[Tanks/Healers]: Are you disappointed there is no new job in 4.0?

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The fact AST was built to mimic WHM and SCH is a huge problem, IMO. To me, that's something worthy of a redesign; "Killing it" might be better than leaving it as is and trying to build off it.

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problem is they cant just kill it its too late too many people invested into it it'd cause massive blowback to just delete a job like that. I really do agree with those points, i mean they could just plop out a new healer and tank but then wed be getting a new paladin or whitemage . AST probably would have been ok with its low potencies if it were able to switch stances in combat. Still just says alot when it was designed to replace either sch or whm depending on the other healer, i mean...the switching would probably have made it play differently enough but maybe someday we can get a fresh tank and fresh healer, not designed to push x job out, etc.

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Originally Posted by Mature

I think the jobs will come after not on release just like Ninja dis

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They have said in the past they don't want to do that again. If they had time for that I expect they would just add an addition job to the next expansion.

I am a healer main and I am 100% not disappointed. I did not want a new healing or tank class. I tank to help friends with queues at times.

WHM is my favorite healing class and even I can say it is 3rd rate for healing classes, especially for primals and savage. If you have a SCH, you want an AST. If you have an AST, you want another AST or aSCH. Adding another healer will either push out one of them like AST ultimately did to WHM, or will be another DoA job like AST was.

tl;dr Until they find a way to properly balance the healer and tank jobs so they are all wanted, I don't want anymore of them.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

problem is they cant just kill it its too late too many people invested into it it'd cause massive blowback to just delete a job like that. I really do agree with those points, i mean they could just plop out a new healer and tank but then wed be getting a new paladin or whitemage . AST probably would have been ok with its low potencies if it were able to switch stances in combat. Still just says alot when it was designed to replace either sch or whm depending on the other healer, i mean...the switching would probably have made it play differently enough but maybe someday we can get a fresh tank and fresh healer, not designed to push x job out, etc.

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They did it to Bard despite the overwhelming blowback. Balance has to be rolled back or nerfed otherwise White Mage is a dead job come Stormblood. It's already fallen severely in the raid environment and will only continue to struggle unless something is done to bring down Scholar and/or Astro. At the moment, they really have nothing to add onto White Mage which will benefit a raid group more than enhanced Balance since they aren't going to take away shields from the other healers. Unfortunately, I have a feeling they are just going to give it more raw healing and that isn't going to change a thing.

Yeah, I'm definitely disappointed. I was really looking forward to a new Tank to try out, but now I won't get one.

Honestly, it's no more complicated than that. I wanted to see what new aesthetic and mechanics they were bringing to the Tanking (and Healing) roles, and the answer was nothing.

I found their excuse especially poor. Saying "you probably won't switch permanently to DPS so it'll be fine if we don't give you anything" felt like a bit of a kick in the teeth, even if I know they didn't mean it that harshly. Even their arguments about "balancing" them sound hollow, since we have no idea about how deep the changes will go. For all we know, they'll just increase potency on a few abilities for Paladin and call it done. In Heavensward, they failed to handle some of the major issues for Paladin (doubling down on Physical reduction then building raids with lots of magical damage, Divine Veil's needlessly complicated setup etc), so I have little confidence they'll suddenly become amazing. I really hope the "revamps" are excellent, but it's highly possible they'll do too little. Alternatively, the changes could be poorly thought out, and most of the Jobs become less then fun to play. "Class revamps" are not always a good thing. Even then, the "Tanks/Healers get balance" arguments equally apply to DPS. Are the other DPS classes not getting new abilities and balance updates? I'll admit, the announcement really hurt my excitement for the expansion. I wanted to see a fresh new take on the Tanking role, and I won't get one.

If their excuse had been "we could only handle two Jobs for the expansion, and we felt like we could best implement our vision of the Samurai and Red Mage as DPS", along with a mention that "Healers and Tanks will have new Jobs to look forward to in future expansions, don't you worry" I wouldn't be anywhere near as disappointed. Their excuses just felt very poor, especially since we have no real information on these supposed "balance updates" we'll be receiving. If they gave us a glimpse at some upcoming changes to Paladin, Astrologian, or White Mage, I would at least have something to be excited about. Oh well. I'm definitely disappointed, but I'll still play Stormblood, even if it does (at first glance at least) seem to have less content then Heavensward. If they don't add any new Tanks or Healers in the next expansion though...

