If you could make impovements to Deep dungeon...

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Get rid of the flight item, or at least give a confirmation to vote on before it goes off. So counterproductive.

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Flights are very useful on 41 to 50 and likely will be useful in 51+.

I think for this specific type of content, there shouldn't be a timer at all, but if there is, have it change depending whether your Solo or not- or different types of settings when setting up the Dungeon party that changes the challenge of the game, etc.

I keep looking back to games like Dissidia 012 (labyrinth), Phantasy Star Online, .Hack when I see this content and believe the dungeon generation needs more variety in shape and depth, even in height. Secret paths off map and rewards, multiple Exits to the next floor which actually lead to different version and challenges, etc.
Things that you'd get in an dungeon in a common RPG, like the older Final Fantasy games. ^^"

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Get rid of the flight item, or at least give a confirmation to vote on before it goes off. So counterproductive.

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Flight is very useful if you don't have Fortune and Rage lined up. Exp isn't needed in 4-man parties because it's easy to get through everything. Chest drop chances from mobs are so abysmal that it's not really worth farming floors. Your character level doesn't affect your upgrades, just the floor.

Get rid of this bullshit RNG for real. Thats how you fix this place. Swear to god it's too stupid, can they make anything that's not based on stupid amounts of rng and grinding? - end rage from being ONE stupid point from getting my weapon for THREE DAYS- -.-

If they're going to continue putting more rng content out, then it should also apply to the monthly subscription.

There should be a six sided dice roll when you renew:
Full sub - unlucky
80% sub - not bad
60% sub - lucky
40% sub - very lucky
20% sub - extremely lucky
0% sub - you got it!

Then we'll see how much they like RNG.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

If they're going to continue putting more rng content out, then it should also apply to the monthly subscription.

There should be a six sided dice roll when you renew:
Full sub - unlucky
80% sub - not bad
60% sub - lucky
40% sub - very lucky
20% sub - extremely lucky
0% sub - you got it!

Then we'll see how much they like RNG.

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The hyperbole is so thick I can taste it like butter.

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

It really needs objectives on floors that are not just combat. They pulled all the inspiration from Nyzul, but then they reduced it to what all content in XIV ends up being: straight up combat. That's what Diadem was: a zone full of possibilities from the devs, but it ended up just being an affair of killing mobs over and over for DoW/DoM classes. They've taken Nyzul Isle and turned it strictly into a combat affair. I'd just like the dev team to know that it's okay for DoW/DoM roles to have content where the objective isn't always strictly killing things. You can still have combat in the form of obstacles that get in the way of completing those objectives.

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This. + Lamps

Going to take a break for a couple of days. Hoping the patch tomorrow will include the upgrades.

Went through a 41-50 today with 4 silver chests, all trapped. Not a single upgrade. We all just gave up at floor 49 because it wasn't worth it.

Squaresoft needs to learn how to not turn a game into a chore. Right now, the deep dungeon is just that. No real exciting mechanics or anything. Just mindless button mashing and praying to the RNG gods.

I dont mind Deep Dungeon, its a different way to cap my tomes, but, ARGH! more battle content, really? I want something challenging that makes me use my mind, like a puzzle dungeon, which i thought this would be. But SE has been relying too heavily on RNG content which isnt good, it makes the game feel like a chore, not fun. I don't know the specifics of horizontal progression, but this feels like content that works towards it more. So please SE, we know you can do it.

I'd love it if they expanded the trade in rewards with a few more items, namely things from dead content like the Hunting Hawk. 6+ hour queues and barren markets make items like it impossible to obtain at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Squaresoft

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Squaresoft still exists?

1. Put it in the Duty Finder as well as the PF
2. Remove the RNG - this is a must.
3. Saved every 5 lvls
4. Increase time for light parties (3-1 people) +10/+20/+30mins
5. Introduce decent map UI
6. Introduce decent character UI
6. Make the UI's easily scalable
7. Allow multiple attempts at boss. People need to learn the boss mechanics - which I imagine will get harsher in future levels - so treat these the same as dungeon bosses: fail = retry.

