Do YOU think we'll get a new Tank and/or Healer in 4.0? And vice versa.

Sprint needs to just be a cooldown, not a tp cost. At least as far as pve goes.

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Originally Posted by Alacran

Why people insist on shoehorning RDM into a Tank I simply don't get. Sure a little work is all that's needed, but it already fits the wanted sword DPS class/ Job so well.

There have been plenty of in series references to the job that denote just how powerful it can be, stylistically it is one of the most recognizable staple of the series, and again it would give players the much wanted sword DPS.

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I have two reasons why this is the case

1. The sword is an iconic weapon of the brave, people who go straight in harms way and take the most risks.
2. The sword is not the only thing integral to Red Mage, past iterations also have it using both Black and White magic, which would make a little more sense for Tanks, than for DPS (SMN is an exception for reasons that the devourers deemed "a mistake")

To add, SAM, the other anticipated Job, also uses swords. In light of point 1, the devs might see 2 Sword DPS as too much. As as for "how powerful it could be" I must mention that past iterations are locked out of using the most powerful B/W spells, usually Flare, Holy, and any spell ending in -ga or -ja. With that said their other claim to fame is the use of Doublecast (or in the Bravely games, the Brave Mechanic) to get aroun that weakness to becoming a heavy hitter

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Originally Posted by Derio

Sprint needs to just be a cooldown, not a tp cost. At least as far as pve goes.

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yeah is so unfair for tp clases....

i guess Rdm would come to double cast on 1 min cd (the skills already exist , Brd barrage is "triple cast" )

Sword attacks with right hand and cast magic with left , they could use a mix of both to create combos

enhance sword with elements , and 1 finishers that changes based on that ...for spells

Fire as dot , Air as silence , Lighting as stun , Ice as heavy (or slow) , Earth could be used to protect the rdm for some dmg , or lower dmg done by the target ....

there are some many possibilities with rdm......

i loved that concept (credit to Obsy-3 )

http://pre14.deviantart.net/ff87/th/..._3-d8u5sjn.png

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I have two reasons why this is the case

1. The sword is an iconic weapon of the brave, people who go straight in harms way and take the most risks.
2. The sword is not the only thing integral to Red Mage, past iterations also have it using both Black and White magic, which would make a little more sense for Tanks, than for DPS (SMN is an exception for reasons that the devourers deemed "a mistake")

To add, SAM, the other anticipated Job, also uses swords. In light of point 1, the devs might see 2 Sword DPS as too much. As as for "how powerful it could be" I must mention that past iterations are locked out of using the most powerful B/W spells, usually Flare, Holy, and any spell ending in -ga or -ja. With that said their other claim to fame is the use of Doublecast (or in the Bravely games, the Brave Mechanic) to get aroun that weakness to becoming a heavy hitter

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Out of curiosity, how does it more sense for a Tank to use black and white magic of the Red Mage, but not use light to medium armor of a Samurai?

Lastly, my comment " a little work was all that's needed" was in error, more apt would be the Olympic level mental gymnastics people come up with to set RDM as a Tank, while the Asian equivalent of the knight can do the Job better. Remember two of the current melee DPS jobs already carry the Asian theme very well (MNK, NIN), why should there not be a Tank to represent that culture as well? Were there no brave people to go straight into harms way and take the most risk?

I really don't even see the point of adding a new class/job in general. We basically have enough jobs to fill all the major roles needed, with the way the game is designed adding a new tank or healer won't add much. We basically have all the healing we need, this is why astro seems so lackluster. As far as tanks go the 3 we have cover everything that would be needed and anymore would be overkill at this point.

Adding another DPS job doesn't make much sense either seeing as we have basically all forms a DPS job can really take in game already, between DoTs, burst damage, ect. Anything new at this point is just going to seem lackluster, there isn't a niche that another job can fill to really add something to the game. This is why hybrids, like what astro was trying to be(High risk rng buffer with some heals)didn't work out and ended up as a clone of whm.

