Forcing NA Duty Finder to be better, we need a grading system.

A few times in other threads I've seen it mentioned that gradually upping the difficulty of class quests/solo MSQ scenarios might work some magic towards improving the skill of the playerbase bit by bit. I think I'd prefer that to most of the suggestions I've seen here and in other threads which only serve to arbitrarily assign a "value" to a person (which is a bit ludicrous given that ultimately, this is just a game).

Things like, removing the raid-boss HP levels and infinite MP spam-heal NPCs from solo instances, and tuning the difficulty such that if you don't perform at LEAST a moderately competent AOE/single-target rotation you will die...that kinda thing. Tanks and heals would have to be given their own quests that focus more on protecting/healing an NPC while still dealing out enough damage so that the NPC doesn't get overrun by mobs or something.

Just spitballing; I've hardly thought about this concretely or anything. Imagine if after the MSQ trial of 3.3, you got a solo instance involving beating a certain someone's ragey side...imagine it being fairly challenging, but extremely epic and rewarding once you cleared, with awesome music and engaging cutscenes. I get that dev funds are limited, but I feel like gradually easing players into performing better and rewarding them for doing well is a much better method than what essentially amounts to a DF-specific blacklist.

The only question I have is where are all these people getting terrible DF groups from? I have been playing this game over a year now and have never truly run into a really bad DF group. Sure some new people here and there just figuring this out and such which may make a run take a few minutes longer, but no really big deal. Again I do not see an issue here. The only thing I see is people who want some kind of grading system or dps meters etc. is to compete with one another and show how wonderful they are. I have seen it in many other games and to me it just destroys the fun in things.

I'd love to see a grading system in place. At least some way to tell who isn't performing as well as they should. However, I can see it being abused by some people in duty finder content. Like harassing the player who is doing less damage than the WHM or the SCH who isn't contributing any damage at all while doing worse healing than the WHM.

But people can just report the harassing player who would rather be a jerk and use offensive language towards other people than giving them proper constructive feedback on how they could do better.

I think you people are making this into something bigger then it really is there are not really that many bad players in the overall player base. Say there 500,000 people playing and 10% are bad players and 10% are elitists that 100,000 of the players still leaves 400,000 people player that are decent-good playing. The bad apples are always going stand out more then good players with the way the community is, it just the way life is in general actually. Slow to praise someone but quick to tell them how much they suck though.

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Originally Posted by MajinkenSouga

I'd love to see a grading system in place. At least some way to tell who isn't performing as well as they should. However, I can see it being abused by some people in duty finder content. Like harassing the player who is doing less damage than the WHM or the SCH who isn't contributing any damage at all while doing worse healing than the WHM.

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It doesn't have to be something shown to the entire party, a simple scoreboard at the end like in PvP would be more than enough. Show personal damage done, damage healed, and damage taken, as well as last week's averages/highs for people playing your job/role. Add in a run time for the dungeon, with last week's average and fastest times.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

I can't play soccer very good, but still I want to take part in every match available.
But I don't want to train, nor do I want any advice or any strategic/tactic jabbering.
I don't even want to know which position i should play... If I want to go keeper, I just do it and if I decide to do that with my hands tied behind my back you should better live with it.
Everyone who tells me how I should hit the ball to make him go where I want or whoever tells me in what direction I have to play is an elitist!


People in this thread.

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You're very mistaken. Nobody in this thread is like that at all. People who offer advice see the word "elitist" and jump on the bandwagon. Offering help is not being an elitist. It's when someone has to be rude and condescending about it. It's when someone has to make fun of someone because they don't agree with how they play and be part of the problem rather than the solution.

Not Elitist: A word of advice, if you stand between the DPS and tank and use the card on yourself, you can give the buff to the whole party (after using extended royal road).
Player: ooooh ok, thanks!
Non Elitist: You're welcome

Elitist: Uh... why are you not giving that buff to everyone else? Seriously, stupid noobs need to unsubscribe...
Player: I'm still learning how to do this, geez... don' be an elitist...
Elitist: No, there is no excuse for that type of play. You should have done your research before playing. You're a burden to everyone in this group. *runs to the forum and tells people that he was called an "elitist" when he was just offering someone help*

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Originally Posted by Brian_

The design of content in this game is fine. It's the systems around it that fail it.

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I'd disagree; whether it's the cause or the effect of it, both the design and the (lack of) systems encourage the mindset of wanting to play how you want (regardless of the detriment to the party), being given a pass for not understanding the basics, or having an absurdly high expectation (through the form of vote kicking for "playstyle differences).

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Our right to play this game how we want and to protect that right is also perfectly fine. That is really the most basic right we all have.

