Stop rewarding tanks/healers! We all put in the same effort.

These aren't rewards for us, they're incentives to stop us from queuing with 3 friends and telling everyone in the public queue to get lost, the former being extremely easy for many of us to do when we're so much in demand. I don't queue roulettes anymore, I'm capped on verity and own everything I could want. However if there is something else of probably benefit to me, then yes, I'll start queueing them again.

Let's not forget that while damage-dealing jobs certainly don't deserve extra rewards (for a litany of reasons given in previous posts), healers and tanks shouldn't be receiving them either.

It's long past time for SE to stop fixing their screw-ups via bribery. They arrogantly created two new DPS-role jobs with Stormblood, ignoring the blatantly obvious queue problem it would create. They implemented half-assed combat changes in 4.0 that greatly altered the feel of tanks and healers, often for the worse. They still, to this day, design dungeons in a way that allows for play-style conflict (large speed-run pulls vs. slow and steady pulls, which places unnecessary strain and uncertainty on healers and tanks). And, as with Heavensward, they neglected to address the root cause of their queue times: their original flawed estimate that ~25% would play tanks, ~25% healers, and ~50% damage-dealers. The 4-person party setup needs to be a 5-6 person party (as with FFXI *coughs*), but SE has stubbornly refused to revisit this.

So why, exactly, are we as players seemingly ignoring this? Why are we simply wanting the various roles to receive equal stuff? I'm all for a rough level of equality, but let's focus on the real problem: we need solutions that put DD, tanks, and healers on equal footing, not equal levels of bribery.

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Originally Posted by Vespar

This applies mostly to tanks, but on occasion healers.
Some of us generally dislike the way tank and healer roles play. I dont think its fair to constantly reward those roles with bonus items (ie: cracked clusters, mounts, gil,etc.)

They already have various rewards at their disposal. They do not need MORE. If anything, DPS deserve MORE. We're the ones that have to sit through outrageously long queue times and we put in the exact same amount of time and effort (if not more) than any other role in the duty.

In the interest of fairness, start making some rewards for DPS or stop doing this.

(To the posters after me, flame away, I'll not be reading the remainder of this thread as it is personal feedback and my piece has been said.)

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The point of posting on the forums is to have a discussion. Next time just use the in-game suggestion feature and save us all some time.

I don't think the reason people don't stay as tanks or healers has anything to do with how fun the role plays in terms of actual play style. I think it's more down to us, the community, who throw flame at a tank if they loose agro for even a second or at a healer if they miss just 1 heal. I started ARR as healer main but after the salt I received in a particularly challenging Garuda run I vowed never to play again. We are to blame not SE

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Originally Posted by Indefiinable

I don't think the reason people don't stay as tanks or healers has anything to do with how fun the role plays in terms of actual play style. I think it's more down to us, the community, who throw flame at a tank if they loose agro for even a second or at a healer if they miss just 1 heal. I started ARR as healer main but after the salt I received in a particularly challenging Garuda run I vowed never to play again. We are to blame not SE

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I disagree that it has nothing to do with it. I think it's both, to be quite honest. If DPS is more fun and gets less criticism, that's double the incentive to play DPS.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

I disagree that it has nothing to do with it. I think it's both, to be quite honest. If DPS is more fun and gets less criticism, that's double the incentive to play DPS.

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I think the issue is what appeals to players as a healer or tank just doesn't appeal to the average player. If they changed healers to have full blown DPS rotations and complicate the entire kit that made me take my eyes off the fight and tunnel vision (Like playing DPS), I would be out immediately. However, that stuff is normally what I hear DPS players tell me makes them WANT to play DPS (The very thing thaat makes me hate it).

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

I think the issue is what appeals to players as a healer or tank just doesn't appeal to the average player. If they changed healers to have full blown DPS rotations and complicate the entire kit that made me take my eyes off the fight and tunnel vision (Like playing DPS), I would be out immediately. However, that stuff is normally what I hear DPS players tell me makes them WANT to play DPS (The very thing thaat makes me hate it).

