Suggestion - Paladin Identity and new stance?

Keep in mind that the more you pigeonhole a role with certain aspects, the bigger the point of failure (POF). Having one POF is never a good thing.

-DPS checks rely on everybody but the 4 DPS are your main POF.

-Heal checks like that seen in AS1 rely on everybody (AOEs,positioning) as well, but the POFs are primarily the healers and tanks (managing damage mitigation CDs, either limited self sustain or support options for the party).

-Tank checks rely on tanks properly maintaining cooldowns in preparation for massive hits along with being topped off by a healer before hand.

-With the point I am making death is a mechanic that is in play for every fight and
has 1 point of failure if you are not running a summoner.

Obviously the healers job to provide big heals with a side of DPS and that should remain such, but death is something that other roles that lean to support side should at least be able to assist with. I honestly think that bards and machinists (phoenix down packed bullet anyone?), are prime examples of classes that lean support side that should get battle revives as well.

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

Can I put one little extra tid bit out there. Everyone is talking ONLY about end game raid utility I feel. But let's not forget that we can find uses in the lvl sync'd dungeons below lvl 50 as well. Cure stays with us as a cross class skill; Clemency does not. Not saying end game dungeons and raids aren't important, but let's also not forget how crippled a low lvl PLD that's lvl sync'd is in comparison to their counterpart tanks.

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This is actually one of the considerations which made me so upset when they changed Shield swipe the second time, taking off the GCD.

Post 3.0 changes (addition of enmity bonus to Shield swipe), Bulwark gained MASSIVE utility, even in lvl 50 dungeons and under. Instead of just popping it on CD, you could plan to use it for big pulls. Shield lob > Flash > CoS > rotate RoH combo with Shield Swipe between every primary move, alternating each Enmity Gen move onto a separate target. This created an instant increase in aggro and dmg output on mob pulls while maintaining dmg mitigation by rotating RoH and pacification. You barely even needed Flash, and Tp management (on mobs only, mind you) was not an issue.

Post 3.1 changes (Shield Swipe taken off of the GCD) Pld's get a MINUSCULE dps increase on bosses, but take a huge dps loss on mob tanking on top of reduced aggro and mitigation (less pacification). Tp is suddenly a HUGE issue, even with regular mob pulls, because there are no interruptions to your primary rotation besides Flash. Bulwark and Shelltron have been had their utility cut in half (again), and are basically used on CD now... It's a mess.

The gains Pld's get in boss fights by taking Shield Swipe off of the GCD don't even come close to the harm it does to mob enmity/dmg/mitigation and Tp management, especially in sub 50 dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Februs

This is actually one of the considerations which made me so upset when they changed Shield swipe the second time, taking off the GCD.

Post 3.0 changes (addition of enmity bonus to Shield swipe), Bulwark gained MASSIVE utility, even in lvl 50 dungeons and under. Instead of just popping it on CD, you could plan to use it for big pulls. Shield lob > Flash > CoS > rotate RoH combo with Shield Swipe between every primary move, alternating each Enmity Gen move onto a separate target. This created an instant increase in aggro and dmg output on mob pulls while maintaining dmg mitigation by rotating RoH and pacification. You barely even needed Flash, and Tp management (on mobs only, mind you) was not an issue.

Post 3.1 changes (Shield Swipe taken off of the GCD) Pld's get a MINUSCULE dps increase on bosses, but take a huge dps loss on mob tanking on top of reduced aggro and mitigation (less pacification). Tp is suddenly a HUGE issue, even with regular mob pulls, because there are no interruptions to your primary rotation besides Flash. Bulwark and Shelltron have been had their utility cut in half (again), and are basically used on CD now... It's a mess.

The gains Pld's get in boss fights by taking Shield Swipe off of the GCD don't even come close to the harm it does to mob enmity/dmg/mitigation and Tp management, especially in sub 50 dungeons.

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Yea, I was upset with that as well. I used to bulwark mobs all the time and like you said, use it inbetween other combos. 15 seconds isn't that bad though. But I REALLY hate it when I can only use bulwark to set it off once. It's still decent mitigation at least. Just a pain as I'm waiting for a normal block to occur just to use it. Nothing's more infuriating that see's I have a bunch of blocks that I can't take advantage of due to cooldown, but the second it's done, I get nothing for a bit. BUT, it's not the end of the world for me. Just required me to change up my tactics a bit.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes, it can be useful, but most of the time, you can skip any cast of Clemency without having any effect on the outcome. That's why I say it's not relevant

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That's fair, but for me this is what makes it relevant.To me, Pld's uniqueness (or part of it's identity, if you like) is the way in which a Pld can strengthen it's fellow party members. Most of the time, that strengthening comes in the form of defending them (which is why Divine Veil was such a fantastic addition to the Pld skill set), but it is also found in the way in which a Pld can essentially "lighten the load" for the other party members. In that regard, Clemency is outstanding, because no matter how you use it as long as the cast goes off, you are lightening the load off of the healers. Any time a healer has to divide their attention between multiple wounded part members, but finds that the Pld has used clemency to help out (even if the cast was too slow and all they did was self heal a bit), that healer can breathe a little easier. It's not meant to be a saving grace or secret weapon, it's meant to be a tool that pld's can use to make the entire fight go a little smoother. In that regard, clemency could not be more relevant.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You could still deactivate your oath to retain a "basic" DPS output. Of course, you'd be doing less that nowadays, but it wouldn't be your goal. Remember, I imagined the healing stance to allow you to skip one healer to bring an additional DPS. Because what is important for DPS check is the overall DPS. If the party can output the same DPS, it's not important that PLD is really low personally.