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That's also fine, however it's not always something you'd necessarily always want to encourage or promote the bad behavior (which is reoccurring in these sort of discussions). Because people are often out to assume the worst out of the other (absurdly high expectations, don't want to play with bad people, etc etc) or probably applying it in a broad sense which causes those implications.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

The point everyone misses is that if you want to fix this issue you address the origin of the problem. You don't get caught up in what this topic has become. The origin of this problem has nothing to do with the content. It has nothing to do with player interactions. You go back to before any notion of how we want to play this game is established within our minds and you influence that. It's like Inception -- you have to go deep into their mind, plant an idea at the most basic level, and let it blossom into a result.

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For an MMO, I really do not feel that this is the case. People are already going into the game with mindsets, playstyle, and overall attitude of their own, which is going to change in regards to how the game is presented to them (Moba and team games promote more of a competitive attitude, and a higher interaction with their team, positive and negative, for example). What we have right now is a game that is giving you the information that you need to perform your role, but not actually reinforce it through the content. Solo instances hold your hand for the most part, most dungeons are tuned so low (with very few exceptions, which are optional) that people are never really held accountable. It goes back to my first point which I still disagree with you on; design of the game has a factor on why this is a thing. It's a multitude of factors, not just one.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

It doesn't build a bridge between the two extremes of players. Rather than force a community to sink or swim together, it deepens the fracture between the extremes by breeding more toxicity at the lower end and fostering even more elitism at the upper end. And, what we'll see is playing out in this topic -- the reasonable moderates just get caught in the whirlpool of conflict between "bads" and "elitists."

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This is entirely my point. From my perspective, I'm asking for players to be able to do their 1-2-3 mechanics or not stand in aoe, and I get people telling me that's an elitist attitude or to shove off (both ingame and in this discussion right now). Likewise you have a leafer at level 38 in corn, then you have level capped people berating on them for not using blizzard III. I try to help people get better in instances, espesically when it means that they can play their jobs more efficently and speed up the overall progress, and it's not like I try to come off as condescending, but increasingly, more often than not I'd get told to shove off or they'd straight up ignore me (and typically at that point I usually assume the worst that they are botting when other things are considered), and likewise in this topic. It's like there's almost no attempt to exercise a reasonable judgement inbetween both sides or even acknowledge where the problem actually is (the extremes), but instead applying a broad stroke to every scenario (rather than the exception, but instead both sides are causing those exceptions to become more and more regular from what I see)

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

both the design and the (lack of) systems encourage the mindset of wanting to play how you want

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I didn't know it was anyone else's decision but mine how I play. If that's the case, what triggers a player to ask someone else how they should play their game? Where do we find these people to ask?

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

Another example was back in beta?, the lvl 15 MSQ had people just wiping and so many dead bodies outside. It could be won, so it wasn't impossible. But then release comes and look what we have, an incredibly easy snoozefest version of that fight...

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Glad they improved it.

so pf for learning df for farm?

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

Another example was back in beta?, the lvl 15 MSQ had people just wiping and so many dead bodies outside. It could be won, so it wasn't impossible. But then release comes and look what we have, an incredibly easy snoozefest version of that fight...

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Oh yeah I totally remember that one, had a friend that was having issues with it, the gladiator quests were quite a bit more difficult than release, i think particularly the 15 one. when the game launched i was incredibly confused how much easier it was to complete

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

Not Elitist: A word of advice, if you stand between the DPS and tank and use the card on yourself, you can give the buff to the whole party (after using extended royal road).
Player A: ooooh ok, ...
Player B: stop being an elitist, he is still learning let he enjoy the game!
Non Elitist:....

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Fixed it for you :) And yeah it is basically what happened with me once before when i was in satasha story with a brand new tank and a veteran healer:

...loaded in, tank just keep attacking one add and ignore everything else, with sprout icon so we can easy guess he is new...
Me: tank, you should probably use flash more often, it will help keeping those monsters on you.
....
Me: tank, you need to keep those monster on you too, so they don't attack other. Try iterate through them...
Healer: geez it's ok, it's only satasha, let he has his first experience!
....
.... the run kept going on, we have a tank who only attack one mobs at a time till last boss, then when we downed it:
Me: tank, you really should try to find some guide on tanking in general, it will help in later dungeons.
Healer: you jerk! stop tell him what to do, let him enjoy the game how he want it! *then quit the dungeon*
Tank: eh... who is that tank you keep talking about?
Me: ...
*this followed by me giving him a short description on what are the roles in dungeon, what is the general thing he has to do as tank, plus suggestion to google it or find out more info from fc/forum*

Oh well, so, white knight, please be careful, you might not always be helpful. (What will happen to this kind of player when they get to higher level dungeon, when people are less tolerant? Getting kicked from party or telling off from other player? Will you be there to defense them?)

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Glad they improved it.