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Originally Posted by Altena

Melee DPS didn't.
Caster DPS didn't.
They are both very different roles to a support ranged DPS.

At a stretch, your best argument here is that NIN is a melee.

"All DPS playing in the same red DPS icon = DPS fill the same role or even remotely appeal to the same audience" is an extremely closed minded way of thinking.



The difference between a PLD, DRK and WAR is negligable compared to the difference between a MCH and a DRG or MNK. Same can be said if you flipped the tank jobs with the healer jobs in that statement.

I main WAR, but I play all jobs to some level. You should too. Branch out and enjoy the other classes and be happy that we will finally have new options for caster and heavy melee.
Many people have been waiting for a new heavy melee since the release of 1.0 and we haven't got it.

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Caster Tanks, Projectile/support tanks (at best WAR is a stretch for support tank)
Melee Helaers, Projectile/support Healers.

Considering tanks and healers lack the diversity DPS gained, they need it more than DPS need more diversity.
(PLD to WAR and WHM to SCH are examples of much more drastically different play styles. AST and DRK were just jobs that try to meet in the middle of the two. Only making PLD feel more like WAR, despite not being more like WAR at all. Same with AST making WHM and SCH feeling more alike, though WHM did get more instant casts)

Overall, I'm disappointed. As others have mentioned, I'd like to have a greater variety of tanking options. DPS already have seven jobs to choose from, while healers and tanks only get three each (and one of those healers is pretty much just a DPS class with some healing abilities glued on). Tanks and healers deserve to have a variety of jobs to choose from as much as DPS do, and DPS already have a hugely diverse lineup available to them.

As for queues, that's not a big part of my disappointment, but I gotta admit that Yoshi P is crazy if he thinks this isn't going to be rough on them. While it is true that healers are likely to keep playing healing jobs, tanks are likely to keep playing tanking jobs, and DPS are likely to keep playing DPS jobs, all three of those roles are going to have a SIGNIFICANT number of people who are going to want to try out the new jobs, even if they go back to their comfortable roles later on. While queues may return to normal in the long run, in the short term they're going to be nothing short of nightmarish.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

They did it to Bard despite the overwhelming blowback. Balance has to be rolled back or nerfed otherwise White Mage is a dead job come Stormblood. It's already fallen severely in the raid environment and will only continue to struggle unless something is done to bring down Scholar and/or Astro. At the moment, they really have nothing to add onto White Mage which will benefit a raid group more than enhanced Balance since they aren't going to take away shields from the other healers. Unfortunately, I have a feeling they are just going to give it more raw healing which won't continue a thing.

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Yeah I was less than thrilled about some of the changes hw brought, esp to bard you make a good point. And I agree raw healing power isnt going to fix the issue, and nor would giving mnk just some more dps, unless they jacked that dps to op levels, then its not balanced yet again.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Caster Tanks, Projectile/support tanks (at best WAR is a stretch for support tank)
Melee Helaers, Projectile/support Healers.

Considering tanks and healers lack the diversity DPS gained, they need it more than DPS need more diversity.
(PLD to WAR and WHM to SCH are examples of much more drastically different play styles. AST and DRK were just jobs that try to meet in the middle of the two. Only making PLD feel more like WAR, despite not being more like WAR at all. Same with AST making WHM and SCH feeling more alike, though WHM did get more instant casts)

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Im on board with seeing really unique tanks/healers. For tanks though they still require a moderate level of handling melee range mobs, but a hybrid of range/melee would still be refreshing Im talking more than just abyssal drain having sort of that type of effect.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

DPS already have seven jobs to choose from...