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Not quite, and that's not the end of the problem. A Str reduction effects all physical output, that includes your auto attack. To maintain baseline Dps would mean literally never using your healer stance... so why have it?

Skipping out on an extra healer with the Pld picking up the slack doesn't really make sense either. I mean, bringing an extra dps definitely addresses the dps problem, but ... why bring the Pld then? If Pld plans on off tanking in healer stance for most of the fight to help the healer and keep up with raid dmg, wouldn't it make more sense just to bring another healer and do away with the off tank entirely? Whm paper tanking isn't exactly a new concept as it is, and has been done before (it was actually required, albeit briefly, by T9's triple golum mechanics).

Bringing the Pld would make sense for fights that require 2 tanks (say, A1, for example), but then the Pld could not be using their "healer stance." If they try to tank in their healer stance, their DPS goes down by default because mind does nothing for a tank's dmg output, and that's not even the worst part of the problem. The real problem is enmity generation.

Pld's have the lowest enmity gen combo out of all 3 tanks (originally slated as such because of the traditional 1-2-3 RoH rotation that had no interruptions. They didn't really need the same multiplier as War's, since they had no variety in attacks). This has actually been proven using... erm... mystical methods.... and the actual numbers have been outed in a few forum threads before. Reducing a Pld's Str by swapping it's value with Mnd in a healing oath would reduce a Pld's enmity even further. Using the "healing oath" while on Main Tank (especially in cutting edge raids where the Dps are likely to have high spec gear) would be extremely risky. The Pld would have to focus their RoH combo even more just to maintain threat. This means less goring blades (less dmg output), less RA (less dmg output), and less helping (even if you were healing... that's still less dmg output, because you'd be interrupting your dmg rotation for each spell you cast) because each spell cast would risk losing enmity.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Det doesn't scale with STR, it scales with everything. So, Det would apply to our healing potency, which is the exact focus off the healing stance.

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Det actually does not apply to healing output. It only helps input. The definition is: "increases the amount of damage dealt by all attacks including auto attacks, weaponskills and spells. It also increases the amount of HP recovered by spells." This means that the more Det you have, the more Hp a healer can recover to you by healing you, but it literally does nothing for your own healing potency with the exception of specific Pld abilities that are directly tuned to Str for this exact reason (Flash and Clemency). Meaning that swapping Str with Mind would effectively cut off your Determination bonuses from Str accessories. They wouldn't help with dmg output, and they wouldn't help with healing output. It would become a wasted secondary stat.

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

Just required me to change up my tactics a bit.

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It's definitely still workable... but the problem for me is that it is wildly inefficient compared to the 3.0 way. Mob aggro and Pld dmg on mobs has taken a massive head dive thanks to this, and Tp consumption is worse now than it ever was. The only solution is to spam more Flash, which reduces your dmg output even further. You can no longer plan your use of Bulwark (Because you only get one Shield swipe out of it anyway), and in boss fights the 15 second cooldown actually works against shelltron, because they don't line up and shelltron is longer.

It also killed the varied playstyle that Pld's had the brief opportunity to experiment with. Using Bulwark+shield swipe, you could hold aggro on mobs even if you were rotating a different combo than RoH. After your initial pull and grab rotation, you could start using goring blade while holding enmity using shield swipe. It was still better to use RoH (for Dmg mitigation purposes) most of the time, but if the healer could handle the extra output you had the option of helping the Dps instead... you can't really do that anymore unless you're overgeared. Taking out the frequency of Shield swipe pretty well forces the Pld to use RoH and Flash only (like the old days), and even if you are overgeared and can work a full dmg rotation (which I still admittedly do often) you run the risk of redlining your Tp if the Dps can't keep up. Then you're back to Flash... RoH.... Flash... RoH....Zzz...

About the only good thing about this was that it increased Pld Dps against bosses... who use physical attacks... and only by a tiny, unnoticeable amount... In all seriousness, I am truly fine working with it the way it is, but that doesn't mean that I'm not a little baffled that SE would make changes to our class which actually set it backwards compared to the way it was. It's like they thought we were OP like War's or something...

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Originally Posted by Februs

Not quite, and that's not the end of the problem. A Str reduction effects all physical output, that includes your auto attack. To maintain baseline Dps would mean literally never using your healer stance... so why have it?

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No, not never. Like any competent healer know when he can DPS and when he can heal, a competent PLD would have to know when to use its healing stance.

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Originally Posted by Februs

I mean, bringing an extra dps definitely addresses the dps problem, but ... why bring the Pld then?

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The problem is that, now, there's not reason to bring a PLD. With that idea, if you have a PLD in your roster, you can build an efficient setup (DPS wise) with it. And a PLD is far more sturdy than a healer, so less likely to die. And if he could raise in battle, it could also help greatly.

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Originally Posted by Februs

If they try to tank in their healer stance

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Short answer, they couldn't.

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Originally Posted by Februs

Det actually does not apply to healing output. It only helps input. The definition is: "increases the amount of damage dealt by all attacks including auto attacks, weaponskills and spells. It also increases the amount of HP recovered by spells."