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It wasn't improved it was nerfed to a 1 click fight because people couldn't pass it the first time they entered, even though most could. Y'all are the reason this game is such a face roll.

Game was faceroll before I came here, but ease of play is why I started playing.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

I didn't know it was anyone else's decision but mine how I play. If that's the case, what triggers a player to ask someone else how they should play their game? Where do we find these people to ask?

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Go looking for them or be open to response. You keep bringing up hypotheticals where apparently everyone is a elitist; you'd probably wouldn't be receptive to any sort of advice to begin with. It's not just playing a game, but playing a game with other people. Do you not think your opponent would get a bit upset if you're moving your knight in a diagonal shape in chess?

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Game was faceroll before I came here, but ease of play is why I started playing.

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Easy to play or easy to get into? Are you content with people being able do group content by spamming 1 ability over and over and ignoring telegraphed aoes, at level 60? This is important because this is the distinction I'm trying to get people to understand with this sort of discussion.

As I've said before, there are people who do not understand the word, but those people are few and far between, at least from my experience. I know people say your mileage may vary but I see a lot of stories on here that seem so far-fetched.

As far as your experience in Sastasha, it also depends on exactly what you said to Player A. It's easy to take offense if someone does not say something well. I know we're not all wordsmiths but a guy who says he tries to offer advice sounds just like the Elitist I mentioned. Don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing you of anything.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Go looking for them or be open to response. You keep bringing up hypotheticals where apparently everyone is a elitist; you'd probably wouldn't be receptive to any sort of advice to begin with.

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Go looking for them where? Is there a website where you can ask people how they want you to play your own game?

I never said everyone is an elitist. I challenge you to show me where I ever said that. So your ad hominem remarks are a wash.

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It's not just playing a game, but playing a game with other people. Do you not think your opponent would get a bit upset if you're moving your knight in a diagonal shape in chess?

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You're comparing apples to oranges. If I did that, the person might ask why I did that. I doubt they would just jump on the warpath. I don't mad at people over games. I guess that's the difference between you and I.

Then please stop labeling everything as an elitist like you have been. You keep putting it in the wrong context which is why we keep having this boomerang discussion. I sincerely doubt that tank example considered him an elitist, despite being so oblivious. But the healer seemed content with him staying oblivious and that we should let it pass. The tank ended up being receptive to advice and that in general would make for a better community if people encourage and promote good play, rather than bad/obliviousness

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

As I've said before, there are people who do not understand the word, but those people are few and far between, at least from my experience. I know people say your mileage may vary but I see a lot of stories on here that seem so far-fetched.

As far as your experience in Sastasha, it also depends on exactly what you said to Player A. It's easy to take offense if someone does not say something well. I know we're not all wordsmiths but a guy who says he tries to offer advice sounds just like the Elitist I mentioned. Don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing you of anything.

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Yes, and even if you use the best words coated in sugar, for some people they will still find it bitter and aggressive, like why the hell you need to "tell other people how they should play" in the first place? Should we all stop giving advice then and let the clueless continue be clueless?

And you know what will most likely happen if a tank have no idea how to tank get into brayflox or stonevigil, or a healer who do not know how to heal? Most likely they will get kicked cause they cannot adapt quick enough to something they should have practiced in all the lower level dungeons before just because no one told them what they should do so they stay clueless for 15 level. And before you tell me that there will still be people who have enough patient to keep wiping in brayflox and getting through it with those clueless player, ask yourself if DF is such a holy place, if we have that many people like that those threads wouldn't exist?

Apples and oranges are still fruits. If you assumed that the person in chess isn't going on a warpath, why would you assume that sastadha example would have a potential elitist reply despite being given the context of the discussion?

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Then please stop labeling everything as an elitist like you have been. You keep putting it in the wrong context which is why we keep having this boomerang discussion

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I've not been labeling everything an elitist. If you had been actually reading or paying attention, you'd see what I called an elitist.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Apples and oranges are still fruits.

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Spaghetti and Chevrolet are still nouns. What's your point?

Stop arguing for the sake of arguing. Also, you've not answered my question. Where does someone get triggered to go where to look for the person to tell them how they're supposed to play their game?

Bob just finished Assassin's Creed and hobbled his way to Gamestop. He picks up Heavensward and thinks "hmm, this looks fun, i'll give it a go!" He thinks "I like punching things, so I'll try this "pugilist" character." What triggers Bob to say "ok, I need to find Flo Fyloord from Famfrit so (s)he can tell me how to play this game.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

Me: Why are you manually clicking off the balance buff I'm giving you?
BLM: ....
Me: It's a damage up buff
BLM: ....
Me: It only benefits you
BLM: ....

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Fixed.
For the actual incident I experienced yesterday. Three balances wasted.

