Why is StormBlood full of dps that never aoe?

As my own SAM AoE rotation says: Hakaze -> Jinpu -> Gekko -> Meikyo Shisui -> Oka -> Hagakure -> Mangetsu+Kyuten -> Oka+Kaiten -> Tenka Goken+Kyuten!

I'm sure I'm doing a lot of AoE DPS there. :P

Really, my only tip to SAM players is to be creative. If TP runs out you can always use Invigorate ;)

There are some classes that might focus more on single target. Or, has a priority target as well. Really it shouldn't be too big of a deal as long as the DPS are doing sufficient damage, whether it's to AoE, or take down one target at a time.

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Originally Posted by Xehmnus

I typically AoE as much as I can. TP drops below 50% and the mobs have plenty of health left, I pop invigorate. If the same happens again, I hope someone uses goad on me (which never happens but that's a different topic)

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I know how you feel, man. I Goad DPS. I Goad tanks.

Why can't I get any Goad love?!

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

I always AoE, but it depends on the circumstances. As a Samurai, AoEing two-three targets produces higher damage, of course, even with Invigorate (no one in dungeons seems to Goad but me), my AoE abilities bleed my TP dry in no time, so I'm usually forced to stop at one point and switch to single target so I can actually still attack.

@Nowakii: That was a conscientious change by SE because they wanted to keep people from just pulling masses of enemies and burning them down. It hasn't stopped anyone from doing it, as mob pack size is determined more by tank/healer than by DPS. It just makes it slower to do.

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I think that's fine, it's just the main complaint is seeing them do single target with full TP bars. Having to go to single target due to running out of resource is a good reason to do so.

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Originally Posted by White_Wolf_X

Because SE took away my wide volley and i hate using quick nock.


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...house-meme.jpg

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This.

Bard is my main DPS and I love what they did with the job in the new expansion, but just kinda sucks when the tank big pulls. We could really need some good AOE skills on bard... just AOE skills.. don't fuck up my job again, SE. Thanks!

Healers have the best aoes anyways

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

I know how you feel, man. I Goad DPS. I Goad tanks.

Why can't I get any Goad love?!

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I feel like it's an issue where people queue with whatever cross role skills they use while solo and are too lazy to switch anything once they get into a dungeon. Not that I'm trying to excuse them.

I AoE like I'm supposed to, but I hate every minute of it. It doesn't really matter what job I play, I still find AoE boring and clunky in comparison to single target. The only job where I have remotely enjoyed AoEing has been NIN, but that's not even my main class. MCH is my main, and I absolutely can't stand all the Spread Shot spam.

The 70 BLM AoE rotation isn't bad at all, x2 Flare + Foul + Thunder IV (even better with thundercloud proc). That's not the entire rotation but it isn't hard.

AoE GCDs are seriously boring. I wouldn't complain at all if they took away spammable AoEs and gave us more interesting mechanics to replace the one button we lose, lol. Offensive CD? AoE oGCD? Nonspammable AoE GCD like Tekka are fine, but spamming GCD AoE is something people do when half AFK and talking to someone else.

If there needs to be a job with spammable AoE, leave it to the spell casters/tanks because those actually make sense.

I like how asking people to use the AoE skills they were given for a reason turned into "well dungeon trash is boring anyway!"

If it's boring, use your AoE to clear it faster. Or better yet, go do any of the content that doesn't require you to use your AoE skills. Y'all are doing the absolute most to justify not playing decently, because most of the players I see who don't AoE on trash also don't perform their single target rotation very well.

Aoe is only bad for like DRG and MCH every other class should be using aoe although as a nin I will not use death blossom (just the toad and fire) that ish does no dmg lol but I firmly believe in aoes unless you are those two classes because you will kill vastly slower lol...BLM aoe isn't that great till like 58ish until then you have a very weak fire 2, thunder IV if it procs and flare if you feeling adventurous haha

Wow some of the excuses. No wonder SE has to continually dumb this game down. TP cost? Burn to 200 tp and go single target. If everyone is AOEing you should be seeing mobs drop so the single target rotation is becoming more optimal anyway. Every melee should be carrying goad but people are dumb, and brds/mch should have tp regen. What exactly are you saving you tp for anyway? Should have invigorate anyway and that comes off cooldown about every other pack.

Damage? It's a dps gain on 3 or more targets for pretty much any class.

I just don't get it, it doesn't take that much thought to figure out aoes.

I think SMN is still good with AOE, but our AOE depends on if bane is up or not, I notice mobs die a lot faster when I have bane available. If you are struggling to clear something perhaps work with your group on them saving AOE spells when you are in a trash heavy section so maybe their DPS isnt as high as it could be for certain fights but you wont have as many in between longer mob pulls over all.

Like I know if i see that we have a string of mobs I wont spam my aether n go into dreadwyrm right away, I will save my aether to bane again on next mob, bc if you are moving fast then it cant always come off CD fast enough.

But I am a new player and not 70 yet so just my 2 cents.