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Yes, recovered, not received. Your healing spells always "recover" HP.

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Originally Posted by Februs

This is actually one of the considerations which made me so upset when they changed Shield swipe the second time, taking off the GCD.

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I'm still convinced that Shield Swipe should have been changed into War Drum...with a decrease in potency.

First off, tbh, i kinda half expected ya to just ignore it, so i appreciate that you took the time to elaborate and i think i have a better understanding of where you're coming from.

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

You keep saying brez will break the game if a PLD gets it because they are not a healer class.

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Just a clarification: I do feel that way about improving PLD heals in general. With brez, its not so much "PLD is not a healer", its more "PLD is a tank". Brez becomes more valuable the harder things take a turn for worst, and tanks can take extremely hard turns, so hard sometimes, that they can break 'normal progression'.

To me, having brez on only the squishiest of classes makes sense because for party-wide mechanics, your group only survives if the squishiest also survive. BLM I think would be fine to have brez from a balance standpoint IMO, but only if umbral ice wasnt a thing.

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Clemency is ok. It can get a PLD out of a pinch but isn't sustainable in battle at a constant rate.

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^ This is where I argue "PLD is not a healer". Why should you be able to sustain it? Anytime you heal another player, you prevent a healer from healing. There is already so little to heal, that healers DPS.

I also feel compelled to say that if a tank and healer dps, it doesn't take away from dps' obligation or ability to maintain high dps.

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I'm saying, not every class was given the cross class ability and not able to use it.
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Tell me. How many other classes got new skills that simply covered up the mistakes of their cross class skills (and not even that well).

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I agree with you in the sense that PLD cross-class options are terrible, I dont agree with the solution you support. I also wouldnt say that they gave you those skills to cover up bad ones, but if we're just listing new skills from HW that are comparably better than useless/near useless cross-class skills, off the top off my head:

WHM:
Ruin -> Stone III
Blizzard II -> Assize
Physick -> Tetragrammaton
Surecast, not even a replacement

SCH:
Blizzard II, not even a replacement
Cure, not even a replacement
Raise, not even a replacement
Surecast, not even a replacement

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Do you believe that it is okay to have a skill that can't be used? Because that is exactly Raise atm without the battle trait.

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I do not think its okay, but that doesnt make your supported solution balanced.
Physick and Ruin are useless to WHM. It isnt justification to buff them.
Raise and Cure are useless to SCH and AST. It isnt justification to buff them.
Also, while it isnt fair to have a skill that cant be used, it also isnt fair to have a trait that cant be used. What would you give WHM in exchange?

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Would paladin be OP with brez? No.

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Why?

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I would like to see how often could one paladin using brez save the party from something like your Ravana example.

So the paladin manages after 8 sec. to raise one healer, drained and in a sorry state, while taking hits. How does the recovery go from there? Even if you had two paladins. I can't see how would the healers manage to recover anything on regular basis.

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Ravana isnt exactly healing intensive.
Insta-heals, MP skills, and even Pots are easily available on rez, not like they need to be used during the add phase.

Paladin would not be OP, because:

1) Other jobs can ressurect dead party members.
2) Paladin can't cross-class swiftcast.
3) Hallowed ground doesn't prevents all damage, it prevents most of damage, so mechanics that are supposed to wipe the group always wipe the group.

As you are concerned with paladin stepping on healers' toes. Have you thought that WHM would need a new trait? I bet it would mean decreased cast time for Raise, making battle ressing paladin even less good in comparison.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Other jobs can ressurect dead party members.

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Other jobs can do a lot of things, like a 400 potency AoE.
What sets brez apart, should you get a 400 potency AoE while we're at it?

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Originally Posted by winsock

Other jobs can do a lot of things, like a 400 potency AoE.
What sets brez apart, should you get a 400 potency AoE while we're at it?

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8 seconds of cast time at price of 50% MP on job whose role is to be hit in the face.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

8 seconds of cast time at price of 50% MP on job whose role is to be hit in the face.

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On a class that excel at not dying and relies very little on that MP bar. You're out 2-3 skills realistically by the time u hit 0MP, and all of those skills are situational

But again, what makes brez so special? SMN can do a lot of things PLD can't do and neither can brez with Raise.

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Originally Posted by winsock

On a class that excel at not dying and relies very little on that MP bar. You're out 2-3 skills realistically by the time u hit 0MP, and all of those skills are situational

But again, what makes brez so special? SMN can do a lot of things PLD can't do and neither can brez with Raise.

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All the cross-class skills except Raise can be used, they might not be effective, but they are usable. Raise is the only one that can't be.

Right now paladin is behind other tanks so every little bit of additional utility helps. Battle Raise wouldn't change much, but it would be a step forward in making paladin more desirable for groups.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

All the cross-class skills except Raise can be used, they might not be effective, but they are usable. Raise is the only one that can't be.

Right now paladin is behind other tanks so every little bit of additional utility helps. Battle Raise wouldn't change much, but it would be a step forward in making paladin more desirable for groups.

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Raise is useable, just not during combat. There are situations that can occur where it would be useful for PLD to cast raise out of combat, most involve party members doing something stupid, but there are at least circumstances where it is beneficial. A WHM should never cast Physick or Ruin.