That's an odd one, randy. It could also be a DF troll. I've heard of and read stories of them. I don't really think I've ran into any other than a Au Ra Paladin in Aurum Vale.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

That's an odd one, randy. It could also be a DF troll. I've heard of and read stories of them. I don't really think I've ran into any other than a Au Ra Paladin in Aurum Vale.

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You've never run into a Bard who doesn't use foe because they think it lowers there dps or a Paladin who doesn't flash because it doesn't do damage? Lucky you then. Im sure they are just trolling but advice is offered said person is scolded even if saying it with good intensions. If these people were graded and clearly saw what they do is a problem maybe it would click.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

I'd disagree; whether it's the cause or the effect of it, both the design and the (lack of) systems encourage the mindset of wanting to play how you want (regardless of the detriment to the party), being given a pass for not understanding the basics, or having an absurdly high expectation (through the form of vote kicking for "playstyle differences).

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Disagree with what? You have a problem in your posting. It's often a bunch of off-point verbal diarrhea. I said the content wasn't a problem, it's the systems surrounding the content that fail it. You just said you disagree but only address the failure of the systems.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

For an MMO, I really do not feel that this is the case. People are already going into the game with mindsets, playstyle, and overall attitude of their own, which is going to change in regards to how the game is presented to them (Moba and team games promote more of a competitive attitude, and a higher interaction with their team, positive and negative, for example). What we have right now is a game that is giving you the information that you need to perform your role, but not actually reinforce it through the content. Solo instances hold your hand for the most part, most dungeons are tuned so low (with very few exceptions, which are optional) that people are never really held accountable. It goes back to my first point which I still disagree with you on; design of the game has a factor on why this is a thing. It's a multitude of factors, not just one.

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Again, totally misses the point. You are trying to address an issue by looking at the result. I am saying that you need to look at the origin. Just look at the reality that the same content can give birth to very different players. You bring up the truth that different people will have different motivations and goals and look at other gaming genres but you don't connect the dots.

Different types of people will play a genre like an FPS, MOBA, or RTS. But, in those games, people generally play to win. They can be bad, play the game incorrectly, be horribly toxic, but at the end of the day, the people who play purely to grief, throw games, and lose are a tiny minority. By nature of fostering a competitive environment, whether it be through a ladder, ranked play, rating, or just game stats, you unify differing motivations and goals into a singular, upward direction -- victory.

It's no different from managing personnel in a company. Everyone is different in what they want to take away from a job and what they want to put into a job. As the boss of a company, your goal is to somehow nullify that variation in motivation and get people on the same productive page. As some very well known entrepreneurs have said, it's sometimes just easier to only hire A players because you eliminate a lot of variance and headache that comes from trying to unify a team of A players, B players, and C players. That's why statics are a thing in this game.

It doesn't matter if you give someone the information needed to do their job or the content to reinforce it if they don't care. What you need to do is make even the most casual player care just as much about the result as a motivated elite player does.

I played a lot of WoW during Vanilla and BC on the largest PvP server at the time. Everyone -- even casuals -- wanted to be geared. The benefits of that gear were massive. Without gear, you were complete cannon fodder to a geared raider. And, because at the time the best gear was all locked behind a massive PvP grind or the hardest raid content, they had to pursue those means for that goal. So, they either had to become a competent PvPer, a competent raider, or deal with getting ganked , camped, and crapped on by people who were those things. When your gaming experience is reduced to grovelling to your guildmates or friends to save you from hours of merciless t-bagging, it's a little hard to not care.

So turning back to FFXIV, what is the goal? For casual players, the extent of their motivation might be to play virtual barbie with cat girls and cat boys. They see a fully geared A8S cleared player and they don't care. That world has nothing to do with them unless there is a cute glamour they want. With that context, how can you reasonably expect them to be motivated to be a better player? Going back to my previous point, the problem is not the content. FFXIV has some of the most challenging raid content in the industry right now. If players wanted to aspire to a PvE standard, it's there.

So, just like I've already said, this grading system doesn't make people care. Why would a bad player care about clearing content a bit slower and with more toxicity? It doesn't get in the way of their ultimate goal. And, it doesn't make good players care about the team because doing so doesn't benefit their ultimate goal. The goal is creating a system and culture where everyone cares about everyone being better at the game because that is aligned with their shared goal.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

It's no different from managing personnel in a company. Everyone is different in what they want to take away from a job and what they want to put into a job. As the boss of a company, your goal is to somehow nullify that variation in motivation and get people on the same productive page. As some very well known entrepreneurs have said, it's sometimes just easier to only hire A players because you eliminate a lot of variance and headache that comes from trying to unify a team of A players, B players, and C players. That's why statics are a thing in this game.