Rng causes widespread player dissatisfaction. It may be acceptable in some cultures, and I appreciate the development team may be from one of these.
But this is the West, with a different outlook on effort v reward. It's just not well accepted here.

Recall Aion's weapon and gear enhancement system - RNG at it's worst. They changed it - but too late. By then scores of people had given up trying to enhance their gear, quickly followed by giving up on the game. Went ftp not long after.

This game shouldn't be making the same mistakes on effort v reward.

The game doesn't cater to just the west, sweetie. They also have to appeal to their own demographics.

I am fine with RNG, it helps keep people coming back but I do feel the % chances need to be tweaked some.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

The game doesn't cater to just the west, sweetie. They also have to appeal to their own demographics.

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Firstly debate the point not the person.
Secondly they can tailor it - they have different activities in different regions.
It's not an unreasonable expectation for content to be suited to geographic cultures.

1) Whoever thought of exploding silver chests should be taken out back and shot.
2) No more exploding silver chests.

It's seriously frustrating.

My change,

How about a wipe doesn't mean wasting 30-40 minutes of your life getting NOTHING, not even XP for your low level class. Yeah i love signing up for things where i put time and effort in and get nothing out of it. That right there is my only complain against deep dungeon. Would i rather queue for deep dungeon and waste 30-40 minutes going through all the floors with the possibility of wiping, or spend that same time in a regular dungeon where i am guaranteed to get rewards....hmmmmm

Listen i don't know what developer for what game company decided that RNG should be the basis of everything in a game instead of rewarding everyone for the same amount of time and effort put forth, but that person i hate with passion and is the single most cause of most complaints in MMO's. It's so disheartening that with most games two people can be running a certain type of content, but yet one finishes sooner because of better RNG, and the other spends countless hours more playing and yet doesn't receive a reward.

You can make it where RNG is a bonus, but not the cause of failure.

I'll give an example with relic weapons. Atmas (or crystals, or whatever the next random drop thing is) RNG should be a bonus, such as you are 100% guaranteed to get the resulting item after lets say 20 fate kills, however RNG might bless you by giving it to you sooner. There should always be a safety net because if you get bad RNG, you get to suffer even though you are putting more time and effort in.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

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1. If they could of put it straight in the duty finder they would have. Clearly there was something on the technical side that prevented them from putting it in the DF to begin with.
2. If you remove the RNG everyone is done in 2-3 runs besides those who want the mount and minions. Making the content die off faster and then you would come back complaining about lack of things to do. Not to mention the RNG helps create some of the challenge, and only needs tweaking not outright removal.
3. Then reduce the time limit from 60 min to 30 min, because if there is no pressure players wont feel challenged. 4 DPS focus firing one mob at a time already reaches the floor boss with plenty of time to spare and thats a save every 10 levels. Solo players are already coming out with strats to let them both level and beat the clock. Make it easier for them to save and they become a lot looser with their strats instead of being challenged to improve their strats.
4. See 3.
5. Map UI is already fine for what the dungeon is, it could use some minor improvements.
6. Character UI is fine.
7. The bosses operate on strict easily identifiable rotations and all use mechanics we have already seen before. The only boss people really need to learn is the current last boss.

You're bitching about RNG, yet the west makes as heavy if not heavier use of RNG then the east. All thanks to psychological studies (done in the west!) which created the predatory mechanics that drive every MMO in existence. One can say the west practically dumped the formula on their heads and the east has been working on refining it.