WAR is preferred over PLD bc it can meet the survivability requires of endgame while dealing more dmg. How is brez remotely a step in the right direction for solving this issue? Lol you'd be better off with that 400 potency thing from earlier.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Raise is useable, just not during combat. There are situations that can occur where it would be useful for PLD to cast raise out of combat, most involve party members doing something stupid, but there are at least circumstances where it is beneficial.

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Except that no Paladin has Raise set as a cross class skill enabled because they cant use it. So the PLD would have to change their cross class skill configuration, wait for the skills to finish the GCD from the switch and then raise. Since they obviously have at least CNJ to use raise, it's quicker to switch to CNJ and do it and then switch back. I know, because if I find someone needing a raise, I have to do one or the other, and it is more straight forward to switch to my WHM.

I'm really not understanding why you ferl the need to stretch the limits of credibility to somehow prove Raise outside if battle is worth anything on PLD, when it absolutely is not.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Why?

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We already told you why.
People wont chose PLD over any other tank because of this.

Since you like asking question, let me ask you one : Since "surviving" and "maintaining" enmity is only the basic requirement of a tank, what do you think PLD should offer on top of that to be on par with WAR and DRK ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

/cough Protect
/cough Stoneskin

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Stoneskin didn't change, graniteskin did. Also, if you remember SE's reasoning on protect: it was changed because they where worried that proshell would reserve a position for the WHM in endgame parties.

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Yeah...and removing PLD will remove all complain about PLD...maybe you could try real examples, for once...

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PLDs still complain about prot and stoneskin. Brez is not going to stop them from complaining either and certainly won't in unbench them from endgame.

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You question just seems weirder and weirder...And I won't answer it, because:
- If I say yes, you'll just say "Oh, my god, are you insane, you want everyone to be able to raise in battle ?!"
- If I say no, you'll say "Oh, why are you discriminating other classes ! You want PLD to be the special snowflake !!!"

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^ close.
If yes, I would have posted something like: there is no point in having a discussion about brez because we well never agree.
If no, I would have had you clarify what factors you consider when determining who should and shouldn't have brez

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We already told you why.
People wont chose PLD over any other tank because of this.

Since you like asking question, let me ask you one : Since "surviving" and "maintaining" enmity is only the basic requirement of a tank, what do you think PLD should offer on top of that to be on par with WAR and DRK ?

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Ha, my own idea has factors I don't particularly care for but tell ya what, answer the question I posed to you from before about whether or not everyone should have brez and I'll let ya know.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I'm really not understanding why you ferl the need to stretch the limits of credibility to somehow prove Raise outside if battle is worth anything on PLD, when it absolutely is not.

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It was in response a claim was made that raise is a crossclass skill that couldnt be used. It absolutely can be and there are scenarios that occur in game where it would be useful, but they're so few and far between that most PLDs would rather take something else. In contrast, a skill like Physick should never be cast by a WHM.

Also, this is the 3rd time you've avoided my question. Call me crazy but I prefer 2 way conversations. What would be the smallest buff or set of buffs that you believe would make PLD OP and why? Or if its easier, what factors do you take into consideration when deciding whether or not something is OP? I still question whether or not you have a line drawn anywhere.

Your exact words were "* SE letting a class have a skill does not automatically imply that the class should have a more powerful/useful version of that skill."
Well guess what, letting someone cross class Protect gave them the most powerful version of that skill at 3.0. And now, every job can use the most "potent" Stoneskin effect, even if it's after a nerf in potency.
And it's still stupid that CNJ and AST need a trait to be able to Raise in battle, whereas Arcanist don't.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Also, if you remember SE's reasoning on protect: it was changed because they where worried that proshell would reserve a position for the WHM in endgame parties.

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Hmm, strange, they're worried about a single job having a de facto spot on every setup...I wonder where I have read that on the tank forum...well, I'm sure I'll remember.

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Originally Posted by winsock

If yes, I would have posted factoring like: there is no point in having a discussion about brez because we well never agree.

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Yes, because you'll keep saying that it'd be a game breaker. But I'm pretty sure you wouldn't chose a PLD over a DRK or WAR in the current meta even if the PLD could Raise in battle.

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Originally Posted by winsock

answer the question I posed to you from before about whether or not everyone should have brez and I'll let ya know

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I already answered your question, but you have decided to not accept it. So, I'll say it again. No, not every job should be able to use Raise in battle...because not every job is able to cross-class it.
But every class should be able to if they chose so and if they were ready to sacrifice everything that their job offers to stay a class.

Your turn now.

Oh, and by the way

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Originally Posted by winsock

Also, while it isnt fair to have a skill that cant be used, it also isnt fair to have a trait that cant be used. What would you give WHM in exchange?

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What did the other jobs receive when WHM was granted a new Stoneskin at level 50 ?

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Originally Posted by winsock

Raise is useable, just not during combat. There are situations that can occur where it would be useful for PLD to cast raise out of combat, most involve party members doing something stupid, but there are at least circumstances where it is beneficial. A WHM should never cast Physick or Ruin.

WAR is preferred over PLD bc it can meet the survivability requires of endgame while dealing more dmg. How is brez remotely a step in the right direction for solving this issue? Lol you'd be better off with that 400 potency thing from earlier.