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Originally Posted by Alacran

Out of curiosity, how does it more sense for a Tank to use black and white magic of the Red Mage, but not use light to medium armor of a Samurai?

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My Opinion: I feel like SE doesn't want most DPS to use Healing Abilities to the point of not relying of the healer as much. While MNK and ACN can be cross-classed for Physick and Second Wind, they still seem rather weak (and one of one only affects themselves). MCH can't access either. There is also a 3rd healing move they can access, Mercy Stroke but in addition to being a self heal, is also a situational one. MNK where Second wind comes from, has Mantra which only increases a healer Spell's effect, not those from abilities.

In comparison, while not as much as a healer, natch. Tanks at least have more ways of healing (Mostly WAR). All three tanks can use WAR's Bloodbath and Mercy Stroke. WAR has in addition, Equilibrium and Thrill of Battle. PLD also has access to Cure, Raise and their own healing spell Clemency. DRK only has Souleater, which is more inline to a DPS' average amount of healing skills. But the fact WAR exists is proof that SE is more willing to let Tanks have more self-sufficiency than DPS (bar Arcanist, but I think that is one of the factors that caused them to deem it a mistake)

Now lets look at Red Mage. They are proficient with the sword, have Offensive Black and White Magic and have healing White Magic. They are more sufficient then other offensive casters. In addition that means if they are a DPS and do not have Aero, Stone and Water, that means that the they are less likely to live up to the Magic aspect of the Red Mage

As for the "light to medium armor" of a samurai. Know what else uses that kind of armor? The Dragoon, which in this game is not only a melee DPS, but is only considered Tanks in the context of floors and jokes. Plus SE has set of precedent of not making armor classes excluive to one Job as new jobs are rolled out with MCH. As it stands the light to medium armor of a samurai will put them in the same case as a DRG if they are a DPS.

As for why people want SAM to be a DPS (which is the more likely reason of wanted a RDM tank besides the novelty of a Caster Tank). I presume that they simply find SAM the cooler of the two AND do not want to tank.

Just so we're clear. I'm fine with either being Tanks or DPS (At least as long as RDM at least can use all 6 elements). And the reason I give for RD can lean to it fitting more as a Healer as well.

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Originally Posted by C56

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One word. Variety.

It doesn't really matter if a new job brings nothing majorly new to some people, myself included. Not everyone likes how some classes play, your example of AST being a WHM clone. Even if that is true, I will still play AST over a WHM, just as some will play MCH over BRD.

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Originally Posted by Alacran

Out of curiosity, how does it more sense for a Tank to use black and white magic of the Red Mage, but not use light to medium armor of a Samurai?



Lastly, my comment " a little work was all that's needed" was in error, more apt would be the Olympic level mental gymnastics people come up with to set RDM as a Tank, while the Asian equivalent of the knight can do the Job better. Remember two of the current melee DPS jobs already carry the Asian theme very well (MNK, NIN), why should there not be a Tank to represent that culture as well? Were there no brave people to go straight into harms way and take the most risk?

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I have no issue with SAM being DPS or Tank (Though most people want SAM and RDM to be DPS, as there's no sword DPS currently)
Also Yoshida thinks Samurai isnt a good name for a tank, but would instead change it to something like Rounin. (Like how he changed THF to ROG) He feels its not very "Protective/guardian" like.

But simply put, I'd like it if RDM didnt have a soul stone, but instead had 3 items that swap its role. (Healer, DPS, tank)
If we cant have that, then I look at RDM needing to do 3 things, for me to consider it close to RDM, while fitting our current system.
(1) Needs to melee to some extent. (Usually people make it a healer, and doing so would kill its melee potential)
(2) Needs to heals. (Giving potent heals to a DPS can cause some serious imbalance issues, looking at the nerfs to SMN to prevent it from being too good with heals. Also, in the hardest content, a lot of players need every GCD to be spent on DPS, not heals. Which also kills its healing potential. Look at how ppl get mad at SMNs doing battle rez in savage)
(3) Needs to have ranged Black Magic attacks. (Currently all 3 roles have ranged attacks or spells.)