Then they should have taken their time and got it in the DF before introducing it. This rush to launch unfinished things seems more and more prevalent.
Of course you remove the RNG - doesn't mean everything is gifted to the player. The dungeon rewards can be scaled so players have to do multiple runs without going through and getting nothing, and being aware up front of what the run will reward. This would remove the intentional wiping of groups and also the unannounced quitting - as the rewards are uniform.
Increases in the time limit are completely logical as the party numbers reduce.
Save every 5 lvls. If you're against it, then make it optional. Feel free to ignore a save option if you want - but you wouldn't.
Map UI and Character UI are something out of the 80's Amstrad days - need reworking and the ability to scale them.
What about new players to bosses? Your point flies out the window. How do you know what the boss is going to do if you haven't fought it?
If the boss is using similar mechanics to dungeon bosses - then the consequences should also be the same: fail = retry.

If it was only me complaining about rng then fair enough. However it's not.
The result of rng in this dungeon is filling multiple posts with intentional wiping, unannounced quitting, people asking to be kicked as they've not got anything.
RNG needs removing, and not only from PotD.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Squaresoft still exists?

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It's 1/2 of SE.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

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A new player coming in learns from basic OW mobs while questing not to stand in the aoe on the ground. Which constitutes the entirety of the first boss. The 2nd boss introduces Adds. The 3rd boss is the one that introduces that some aoes are not given a warning marker and need to be figured out, they can look to people who have run the dungeon before on what to do. Though the AoE in question in general has not proven to be bad enough to cause wipes (from what I have seen). The 4th boss shows its a combination of the 2nd and 3rd boss. The last boss introduces LoS attacks, but is otherwise a combination of the previous bosses before it.

Then you got people like me who are willing to toss information at those new if they got questions about a boss. It also helps that guides are popping up on wikis and youtube explaining the boss mechanics that new players can be directed to. The entire japanese playerbase has built itself around helping each other out to learn these kinds of things. Maybe we ought to try emulating that?

Now the problem is you want to remove all RNG. This would mean no traps, no chests, no special mobs, no different floor layouts, no different compositions besides 1 tank 1 healer 2 DPS, because all of those are decided by RNG. In other words it would be a standard dungeon that everyone complains is boring and wanted a change from. Which is in fact one of the most complained about things if you have been paying attention to pre 3.35 threads.

That is what it means to remove RNG from Palace of the Dead. And it quite literally means exactly what I said earlier: the content dies once everyone has finished getting the rewards from it.

You also want to make it uniformly easier, for both parties and solo. More saving more time so that you can farm levels up and be able to ignore a boss's mechanics more easily and if that fails try again.

People only complain about specific instances of RNG related to silver chests, and those instances of RNG are going to be tuned. SE also already said they are putting in a guaranteed upgrade at the floor 50 boss which should help with the intentional wiping/unannounced quitting/people asking to be kicked problem.

We as a community need to also help curb this problem by spreading "Only the exit portal after the boss saves progress! Use the leave command to avoid saving if you did not get an upgrade!" Among the populace. This will also help curb the problem as it spreads farther. Since people apparently do not read the god damn exit portal text.

The Map UI and Character UI are both something aimed at nostalgia given what palace of the dead is based off of, games like Final Fantasy Tactics, Tactics Ogre, the early 16 bit final fantasy games. Its aimed at long time fans of the series like the rest of the game is. Needs some modifications (like the scaling) but does not need a rework.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

If it was only me complaining about rng then fair enough. However it's not.
The result of rng in this dungeon is filling multiple posts with intentional wiping, unannounced quitting, people asking to be kicked as they've not got anything.
RNG needs removing, and not only from PotD.

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Correct. However, people are complaining about the way RNG was implemented in the palace. Randomness is not a bad thing in games, if you can do it right. The number of games without any random factors, be it digital or on boards/cards, is relatively small, yet we play them and still have lots of fun!

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Originally Posted by AsteriaStarfall

You can make it where RNG is a bonus, but not the cause of failure.

I'll give an example with relic weapons. Atmas (or crystals, or whatever the next random drop thing is) RNG should be a bonus, such as you are 100% guaranteed to get the resulting item after lets say 20 fate kills, however RNG might bless you by giving it to you sooner. There should always be a safety net because if you get bad RNG, you get to suffer even though you are putting more time and effort in.

