Yoshi - Players who "Like" Challenges would ALSO like to obtain a Relic Weapon

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Originally Posted by Reaperking386

That is what raiding is for.

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While partially true, the raids are too demanding for a lot of people. For me, good luck finding people on just starting for midnight. And there is challenging enough content, raid or not, waiting to be used, but instead they're forcing the most mind-numbing of all of their content on everyone. And so there's no incentive still between casual and hardcore to actually excel.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

@Reilyn, with that argument it again just boils down to people stamping their feet

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Oh yeah sure, let's use metaphors to paint people with opposing views to you as children...

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

and wanting to do the relic how they see fit.

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Aaaaaaand...? In case you haven't noticed, that's pretty much what they were going for with the current relic quest's design, but they still missed out on appealing to large groups of players with it.

There's something wrong with people not wanting to sit through multiple flavors of a mind numbing grind we've mostly done to death for the past half a year for a weapon that's confirmed to be outdated very shortly after most even get it at a normal pace...?

Well excuse us for wanting to do something that takes a bit more effort, and rewards an appropriately higher amount of progress toward the relic for actually demanding more from the player.

According to you, asking for the relic to be done as we see fit is asking too much of the quest line designed with the goal to be done as we see fit, so I think I'll just refrain from responding to you now.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

This relic isn't a challenge though, it's redundancy.

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Patience is a challenge. Judging by the feedback on these boards it is one of the greatest challenges. Redundancy is not mutually exclusive to challenging. In fact some of the greatest challenges to mankind have been insanely redundant and conquered.

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Originally Posted by Reilyn

There's something wrong with people not wanting to sit through multiple flavors of a mind numbing grind we've mostly done to death for the past half a year

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Um, extreme trials and Binding Coil are even older content than Alexander? You're asking for the same "mind numbing grind" but with content that's been here a lot longer than the current.

First people are asking for all new content, then people are asking for a shorter grind, and now people are asking for the same grind but just with a different set of activities that are already implemented. SE can't win, there's always going to be someone complaining because the relic isn't suited to them.

The player base doesn't just want something that "takes a bit more effort" but most people want the relic changing altogether. Not to mention a lot of the player base are perfectly content with how the relic is now, so speak for yourself.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

First people are asking for all new content, then people are asking for a shorter grind, and now people are asking for the same grind but just with a different set of activities that are already implemented. SE can't win, there's always going to be someone complaining because the relic isn't suited to them.

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Stop lumping all the "people" into one collective group then. Doing 3.x primals and trials would have been a far better alternative than reusing 2.x content that's been in since...well, 2.x.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Stop lumping all the "people" into one collective group then. Doing 3.x primals and trials would have been a far better alternative than reusing 2.x content that's been in since...well, 2.x.

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I'm not "lumping" people into a collective group. What do you want me to call them, aliens? My whole point (which you missed) is that everyone wants something different and no matter what SE implement someone is going to be unhappy.

Also, I'll stop using collective groups when people stop using the word "we" as though everyone shares the same opinion. Split those groups I mentioned into three and two will still be unhappy if this was to be implemented.

Anyway, over and out, have a good Christmas everyone. :)

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Um, extreme trials and Binding Coil are even older content than Alexander?

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I was referencing alex normal and lvl60 dungeons for law tomes as things most people don't want to do to the degree the relic quest demands after doing them for the past months.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

You're asking for the same "mind numbing grind" but with content that's been here a lot longer than the current.

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OP used running older unsynched content as an example for challenging players, and suggested rewarding people more progress to their relic for doing them than what they grant now.

I suggested rewarding more progress toward relic weapon for doing alexander savage since most of the playerbase wouldn't give alex savage a second look otherwise.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

First people are asking for all new content, then people are asking for a shorter grind, and now people are asking for the same grind but just with a different set of activities that are already implemented. SE can't win, there's always going to be someone complaining because the relic isn't suited to them.

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Yes they can win, by making more options, and appealing to all sorts of players. AKA: fufilling the intention of the relic quest design. Don't make excuses for SE.

Also, the solution to the problem isn't mutually exclusive with the other options we already have. Design-wise, It's as simple as:

-You can't do difficult content? Do the current grinds
-You can do some challenging content such as A1S at least? Congrats, you're awarded with 50 of each precision token for clearing that floor for the first time since accepting the relic quest

Everyone wins.