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This is not necessarily true. Party comps typically have two of each role (melee or ranged), thus our decision is somewhat narrowed to those specific roles. You certainly can run triple of either, though few groups-- even casual-- do as mechanics can be cumbersome to handle and the loss of utility is far more noticeable. None this accounts for the sheer differences in DPS jobs. I prefer close quarter combat roles. Currently, that limits my choice to three DPS jobs: Monk, Dragoon and Ninja. Most people tend to focus on roles they fancy not the blanket term "DPS". Of course, this does not pertain to everyone but, then again, some tanks prefer Dark Knight and won't play anything else. You also have to consider DPS roles will always outnumber tanks and healers both due to content requiring more of them and player preference.

Im not disappointed but I dont know WHY im not disappointed. I felt like I would care a lot more if Samurai wasnt a tank but... i dont. I guess im content with the current 3 tanks.

At first? Sure, I was a little deflated that I wouldn't have a shiny new healer play thing. However, I've just used this an excuse to retire from healing. I've spent too many years playing the selfless healer, it's time to mix things up a bit. I think i'll give Red Mage a bash. I've been enjoying the liberating feeling of playing DPS lately as opposed to my AST, so I'm eager to sink my teeth into Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by Jiao

At first? Sure, I was a little deflated that I wouldn't have a shiny new healer play thing. However, I've just used this an excuse to retire from healing. I've spent too many years playing the selfless healer, it's time to mix things up a bit. I think i'll give Red Mage a bash. I've been enjoying the liberating feeling of playing DPS lately as opposed to my AST, so I'm eager to sink my teeth into Stormblood.

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Join the fold!

Nope. I don't care about AST or SCH. White mage power.


Maybe if they gave you the option to play the class from level 1, i would bother learning AST, but they get too many skills at 30 and eh, it's a pain to learn and map the spells for me.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Hey all,

There was a thread a few days back I think where I posted a question I felt the devs would not answer (to my satisfaction) and it began to kind of derail that thread so I am making this topic for those who wish to continue to discuss it.

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Im still salty I play dps but I love tanks and healers for one as a healer you can heal your self if your hp is low, as a tank you have so much health that its hard for you to die. As a dps two hits and no heal by the healer your a goner , I just feel like dps are so much more dependent on healers that I dont like it Ill play the new jobs but nothing more than potd dungeons at my level, and the occasional run with friends.

I'm a bit disappointed, not strictly due to no new job but rather the lack of information in general. "DPS, if you're unhappy or bored with what you've got here's an idea of what's coming for you to try out! Tanks? Healers? For you guys there's uh mm eh... Changes? To the things?"

I would've liked a new tank but I'm pretty happy with how Dark Knight plays and am excited to see it's new skills. There's also the changes to Paladin I look forward to seeing.
So I'm not that bummed out.

I'm actually okay with it. I'm a tank main and my focus will be getting my tank jobs to 70 and gearing them. It's a bit of a relief I don't have to worry about figuring out how the new job's playstyle fits in and whether I or my co-tank have to change to that job.

As for healing, I have all three at 60, intend to get all three to 70, and I'm relieved there as well. I feel like the healing jobs are in a good place and a fourth might unbalance them unless it brought something very different to the table, like a TP based debuffing/buffing dancer.

I lied, I think we really needed that Dancer healer. :(

Why would you need a new tank class when you have WAR?

Yes, I am disappointed. An agility tank or physical healer would have been awesome. As would Dancer.

My biggest issue right now for tanks and healers is the gearing. I really hate the tank gear especially, but Healer gear is little better.

My PLD is tired of metal on metal on leather armor. She's tired of the damned chaffing from the metal pants and boots. She hates being covered from head to toe in unisex blah armor that gives her abs and pecs, but no breasts. She loathes the fact that is is apparently impossible to make good looking metal armor that actually fits a female figure, and my god, in a fantasy game is it too much to expect that she can show a little bit of leg? It's not like the armor in this game would physically be capable of standing up to the damage it takes, so obviously it's 'magic' in which case, why can't female tanks have a few tank armors that look good on them?

I mean it's all fine and well if you're a Roegadyn male or Highlander male, your physique more than matches the armor styles that the majority of tank gear uses. But even FemRoes and highland lasses look uncomfortable squeezing their assets into the fake abs and generic shaped cuirass that we normally see. I'm not asking for bikini armor, I'm not even asking for lots of sets, just a few. Please let female tanks be female.