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Facing the main point first, yes majority are casuals. Yes most won't ever reach the standard of the top raid. Yes there's a unification necessary for the player database but currently there is no unification, there is nothing but continual daily repetition of the negative space you see in this thread. 416 pages don't lie about the type of people you will face in duty finder.

If you manage a company with all staff aspiring for their own goals with one common denominator, that would be money. Money being most akin to a parallel to our game, we all need to work with various people to buy gear, glamours, crafting materials, housing furniture and minions with eso tomes.

If your team is incompetent, you would kick him. If your staff is incompetent, you would give him a warning and if he's not doing any better, you will fire him.
What would the fired staff do? They've been fired and their record if asked, would show they have been fired from their previous job.

Moving back to the money denominator, we live in a class-based ranked society. Do you want more money than the person who cleans your bathrooms? Yes? Ok I'll need to spend time studying in university to hopefully get to the stage to make the money I wish. Do I want even more money from there? Yes? Ok I will study a higher level of education for the managerial position for further progress up the chain and earn more money.

What separates the classes and occupations? The knowledge, experience and skills honed through the years of training.

Paralleling this, time spent on learning your rotations and skills will yield you better numbers and better efficiency in playing your class as you tone your skills necessary for the content provided. The mental capacity is also very apparent from a raider and non raider when I do duties (myself being a non-raider). The rewards in games for their skills is the unique gear they get and the skills they possess.

Moving back a step again back to the class-based real life parallel, would you choose a person with 0 education to help you with your daily work as a manager? Does a manager have the skills to be a janitor?

Moving back further again, yes, this is just a game. Yes this is our leisure activity but that does not mean we all need to be mediocre at what we do with no incentive of improving. No advancement in life or a game will lead to stagnancy and many of us feel that the current system is stagnant.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Disagree with what? You have a problem in your posting. It's often a bunch of off-point verbal diarrhea. I said the content wasn't a problem, it's the systems surrounding the content that fail it. You just said you disagree but only address the failure of the systems.

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The design of the content goes in hand with the system (or lack of). If the content allows below-minimal play to be passable, it falls onto the system and community to address it.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

So turning back to FFXIV, what is the goal? For casual players, the extent of their motivation might be to play virtual barbie with cat girls and cat boys. They see a fully geared A8S cleared player and they don't care. That world has nothing to do with them unless there is a cute glamour they want. With that context, how can you reasonably expect them to be motivated to be a better player? Going back to my previous point, the problem is not the content. FFXIV has some of the most challenging raid content in the industry right now. If players wanted to aspire to a PvE standard, it's there.

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The content I'm referring to is anything that isn't a raid or EX trial (normal mode trials, roulettes and 24 mans), or even side content like aquapolis, diadem or the soon to be palace. I'm really not sure how to word it anymore to get my point across because I feel like I'm repeating myself. The content is designed to allow players to essentially to psuedo-afk and let the burden fall onto the 3, 7 or 23 members of the party. In your example of someone playing only for the glamour, even something like going into a dungeon would require party play to acquire something they want. However as of now, they can do that without any investment into playing the game properly if the party is willing to put up with it. You mentioned that a player doens't have to worry about being better or playing in a toxic environment because it won't get in the way of their goal (acquiring glamour or tomestones) because both the content (they can be carried) and the system (limited kicking/policing) allow for it.

I've lost my train of thought now after being away for the entire day, I'm just gonna end up repeating myself again so I'll bail out.

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Originally Posted by MihaelB

Moving back to the money denominator, we live in a class-based ranked society. Do you want more money than the person who cleans your bathrooms? Yes? Ok I'll need to spend time studying in university to hopefully get to the stage to make the money I wish. Do I want even more money from there? Yes? Ok I will study a higher level of education for the managerial position for further progress up the chain and earn more money.

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First, let me start by saying I agree with everything you wrote here.

Second, I feel I need to remind you that we're living in a society where people that work at McDonald's went on strike and demanded they get paid $15/hour, actually got it, and then were surprised AF when companies started rolling out automated kiosks for order placements.

Those two points addressed, I would very deeply like to see the lowest common denominator be increased and improved so that everyone gets higher quality players in their dungeons whether they actually care about that or not. (Nobody would ever, in their right minds, complain about something that is better. Nobody would say "I'd prefer it if this was worse than how it is." ... at least I'd hope not.)

However, in regards to a ranking system, I believe this is something that would make the duty finder much more enjoyable for people on both sides of the spectrum. Better ranked players would on average be grouped with similar, better ranked players. On the other side, lower ranked players would be grouped with other lower ranked players. You'll inevitably find the outliers in both groups who are disgruntled with where they're currently ranked, and their actions and performance enable them to adjust their own ranking to be more in line with their personal preferences. New players are automatically ranked at a middle ground. If you don't know how ranked systems normally work, take a look at things like Matchmaking Rating used in MOBAs (Overwatch's director goes into pretty good detail on their forums about this) to get a better understanding of how those systems actually work before you, not anyone in particular, start spewing your nonsense about how awful they are. Queue times shouldn't be the excuse everyone uses to prevent better systems from being implemented.