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And THIS is the reason for it. If done correctly - or should I rather say, if done with the idea of keeping frustration levels low? - RNG does not ruin but rather complement a game. Those silver chests we see on our maps? They should make us feel excited, because they are what we ultimately are looking for. Instead I'm seeing myself casting Aspected Benefic on whoever dares to aproach them, because I EXPECT them to explode. I'm actually surprised if an upgrade pops out, even though it should be the other way around, right? Explosions occuring too often and being unpreventable turn out to be unfun, because they destroy the very reason we run the dungeon in the first place.

There are tons of ways to keep randomness on those chests, without making it FEEL frustrating.

1. A triggered trap does not prevent an upgrade. Instead the triggering player is debuffed with something annoying(and by that I mean undispellably annoying ^_^). Make it carry the same impact a lost upgrade has on us. Something that really needs our attention.
2. Increase upgrades required from 30 to... whatever makes sense for your formulas, and make every chest hand out TWO upgrade points by default. Traps reduce the amount received by 1. On average it would be the same as it is now - but since our minds are pretty easy to trick, getting one upgrade on a trap and requiring 60 is OF COURSE better than receiving none on a trap and requiring 30. Yes, we're THAT easily influenced >.<.
3. Trap removing pomanders also remove those pesky trapped silver chests. NO, they won't make those chests accessible, but instead remove them entirely. Also the revealing pomander could mark exploding chests with an effect(and show them on the map too!).
4. Add a really short minigame to the chest's traps. When the trap triggers you get 10 seconds to disarm it. Of course your group will hate you for failing, and complaints about it will definitely rise, so make the minigame pop up for everyone, as soon as they get out of combat.

Anything that makes silver chests feel less aggravating ^_^.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

We as a community need to also help curb this problem by spreading "Only the exit portal after the boss saves progress! Use the leave command to avoid saving if you did not get an upgrade!" Among the populace. This will also help curb the problem as it spreads farther. Since people apparently do not read the god damn exit portal text.

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I tried that one out. It DID however save my progress when I used the leave button =/. Forcing a disconect after a boss fight and restarting the game after 4-5 minutes is supposed to work though, because the game just teleports you ouf of the dungeon and skips the saving portion. I have not tested that though. But I will, as soon as my upgrades decide to blow up again all the time ^_^.

Sorry I can't read all the pages, 15 is really a lot, read the 3 first and lot of interesting ideas, especially with floor themes, job mechanics, like if you have that job in the pty you can open hidden room etc.
But also, what would be cool, is mini-quests stories through certain floors, that would add to global lore, helping us understand the past of Eorzea :) Like having to find notes and read the story to understand what happened and then answer a question to go next floor, or stuff like this :)

I had 10hrs of gameplay ruined by people leaving on level 49 cuz they didnt get a point and lost my 30/30 weapon multiple times because of this. if you cant do anything about them PUNISH THEM 2-3hrs no DF. its only fair cuz they wasted 1hr of 3 peoples time by not being there to complete the final boss without a 4th. ESPECIALLY WHEN HES YOUR HEALER

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Originally Posted by Xelanar

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here are my suggestions:

1) Chests do not explode, but give you a pomander that summons a Gelmorran Spirit that if you do what it asks grants a guaranteed upgrade, if you do not do what he asks he either takes a random pomander from you, summons a Mimic King Mini-boss (that gives a guaranteed upgrade on death), or curses a random chest to be a mimic.
2) Chests ignore arm/armor at the upgrade cap.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8551/2...b4b5d4ed_o.png

This is what happens when your party just finish a fight and then the coffer explodes.

Stairs rather than TP ! So you feel you're going deeper and deeper...
And the feeling you're in a really old underground part of Eorzea.
And not just rush through corridors which doesn't seem to be related to each other, without any meaning at all, any lore.
Guys, you're doing a MMORPG, it would be so much more fun to have real lore hidden stuffs and more immersion...