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Well, I agree that probably wouldn't work for healers. However, I think it would work for tanks since due to their nature tanks are constantly attacking anyways. The weird thing about FFXIV is that tanks don't have to do an optimized rotation to hold aggro, compared to other MMOs as stated here.

But I think you have a point. One of the thing that appeals to me as a tank is I'm the one soaking the hits so everyone else can do their job. But I think a tank can have a learning curve and difficulty in doing that, rather than the passive mitigation FFXIV currently has.

For a Light Party, we need 2 dps 1 tank 1 healer. Since healers and tanks are a minority, I'm ok with these incentives. We got 2 news dps jobs and that's the price to pay, which is totally acceptable.
It's Sophia's law, Balance! :)

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Originally Posted by Syfurion

'We all put in the same effort!'
-sideways glance at the dragoon who stood in front of the cleaving boss with B4B active-
I mean, I guess that's true, the floor is looking pretty spotless.

Yes, this is snark. No, I don't regret it.

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He likely did this because of how shitty his class is now

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Originally Posted by Vespar

If anything, DPS deserve MORE. We're the ones that have to sit through outrageously long queue times and we put in the exact same amount of time and effort (if not more) than any other role in the duty.

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I heal AND I DPS. I essentially play 2 roles at once and a miscalculation can end in a dead player.
Sorry, but I'd say that I do more than a DPS that just tunnel visions through the dungeon.

I agree that tank duties are overrated in dungeons (raids are a different matter though) b/c there aren't many mob abilities one has to account for in a "tanky" way. Tanking is basically DPSing with more aggro of the moves.

PS: DPS are rewarded too if they are in demand. I have seen it happen on off hours but it's rare.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

I agree that tank duties are overrated in dungeons (raids are a different matter though) b/c there aren't many mob abilities one has to account for in a "tanky" way. Tanking is basically DPSing with more aggro of the moves.

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If that were true, there would be as many tank as there are DPS. Thing is playing a tank is much more stressful than playing a DPS, especially in dungeons (and not so much in raid). Because as a tank it is you who is giving the tempo in a dungeon (group (deciding when to pull and how much, and handling huge packs if the team wants you to make big pulls).

As a DPS, you only have to follow, execute your single target/AOE rotation, without thinking too much.

That aside, I don't really care about tanks rewards or whatever, but I think if SE wanted to fix the issue then they d just do stuff like in wow and would give DPS some way to tank (with specializationq or whatever). Also, if you feel like there is a need for a' reward 'for you to play then you should ask yourself if you're trully having fun playing the game.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

If that were true, there would be as many tank as there are DPS. Thing is playing a tank is much more stressful than playing a DPS, especially in dungeons (and not so much in raid). Because as a tank it is you who is giving the tempo in a dungeon (group (deciding when to pull and how much, and handling huge packs if the team wants you to make big pulls).

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Maybe it's because I am a MMO veteran of 10 years but I have nearly all classes at 60, leveled primarily through dungeons. Tanking is NOT harder than DPSing. Tanking dungeons is braindead easy in this game.

Only Exception are a handful of pre 50 dungeons like Aurum Vale, where you cannot facepull the entire room. All other dungeons are essentially "pull everything up to the next door" if you healer isn't incompetent.
I love healing but I also play tanks. I really dislike playing DPS in FF-XIV because classes are convoluted and not fun to play.

The reason people don't play tanks is the stigma. They THINK that it is hard to do, when in reality I would argue that tanking is the easiest role of the 3. Esp if you are familiar with the dungeon already.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

Also, if you feel like there is a need for a' reward 'for you to play then you should ask yourself if you're trully having fun playing the game.

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Agreed.
Though sometimes you have the option of all 3 roles while feeling indifferent at the moment and the reward nudges you into a needed role.
THAT is the purpose. Not to convert non tank players into tanks "by force".

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Originally Posted by ZemusM

I have been playing a Tank for MANY years. You are the party leader regardless of what they want or think, you drive the party forward. Now my time being a tank in XIV personally has been nothing short of great, I can't recall the last time I ran into a verbally abusive player to be honest, It's been well over a year.