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What?! Just. No. Sure, that random downed guy in the middle of the map for taking something on they shouldn't of really appreciates the occasional PLD carrying around raise to get them up. But want to know what's not that hard as well? Clicking that teleport button and then teleporting back to where you were if you need to be there. VERY often, the person who's dead waits longer for a res than it would of taken for them to just return and teleport back. As was said by Kosmos as well, it's faster to just switch classes if you don't already have Raise on your cross class (and for them to wait for you to do such, it would once again be quicker for them to teleport out and run back ironically). I know you were arguing this for arguments sake. Please stop doing that.

We have all said MANY times over the course of this topic, we aren't looking to be another WAR and push out more DPS. This is a step that we're looking at for more situational utility that will give us a separate and individual identity. We have an identity we can't explore because the game limits us form being able to.
They basically push healing and support on us, but then don't let us use it.

Yes, we realize every class has some crappy cross class skills. Ruin will never be a good cross class skill. Skull sunder will never be a good cross class skill. Savage blade will never be a good cross class skill. We get it. We get that some cross classes have multiple that aren't useful. Arcanist physick and ruin are both useless to a WHM or a BLM. We know. But Virus and Eye for an Eye have good use and CAN be utilized. CNJ cross class skills for a PLD cannot be utilized because of the fact that this game doesn't allow the cross class between magic use and physical use. What if WHM was connected to a gladiator instead?
Imagine a WHM's reaction if they saw their available cross class skills for that.

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Savage blade - wtf? I can't use that!
Flash - oh lordy! Why would I WANT enmity?!
Convalescence - Uh, I guess not bad. I mean, i'll heal myself better. Whoop whoop.
Provoke - WTF! I don't want Odin Senpai to notice me!!
Awareness - Uh. Sure. Why not.

And then let's say THM stayed as their other cross class. So in effect, you'd have surecast, blizzard II and swiftcast available to you now. Now you're sitting there going, uh. I'm having a tough time picking what cross class skills to use because the last 3 picks seem useless to me. Other than Surecast and swiftcast, everything else is... subpar. Maybe convalescence. Doesn't hurt. uh, i guess blizzard II incase enemy mobs come at me? It won't help... but, i guess it won't hurt. Damn, too bad i don't get that umbral ice boost. Uh, now what filler should I use? Guess awareness... for that rare chance where I get attacked by a mob that's going to crit hit me a lot. I'm sure this will be handy. Or maybe flash. I'll blind them.... at the cost of gaining their attention. What could go wrong? *sarcasm*

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You could switch it with Marauder.

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Foresight - Oh, I could use that for when tank loses enmity to me.
Skull sunder - What?
Fracture - DoT, yay. Oh. I have to whack them with my cane to use it... nvm.
Bloodbath - uh. Sure?
Mercy Stroke - Yay! 20% hp back! Oh. Cane whack again. And it'll barely do any dmg with my stats. USELESS!

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Lancer perhaps?

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Feint - Ok, another close quarter cane whack. But at least it'll slow them.
Keen flurry - I'm sure parrying will work great while I cast magic. Should be as useful as my shield. Oh wait.
Invigorate - Oh boy. I can recover from sprint quicker.
Blood for blood - not bad.

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I understand WHM also has some pretty cruddy cross class skills, but it could be worse. You could get nothing out of one of your cross classes (like PLD's).

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Oh, and by the way

What did the other jobs receive when WHM was granted a new Stoneskin at level 50 ?

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In fairness, StoneSkin 2 is nothing more than a QoL upgrade for StoneSkin casting. granting it to WHM should not merit any gifts for other jobs, the ability of the WHM to cast SS on everyone in the party at once is sufficient reward for the others.

Damned daily posting limits....

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Apparently, à QoL that only WHM deserve.

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Well, on the flip side we lost GraniteSkin as WHM, so StoneSkin 2 kind of makes up for that a bit...

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

In fairness, StoneSkin 2 is nothing more than a QoL upgrade for StoneSkin casting. granting it to WHM should not merit any gifts for other jobs, the ability of the WHM to cast SS on everyone in the party at once is sufficient reward for the others.

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Apparently, à QoL that only WHM deserve.

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

I understand WHM also has some pretty cruddy cross class skills, but it could be worse. You could get nothing out of one of your cross classes (like PLD's).

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It's actually an ongoing joke in my FC that Pld's have "O type" blood.They are the universal donor in FFXIV. They hand out skills to many... but can't really take anything useful from anyone. Hell, some Pld skills are pretty much essential for other tanks to even tank higher end content. All tanks need Provoke. Warriors use flash as a Tp conservation skill for Mob aggro (usually as a, "whoops, I accidentally used Overpower too much" move). "Awareness" has more utility for Wars (especially with the addition of Raw intuition) than it ever had for Pld's. Convalescence is damn amazing for any tank (Wars, in particular, get the most benefit because it stacks with Defiance).... the list goes on.

What do Pld's get in return? Um... Fracture? I guess. That's good for melee dmg and shares a CD with Convalescence, so... why not? Mercy strike? Sure... a tiny increase in dps never hurt anyone... (well, it does by definition, but you know what I mean) Stone skin? Definitely. Self buffing is always nice, especially if you have lazy healers who refuse to buff you ... like, ever. Protect? uh... well... I guess. Healer would have to be REALLY lazy to not use that one though. Cure? Yup. For those moments when you run out of TP and literally have nothing else to do

It's not to say that Pld's get zero utility out of their cross class skills. Stoneskin, in particular, used to be essential for making fights with high dmg'ing cleaves (like T5 or 9) go more smoothly without draining your healers Mp pool, especially when they were still cutting edge content, and Fracture is kinda okay for auto attack mitigation... kinda... but those are two moves. More than 50% of my cross class skills could be empty slots and it wouldn't make a difference to my rotation or dmg mitigation.

