

Hate to disappoint you in advance, but there's really nothing else they CAN do to make SSavage not a joke, aside from emphasizing the piss out of the gear-check side of things.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

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What.

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Because you cannot know with 100% certainty that a group that has been playing extremely well for the entire dungeon will suddenly start getting hit by mechanics they seemed to previously have an easy time avoiding.

If you've been churning out DPS as a healer (as everyone and their mother in this thread expects you to do), the sudden and unexpected additional mana expenditure can run you OOM.

If it couldn't, then there would be NO risk to healer DPS whatsoever, which many people have ALSO said would be a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by Taika

I think all jobs should share the same baseline: try to be as active as possible and use your each gcd in a way that's most beneficial to your group. What you're proposing is "if you cleared the duty, you did well enough". It means we shouldn't only accept healers who refuse to use a part of their abilities and only need to use one skill every minute or so (in worst case), but also the pacifist tanks (assuming they just keep hate) and BRDs who refuse to give MP or TP and just spam heavy shot (pretty sure you can clear a dungeon like that). But somehow people only ever defend this kind of a "playstyle choice" for healers.

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I disagree in essence that you can't possible have everyone have the same "GCD uptime" or rather APM uptime. Just look between all the DPS and how many DPS have heavy oGCD usages and thus have a higher APM versus those DPS without a lot of oGCDs to use. Equal APM management from every single job would be impossible to design for. Even if you compare healer GCDs required between healers some healers will need to use less or more GCDs depending on their kit. Thus expecting an equal level of "busyness" from every job let alone every player would be impossible.

If I do end up with a low APM player, I'll just shrug, carry the duty to the end, then just blacklist them so I don't have to deal with them in the future for any content where I might want a higher skill level player. Otherwise I'm not gonna make a stink of bad players.

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Originally Posted by Taika

I'm sure there are healers who are turning away from the role because they feel it brings too much pressure. But same is true for tanks and DDs. In this thread, I think people have been mostly giving a different reason, such as not finding the job as engaging to play anymore.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Personally I think the DPS aspect of it is overplayed and overstated, I just don't see it outside of Savage (Ironically the only occurrence that springs to mind is when I got yelled at for DPSing too much in Baelsar's wall after a couple of comical wipes on Mr Sloppy).

First up, we have two new DPS jobs that are both fun and iconic, that's going to be a pretty significant hit right there.

Secondly, many of the levelling dungeons are a huge shock to the system coming from the last few waves of level 60 dungeons we've had. Trash hits hard and gates are both fewer and further between. Any healer used to being able to wobble along behind the group throwing a few dots and heals without having to pay much attention is in for a pretty horrible scare. Healing most certainly isn't the path of least resistance like it used to be.

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I don't disagree that there are more factors that has made healer's less played but it would also doing a disservice to think that some players are just out right discouraged about playing a healer when they don't know if they're going to run into an elitest ass who takes insult to how they play healer because "you don't pay my sub".

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

It'll be very telling to see how super savage addresses this. I really do hope it's not just a case of more mechanics and DPS checks =(

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I'm personally hoping Super Savage forces a min ilvl so S-E can tune the fights for an exact gear score and thus build potent mechanical, DPS, and healing checks into these fights.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

All of this nonsense is entirely caused by how healing works in this game and the nature of how players take damage.

If players took damage in XIV like they do in other MMOs, healers would be too busy healing for anyone to complain about them not DPSing enough..

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Which would turn healing into whack-a-mole and after doing it for so long in WoW I can tell you it can get very dull. More damage doesn't automatically mean more fun or challenging. It's far more interesting for healers to deal with mechanics than just straight up constant damage.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

Instead, healers do more DPSing than healing

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I really wonder where this is coming from and I see it being said so often. Yea this happens at low lvl but those are training dungeons so we shouldn't expect a healing challenge there. On higher lvl dungeons it's very common, especially now that sprint doesn't use tp, for tanks to chain pull and that rarely leaves room for healer dps to outpace hps. Only in 4 man bosses do I sometimes feel I do more dps than healing. But if I'm with a new or just unskilled group it's the opposite. And in lvl 70 8-man content I rarely feel like I'm doing more dps than healing. Even os1 savage which is known for not being very challenging demands enough healing for healers to be pumping out hps far more than dps.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

Naw, Taika has always been a huge proponent of the "healers need to DPS or you're failing the group" movement.