If they think you are slow, that is NOT YOUR PROBLEM, you go at the pace you are comfortable with and clear the content.

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Respectfully disagree. It is your job as a tank to pull as fluently and speedily as the group allows.
If DPS are crap -> slow down
If the healer can't cope or your gear is underlevel -> slow down
Else -> pull as fast and as hard as mana allows.

I HATE tanks that pulls small packs of trivial mobs and stutter step their way through the dungeon. Esp the stutter stepping, where you always ask "is he pulling now or isn't he?!"

As for abusive players: when I am tanking, players do not have time to write into chats. They are busy mashing buttons. :D

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

Also, if you feel like there is a need for a' reward 'for you to play then you should ask yourself if you're trully having fun playing the game.

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I can answer that immediately. I'm not having fun playing right now and feeling a lack of motivation of even getting PLD to 70. I feel like I'm spoiled by TERA, because I got a lot more fun and engagement out of tanking there. Of course there are reasons that I quit, such as there being no real end game. But I had to constantly pay attention to bosses, and it was fun taking 0 damage while also maximizing DPS to an extent while holding aggro (you can stack aggro mods or damage mods on your gear).

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Originally Posted by Granyala

The reason people don't play tanks is the stigma. They THINK that it is hard to do, when in reality I would argue that tanking is the easiest role of the 3. Esp if you are familiar with the dungeon already.

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I would say, mechanically tanks are very very easy, to the point it's boring. However, socially it can be stressful depending on the people you get partied up with (like abusive players).

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Originally Posted by Granyala

The reason people don't play tanks is the stigma. They THINK that it is hard to do, when in reality I would argue that tanking is the easiest role of the 3. Esp if you are familiar with the dungeon already.

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I disagree, but for a different reason - from my experience, tanks in this game aren't so much fighting the dungeon, they're usually fighting the screwups from the other players in the party. It's why I don't tank - my skill set makes me much more valuable as a healer or a Bard, where I can literally carry bad parties as either role, but a good tank cannot salvage a bad party no matter how hard they try.

And that, my friends, is the true reason why there's a low population of tanks in DF.

I'm actually tempted to suggest a non-conventional solution to the DPS queue problems = actually implement some kind of official parser, so that DPS players might be encouraged to switch if it turns out they're doing less damage than the tanks and healers, or improve themselves to rectify that issue. Right now, there's no in-game measurement to accurately see how well the DPS are doing in comparison to healing and tanking, besides the speed at which mobs are dying, but that could easily be one of the DPS being sub-par while the other happens to be godlike, or the tank and healer are putting in massive work. Because if there's one thing that doesn't get recognized at all, it's good DPS.

I don't know about other server right now , but in Elemental data center (Tonberry) the queue is getting nice and steady as a DPS , also this happen :

https://scontent-sin6-1.xx.fbcdn.net...f3&oe=59CB9B40

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

I would say, mechanically tanks are very very easy, to the point it's boring. However, socially it can be stressful depending on the people you get partied up with (like abusive players).

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True, same goes for healers. DPS players are generally shielded because
a) no individual statistics exist to judge performance (when I f*** up as a healer or tank people KNOW b/c usually someone dies)
b) hardly any responsibility in the first place due to encounter design. (raids excluded, seen plenty of special DPS "jobs" in my WoW raiding career)

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

I disagree, but for a different reason - from my experience, tanks in this game aren't so much fighting the dungeon, they're usually fighting the screwups from the other players in the party. It's why I don't tank - my skill set makes me much more valuable as a healer or a Bard, where I can literally carry bad parties as either role, but a good tank cannot salvage a bad party no matter how hard they try.

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And that it precisely why I love playing a healer, because contrary to WoWs neutered healing design, in FF I actually can compensate player fails.

The actual solution may lay in allowing more DPS enter thr same dungeon, i.e. raising the number of 4-man instances to 5 in order to squeeze in another DPS. The numbers can then be adjusted accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

I heal AND I DPS. I essentially play 2 roles at once and a miscalculation can end in a dead player.
Sorry, but I'd say that I do more than a DPS that just tunnel visions through the dungeon.
PS: DPS are rewarded too if they are in demand. I have seen it happen on off hours but it's rare.