Right now my only options require glamoring over the gear I work for. I'd like to be able to show off my gear sometimes, but not at the expense of the character I've worked hard to create and develop.

Similarly for White Mage and the other healers, why do we have to suffer what almost amounts to Papal Robes (or similar) every time there is a gear set being created? Casters have a much better time of it, perhaps Casters are just sexier than healers? From the point of view of male characters healer gear is very feminine already, it's mostly robes and dresses after all, they need something better. They need something that is designed for them. At the same time I know very few female (or male) WHM who enjoy looking like they got a good price on some surplus hempen blankets. So again, can we please have some gear that is actually well designed and tailored, pretty, and perhaps even a piece or two leaning towards sexy?

Of course given that I would like to see Dancer and an agility tank, it's perhaps not surprising that I would like to see some lighter and more stylish tank (and healer) armors

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I'm not bothered by the lack per se, but at the reasoning given. This is like their logic for making Au'ra look like hyurs with cosplay bits on them; they're convinced there's more people switching for more of the same and are not taking into account the new people DRK and AST attracted to tanking and healing.

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I had quit the game mid-second Coil and came back some months after HW only drawn in my Astrologian, so yeah. Basing new classes off of who switches to new jobs seems pretty off-base to me. That whole excuse was pretty crappy.

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Originally Posted by RubenSnizzle

Maybe if they gave you the option to play the class from level 1, i would bother learning AST, but they get too many skills at 30 and eh, it's a pain to learn and map the spells for me.

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This is probably the most frustrating thing for me with regards to healing and tanking jobs in this game. If you want to heal off the bat, you have literally ONE option: conjurer/white mage. For the other two, you have to either grind through 30 levels as a dps, or grind through 50 levels PLUS all of the ARR MSQ before you can get to the job you want. :/ Tanks have it almost though not quite as bad, as you get to pick between two jobs to start from level one.

But yeah, healers have pretty much no options.

I couldn't be happier about Samurai being a DPS. I hate tanking with a passion, and im still working on playing AST. So having Samurai, one of my favorite jobs in XI, be a DPS? It's amazing.
RDM i dont really care about tbh lol.

Initially, I am somewhat disappointed because it never feels good being left out when others get new things. Also, I was really hoping to see a new take or variation to tanking in the game and the option to try it out and see if it fits me better than what we currently have.

However, I will reserve final judgment on whether holding off was a good or bad thing depending on to what extent the combat changes alter tank and healer play and what they do with the existing jobs in regards to new abilities with lvl 60-70.

A little bummed, but not salty about it.

I mained BRD through 2.x, switched to MCH on the first day of 3.0 (no regrets, I didn't have the same issues with it that everyone else seemed to, likewise with AST when I switched from WHM as my go-to healing job). I left for a while and now main AST, the point of which is to be either regen-based reactive or shield-based predictive. The only broken part of AST is its utility being much more appealing (yes, despite the RNG, but it's literally a deck of cards) than the other 2. It's style of healing has always felt unique IMHO, I never feel like I'm a WHM or SCH clone depending on sect.

I'll continue to use AST as my main healer, but I'll definitely be going with either RDM or SAM as my new main DPS job as I'm burned out on being ranged support and none of the others have really grabbed me, though I'm enjoying leveling MNK.

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Originally Posted by Altena

My point here is that a MCH is very different from a MNK and DRG, because they flat out don't fill the same role as many people claim

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I'm sorry...what? I mean, I've been away from the game for a while, but when did any of those classes become something other than DPS?

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People are saying that because we got MCH, melee should be perfectly happy and don't need more variety. This is a key argument in so many Tank and Healer only players..

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Actually, no. It's not a key argument. Nobody has ever suggested that DPS should never get new roles and don't need more variety (same can't be said about the reverse though...). What they are saying is that Tanks and Healers also need more variety. Especially since (even according to you) they already have less variety to begin with.

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Sure... If you can tank from range.. Or pull out some melee healers.. I mean there isn't much else to go with Tanks/Healers.. Do you have any ideas that haven't been done? There aren't any categories until there is enough differentiation between them.