Double cast, and quick cast are what RDM is also known for, but that's not about a role really.

Now of the 3 roles, the only one that forces a ranged character to melee, is Tank. (If you're tanking, mobs come to you, so you cant just range mobs)
Looking at DRKs unmend, you can have ranged spells for pulling/threat/dmg.

Now, of all 3 roles, which melee can still heal, while still being its role? PLD, DRK, and WAR.

Lastly, a Tank can switch to a "DPS stance" which does nearly as much dmg as a DPS does.

In the end, imo, RDM should be a Tank, if it's to be forced into a role.

otherwise it's going to be like the monstrosity SMN/SCH are, and be nothing like their class identity.

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Originally Posted by C56

I really don't even see the point of adding a new class/job in general. We basically have enough jobs to fill all the major roles needed, with the way the game is designed adding a new tank or healer won't add much. We basically have all the healing we need, this is why astro seems so lackluster. As far as tanks go the 3 we have cover everything that would be needed and anymore would be overkill at this point.

Adding another DPS job doesn't make much sense either seeing as we have basically all forms a DPS job can really take in game already, between DoTs, burst damage, ect. Anything new at this point is just going to seem lackluster, there isn't a niche that another job can fill to really add something to the game. This is why hybrids, like what astro was trying to be(High risk rng buffer with some heals)didn't work out and ended up as a clone of whm.

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You look at new classes as needing to bring something new to their role/contribution to the group.
But for some people, none of the classes have a fun play style for them.

Sometimes a different playstyle, with the same abilities, helps make something fun.

But to your example, I've noticed they didnt try to mess with anything too new with the 3 classes. They said they had a hard time getting them done in time, so I assume they just wanted to speed things up, and pick the safe route of "Take a base job, and add something on top of it."

Example being AST is WHM/SCH with cards on top.
DRK is PLD, with off the GCDs/MP management mechanics.

NIN on the other hand had the Mudra system, which feels much more different than other classes, and its shorter GCD is a good alternative to the MNK playstyle.

For myself, I love armored characters, I love tanking, and I love 2hand swords.

So I tried DRK, and loved its playstyle. (I liked PLD, but wanted more off the GCDs, and some sort of resource management, with less enmity management)
And what do you know, DRK was exactly what I wanted!

But so many of my friends cant find a class they like. (Just as I cant find a DPS I like. I can tolerate DRG and NIN, but hate BLM and SMN) So they end up quiting, because nothing feels right to them. (One of them only plays casters, and only if a good portion of their spells are instants, which in this game is a heavy NO! So they just left for another MMO.)

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

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I can accept many of the very valid points brought up by both parties here, as Dark Knight can "cast" many of it's spells immediately, I feel it leads to a very dynamic and satisfying play style. I was one of the many who at first disliked the idea (but grudgingly accepted even then) it being a Tank, as of today it is my main job and one that I absolutely love.

The idea of Red Mage being a DPS very similar to DRK, to me is not a bad idea, neither is the Samurai as a Tank following the FFT skill set (Draw Out/ Iaido) (tweaked of course for FFXIV). However i truly think we may be on the verge of a battle system change that may introduce skill/ talent trees allowing us to choose roles within jobs, and consolidated skills/traits to help with skill bloat (not certain it's good thing tbh). Mind you this is only my opinion, I have seen no evidence that this is what to expect from 4.0.

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Originally Posted by Alacran

skill/ talent trees

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i agree adding skill trees make everyone a little more happy like all they want drk and war become dps for example, but the skill trees in any game make a lot of imbalance issues making to the devs waste a lot of time in balance the jobs and not to mention that decrese for sure the tank population making 2 of the 3 most wanted tanks become a regular dps, i dont see skill trees in this game viable with all the jobs they want to add, if ffxiv have only 6-8 jobs then yes for sure, ¿but with all he can add? poor the devs how have to balance that.