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The same could be said of RDM's who spam dualcasted raise in dungeons. Adventurer in Need Bonus for DPS is so rare that I have only ever seen it maybe 5 or 6 times since I started ARR.
The point I was trying to make is more about them giving all these benefits but only to a select group of players. And I will hammer that point over and over again. If you give it to one, then you need to make it AS EQUALLY FAIR to all. The cracked cluster or w/e should just be a randomized drop to anyone who participated.

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Originally Posted by Vespar

The same could be said of RDM's who spam dualcasted raise in dungeons. Adventurer in Need Bonus for DPS is so rare that I have only ever seen it maybe 5 or 6 times since I started ARR.
The point I was trying to make is more about them giving all these benefits but only to a select group of players. And I will hammer that point over and over again. If you give it to one, then you need to make it AS EQUALLY FAIR to all. The cracked cluster or w/e should just be a randomized drop to anyone who participated.

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Or you could just roll a tank/heal for the adventurer in need bonus.

That bonus is there all the time, it's just not available for DPS most of the time because there are too many people rolling DPS. Help the queue out, be an adventurer in need, and you'll get the reward. It's not like you have to be on a different character(like other games), the cluster you earn while being a tank can be used for your DPS progress.

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Originally Posted by Vespar

The point I was trying to make is more about them giving all these benefits but only to a select group of players. And I will hammer that point over and over again. If you give it to one, then you need to make it AS EQUALLY FAIR to all. The cracked cluster or w/e should just be a randomized drop to anyone who participated.

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Roulette does not give rewards to all players equally because the amount of players playing each role isn't equal, which is why queue times are long.
The tomes you get = your participation reward. The bonus is a bribe.

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Originally Posted by Vespar

The same could be said of RDM's who spam dualcasted raise in dungeons. Adventurer in Need Bonus for DPS is so rare that I have only ever seen it maybe 5 or 6 times since I started ARR.
The point I was trying to make is more about them giving all these benefits but only to a select group of players. And I will hammer that point over and over again. If you give it to one, then you need to make it AS EQUALLY FAIR to all. The cracked cluster or w/e should just be a randomized drop to anyone who participated.

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Doing that is pointless. As many have explained countless times before, the Cracked Cluster reward is intended to help relieve queue times. Period. Giving it as a random award does not accomplish this; giving it to the role that is currently bottlenecking the queue times does. Your complaints therefore have absolutely no merit, as your objective (equality for all) is in no way related to the intended purpose of the mechanic.

To illustrate just how absurd your position is, I'll apply it to something else: crafters shouldn't get a monopoly on making items or furniture. Why should someone be penalized for playing combat classes rather than DoH classes? They're putting equal time into the same game, so why shouldn't they get the same rewards?

The only valid criticism of the Adventurer in Need bonus stems from the fact that it is tantamount to bribery, and as such has a tendency to mask underlying problems that SE is too lazy / incompetent to fix. Whining about fairness is pointless and wrongheaded.

Underlying problems that SE is incompetent to fix... I guess that they should just create NPC tanks and script them to supply for the demand.

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Originally Posted by Katsuragi_

Underlying problems that SE is incompetent to fix... I guess that they should just create NPC tank and script them to supply for the demand.

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Just finally give us our squadrons in dungeons...tank problem solved! Good thing I am not a fan of (4 man) dungeons - I only run them when I have to for the story or with my GF (for her story.)

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

The only valid criticism of the Adventurer in Need bonus stems from the fact that it is tantamount to bribery, and as such has a tendency to mask underlying problems that SE is too lazy / incompetent to fix. Whining about fairness is pointless and wrongheaded.

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Yep, my criticism is just that tanking is boring in this game outside optimizing your DPS and the bonus is just a carrot that masks this problem.

People actually give a rats about adventurer in need bonuses etc?

I mean, I played a tank for the majority of HW and personally never paid attention to it. It had literally 0% impact on whether or not I was going to play a tank to the duty or not.
The "reward" for tanks is the reduced queue time.