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Well, ranged tanks and melee healers have been successfully done in other games so, hell, why not?

I don't see why the standards need to be so different between the roles. Nobody's looking at the Samurai and saying, "how many different ways can you stab somebody with a blade? We already have Dragoons, Ninja, and Red Mages" but for some reason the fact that we have a tank with an axe and a tank with a sword means that we're all out of ideas. Obviously there's ways to differentiate melee classes even if they use similar weapons. Or even the same weapons for that matter. This isn't a difficult concept to grasp unless FFXIV is literally the only RPG you've ever played in your life.

Hell, WoW has Death Knights, Warriors and Paladins all wearing the same armor and using the same weapons and yet they play wildly different from one another so don't tell me the well's already run dry over here.

Yes, I am disappointed. I tried to brace myself for this possibility (only 2 new jobs and both dps), but I guess I failed at that ;P. When the news came out confirming it, it came as a huge disappointment and absolutely sucked away all my excitement for SB.

I suppose it at least makes my decision of what to main pretty easy. AST all the way. I'll only lvl SMN once the queue situation calms down. And yeah, I'll eventually try out RDM, but meh, it's very backburner.

For me, now that I've had time to think about it, it's less about not getting a new healer job, as it is that feeling of being left out. But even more than that, just the whole dismissive vibe I'm getting from what Yoshi has said on the subject. This whole expansion, including what little we've heard about the battle and job changes, just seems to be very focused on dps, with tanks and healers just... left out. It sucks. :(

I'm a white mage main for life (assuming the combat restructuring doesn't completely change the Job on me) so I don't really feel left out. I am feeling the pain of having a lack of tanks in queues. So not having a new tank that might possibly tempt others to the role is a concern for me.

Yes, I am disappointed. In fact, I still haven't even PO'd Stormblood yet, when the same time two years ago I couldn't PO Heavensward fast enough.

All of my reasons have already been mentioned many times in this thread, so I will leave it at that.

I have WAR and DRG. I plan on leveling SAM and RDM at some point but I may take advantage of the time after Stormblood releases to level up PLD or DRK since tanks will be in high demand.

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Originally Posted by Raven_Darkstar

Yes, I am disappointed. I tried to brace myself for this possibility (only 2 new jobs and both dps), but I guess I failed at that ;P. When the news came out confirming it, it came as a huge disappointment and absolutely sucked away all my excitement for SB.

I suppose it at least makes my decision of what to main pretty easy. AST all the way. I'll only lvl SMN once the queue situation calms down. And yeah, I'll eventually try out RDM, but meh, it's very backburner.

For me, now that I've had time to think about it, it's less about not getting a new healer job, as it is that feeling of being left out. But even more than that, just the whole dismissive vibe I'm getting from what Yoshi has said on the subject. This whole expansion, including what little we've heard about the battle and job changes, just seems to be very focused on dps, with tanks and healers just... left out. It sucks. :(

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Yeah, I think he very much intended the opposite, but I found Yoshi P's reassurances more off putting than reassuring. That might partially be because they seem to have really struggled with figuring out balance all 3.X so I am naturally sceptical that that has suddenly changed. I also found the idea of not being left out is actually getting balance which is something you really should get by default. Its like someone selling one person a house with furnishings and then selling you a similar house without furnishings for the same price and saying 'but don't worry, we will make sure the house has a roof'.

I am not hating on Yoshi P. He was trying to reassure us and there is a limit on details he can go into so he cant offer much beyond vague promises. Its just how it came off.

It is all going to come down to details on changes to the combat system and tank and healer classes. If its good I personally will be bothered a lot less. I don't want to get my hopes up though because with so little to go on it would be easy to start hoping for things which aren't happening.

Well, as of now I only main two jobs. One is my BRD since the day I started playing this game and the other is SCH, which is and will always remain my main healer until the end of days. As for tank, I couldn't care less about it, since I stopped playing one for various reasons.