What if both are tanks so we get 2 new tanking classes? ;)

as i look at it, i see 3 tanks 3 healers 2 range dps 2 magical dps 3 melee dps, so you can see that we need 1 magical dps and 1 more range dps, but as they are both range, i think they will add or a magic caster dps or a regular range dps

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Originally Posted by shao32

i agree adding skill trees make everyone a little more happy like all they want drk and war become dps for example, but the skill trees in any game make a lot of imbalance issues making to the devs waste a lot of time in balance the jobs and not to mention that decrese for sure the tank population making 2 of the 3 most wanted tanks become a regular dps, i dont see skill trees in this game viable with all the jobs they want to add, if ffxiv have only 6-8 jobs then yes for sure, ¿but with all he can add? poor the devs how have to balance that.

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Balancing issues aside i think it would be neat if skill trees were added that allowed jobs to cover 2 roles. there is a chance that amount of players that play tank and healer roles would stay the same since other jobs would be tank/healer possible. WAR (dps/tank), DRK (dps/tank), PLD (tank, dps or another tank setup), DRG (dps/tank or another dps type), MNK (dps, healer), Nin (dps/tank) etc..

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Originally Posted by Soralis

as i look at it, i see 3 tanks 3 healers 2 range dps 2 magical dps 3 melee dps, so you can see that we need 1 magical dps and 1 more range dps, but as they are both range, i think they will add or a magic caster dps or a regular range dps

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holy crap this again.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

Light Parties do not have 5 spots taking one from each, Full Parties do not have 10 spots taking two from each.

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the practical game breakdown is 3 tanks 3 melee 4 ranged 3 healers, we're missing 1 tank 1 melee 1 healer. the melee can be physical/magical (if they want to do RDM/BLU), but we're not missing 2 ranged DPS.

i just want a new caster dps, i love playing casters and i got bored of smn and blm, well they are not what i imagine ff blm and smn should be, so i just want a new caster, don't care about anything else. and i don't like brd and mch at all, oh and to add as well that there are 8 dow jobs and 5 dom, so i think they will add 1 dom for sure, not sure healer or caster but because they already added a healer this xpac i hope it will be a caster dd for the next one

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

the practical game breakdown is 3 tanks 3 melee 4 ranged 3 healers, we're missing 1 tank 1 melee 1 healer. the melee can be physical/magical (if they want to do RDM/BLU), but we're not missing 2 ranged DPS.

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Maybe SE should lump Casting and Aiming gear together then since that split is where the confusion stems from, 5 classes of armor for 4 roles. (gets flame shield)

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Originally Posted by Soralis

so i just want a new caster, don't care about anything else. and i don't like brd and mch at all

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i don't like BRD and MCH either but i'm not going to base my expectations on what the devs will do based on what i like or don't like.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Maybe SE should lump Casting and Aiming gear together then since that split is where the confusion stems from, 5 classes of armor for 4 roles. (gets flame shield)

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i legitimately want them to recombine left side Striking and Scouting sets into one like the low level stuff that have both STR and DEX.

and it would make sense to then have the Maiming set be usable by DRG and SAM. now we'll have two 2 melee sets and 2 ranged sets.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Maybe SE should lump Casting and Aiming gear together then since that split is where the confusion stems from[...]

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And then you consider that melees each have their own set.

For me it will be [DPS] Samurai and [Tank] Red Mage for 4.0, and [Healer] Dancer for 4.2

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Originally Posted by Zojha

And then you consider that melees each have their own set.

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Ideally the Melee sets should be folded together as well I see no reason why they should be separate other than for Glamour purposes, and I'd prefer that they' extend the treatment to all roles if glamour was the case (Harcore raiders are gonna go find other sources for BIS anyway and 3 different sets for melee with the same main stat just bloats the inventory for people with multiple jobs and or don;t want a differnet glamour per job). With that said the fact that melees each get a set (Including BRD) in 2.0 is the likely facto for people pointing out the 3/3/2/2/3 division and Jin countered with his 3/3/4/3 and the party limitations, because MCH set a precedence for sharing what was once exclusive gear types, and they want "competition" for the Striking, Maiming and Scouting sets which are currently exclusive to MNK, DRG and NIN. As Jin pointed out a Samurai DPS would fufill part of that niche for the Maiming gear

That reminds me, Have I mentioned gear as one of the reason people wnated a RDM tank?