Furthermore, I haven't really had any issues with DPS queue times. It is about the same as it was before SB..

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Originally Posted by Altena

People actually give a rats about adventurer in need bonuses etc?

I mean, I played a tank for the majority of HW and personally never paid attention to it. It had literally 0% impact on whether or not I was going to play a tank to the duty or not.
The "reward" for tanks is the reduced queue time.

Furthermore, I haven't really had any issues with DPS queue times. It is about the same as it was before SB..

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While that might be true, however adventurer in need gets more exp, gil and now cracked clusters, making it a breeze to stack lots of them, without having to do the hunts etc. Guess some people might not care about the materia that the cracked cluster gives, but it's great if you wanna make some quick money, put some materia into alt/main gear and so on. In my case I don't see the problem, if somebody wants that cracked cluster, play the job that's in need. Otherwise there's a couple other ways of obtaining these, of course with more effort tho, but I mean you can't have it all.

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Originally Posted by LunaFaye

While that might be true, however adventurer in need gets more exp, gil and now cracked clusters, making it a breeze to stack lots of them, without having to do the hunts etc. Guess some people might not care about the materia that the cracked cluster gives, but it's great if you wanna make some quick money, put some materia into alt/main gear and so on. In my case I don't see the problem, if somebody wants that cracked cluster, play the job that's in need. Otherwise there's a couple other ways of obtaining these, of course with more effort tho, but I mean you can't have it all.

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"A breeze" is hardly the correct term.

I would much rather do a couple of A ranks while I do other things, rather than a 40 min levelling dungeon on a tank.

Though I am with you, I don't really care for the bonuses, but I am also not against rewarding the role that is scarce in the queue. I am just pointing out that if people are going to queue up as a tank, they are *generally* going to do it whether or not there is a bonus. I am just pointing this out - the adventurer in need bonuses are rarely incentive enough to queue for that reason. Perhaps the cluster might change that? If so, then I am for it.

I honestly don't get the complaint. Everyone gets Grade VI materia cheaper due to bigger influx, DPS get less wait time and Tanks/Healers get the materia free. Now if this will last for long, I can't say but for the time being as I level my DPS I am seeing much lower wait times. If you are upset you are not getting cracked clusters, then help solve the DPS wait time and go in as a Tank/Healer.

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Originally Posted by Vespar

The same could be said of RDM's who spam dualcasted raise in dungeons. Adventurer in Need Bonus for DPS is so rare that I have only ever seen it maybe 5 or 6 times since I started ARR.
The point I was trying to make is more about them giving all these benefits but only to a select group of players. And I will hammer that point over and over again. If you give it to one, then you need to make it AS EQUALLY FAIR to all. The cracked cluster or w/e should just be a randomized drop to anyone who participated.

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Your reward is a reduced queue time due to the additional tanks/healers queuing for the incentive. This is of course the entire point of the reward. There is nothing unfair about an overabundant role not receiving rewards for queuing. Nobody forced you to play DPS and be part of the problem.

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Originally Posted by Altena

"A breeze" is hardly the correct term.

I would much rather do a couple of A ranks while I do other things, rather than a 40 min levelling dungeon on a tank.

Though I am with you, I don't really care for the bonuses, but I am also not against rewarding the role that is scarce in the queue. I am just pointing out that if people are going to queue up as a tank, they are *generally* going to do it whether or not there is a bonus. I am just pointing this out - the adventurer in need bonuses are rarely incentive enough to queue for that reason. Perhaps the cluster might change that? If so, then I am for it.

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Yea you're right with that. I called it a breeze because, sometimes and I base that on personal experience, I get off work and don't wanna do hunts or don't have the time to do them. Specially when you're on servers that quickly kill them, right after they spawned. And again that's my own problem, therefore queue'ing quick for leveling roulette, and mostly getting dungeons like satasha, ifrit regular trial or any lower dungeon that doesn't take longer than 10 minutes, making it so much easier. Sure you're absolutely screwed if you get the higher dungeons that take 30+ minutes, I agree with you there lol. At least at the end of the week, when I have the time to play the game, I do have materia I can put in the actual class I wanted to play, or save them for the new upcoming raid tier.