Now answer me this: who is made unhappy by this change, and how? Actually answer this before you go on. Name a demographic in game that would be rubbed the wrong way by a change like this, and back it up. I'm pretty sure you can't.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

The player base doesn't want something that "takes a bit more effort" so speak for yourself.

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1: Good job on invalidating yourself by claiming to speak for the playerbase.

2: *Looks at OP's upvotes* Hmmmmmmmmmm...

I'm speaking for myself too, but I'm not the only person who likes the current relic either. Up votes don't really mean anything, by the way, as most people come to the forums to complain while the satisfied players are playing the game. I'm done replying though, good luck getting this implemented.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Up votes don't really mean anything, by the way

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It means that your statement about the playerbase not wanting it is inherently wrong actually.

Now are you going to run away from this question again?

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Originally Posted by Reilyn

-You can't do difficult content? Do the current grinds
-You can do some challenging content such as A1S at least? Congrats, you're awarded with 50 of each precision token for clearing that floor for the first time since accepting the relic quest

Everyone wins.

Now answer me this: who is made unhappy by this change, and how? Actually answer this before you go on. Name a demographic in game that would be rubbed the wrong way by a change like this, and back it up.

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On that note, I'm sure people who don't like challenging content would also like to get an easier but more time consuming way to get the raid weapons, especially when it comes at the same time as the content itself.

So why not make the next Alexander Savage weapons grindable via tokens from normal mode?

It's only fair to have a way to make the hard way easier but longer if you can make the long way harder but shorter.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

On that note, I'm sure people who don't like challenging content would also like to get an easier but more time consuming way to get the raid weapons, especially when it comes at the same time as the content itself.

So why not make the next Alexander Savage weapons grindable via tokens from normal mode?

It's only fair to have a way to make the hard way easier but longer if you can make the long way harder but shorter.

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Not sure if you're trying to mock earlier suggestions, but that is something you can't do.

We already seen the effects of putting gear and weapons on par with items from the hardest content in less challenging content through diadem, and to a lesser extent, relic weapons; raid participation goes down due to a lack of incentives, and even yoshi admits to diadem's 210 gear being a major design error for doing just that. Relic being on par with gordian (or surpassing it entirely for certain classes) is effectively the same thing.

So yeah, don't count on it.

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Originally Posted by Reilyn

Not sure if you're trying to mock earlier suggestions, but that is something you can't do.

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It is precisely what is being suggested here applied to the other end of the spectrum. Mostly to see whether that would "rub anyone the wrong way" if people see it from the other side. It's an easy way to spot hypocrites.

Personally, I'm all for letting more challenging content drop tokens for the relic as well, because you should be empowered to do more challenging content to progress if you so please. It should just not be any faster than the other way. And if you now ask:"What's the point then?", you are really asking what's the point of challenging content in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

It is precisely what is being suggested here applied to the other end of the spectrum. Mostly to see whether that would "rub anyone the wrong way" if people see it from the other side. It's an easy way to spot hypocrites.

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Well again, diadem, and relic chain are examples of what would happen if your bait became reality already as well as it being a confirmed hiccup in design, so I'm not sure how many people would really fall for that.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Personally, I'm all for letting more challenging content drop tokens for the relic as well, because you should be empowered to do more challenging content to progress if you so please. It should just not be any faster than the other way.

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Aaaaand why people shouldn't be rewarded more for doing challenging content...?

And it would be incorrect to say it would necessarily be faster if it provided greater speed, at least if handled responsibly. Even if it was allowed from some unsync'd old content, you still need a lot of coordination and skill that is going to take up much more time than your average Alex/Beast Tribe/whatever nonsense you choose to swarm.

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Originally Posted by Arashmin

And it would be incorrect to say it would necessarily be faster if it provided greater speed, at least if handled responsibly. Even if it was allowed from some unsync'd old content, you still need a lot of coordination and skill that is going to take up much more time than your average Alex/Beast Tribe/whatever nonsense you choose to swarm.

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I'm not too crazy about running old synched content idea myself; it needs to be handled perfectly, or else it would be abused for instant relics for no effort.

I'd be okay with making people jump through a1s at least for a large reward in 3rd step progress to a relic weapon. The game needs more incentives to get people raiding again.

By not doing so, putting some of the best 210 gear in diadem, and making the most efficient method of getting your relic equate to do anything but raid alexander savage, it's like they really don't want people doing alexander savage anymore or something.