I would like to see a sword DPS -> Samurai
A mixed melee/ranged DPS -> ?
A mixed melee/white/black mage DPS -> Red Mage

A Magitek healer -> ?

Since Jobs are cycled by weapons

Whip
Mace
two handed mace
single handed axe
Flail/Morningstar (ball chain style)
Hammers
etc.

A lot of options, just need to find a role (tank/heal/dps)

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Originally Posted by Souleater13

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sadly whe already have that, is name archanist, and they say "nope, no more"

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Originally Posted by Zojha

And either a healer with nothing but instant heals or a dancer that has to stand still all the time.

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They can do both just fine...

They have instant skills until level 52 when they get a stance that gives them all a cast time!

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

That reminds me, Have I mentioned gear as one of the reason people wnated a RDM tank?

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I can dig the return of nin/monk gear merging, could you elaborate on the rdm tank gear? I just assume theyd give it fending gear personally.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

I can dig the return of nin/monk gear merging, could you elaborate on the rdm tank gear? I just assume theyd give it fending gear personally.

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I think it is not because of RDM, but because of SAM. As I think I mentioned before, I think the Devs want to have Jobs share or "compete" for the split DPS sets (see: MCH). While RDM mix and swordplay and magic would either result in it being lumped in Casting gear or having its own Gear Class with either STR and INT or one of the main stats with the opposite speed stats (INT/Skill or STR/Spell). Having it as a Tank (which given DRK as a precedence, would mean its attacks would scale off VIT instead of STR or INT, though the other possibly would also be eh, possible), means that SAM would be free as a DPS and its own type of armor would fit the closest with the Maining set, currently exclusive to DRG, and aesthetically similar to Tank armor in most cases and with more flexible armor is other cases.

The reason I brought this up is because I presume most people would want to keep the inventory/Armory clutter down and yet another brand new gearset for another melee class (even when the class is partially Melee) would go against that desire, while also making it harder to gear because of Loot tables and RNG.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Wearing chain and light plate - aka light armor - is not enough to make a caster a tank. Also, making a quick comparison to FFXIV, where DRGs wear light armor and are squishy, tell me, how would a tank job, geared with similar equips to a DRG, survive a tankbuster? And if I remember right, Red Mages always had lower HP growth than a White Mage (since FFI).

I'm sure the devs COULD make Red Mage a tank, but just like FFXI did, by completely breaking apart from the Red Mage archetype and making a Mystic Knight by any other name.

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Star Wars made it work with the Shadow/Assassin tanks. They were only able to wear light armor but had different abilities from the other two tank classes. Have to open your mind up to different ability possibilities.

I'd say a DPS is the most likely single addition, but am honestly hoping it's none of the three pure roles. I'd like to see a Hybrid... coupled with revamps that increase group cross-role responsibilities in general. /shrug

I still like the concept of fixing parry and making it a core aspect of RDM if they do make it a tank. Dodging damage verses soaking it, and having skills specifically laid out to block and evade enemy skills.

Basically a tank that's defensive in a similar vein to Paladin.

The issue with that is they would still require the fortitude to survive a tank buster, so the class wpuld still require high VIT and DEF, in addition to forcing a player to be proactive and strategic on when to utilize certain cool downs (such as a temp. invincibility skill or a sudden surge of defense) to handle them. It would make for a weird rotation.






....that said, I still want Geomancer to be one of the new jobs. I want my bells and elemental skills...

Nope. I think we'll only see two jobs; both being DPS.