I can see how it creates two problems here tho, one as we can see with the OP, he/she's upset because mostly there's no dps in need bonus, and feels that they should be rewarded too. My personal opinion as many others have pointed out are the same tho, play a non dps class if it's such a problem and you want the cluster.

On the other hand, and I noticed that lately, I end up with a lot of "bad" tanks/healers that just went into the dungeon because of the cluster, making it a absolute nightmare, and they will even say that they are not going to play that job, just want the bonus. So either way, while SE tried to make the dps queue's faster with that initiative, it also can back fire in situations as I just mentioned.

Either way the whole discussion is pointless, because it's not like you get these clusters only as exclusive reward from leveling roulettes, and you're also not forced to play the adventurer in need job. It would be absolute different if it's mandatory or there would be no other way of obtaining that stupid cluster lol.

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Originally Posted by Vespar

The same could be said of RDM's who spam dualcasted raise in dungeons.

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If you have to "spam" a resurrection spell, I believe the problem lies elsewhere. I would not compare the occasional rez (if you're in a dungeon with me, that number will typically a 0) to the heal-dps playstyle. :D

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Originally Posted by LunaFaye

On the other hand, and I noticed that lately, I end up with a lot of "bad" tanks/healers that just went into the dungeon because of the cluster, making it a absolute nightmare, and they will even say that they are not going to play that job, just want the bonus. So either way, while SE tried to make the dps queue's faster with that initiative, it also can back fire in situations as I just mentioned.

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Ok, time for me to try and come up with a solution to this. If this is a problem that they're repeatedly doing it, what if it was made that if you receive a certain number of vote kicks as the adventurer in need you get banned from the adventurer in need bonus for x number of days (where x is a positive integer, as in no decimal places)? Could this weed out the problem you described?

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Originally Posted by Vespar

The same could be said of RDM's who spam dualcasted raise in dungeons. Adventurer in Need Bonus for DPS is so rare that I have only ever seen it maybe 5 or 6 times since I started ARR.
The point I was trying to make is more about them giving all these benefits but only to a select group of players. And I will hammer that point over and over again. If you give it to one, then you need to make it AS EQUALLY FAIR to all. The cracked cluster or w/e should just be a randomized drop to anyone who participated.

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DPS are being rewarded in that they actually get to complete dungeon quests.

Remove all incentives to tank/heal and you'd be perpetually waiting for players who happen to prefer those jobs, meaning that DPS players trying to get through the MSQ would hit a 3+ hour wait time when queuing for a dungeon that's necessary to progress the story.

At that point, you'd see a lot more of tanks and healers selling their services in /sh in major cities and in the party finder. You already see a little of this now, but believe me when I say prices would SKYROCKET if DPS players were being forced to wait hours for a queue to pop.

Either you'd pay out the nose for a tank or you can look forward to insanely long queue times...

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Originally Posted by LunaFaye

On the other hand, and I noticed that lately, I end up with a lot of "bad" tanks/healers that just went into the dungeon because of the cluster, making it a absolute nightmare, and they will even say that they are not going to play that job, just want the bonus.

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Yeah if that's the case, the reward is too big.

Never encountered that so far but I'm the healer/tank 99% of the time. :D

I think the only solution to this is for everyone to become a tank. That way SE will have no choice, but to add a DPS reward to Duty Finder. It's brilliant! C'mon everybody, follow me!!!

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Originally Posted by Katsuragi_

Underlying problems that SE is incompetent to fix... I guess that they should just create NPC tanks and script them to supply for the demand.

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Not at all. There are several things SE can do, and many of them would be simple.

The easiest would be to impose gates on all existing dungeons so that pull size wasn't a decision-making process. They could remove the gates for non-DF parties so as to soothe people who run in preformed groups. That would immediately relieve a lot of the healer / tank stress, because nobody would be whining about speed-pulls if the dungeon mechanics removed any possibility of it. Less uncertainty, less room for DPS-role players to pressure the tanks - better experience.