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Originally Posted by Reilyn

Well again, diadem, and relic chain are examples of what would happen if your bait became reality already as well as it being a confirmed hiccup in design, so I'm not sure how many people would really fall for that.

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If you give people two choices and they all prefer one over the other, even though they yield the same rewards, it begs the question why even offer the choice nobody prefers. After all, it needs enough support to validate the development ressources put into it.

You are currently painting a picture of raids being pointless content that should be discontinued. Is that what you want? I'm sure it's not. But that's what you are arguing here. I would fix it if I were you.

As for the latter question: What is more valuable, your limited time on earth or your skill in a particular video game? And which would you rather part with? The answer is subjective of course, but in my opinion, investing time should always be rewarded more than skill.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

Patience is a challenge. Judging by the feedback on these boards it is one of the greatest challenges. Redundancy is not mutually exclusive to challenging. In fact some of the greatest challenges to mankind have been insanely redundant and conquered.

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But it's not, no one has patience because the content isn't fun. Even if it were fun the grind is excessive, taking the limited fun out of all the areas they allow us to use to compete it. Put it this way Shakespeare is fun for a brief moment but would you really want to read Macbeth or Romeo and Juliet 800 times? Poe is more dark and frightening of readings but again 800 times with The Raven or The Bells isn't fun. The content needs to be in abundance and entertaining for a grind like this to work.


It's like they're pulling a Phantasy Star Online Episode 1 and 2 with this level of grind. But the difference between that game and this game is PSO E1 and 2 actually had environment, music and a hefty amount of side quests that all counted toward the grind of gear. Not to mention hidden items that required combinations of items, you want that chu chu fever? Better go get to level 101, have a chu chu mag and a spirit garment. In this game? Want that shiney weapon? Kill Faust 8000 times and then buy 45 items that cost 500 tomes a pop then fight Garuda at 5pm eorzean time with a full party of no double classes. Congrats on your shiney.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

As for the latter question: What is more valuable, your limited time on earth or your skill in a particular video game? And which would you rather part with? The answer is subjective of course, but in my opinion, investing time should always be rewarded more than skill.

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But that's assuming no time went into developing that skill, which isn't the case. This is time already spent, and having to re-spend with each expansion as new abilities, rotations, classes, BiS stats, enemy mechanics, etc. are introduced. Effectively under the current design the relic is far more rewarding to someone who only recently just got to 60, and by the time they complete they're going to be 190/200 in all else, and they could be watching Netflix the entire time, whereas those of us who are on the cusp and wants more challenges but can hardly find a thriving venue are left with unfun choices. It invalidates all of the time for non-raiders, whether by choice or by just not having the time/life resources to throw at it, from 3.0 all the way up.

So basically what you're saying is that you want an alternative to the crafting aspect of Anima? My highest DoH/DoL is a 42 MIN, so coming from someone who doesn't craft or gather AT ALL I see this as a new challenge I'm gonna have to spend a little time on.

So, for some people Primals and the 3 Coils are easy. I think to set up such a huge alternative along with allllll the other alternatives they give the player would basically give everyone a relic on first day. (Then the issues on the forum would be about how easy it is to get relic!) I'm not backing the "gonna take time" arguement, I'm backing the "git gud" arguement. Now, I fall into that category cause I'm gonna have to go level crafting or sell expensive runs/clears, like I said I'm far from a crafter.

But if that means I get, what OP called, "... weapons that almost every FF fan would like to obtain." Then I'd rather put in actual work than whine 'cause it's too easy for everyone to get a relic.

Where's the fun in it if you can just go out and get it?

The current framework already enables people to get the Relic in less than a week of starting the quest chain. I fail to see how expanding the framework (players doing whatever they want, at their own pace) to include more options (something they've done in the past already) is suddenly going to cause further problems. Make it so only 3.x trials and raids can contribute (with rewards dependant on the content type/difficulty), so then you don't get people doing unsynced Coil runs. Or if you include Coil runs, impose a restriction like minimum ilvl only with the weapon equipped, stuff like that.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

You are currently painting a picture of raids being pointless content that should be discontinued. Is that what you want? I'm sure it's not. But that's what you are arguing here. I would fix it if I were you.

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Wow. You either totally misunderstood what I've wanted, or didn't read anything.