EDIT~
And while yes I realize I can individually put my DoTs on the other peices of trash, its not nearly as fast as just hitting bane then using Ruin for direct damage to make them die faster.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

Also SE said they want us to stop doing big pulls, ever notice how the mobs hit alot harder now?

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Obviously not hard enough, because double pulls even in leveling dungeons are still very viable, and there's almost always enough time to throw some damage as a healer as well. Or maybe WHM is just that OP for normal dungeons.

If only casters could use goad... or benefit from it.... now that I've started carrying goad I'm always paired with a caster...

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

If only casters could use goad... or benefit from it.... now that I've started carrying goad I'm always paired with a caster...

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Paladins and warriors need goad occasionally too, and you can always swap to something else if they aren't using their tp at all. Can even make macros for different cross-role actions.

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Originally Posted by Aethaeryn

Paladins and warriors need goad occasionally too, and you can always swap to something else if they aren't using their tp at all. Can even make macros for different cross-role actions.

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This doesn't address the issues with melee tp and aoes... tanks pulling door to door makes aoes just eat up tp with minimal damage to the mobs... tanks need to pull smaller to make aoes effective enough to justify the tp usage...

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

This doesn't address the issues with melee tp and aoes... tanks pulling door to door makes aoes just eat up tp with minimal damage to the mobs... tanks need to pull smaller to make aoes effective enough to justify the tp usage...

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What? That doesn't make any sense. Your AoEs do more damage the more mobs there are, and the more mobs you kill at the same time, the more efficient it is.

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

This doesn't address the issues with melee tp and aoes... tanks pulling door to door makes aoes just eat up tp with minimal damage to the mobs... tanks need to pull smaller to make aoes effective enough to justify the tp usage...

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Hottest take in the thread right here folks.

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

This doesn't address the issues with melee tp and aoes... tanks pulling door to door makes aoes just eat up tp with minimal damage to the mobs... tanks need to pull smaller to make aoes effective enough to justify the tp usage...

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I find this is only true if my partner DPS in the dungeon is really having trouble grasping AoE rotations as a TP user. I've had many groups where competent DPS can destroy door to door packs without ever even using invigorate. The decaying damage on packs is capped, so the different between 5 or more monsters is moot. There's never really a reason to go OOT unless your partner has the mindset of single targetting large pulls- which case it's up to your tank to make a judgement call on how to proceed with the pulls at that point.

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

This doesn't address the issues with melee tp and aoes... tanks pulling door to door makes aoes just eat up tp with minimal damage to the mobs... tanks need to pull smaller to make aoes effective enough to justify the tp usage...

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But it doesn't. In fact, the bigger the pulls the more time dps have to recoup tp between pulls. Some places even 2 packs is enough for melee to get 700-800 back.

Honestly, it's frustrating as all hell to see the lack of AoE from DPS in SB.
I've Tanked/Healed content and so often I find when there is 4+ targets but AoE is ignored, I just get frustrated to all hell. I know some classes are better in the AoE department than others but I highly doubt that you are so handicapped that you can't AoE at all. I've not touched my DRG or MCH much as of SB (both are only 61 ATM) but you better believe I still AoE as much as I can, when I can because it still trumps Single Target once enough enemies are getting hit to justify them, and MCH has an AoE turrent to help further so really I fail to see any justification.

I think its heavily tied to mechanic screens telling them they are supposed to be doing combos. In 4.05, at least DRG got an AoE combo that generated BotD. Would had been better for the game if instead of adding lots of crazy abilities and weird mechanics, they simply added more AoE rotations (at least for melee jobs.) Having 5 step single target combos as DRG is nice, but would be also fun if we got a 3 step AoE combo (imagine they never took out Ring of Thorns, and instead we had a Doom Spike > Ring of Thorns > Sonic Thrust combo.)

Spamming the same ability over and over is not engaging.

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Originally Posted by Ogulbuk

Having 5 step single target combos as DRG is nice, but would be also fun if we got a 3 step AoE combo (imagine they never took out Ring of Thorns, and instead we had a Doom Spike > Ring of Thorns > Sonic Thrust combo.

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Then we'd have people spamming AoE on single target fights, which would be so much worse. Nothing worthwhile needs AoE so they should really just cut off physical dps AoE.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Then we'd have people spamming AoE on single target fights, which would be so much worse. Nothing worthwhile needs AoE so they should really just cut off physical dps AoE.

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We have very different definitions of "worthwhile." I find fighting a single monster in an instance with no other enemies, while avoiding floor paint to be the least worthwhile of activities in this game.

Only the hardcore players spend lots of time doing savage raids and extreme primals. The bulk of the community progresses doing dungeons and farming for tomes at best. This means dungeons, and multi-enemy spawns. AoE is extremely important, and the reason this thread exist to begin with.