There are also other options. Making Enmity maintenance more interesting would help; tanks shouldn't be forced into "tanking mode" or "damage-dealing mode"; they should have multiple options within the tanking role. Perhaps a Regen-like effect for Enmity? Who knows; that's up to SE to sort out. Either way, giving tanks different ways of fulfilling their role can only help matters. The most difficult (but likely most effective) solution would be to re-balance dungeons around a 5- or 6-person party setup, with the additional slots going to DPS-role players. Unfortunately, the only convenient window of opportunity for a change like that is the launch of a new expansion, which would naturally allow for a "all dungeons above level X" setting, so that SE doesn't need to re-balance older dungeons to meaningfully impact queue times.

Hell, even offering a simple apology to people for so badly miscalculating with the RDM / SAM decision would go a long way. It wouldn't fix the problem, but at least players wouldn't feel quite so insulted. SE got up on their high horse for months leading up to the release of Stormblood, all to justify the release of two DPS-role jobs without any healer or tank options. It backfired, badly. They should suck it up, apologize, and pledge to learn from it (as well as some of the more horrific 4.0 combat changes, which single-handedly destroyed SCH populations and weakened WAR / DRK / WHM numbers).

Or, y'know, we could follow your snarky suggestion.

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Originally Posted by LunaFaye

On the other hand, and I noticed that lately, I end up with a lot of "bad" tanks/healers that just went into the dungeon because of the cluster, making it a absolute nightmare, and they will even say that they are not going to play that job, just want the bonus. So either way, while SE tried to make the dps queue's faster with that initiative, it also can back fire in situations as I just mentioned.

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This is why I don't agree with the solution. It's a bandaid fix to the underlying problems revolving around tanks and healers not queuing. You just get players chasing after the reward.

"Wahh I had to wait 40 minutes for a DPS queue!"

You suckers wouldn't have lasted a day in FFXI. Where, if you weren't a Bard, Ranger, or Red Mage, you sat in town with your party flag up for 5-6 hours to maybe get a party invite. And, if you were lucky and get a good group? You *might* make 3k exp per hour, or enough to fill 10-15% of your exp bar from 65-66. God help you if you were a DRG or PLD for the first 5 years of FFXI. No FATEs, no POTD, no quests gave exp, and soloed mobs were hard as hell for most jobs and gave a sliding scale of exp where enemies of your level gave a flat 100 exp, weaker gave 50-75. Mobs 1-2 levels above you could kill you super easily and gave 125-150. And you needed about 60,000 to level up in the 60-70 range. You stayed your level for weeks.


P.S. dying in XI lowered your exp by 10% if you warped back without a Raise. Getting raised gave 50-90% of that back depending on the tier of the raise. But the main point was you could lose enough exp from failing solo attempts to DELEVEL (Lord help you if you had just gotten a whole new set of Level 75 endgame gear and deleveld and your gear is stripped. Theb you can't equip any of it till you leveled back up, so you were naked with bare fists that unless you were a Monk, or had a job with native Hand to Hand skill, hit for 0 or missed.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

Not at all. There are several things SE can do, and many of them would be simple.

The easiest would be to impose gates on all existing dungeons so that pull size wasn't a decision-making process. They could remove the gates for non-DF parties so as to soothe people who run in preformed groups. That would immediately relieve a lot of the healer / tank stress, because nobody would be whining about speed-pulls if the dungeon mechanics removed any possibility of it. Less uncertainty, less room for DPS-role players to pressure the tanks - better experience.

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Deliberately designing DF versions of instances meant to be as obnoxious as possible all so a few far too easily stressed tanks and healers are catered to doesn't sound even remotely sensible.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Deliberately designing DF versions of instances meant to be as obnoxious as possible all so a few far too easily stressed tanks and healers are catered to doesn't sound even remotely sensible.

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Whether or not something is obnoxious is purely subjective. Personally, I find it obnoxious when my rotation consists of cure-spamming or AoE spells only, but that's speed-pulls for you. I'd much rather take a few minutes longer and have breathing room to actually use my full toolset.

If you have anything relatively objective to add to the discussion, feel free. Otherwise, why bother wasting everyone's time with drivel?