Everything I suggested was to create incentive to raid, because there's not enough of it! How did you manage to miss all of my suggestions to put more rewards in alexander savage for this very reason?

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Originally Posted by Zojha

investing time should always be rewarded more than skill.

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Amazing... you actually believe this...

Because it's not like getting good at what you do, or coordinating with a team takes time or anything... (sarcasm)

I don't think I should bother talking about this to you at all. I will never understand your line of thinking if you believe people who do nothing more challenging than beast tribe dailies long enough are entitled to the same rewards as people who spend weeks practicing teamwork, and strats with 7 other people.

Any chance you see why I found this amusing now, Reilyn?

Some of the points I've seen raised in opposition here... geez...

Grinding for a relic isn't the issue. It's the content that's being used. It's recycled ideas like a majority of things in this game. The only thing that stays "new" is story and a flashy new primal from what I see. But I digress, back to Relic...It's meant for long-term and in the end will probably be BIS due to custom stats(which btw, better stock on Materia cause SE doesn't know different ways to implement stats), it WILL be obsolete upon the following patch.

What happened to our Zeta? I'll refresh your memory. It got turned into Crystals. All that time and effort put into getting the relics back in ARR, gone instantly to do a recycled quest for a new relic. XI's idea had multiple relics going for it. IIRC, none of them required the other to get anything done. Dynamis, Mythic. And any others I may have missed were all their own thing. Dynamis Relic was BIS for a looooooooooong time and even now, still holds a place of its own. These relic weapons also do nothing special besides looks. That's it. At least in XI, there was something Unique for the weapons you held.

This long grind for some stats that will just get replaced by another weapon. There's no attachment for this grind. This no attachment for any of these rewards in game. As the game progresses it just feels more and more empty(mind you this is just my opinion). Everything can be done so quickly and I understand the game is catered towards that..But because how long some of the things took to do in XI...At least there was always something "worthwhile" to do. But again, this is just my opinion.

I'm sorry for anyone that feels that content designed for any and all players can somehow alienate those of you who focus on only the hardest tasks in the game.

And by "I'm sorry" I mean "thank you for the laugh".

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Originally Posted by Dotsusama

I'm sorry for anyone that feels that content designed for any and all players can somehow alienate those of you who focus on only the hardest tasks in the game.

And by "I'm sorry" I mean "thank you for the laugh".

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Pretty much this. They gave us so many options to alternate. While there is a specific route if you want to do it efficiently, which is nearly the opposite of fun, you can't say that no one finds the relic enjoyable.

Personally? I actually would've preferred the relic to be a little grindier

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Pretty much this. They gave us so many options to alternate. While there is a specific route if you want to do it efficiently, which is nearly the opposite of fun, you can't say that no one finds the relic enjoyable.

Personally? I actually would've preferred the relic to be a little grindier

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Welcome to the internet where there is no "I don't like it" and instead there is "no one likes it, it's the worst thing ever, and it's actually literally evil."

What i dont understand is why can't they make the relic questline fun?

In 1.0 you have to do hamlets(the grindy part)
Then materia meld a weapon
then do speed runs of av/cc(which speed running dungeons, did at first take a bit more planning in 1.0 compared to 2.0)
then do a unique(to each relic weapon) leve quest that was kinda challenging/hard
then defeat garuda with 0 deaths
then kill ifrit extreme and you got a relic.

Now its just fate grind/dungeon grind/old content grind.


Which one of those sounds more fun to you?

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Originally Posted by Molic

What i dont understand is why can't they make the relic questline fun?

In 1.0 you have to do hamlets(the grindy part)
Then materia meld a weapon
then do speed runs of av/cc(which speed running dungeons, did at first take a bit more planning in 1.0 compared to 2.0)
then do a unique(to each relic weapon) leve quest that was kinda challenging/hard
then defeat garuda with 0 deaths
then kill ifrit extreme and you got a relic.

Now its just fate grind/dungeon grind/old content grind.


Which one of those sounds more fun to you?

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You never did Garuda Ex or Ifirit Ex. It was Hard mode at the time.

Personally whilst I don't like that there is such a grind involved in the last step of the current Anima questline, and that specialist crafting shouldn't have a place in content that is intended to be done by anyone, that there is a place for rewarding skill without leaving those that aren't as capable unable to complete.