Give Give Give.... and never take.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, not every job should be able to use Raise in battle...because not every job is able to cross-class it.
But every class should be able to if they chose so and if they were ready to sacrifice everything that their job offers to stay a class.

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^ just to point out, that no job can crossclass brez. What things do you take into consideration with balancing brez in general? For example, if you're at SE, the game is currently in development, crossclass skills arent a thing yet, and you're tasked with deciding who should and shouldnt receive brez, who does it go to and why?

The reason I ask is because i'd like to know your opinion on how brez should be balanced in general. SE could give anyone brez if they wanted to, who should receive it?

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What did the other jobs receive when WHM was granted a new Stoneskin at level 50 ?

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Not having to wait for the healers to cast stoneskin over and over again in some scenarios just to get the fighting started lol.

To be fair
PLD, AST, and SCH did receive proshell.
We lost 18% stoneskin.

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Your turn now.

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As I was saying before, there are things I really dont like about my idea and as such, im not trying to sell it or say that "this is the way you fix pld!!11!!11". I will say, the balance issue with PLD is pretty complicated. But since you're curious as to what I think about it, my initial thoughts were:

* it probably shouldnt be a direct dps increase , can probably be fixed without one, and not increasing its dps directly keeps it very different from WAR.
* it should probably increase party dps to make up for its lack of dps.
* the party dps increase shouldnt be able to surpass WAR.
* it would be cool if VIT were a thing.

What I came up with was a change to block mechanics, where blocking applies a debuff to the target that lowers their dmg resistance. The strength of the debuff scaled with VIT, and the duration of the debuff was relative to the type of shield being used (high block rate = lower duration).

The pros to something like this that I saw:
* VIT could be a thing.
* if PLD could pull similar numbers to WAR in this way while taking VIT, the QoL improvement from the VIT would be a reason to take a PLD to MT, but certainly wouldnt not prevent a WAR being an effective MT.
* it would let PLD contribute to AoE dmg, while not really increasing the PLD's AoE dps.

Obvious cons:
* Pigeon-holes a PLD into Main-Tanking bosses with physical dmg, which sucks cause PLD has quite a bit of utility for an offtank.
* PLD still benched for magic bosses.

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

What if WHM was connected to a gladiator instead?

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Depends on what was lost / how it was lost. Would suck if WHM lost THM as it kinda needs swiftcast to ensure it's competitive with SCH/AST. If they lost Swiftcast as well, it wouldnt matter as much. If WHM lost ACN, it wouldn't be earthshattering at all. E4E is very good, but certainly not required and limited to targets that deal some sort of physical dmg. Virus is pretty limited on WHM as is. Then of course, Ruin + Physick are worthless.

We'd def pick up Convalescence and Awareness.

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We have an identity we can't explore because the game limits us form being able to.
They basically push healing and support on us, but then don't let us use it.

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Stoneskin, Clemency, Cover, and Divine Veil are definitely usable right now.
You also cant expect the identity of PLD to stay 100% consistent across all final fantasy games for balance reasons. While you might be able to get away with class/job creation based on lore, balancing gameplay based on lore can be a very bad thing.

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I understand WHM also has some pretty cruddy cross class skills, but it could be worse. You could get nothing out of one of your cross classes (like PLD's).

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I completely agree that many PLD crossclass options are pretty terrible. I'm with ya on that. To say they get nothing is a little extreme.

I dont really see this as a "PLD issue", but its certainly an issue with the crossclass system.
For example, cure and raise are just as worthless to PLD as they are to everyone else who can crossclass them.
Protect and Stoneskin deliver the same levels of mitigation per application by PLD, as they do on everyone else who can crossclass them.

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Originally Posted by winsock

For example, if you're at SE, the game is currently in development, crossclass skills arent a thing yet, and you're tasked with deciding who should and shouldnt receive brez, who does it go to and why?

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I'd give Raise to every healing class, and immediatly usable in combat without requiring a trait.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Not having to wait for the healers to cast stoneskin over and over again in some scenarios just to get the fighting started lol.

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We're still waiting for MNK to build 5 chakra, and SCH to score a critical shield before the pull...or the casting time of summoning...

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Originally Posted by winsock

PLD, AST, and SCH did receive proshell. We lost 18% stoneskin.

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Which, for me, was a bad idea.

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Originally Posted by winsock

I will say, the balance issue with PLD is pretty complicated.

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To make PLD as good as other tanks, yes. But anything you give to PLD that don't automatically kick DRK or WAR out is "within" balance.

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Originally Posted by winsock

* it probably shouldnt be a direct dps increase , can probably be fixed without one, and not increasing its dps directly keeps it very different from WAR.

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Agreed

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Originally Posted by winsock

* it should probably increase party dps to make up for its lack of dps.

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Problem is, WAR already has a DPS increase for party, with the slashing debuff. That's why I think that allowing a setup with one additionnal DPS is a more interesting way of doing it.

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Originally Posted by winsock

* the party dps increase shouldnt be able to surpass WAR.

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Surpass, no, but equals. Since DPS is the most important part of winning in current high end content, a party must be able to do the same overall DPS with any tank.