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Originally Posted by Klamor

First, let me start by saying I agree with everything you wrote here.

Second, I feel I need to remind you that we're living in a society where people that work at McDonald's went on strike and demanded they get paid $15/hour, actually got it, and then were surprised AF when companies started rolling out automated kiosks for order placements.

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I think is why a number of us also want chocobos to be allowed in duties, our chocobos can be more reliable than a good portion of people we meet.

I want personal ratings, not tied to DF exclusions, or gaining/losing points from kicks or commendations, just a simple you did X damage and didn't take much damage = SS rank, no need to publicize it, no need to get into the endless argument of parses, just a simple "you did well" or "you didn't do so well" so players know there's room for improvement.

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Originally Posted by Klamor

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You also have to consider the bad that would go with this system as well and can it prevent that bad behavior from repeating itself.

I am not talking about bad gameplay skills but also mentality of a player for being S, A, B, and etc.

Never forget that back in early 2.X era that people did use PF to create learning parties but the issue of people with "better" skills ignoring players new to the old contents grew out of control because they felt their time was only worth using with other players who cleared the content and are skilled enough to burn through the content fast. It was not until the Punishment for quiting a DF run early and Bonus for helping new players were introduced that it died down a bit but that did not elimiate the issue completely as people found ways to get around the punishment through requesting being Vote Kicked or just holding the entire group hostage in the dungeon with them until they are Vote kicked or someone Leaved themselves so they don't have to face the Punishment.

A middle ground will be required to prevent such mentality from taking over S and A rank player base or else we faced with this issue once more where people are left behind because they could not meet "expectations" nor perform task the way a certain player within S and/or A rank would have done things just because they're new to the content even though their skills are atleast at A rank, B rank, or C rank.

A worse case scenario this system may promote groups of S/A rank players to look down on B Rank or C rank players and have these B Rank or lower players "Kicked" from the group in hopes of getting another "S/A" Rank Player or the entire group or one of the S/A Rank player quits the Dungeon because they did not get a full group of S/A Rank players.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

(stuff).

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Just this, seriously.

Just a simple rating system like you see at the end of stages in a lot of games that tells you how well you did (as long as it can be calculated well, that is.) so that people will definitely be aware if they could use improvement, and it could be motivation for some, wanting to move up to A or S rank from where they generally get at dungeons and such.

But none of the exclusionary "people are only matched with those of their rank" crap, because that hurts what DF is as a whole and can cause more splits in community. It is not something like competitive PVP. MAYBE the system could prefer to match people of close rank but it is not guaranteed (like how it apparently prefers to try matching a more balanced group of dps if possible before just going with both dps being melee, or both being BRD/MCH, etc. Dont take my word on that as I dont know how true that is, but you should get the idea regardless) if you are so inclined to force the bads away from you completely (even though that can never happen)

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

The design of the content goes in hand with the system (or lack of). If the content allows below-minimal play to be passable, it falls onto the system and community to address it.

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No, it doesn't. What you look for in content is something that looks nice, plays well, and is polished.

Just look at any RTS game. The content is the actual RTS aspect of it. If you just released a game like SC2 with nothing more than the basic game-modes, it'd be a fine game. It's a pretty game, the combat system functions well (aside from complaints stemming from complicated issues like MBS, unit collision and pathing, etc.), and it's pretty bug free. But, it's systems like ladder that utilize the content and changes our approach to it. Suddenly, because winning or losing has a real impact on our ranking, some people will start to care a lot more.

FFXIV's content is fine. It's a sufficient sand-box. We're just not given much of a directive. Take the DF system for example. 90 minutes to clear some crappy dungeon for some loot and monetary rewards (gil, tomestones). That system is incredibly bland when it could be so much more. You say the content is hand-holding and allows for bad play. No, the content doesn't do that. Take that same content, and change the DF system to only give you 10 minutes to complete Sohr Khai. The content didn't change. But, using the system, you've changed our experience with said content completely.

You could easily put in more dungeon objectives. And, best of all, you can release more of them over time to keep people interested in old content. Of course, the content itself needs to leave room for those objectives but like I said earlier, the content is generally a sufficient sand-box. You can have basic objectives like "clear with no deaths," "clear in under 15-minutes," "kill all enemies." Then you could have content specific objectives like "defeat Moglin without allowing any moogles to be revived," "defeat the horse boss with all borders broken," "defeat Hraesvelgr with 7 platforms remaining." The system can easily dictate how we interact with the content.