An idea for any future grindfests could be that:
More difficult content gets you a greater amount of overall progress towards completion, trading some of the time requirement for skill on part of the player.
Weekly tokens such as those from Savage Alexander or Void Ark (or equivalents) could be traded in for relevant items (if said grind is item based as it is currently), thus indirectly trading time in one sort of progressing for ease in another or otherwise making use of tokens that you have no other use for once you've finished gearing up.
If you have to make use of crafted or specialist items (and also gathering if we're going down that alley) then have it be optional but have a decent payoff, allowing those that want to quickly buy their way or make a profit do so without making the community groan at how their progress is gated by greedy crafters putting required items up for extortionate prices (which isn't a fault with crafting per se, but is one of the things that specialist crafting is going to make worse).

In closing, these are my opinions and whilst I understand that it was the intention of the dev team to have this fill the time between patches as something to do, I've felt that it's timing was either simply too late or that they felt that only releasing the steps up to I200 first then releasing the I210 step now (or with 3.1) was undoable.
I do appreciate the work the dev team does, and hope that they improve future steps in this questline.

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Originally Posted by Reaperking386

You never did Garuda Ex or Ifirit Ex. It was Hard mode at the time.

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I never said garuda was EX, i said it had to be killed with 0 deaths. and ifrit was the extreme mode....

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

Make it so only 3.x trials and raids can contribute (with rewards dependant on the content type/difficulty), so then you don't get people doing unsynced Coil runs.

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Would you be happy if Savage will give you 2 precision items instead of 1? probably not. If you give 50 of them - it'll be just a shortcut for a few, and relic never meant this way.
Relic always was a trial of patience and efficiency, equal to everybody (except probably the very first step) and a way to reinvigorate old content.

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

This long grind for some stats that will just get replaced by another weapon. There's no attachment for this grind. This no attachment for any of these rewards in game.

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Relic always was a status item in FF14, not the most usefull item. It always came when another weapon on the same level was readily available and already farmed out by average hardcore groups. There is no real benefit to switch one 135 weapon to another with minor improvement in secondary stats in long-farmed content.
Relics always treated as a proof that person capable to withstand associated grind. The same as with SCoB Savage titles - no real benefit, just a proof of your ability.

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Originally Posted by Felessan

Relics always treated as a proof that person capable to withstand associated grind. The same as with SCoB Savage titles - no real benefit, just a proof of your ability.

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It's fine being that. But it should be more than JUST that. It shows your patience and determination. However, that patience and determination should also be rewarded with something great. Not something easily interchanged or replaced.

If you enjoy hard stuff and you're good at it then you will get better weapons than the relic with less time spent.

This relic scares you off when you first see the requirements but it's not that bad once you start it. I already have more than half of the items required in the last step without even playing all day. People it's not that don't let that long list scare you. With a "normal" gameplay speed and time you can get it in 2-3 weeks. With some extra effort even less. Next step of this relic comes in 3.25 and 3.3 so the next step is pretty away from now if you consider we will get 3.2 in February and 3.25 will come 1 month after 3.2.

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

What happened to our Zeta? I'll refresh your memory. It got turned into Crystals.

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Not really.
Maybe gameplay wise. But lore wise it changed the owner and the new owner gave you the crystals.

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

It's fine being that. But it should be more than JUST that. It shows your patience and determination. However, that patience and determination should also be rewarded with something great. Not something easily interchanged or replaced.

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Why should it be better than equipment people obtain from conquering the hardest content in the game?

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Originally Posted by Reaperking386

You never did Garuda Ex or Ifirit Ex. It was Hard mode at the time.

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hes talking about 1.0 relic, you are talking about 2.0 relic

as yoshi said, they will never ever implement challenging content again, because way too less people completed the 2.0 relic and they want to give everyone the chance to obtain it with some time effort

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

There are already enough ways to obtain the relic. You can do beast tribe quests, Alexander, law tomes, poetics tomes, and allied and centurio seals. This gives people a pretty good choice of how they want to obtain it.

You can still complete all of the extreme primals and coil and get tomes in the process, therefore it's still a way to obtain the weapon, whether it takes a while or not.

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Ok then. You know that all these "choice" are outdated content? If you think it's funny to grind things with old content that you have to do 800 times, good for you.

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Originally Posted by Felessan

The same as with SCoB Savage titles - no real benefit, just a proof of your ability.

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It's not a good example since now you can do every old content unsynched and still get the rewards and titles. It's not a proof then since it's really, really easy to do it unsynched.