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Aww it's so sweet you know me so well! Oh wait... I'm a huge proponent of "all party members should try to be as helpful to their party as possible", and I'm very understanding to varying situations, skill levels, and other circumstances. When I meet a healer who doesn't DPS, I encourage them to try (really, I say something like "don't be afraid to use your DPS abilities too!" or "could you please try putting up some DoTs when no one is in any danger"). If a healer tries, just a little, I appreciate that. If they tell me they are inexperienced and very nervous about healing or doing that content for the first time, I let it be. The only ones I have any issue with are the ones who simply refuse to co-operate out of a ridiculous principle that "it's not their job" or "I don't play their sub". And I deal the same way with players of other jobs whom I notice not really using a lot of what's available to them (like healer DPS spells, I will ask for Requiem and MP/TP from BRDs, Goad from melees, offer advice with rotations to DDs in general, point out when tanks could be using their skills better during a pull etc.). But I never do any of this in an unfriendly manner, and I definitely never blindly kick my team members.

This is the significant difference: I don't really care how much DPS you do or even if you do it on each pull, I care if you're open for the possibility to do it when you're comfortable with it, instead of flat out refusing to be helpful to your party because you don't have to. If this makes me a human monster in your eyes, then so be it. :)

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I disagree in essence that you can't possible have everyone have the same "GCD uptime" or rather APM uptime. Just look between all the DPS and how many DPS have heavy oGCD usages and thus have a higher APM versus those DPS without a lot of oGCDs to use. Equal APM management from every single job would be impossible to design for. Even if you compare healer GCDs required between healers some healers will need to use less or more GCDs depending on their kit. Thus expecting an equal level of "busyness" from every job let alone every player would be impossible.

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That's not what I meant, of course there are differences in APM between jobs, and you can't require a BLM to have as many APM as a BRD, that would be absurd. I simply meant that all party members should try to be as active and effective as possible: to do something useful for their group whenever they're able to instead of refraining from doing so. Like back in HW when I once did an expert run where I only healed just to try it, I was only active for 17% of the whole dungeon, while all my other party members were active for at least 70% of it. That's a huge gap that I could have been able to fill if I had chosen to be useful instead of doing /mandervilledance and /idlecam. :P

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I don't disagree that there are more factors that has made healer's less played but it would also doing a disservice to think that some players are just out right discouraged about playing a healer when they don't know if they're going to run into an elitest ass who takes insult to how they play healer

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There are also tanks and DDs who are afraid of joining DF because they're afraid of the feedback they would get. This is not an issue limited to certain role, but it is an issue. Luckily it's also something we all can affect by using our own behaviour to make the DF a friendly and encouraging place at least when we're running with it. :)

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Originally Posted by Destatiredux

My point is, healing (really healing, using all your support tools as often or as necessary; not fairy alt tabs) is more complicated than he made it sound, and his comparison was ridiculous. I do throw out a Combust or a Malefic on bosses or a Gravity on the (sweet glorious) rare occasion I have a tank that doesn't pull wall to wall. But I can honestly say that maybe 2 of every 10 pulls I've experienced do it that way, and that's where my perception of "Sometimes I'll never hit those buttons at all" comes from. Comparing an active healer that buffs the party while keeping the party alive to a bard that spams only Heavy Shot was kinda insulting too. :b

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If you're really being active with only healing, while you are using your skills correctly and not doing ridiculous amounts of overhealing, I don't think anyone at all would have any issue with that ever or call that bad healer play. Like said, there are varying levels of skill, comfortability and other circumstances that affect each healer's play. I really do understand if a healer, especially one new to the job, can feel busy with only healing even in current expert dungeons with huge pulls, even if I never have personally experienced that. It's the situations where almost no healing (or literally no healing, like certain phases in certain fights) is required, and the healer chooses to stay idle instead of helping their party, that people are calling out.