I tried out AST in the last expansion, I liked it, but dropped it again cause it couldn't replace SCH for me. So, I'm fine even if there isn't a healer in the new expansion and looking at RDM or SAM, I'm thinking of trying out both to see how I like them. Wouldn't abandon my BRD for either of them, but I'm willing to take on a second DPS job if it appeals to me.

Being a war since 1.0/2.0/3.0 an probably 4.0 too, my war an I are one, so I'm not really salty or anything about not getting tanks, the only thing I'm hoping for is not a big nerf, besides that I'm a happy the way it is.

I am a little disappointed. I have played a healer since Beta and the role is getting a bit boring for me (I do play DRK and a few DPS to break-up the gameplay). I'm hoping the changes they mention bring something to WHM.

With that said, I will still buy Stormblood since I have been with FFXIV too long to stop.

At the end of the day one group is going to be upset. We can't really expect 3 jobs every expansion, thats asking a bit much. Some games don't even get new classes for years sometimes so we should be grateful we get this much. We didn't have a proper blade type dps so that fact we are getting 2 should keep those people happy for a while!

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Originally Posted by bass9020

At the end of the day one group is going to be upset. We can't really expect 3 jobs every expansion, thats asking a bit much. Some games don't even get new classes for years sometimes so we should be grateful we get this much. We didn't have a proper blade type dps so that fact we are getting 2 should keep those people happy for a while!

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Pretty much. I think this thread as much as anything just serves as a chance to express that disappointment and raise concerns and hopes. Its not fundamentally changing anything but its worth letting the devs know though I think they expressed as much. Honest, constructive feedback never hurts.

Yea it is a little disappointing that a new tank or healer job wasn't added but typically dps type jobs always out number tank and healer jobs unfortunately, it was the same on FFXI except whm was the only real healer job rdm was an acceptable replacement for a whm if one couldn't be found. There were only 2 acceptable tank jobs on there too pld and nin.

Now from a previous thread I had started someone had posted a link in regards to a live letter question I think it was about if another job would be released for stormblood. Yoshi P had replied that they wanted to get everything balanced properly and everything but afterwards then MAYBE they would look at releasing a third job in one of the 4.x patches

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Originally Posted by bass9020

At the end of the day one group is going to be upset. We can't really expect 3 jobs every expansion, thats asking a bit much. Some games don't even get new classes for years sometimes so we should be grateful we get this much. We didn't have a proper blade type dps so that fact we are getting 2 should keep those people happy for a while!

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Of course expecting 3 jobs every expansion is a bit much, so naturally some role would get left out, it just makes zero sense then to not at least cover 2 of the 3 roles instead of doubling down on just one. Especially when that one you doubled down on already has the most variety and number of jobs available to it and had already had the most new jobs added to its role as well (3 in total before 4.0, now 5). Where as healers have had 2, and tanks only 1.

im not sad or disappointed im happy we dont have to pick between a new tank or healer right now and i love my drk. i wouldn't change off it for anything right now. unless we get blue mage as a tank

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Pretty much. I think this thread as much as anything just serves as a chance to express that disappointment and raise concerns and hopes. Its not fundamentally changing anything but its worth letting the devs know though I think they expressed as much. Honest, constructive feedback never hurts.

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Yea I wasn't trying to come off as mean spirited or anything, I just don't think people realize its not that easy to just add a role for the sake of adding one because thats what they play. DPS seems to be the easiest to design. I would love for another role class to be added but after how Dark Knight and Astrologian were nothing more than carbon copies of Paladin and not just White Mage but also Scholar! I think taking some time off from those roles is a good choice.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

Of course expecting 3 jobs every expansion is a bit much, so naturally some role would get left out, it just makes zero sense then to not at least cover 2 of the 3 roles instead of doubling down on just one. Especially when that one you doubled down on already has the most variety and number of jobs available to it and had already had the most new jobs added to its role as well (3 in total before 4.0, now 5). Where as healers have had 2, and tanks only 1.

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So would you prefer another healer or tank thats exactly like what we have now because they couldn't think of something more unique? Of course DPS will always be the most bloated role but its better than getting more clones with just a different name attached.

I'm disappointed. Currently on the RDM hype train because I have nothing to look forward to for AST or SCH -yet-