Personally I don't think they will touch red mage at all. Red mage has traditionally never been good at any job. We have WHM for healing, BLM for magic damage, SCH for healing, AST being the hybrid. The boat already sailed for red mage during heavensward if you ask me. Red mage as a tank? Sure a great idea in theory, but this game places no emphasis on elemental resistance. En-spells would end up being much like flash. I have a hard time seeing where it would fit anywhere without it treading on too much of another job. Some have also mentioned giving red mage double cast, another great ability in theory, but they would say they can't add it due tor balance issues. If they did somehow add it, it would last maybe 10 seconds with a 5 minute cooldown. I can't see how they give red mage much offensive magic given how most of the other mage jobs have each elemental covered. The idea of parry being for red mage would end up as red mage looking much like paladin.

--- We can also discuss Phalanx, Refresh, any of the abilities from 11 if you want, but do you think they will give them any meaningful times they would last? We get an auto refresh now and in my opinion Phalanx would be too far outside of their comfort zone (and if the player base somehow did convince them to add this ability, it would again only last a pitiful time such as 8-10 seconds in the name of that balance!!)

I wish someone would sit down and write out how they think red mage would work without it treading on another job so much that we have two of the same jobs. Sit and think about it and I bet very few will come up with a working job for red mage

To be honest, I see them adding one DPS, MAYBE two. The two DPS being either Samurai or Puppetmaster. Puppetmaster would fit nicely into the lore since Ala Mhigo is the home of monks (if we are headed there). They could be an off branch of the monk tribe. Just my two thoughts. I'll be waiting for the detailed write up on red mage instead of saying someone wants it to complete the trinity even if it stomps all over an existing job.

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Originally Posted by Nyerieri

En-spells....

I wish someone would sit down and write out how they think red mage would work without it treading on another job so much that we have two of the same jobs. Sit and think about it and I bet very few will come up with a working job for red mage

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I'm gonna point out that the En-spells are the domain of the Magic Knight class, not Red mage unless the two were merged into one (something I see likely but still only happened in XI) The two have some similarities but are usually treated as different classes. So woudn't letting RDM have the En-spells be treading on Magic Knight (again)?

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I'm gonna point out that the En-spells are the domain of the Magic Knight class, not Red mage unless the two were merged into one (something I see likely but still only happened in XI) The two have some similarities but are usually treated as different classes. So woudn't letting RDM have the En-spells be treading on Magic Knight (again)?

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Sorry. When I was discussing en-spells, I was thinking of XI since I believe they would follow down that path with some of their decision making since it is their only other MMO.

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Originally Posted by Nyerieri

Sorry. When I was discussing en-spells, I was thinking of XI since I believe they would follow down that path with some of their decision making since it is their only other MMO.

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I can see why, but since the devs seems to taking their Job inspirations from other games (AST was inspired by Tactics for example) and how different some classes are compared to XI (NIN can't tank, SMN in general, and DRG doesn't have pet dragons), I feel I must advise against using XI as the sole point of reference in this regard.

Speaking of NIN, I must ask what do you think the state of the DF would be if they only released DPS Jobs for 4.0?

It would be a cluster mess just because someone wants to be the first person to say "I got the job to 60 first!" on the forum. That would be true for any job they added. A solution would be waiting a few weeks and not jumping right in :).

I would be open to having a fair and open discussion about red mage (since that is the job I keep hearing people qq about) if someone could post a working template of the job (something similar to the Artist thread). Better yet someone could take all the ideas for red mage and compile them together then discuss the best ones and create a template off that! Most would rather just demand xyz job and let square figure it out, and not think about how it would effect the game overall. When they design a job, they never want to trample all over an existing job (most of the discussion here has been we're going to roll over paladin like a train for red mage). You have to remember square likes their comfort zone they are in right now. If black mage actually had half the spells it had in 11, I could -maybe- see them adding it as a hybrid but black mage has no where near the amount of abilities as compared to 11, so they can't give red mage too many of black mage abilities or it would feel like a black mage.

They also said a while ago they wanted to move away from the armory system, so I HIGHLY doubt we will see this job of being able to chose to que as a healer or tank since they didn't like the end result of arcanist.

The reason I suggested puppetmaster in particular is because it will add elements not currently in the game and wont trample over monk.


P.S. (since I know I will get flamed for maybe saying the above) Astrologian does not face roll over scholar or white mage. I know quite a few tanks that HATE getting stuck with astrologian healers since white mage or scholar is far superior healing wise.