But, as with what you constantly do, this is getting caught up in the unimportant. The important thing is actually making people care about and want those objectives to begin with. You could lock the rare minion drop, the TT card drop, and the orchestrion roll behind the completion of a certain number of objectives. You could give scaling monetary rewards based on objective completion (more objectives more gil and tomestones). You could give achievements and titles. But, I think there will still be people who just don't care.

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Originally Posted by MihaelB

Facing the main point first, yes majority are casuals. Yes most won't ever reach the standard of the top raid. Yes there's a unification necessary for the player database but currently there is no unification, there is nothing but continual daily repetition of the negative space you see in this thread. 416 pages don't lie about the type of people you will face in duty finder.

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Why are you trying to use that thread as evidence to back up your disdain against less skilled players when a large portion of that thread is about elitists and self proclaimed skilled players ruining runs too. A lot of the posts in that thread are about people who think they are skilled being just as much responsible for creating what you call 'the negative space'. Outside of trolls, botters and RMT the next most negative element of this community is the elitists who look down their noses are casuals and the less skilled players.

They are less patient, less forgiving, less likely to go out of their way to help others unless they have something to personally gain from it (mounts, tombstones, achievements, gil or minions etc), more prone to rage quitting when things do not go the way they wanted or if was a wipe or two. Trying to punish others because they are not as good as them and trying to segregate/split the community between themselves and the people they hate so much because those less skilled are a slight inconvenience to them once in a while.

Your original idea is a prime example where you want to actually punish others by extending their queue times if they are not a high enough grade plus segregate them so you won't have them infecting your zone of self proclaimed skill/awesomeness. Maybe you would like it if SE added a new emoticon/animation which mimics spitting on the casuals who cant click a mouse/button as fast as you while your at it...or maybe you would prefer an auto kick from groups towards anyone who has a disability and because of it struggles more than you do in memorizing rotations or due to their disability they lack the same level of motion control/responsiveness.

I've seen this grading system before and it's horrible, if anyone ever played any fighter online this is basically the same system they use to determine ranking. I've seen this heavily influenced in DoA 4+5 as well as SF 4 to name a few fighters, and it created toxic lobbies, lopsided fights and lead to increased boosting. These are issues we already have presently and something we need less of, adding a superficial ranking system doesn't do anything. If you don't believe play those fighters I mentioned, or even any shooter with a ranking ladder. Simply because Person A is a "top rank" doesn't mean they're going to preform at that level 100% of the time. Do you know how many games of Halo 5 I've logged since I got it roughly a month ago where I seen players at level 100+ go negative? Where I a much lower level (28 I believe) out preform them.

You're fighting a battle that you'll never win, that is spread across multiple genre of games. The moment you stop and realize this you'll be in a better place, players are going to play how they want irregardless of what you or I want.

The age old solution to this issue is play with people you know play well, if you don't have those people find them. It'll make your experience all the more better.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Why are you trying to use that thread as evidence to back up your disdain against less skilled players when a large portion of that thread is about elitists and self proclaimed skilled players ruining runs too. A lot of the posts in that thread are about people who think they are skilled being just as much responsible for creating what you call 'the negative space'. Outside of trolls, botters and RMT the next most negative element of this community is the elitists who look down their noses are casuals and the less skilled players. They are less patient, less forgiving, less likely to go out of their way to help others unless they have something to personally gain from it (mounts, tombstones, achievements, gil or minions etc), more prone to rage quitting when things do not go the way they wanted or if was a wipe or two. Trying to punish others because they are not as good as them and trying to segregate/split the community between themselves and the people they hate so much because those less skilled are a slight inconvenience to them once in a while.

Your original idea is a prime example where you want to actually punish others by extending their queue times if they are not a high enough grade plus segregate them so you won't have them infecting your zone of self proclaimed skill/awesomeness. Maybe you would like it if SE added a new emoticon/animation which mimics spitting on the casuals who cant click a mouse/button as fast as you while your at it...or maybe you would prefer an auto kick from groups towards anyone who has a disability and because of it struggles more than you do in memorizing rotations or due to their disability they lack the same level of motion control/responsiveness.

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Have I ever mentioned I possess disdain towards less skilled players or whether I'm an elitist player? No, don't put labels on me. I'm a non-raider and if this system was to be integrated, I'd be a E-C player due to my latency which I'm well aware of is a problem.

I'm well aware of my limitations as a player and I put in the time to do the research to improve which I am in dire need of. Anyone can look up my stats on parsing websites and see it's below average.

Do I want to play with players who are equal skill to me? Yes.
Do I want someone to be punished for being drunk and high on drugs while playing? Yes.
Do I want someone to be punished for being intentionally idiotic all the time in Duty Finder? Yes.
Do I want to play with people who have so much disabilities and struggles that they can't even push out basic rotations? No.