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Originally Posted by winsock

What I came up with was a change to block mechanics, where blocking applies a debuff to the target that lowers their dmg resistance.

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You naturally came with the obvious cons, which are already what left the PLD behind the other. So unless you allow PLD to block magic or to block when off-tanking, it won't really change anything.

So, in fact, the idea of a healing stance that would allow PLD to keep the main tank alive and bring one more DPS for one less healer fits with your description.
And a change for Sheltron to become an "AoE block" (And block magic, like in the benchmark) would also help, and be usable as an OT.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I'd give Raise to every healing class, and immediatly usable in combat without requiring a trait.

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Original Question:
"What things do you take into consideration with balancing brez in general? For example, if you're at SE, the game is currently in development, crossclass skills arent a thing yet, and you're tasked with deciding who should and shouldnt receive brez, who does it go to and why?"
You havent answered this. I assume you're counting PLD as a healing class in that description. In terms gameplay balance of brez, "why" would you give it to them as opposed to anyone else?

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So, in fact, the idea of a healing stance that would allow PLD to keep the main tank alive and bring one more DPS for one less healer fits with your description.

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No, it wouldnt.
The dps from 2-5-1 would surpass the dps from the standard 2-4-2. The PLD contribute would allow it to surpass WAR contribution and that would lock PLD into elitist groups, which is something you want to avoid. Remember, proshell was made a part of protect to avoid locking WHM into groups.

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Originally Posted by winsock

You havent answered this.

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Ok, it's really getting annoying that you dismiss all my answers.
FIRST, I wouldn't make a "battle" Raise. Just a Raise. This difference is stupid.
SECOND, if cross-classing is not a thing yet for a game "in development", then Jobs aren't either. So I'd give Raise to every healing class. So, no Arcanist.
THIRD, when cross-classing become a thing, I'd open Raise to cross-classing regardless of classes. After all, if everybody takes Raise, it means they're keeping a slot away from most useful skill for their role.
FOURTH, when jobs become a thing, with a composite class requirement, I'd give CNJ as a requirement for PLD, since, in most FF games, PLD (Or Knight in Japanese) is able to cast some healing magic. And the same for SCH. (In the current game, it's not as if SCH doesn't have any room to cross-class Raise...)

Is that enough for you ?

Ok, let's look at your 2-5-1 and 2-4-2.
First, in both these setup, you have the same 4 DPS and the same MT. So, you just need to compare 1-1-1 to 1-0-2.
Second, in the usual setup, PLD OT does damage, and in most case the healers manages to do some too. In the new setup, the PLD will mainly focus on healing, so, its DPS would be really low. And the healer will also be focused on healing the raid and casting some Esuna and HoT on the MT, so its dps will also be decreased.

For example (Numbers not accurate): Let's gives values for rank of DPS.
In the first setup, let's say the DPS count for 1, PLD OT count for 0.6 and both healers count for 0.3. Total 2.2
In the second setup, the DPS still count for 1 (But they're two), healer-PLD greatly decreases its DPS, so, instead of 0.6, we'll give him a 0.2. And the only healer is 100% focused on healing, so he'll count for 0. Total 2.2.
And again, the rest of the team stays the same, regardless of the setup, so their numbers don't matter.

Yes, in the current state of the game these numbers can be different, but they could be adjusted to stay within acceptable range.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Is that enough for you ?

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So... correct me if im misinterpreting this... but you're entire justification for giving PLD brez is:

It could do it in other games and its not as useful in this one?

Well then if that's all it takes to balance things:
No skills should have cooldowns, that's just silly. you cant use them when theyre on cooldown, and in other games it wasnt a thing

BLMs should be able to cast Meteor whenever they want/have the mp for it. It's silly to give them a spell they cant use and tie it to that limit break meter.

Cure III should always hit your entire party.

PLD doesnt need all these attack skills and defensive cooldowns. It should just have 1 atk option that it spams repeatedly until it decides it wants to cast something.

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Yes, in the current state of the game these numbers can be different, but they could be adjusted to stay within acceptable range.

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leaderboards
I still dont see how you could realistically do this.
For something like A1S, you might need to drop your dps by ~15%, which is reasonable.
But 2 other problems here:
Your position as a tank could make cast range problematic.
Being able to MT + heal is completely unbalanced in 4mans.

For something like A3S or A4S, your dps would need to drop by ~90%. For perspective, healers deal about 50% less dps in A3S/A4S as compared to A1S.
Even if you could construct PLD heals in a way that allowed PLD to take such a massive drop in dps by healing, you certainly wouldnt be able to MT while doing it, which pigeon-holes it into offtanking. And if you dropped HPS that much, I'd question whether or not PLD could have enough hps for when dmg picks up.

And of course, how do you prevent going 2-6 and completely screwing all healers as opposed to just screwing half of them?

Ok, you know what, I'm tired of you just misinterpreting everything.

First, brez is STUPID.
Second, PLD already requires CNJ in this game.
Third, if BLM could cast Meteor by themselves, it would only do damage tied to their stat, what would you gain from it ?
Fourth, where did you take that Cure III was always an AoE ? It seems you seriously lack real knowledge of the series.