If they were going to add red mage (and not ruin peoples immersion about red mage, since immersion has been discussed non stop in this section for the last month) the boat sailed during heavensward. They decided on astrologian so I doubt we will see red mage ever.

Okay, Maybe I can whip together a thread for RDM, at the very least it can get that topic off this topic so that it can shift to another potential Job

Introduce a support class or two or three.

I'd like versions of FFXI's BRD, COR, and even the original RDM (as a support class to serve to debuff mobs and backup heal).

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I can see why, but since the devs seems to taking their Job inspirations from other games (AST was inspired by Tactics for example) and how different some classes are compared to XI (NIN can't tank, SMN in general, and DRG doesn't have pet dragons), I feel I must advise against using XI as the sole point of reference in this regard.

Speaking of NIN, I must ask what do you think the state of the DF would be if they only released DPS Jobs for 4.0?

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In all fairness, NIN was released as a DPS in FFXI. The community made it a tank. Square-Enix then tried to make it DPS again by applying STR to gear later on, as well as abilities that allow for more damage (Innin).

We can definitely use FFXI as references considering that's where most of FFXIV players originated. I, myself, will ALWAYS look back to what FFXI opened the door for with FFXIV stuff.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Speaking of NIN, I must ask what do you think the state of the DF would be if they only released DPS Jobs for 4.0?

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Mhm...it miiight serve to enliven palace of the dead again at least, seeing as you can cram all those DPS in there for leveling :P

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

We can definitely use FFXI as references considering that's where most of FFXIV players originated.

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Uhm...are there statistics on that? It goes against my own experiences - very few of the people I meet have played FFXI prior, but it might just be a biased sample.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

Maybe they can fix sprint to just be a cooldown instead of wiping out all TP. Because wiping out TP is dumb.

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Or make it a dancer-specific job trait. The idea of being quick on your feet fits the Dancer image well.

Fleet-footed: Using Sprint consumes no TP.

Alternatively, DNC could have robust methods for recovering TP, something like BLM's Umbral Ice, except for TP instead of MP. They'd need some other kind of balance in place, though, in order to justify a healer who has no danger of ever running out of the resource they use to power their heals.

On the topic of Red Mage, there's plenty of room for it in this game, but folks that expect it to be multi-role are dreaming. It will most likely be a DPS, but it would not surprise me to see it as a front-line DPS rather than a ranged caster, mixing in short-ranged magical attacks along with sword attacks. It would likely use Rapier-class weapons. It may get a modest Cure ability as a nod to the classic jack-of-all-trades RDM, like a Job Ability heal on a three-minute timer - a welcome boost during times of stressful healing situations without putting it in any danger of competing with real healers.

Don't expect an overhaul of the Holy Trinity just to accommodate Red Mage!

I don't see Red Mage fitting into FFXIV. In most FF titles, they just use a few unique debuff spells, could equip both swords and daggers, and then learn the same spells as white and black mage but at higher levels. In FFXI there was essentially no defined roles (pre-Abyssea when the game was great), but Refresh and Paralyze/Slow debuffing was really the most useful thing about Red Mage in a party environment. If a party needed a healer, RDM could definitely fill the spot. However, they were never able to fill a DPS slot due to their weak melee hits and spells. Enfire, Enthunder, etc. were useless in parties and their Black Magic was just as bad. By the time Red Mages got tier III black magic, Black Mages were pumping out tier IVs.

In FFXIV, we have defined roles, which makes things even weirder for Red Mages since they are supposed to be a Jack-of-Trades who historically had an arsenal of white and black magic. Buuuut! If Yoshi-P and team do decide to implement Red Mage, I think they will take on the same role as BRD and MCH, but will be in melee range. Refresh could be their Mage's Ballad/Promotion. And who knows, maybe they will have the standard three-skill combo that mixes sword and black magic (Burning Blade > Firaga > Red Lotus Blade) while giving them a very high MP cost cure spell like Paladin's Clemency.