I'm not a bleeding heart activist with my time I spend in my leisure, I waste it playing a game to have fun. I do not find carrying people who have 0 incentive to improve fun. At least with a grading system, I'll be able to carry myself out if I desire to put in the time to learn something and I'll fall down below if I don't.

If I want to get drunk and high whilst playing this, I would go make a party finder. 'DRUNK BISMARK, COME DRINK WITH US' and if you have an extreme known disability that detriments your game play, maybe you should reach out to people who are willing to help you instead of the assumption of being carried by strangers.

Some people are gifted and will be good without trying and the same goes for the people with disabilities. If you don't possess the natural skill to do something, you need to put in the extra effort to reach those who do.

Clearly OP you have too much time on your table . It's not the first time it was suggested and if somehow it does, it will divide the community even more.
Yes, we play for fun and treasure our time doing so.
I don't see a clear purpose to this as long as you have ls available and you can clear, play however you want with that group .
There is 0 point in adding that system in any game as it would stir up more than you can take.
But then again, you can write nonsense on forum, as it just an opinion and it will remain only that.

If you're not able to make some connections in a game , might better find a solo and not a mmorpg instead of bashing and always complaining how the community should be graded by performance. If you know a little history, you would know that is not a good thing to request or enforce. Then again, it is a democracy and everyone is entitled to suggestions, but only that : Don't force your ideas on a whole group, it might backfire .

You're leaving out the cause of bad players.

I honestly do not think that people are bad at this game because they are incompetent.The problem with this game seems to be more that the game is easy all the time.You get into the game, do some dungeons but never really have to use your brain or try your best.You can get through this game simply by being brain afk.There is no skill level required to reach level 60.N-O-N-E. If anybody is trying to tell me sub lvl 60 dungeons are anywhere near hard then you must be kidding me.

People act as if challenge is a bad thing."Oh no this content is forcing me out of my comfort zone because it makes me try, nerf please!" and boom things get nerfed.If anybody wants to somehow get rid or around the flood of bad players then the only way to do so is to make the game more challenging, more unforgiving.

And please don't pull the "But we're just playing this for fun, not to be good at the game" thing on me because if you do you are an egoist.I see so many people leaving when they get nidhogg on the roulette because they know it's probably be a wipefest.One bad player can ruin the fun for others.

I don't see this game having a bright future if things continue this way.


Oh btw: I'm stuck at nidhogg because of people who can't even follow simple instructions like killing the enemy marked with a 1 first.
We're even wiping at the DPS check.
BAD PLAYERS ARE RUINING MY EXPERIENCE

@Exidrial
Again, you don't have to clear something using df, that's not the purpose of the df.There are linkshells for hunts, for raiding, for clearing content. I really don't see how you people still disregard this option and only cry wolf at the df. Yes, you will find new players in the df and some which come across a challenge will leave the party.
And still I don't quite understand how you can generalize to include most of the player base because of your experience with df groups.Most of us don't even use the df or use it only when we don't have enough people on. But instead of providing actual help and tips before the pull it's made, better to cry wolf on forums , cause why not?
This is why we don't have nice things in rl and ig , cause there is a bunch of people which refuse the social aspect of a Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game and use the time in actual clearing , finding or making a bond with people in a game to rather bark at a tree.
Wake up and smell the roses, the world doesn't revolve only on a few select and bare in mind that it's a privilege to play and nothing more.
And on a more friendly note : if you really are not able to find parties in pf or ls or even muster the courage to speak with people which might struggle with the same step, speak up ig and not on forum . The ideas might be good and nice to have, but to have them implemented it will take plenty of time , in which the energy you waste to type and be angry can be used to actually play the game.

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Originally Posted by Exidrial

You're leaving out the cause of bad players.

I honestly do not think that people are bad at this game because they are incompetent.The problem with this game seems to be more that the game is easy all the time.You get into the game, do some dungeons but never really have to use your brain or try your best.You can get through this game simply by being brain afk.There is no skill level required to reach level 60.N-O-N-E. If anybody is trying to tell me sub lvl 60 dungeons are anywhere near hard then you must be kidding me.

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To be fair, they are easy now that everyone overgears the content by so much it's not even funny. Forcing veterens into lower dungeons by rewarding them tomes is a blessing and a curse. Now we ignore mechanics and younger players learn nothing. We speed run dungeons that these players would have previously had to work hard at. SE is definitely to blame, but it's not because they didn't design content with challenge in mind, it's because the content is now so overgeared (and level sync is kind of broken) that we blatantly ignore everything the dungeons were trying to teach us.

So what's the answer at this point?