As a Bard, I love doing AOE with multidotting. Just keep in mind I'll probably be DoTting targets first, then start using my AOE skills when I go into Mage's Ballad or Army's Peon, I have Tactician and Invigorate so TP isn't too much of an issue, I pop Tatician if I'm with a melee that does AOE as well. If they don't bother I'll Invigorate ;) I also Tactician if the tank is burning TP as well.

I tend to be sad when a tank doesn't want to pull more than 3 mobs.

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Originally Posted by Ogulbuk

The bulk of the community progresses doing dungeons and farming for tomes at best. This means dungeons, and multi-enemy spawns. AoE is extremely important, and the reason this thread exist to begin with.

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Fair enough. I prefer keeping up my rotation and burning targets fast as opposed to the Diablo mind set of yoink everything and mash AoE. If I want actually meaningful AoE, I'll play Diablo because that means burning down crowds ASAP for bonuses. There's no worth for me to spamming AoE in this game when there's no reason to beyond saving 30 seconds, which is negligible at best.

If you only save 30 seconds by pack pulling, the black mage is doing it wrong.

I love to AoE on MNK, maybe they should consider changing one ilm punch to hundred fists and have that a conal aoe or something.

The amount of people defending their refusal to AoE is completely bonkers. If both DPS in a dungeon know their AoE rotation and execute it, huge packs of enemies melt extremely quickly. There's zero excuse not to AoE 3+ mobs. I mained MNK in 2.0/HW, and SAM in SB -- I know how melee TP classes operate, and it's never been a problem to use my AoE's. When your TP is low ofc you should revert to your single target rotation but it's moronic to completely forgo AoE out of some fear you'll run out of your resource. It's higher damage (which is your job as a DPS, by the way) , plain and simple.

I only AoE when theres 4+ mobs, otherwise im losing out on potency big time as RDM and gaining far less mana.

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Originally Posted by Gwendolen

I only AoE when theres 4+ mobs, otherwise im losing out on potency big time as RDM and gaining far less mana.

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You should AoE already at 3 targets because:

Single target:
-9.5 mana / GCD
-288.75 potency / GCD

Scatter spam @ 3 targets:
-8.5 mana / GCD
-300 potency / GCD

Mixed Scatter + Verthunder/Veraero @ 3 targets:
-9.75 mana / GCD
-300 potency / GCD

Unless my math is off, it's pretty late.

This is probably the only community where a debate over whether 100 x 3 is better than 250 x 1 can reach 16 pages.

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Originally Posted by eschaton

People will hold on to their believes like flat earthers it seems :)

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Yeah this thread is really interesting... I assumed people going slow just didn't know any better, but now there's people denying that the potency numbers have meaning or just knowingly doing less damage because it's more fun to them. Personally I don't mind how anyone plays as long as they don't harass or go full afk on purpose to be carried when they should be helping, but yeah it's just interesting to see these opinions on play styles.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

You should AoE already at 3 targets because:

Single target:
-9.5 mana / GCD
-288.75 potency / GCD

Scatter spam @ 3 targets:
-8.5 mana / GCD
-300 potency / GCD

Unless my math is off, it's pretty late.
Mixed Scatter + Verthunder/Veraero @ 3 targets:
-9.75 mana / GCD
-300 potency / GCD

Unless my math is off, it's pretty late.

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At 3 targets, that last one is what you do.

I aoe as a RDM, but at 4+ targets it's so bloody boring. Spam scatter until your soul dies. I have snuck in some single target goodness occasionally to fend off brain atrophy.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

Yeah this thread is really interesting... I assumed people going slow just didn't know any better, but now there's people denying that the potency numbers have meaning or just knowingly doing less damage because it's more fun to them.

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I've seen people repeatedly deny math in mmos. Not simply being unable to do the math but outright denying the math presented to them. I've been in games where stat allocation mattered, been able to show through the game's formulas that one build is superior to another and people just come back and say "oh well whatever, this other build just feels better to me." This game never truly had, nor does it still have mitigation tanking, but in games that do try to tell tanks that mitigation is superior to max hp and just watch the pushback. It's kind of incredible watching people deny the math of games.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ears_Toxic.png

People. Calm down. Kindly suggest it in a dungeon and move along. If they refuse, then oh the hell well. You can't force someone not interested to play the way you want them to or push them outside their comfort zone.

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Originally Posted by Clethoria

People. Calm down. Kindly suggest it in a dungeon and move along. If they refuse, then oh the hell well. You can't force someone not interested to play the way you want them to or push them outside their comfort zone.

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I always do find it interesting how backwards things are in mmos. An mmo by nature is a cooperative game(even in a pvp mmo you still have a team you cooperate with). A cooperative venture suggests that you play in a way that most benefits the team. Yet take a player who forces the team to play worse, forces everyone on the team to play their way, refuses to help the team, and if you point this out you see "oh man how toxic of you, how dare you try to make them play your way, you monster."

I've never understood why in a cooperative and team based game that expecting people to play cooperatively and on a team is some huge imposition.

When I play BLM I always want to AOE. Thunder IV, double and triple Flares and Fouls are just way too yummy.