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8551/2...b4b5d4ed_o.png

This is what happens when your party just finish a fight and then the coffer explodes.

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And this is why it's best to follow the exact path of a single lead player at AoE distance, and only one person at a time opens up chests. Life or death for 4 DPS parties, especially...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And this is why it's best to follow the exact path of a single lead player at AoE distance, and only one person at a time opens up chests. Life or death for 4 DPS parties, especially...

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And heal before chest.

What gets me is when I go into a matched party I always get that 1 person who rushes to the chest while we are fighting the mobs inside either tripping a floor trap or spawning a mimic/blowing it up.

I'd love it if they implemented a puzzle system akin to how some of other Square Enix franchises have. The Crystal Chronicle series and to some extent, the Default series had very basic puzzles that made it somewhat more interesting. My favourites though are the original Crystal Chronicle puzzles and ones from Echoes of Time with the box-pushing-into-buttons, specific actions/spells/items used on items... I think that would be fun :) At least to me anyways.

Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtNHwlJoYh4

Provide a means to or at the least attempt to disarm a booby trapped Silver chest.

I don't know if this has been said or not but I think this should be at the top of the priority list, let us bring in our chocobos dammit!

All these " but if people..." and "rng is ok if people......."

This is the reality of variable rewards:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...f-deep-dungeon
- and these are only the people who bothered posting when it happened.

People who have got lucky in the run meet people who haven't - that is the bottom line of rng - it will dissatisfy people.
That dissatisfaction results in actions detrimental to the group, as this format means the unlucky ones have wasted their time, and furthermore will be faced with more wasted time getting back to the lvl they where at.

I've experienced this, people simply not moving out of the aoe on the final boss, so a +3 run is lost.
You can blame the people - heck there's enough people blaming on here that a few more won't make any difference.

But without a change to the format, this will still continue. That is obvious.

Adding a +1 to the boss will do very little if someone in the group sees others picking up +3 on the way. They'll carry on with their past behavior looking for that kind of luck in their next run.
Report people - If they're smart these people will 'try' to move out of the aoe - oh, and just fail - a few times.
If their not smart and get reported - and? They'll just get cleverer about wrecking the run.

As long as there is random luck in PotD people will take individual action to ensure it doesn't work against them. This is the outcome of RNG in there.
Remove RNG with uniform rewards - still needing several runs to complete - and all this goes away.

Wow, it's like they want it to last more than a day so people don't get things instantly and quit. What a concept!

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Originally Posted by cammi

Get rid of this bullshit RNG for real. Thats how you fix this place. Swear to god it's too stupid, can they make anything that's not based on stupid amounts of rng and grinding? - end rage from being ONE stupid point from getting my weapon for THREE DAYS- -.-

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And what? Make it easier than it already is? It's already too easy for the rewards involved.

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Originally Posted by Pheryx

Wow, it's like they want it to last more than a day so people don't get things instantly and quit. What a concept!

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Crazy, right?

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Originally Posted by Pheryx

Wow, it's like they want it to last more than a day so people don't get things instantly and quit. What a concept!

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No, instead people will get frustrated and quit. You can give something longevity in other ways than by RNG. Like making it fun and not just people button mashing mobs.

The dungeon is just poorly implemented in its current form.

The one thing I would like to see changed is no random spawns (not talking about the traps) in rooms which I am currently in.

Traps are fine, but it's kind of annoying when I'm fighting one or two mobs and then a third one just randomly appears next to me.
(And not talking about the mobs which roam either.)

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

And what? Make it easier than it already is? It's already too easy for the rewards involved.

Crazy, right?

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Sooo.. why are you not talking about the people who had it easy, because RNG gave them upgrades and staying group members?
They are the ones (if only caring for weapon) who are 'done' with this content and quit it.

Why should it be better to have one ammount of players 'quit' soon (those lucky ones) and another ammount of players quit extremly late or are never done....

...instead of having every goup to do roughly the same work.