Moreover, if you couldn't read properly "healing-PLD as an OT", I'm starting to wonder how you manage to write that many posts. And Shield Oath would still be there for when you have to MT...
Sorry, 2 stances is maybe too much to grasp...
And finally, do you even play your WHM 60 to pretend that two single-target-non-instant-cast-no-status-removal-no-healing-on-time healers can keep a whole raid alive ? My highest healer job is only 50 and even I could see the obvious flaw of solely relying on PLDs to keep the party afloat...without realizing, again, that you still need one tank to MT with Shield Oath.

I love the idea of having a mechanic that breaks free of the corner SE has painted the painfully simplistic battle systems into. DPS is king, and because it's king everyone wanted more, and because we got more, the bosses got more health and DPS checks became EVEN more important. On and on it goes.

The arguments thus far:
- "PLD as a durable emergency healer would affect the battle system in an unfamiliar way. I.E. potency based "squishy wipes" would no longer be as intimidating."
Sounds good. Do it. Straying from the idea that DPS checks are the only thing worth being concerned about might finally encourage SE to start coming up with mechanics that are actually interesting and fun. A4S already has a method that circumvents mechanics by sacrificing 3 party members, and it is absolutely beautiful.

- "Tank with a heal stance would reduce raid DPS."
The OT would still be doing DPS, and you can replace the second healer with another DPS if you're a strong team. Again, more power to the defiant. Change it up. WAR is already a supplemental DPS as OT, and in that regard much more of an asset than PLD. In the hypothetical example, even if the HealPLD were doing 0 DPS because the strain of being down one actual healer, it would be made up for by the presence of an additional DPS. Tomato, Tomahto. Point is, if PLD can't be made into a supplemental DPS on par with WAR, then there's no reason for it not to be given a supplemental utility of some other form.

- "Everything is fine the way it is. Stop complaining. If you change PLD in any way it'll make it too good."
So what I hear with all these arguments is: "I personally have no problem with it because PLD's utility is irrelevant to me. I thrive with the current system. I'm scared PLD will go from being the least useful to being the most useful and kick me off my throne." The reason this is an issue in the first place is again, because DPS is king in this game, and PLD doesn't stack up as MT or OT. If SE hadn't made the mistake of making DPS the only viable measure of your worth in the first place, it wouldn't be a discussion now.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

First, brez is STUPID.
Second, PLD already requires CNJ in this game.

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And no one can brez with it in this game

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It seems you seriously lack real knowledge of the series.

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You know you have the option to make it hit everyone right?

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Moreover, if you couldn't read properly "healing-PLD as an OT"

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Lol, pls explain how this would work at all in A1S and A2S? You're still going to be benched.

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Sorry, 2 stances is maybe too much to grasp...
...
without realizing, again, that you [B]still need one tank to MT with Shield Oath

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I lol'd when I read this. MT is irrelevant, cause you'll only be tanking the bench or is that "too much to grasp".

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Originally Posted by winsock

Cure III should always hit your entire party.

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Originally Posted by winsock

You know you have the option to make it hit everyone right?

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Sorry, I don't have time for basic semantics lesson...

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Originally Posted by winsock

Lol, pls explain how this would work at all in A1S and A2S? You're still going to be benched.

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Ok, now I know you definitely doesn't read what I write and just make your own discussion...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

And, also, this setup would be more efficient when you have only one real Main Tank, like A4. The usual "two tanks / two healers" would still be favored for some content.

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Originally Posted by winsock

I lol'd when I read this. MT is irrelevant, cause you'll only be tanking the bench or is that "too much to grasp".

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Ladies and genleman, our great paragon of balance !
...
Seriously, go talk with yourself, let the grown-ups do the suggestions here.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Seriously, go talk with yourself, let the grown-ups do the suggestions here.

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^ attack the person rather than the issues.

I gave an example earlier of why I would balance brez the way SE does now.

You obviously can't come up with any reasoning based on gameplay balance to give PLD brez. You could just be like "hmm, I never thought about it that way before"

But instead you respond to several of my posts that I just ignored you on. You kept pushing and now have the argument you wanted, but you can't come up with an answer so you attack me directly. That's very 'grown up' of you Mr 'grown up'.

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Originally Posted by winsock

^ attack the person rather than the issues.

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It's the person, who just ignores every answer.


In case you didn't realize, this is an awnswer:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I believe every class/job that can use raise souldn't be blocked by an inconsistent trait.

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This is also an answer :

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

if someone decided to go into a level 50- content as a class (not a job), to be able to cross-class Raise (and maybe Swiftcast) and use it, sure, go for it.

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And this is also an answer:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, not every job should be able to use Raise in battle...because not every job is able to cross-class it. But every class should be able to if they chose so and if they were ready to sacrifice everything that their job offers to stay a class.

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If you think my answer will change because you ask the same question multiple times, they you really are just a kid.

On the other hand you come with absurb examples of why it would be "overpowered", and why it would "break the balance"...without any explanation of what you think balance is.
While ignoring the reality of the game on what PLD can already do without "breaking the balance", or what WHM can do "without breaking the balance". (Should healers automatically die if they're the last man stading, because they could save the whole PT after everyone messed up ?)
Then, you put thoughts in my head, and probably feel pretty smart about it, about how I didn't think of some content, when I clearly said otherwise...
And finally, after fighting over your so precious balance, still without any explanation of what that is, you just admit that you couldn't care less about what to do with PLD.

And I think the best part is when you fear that 2 PLD could replace 2 WHM, further implying that you just have no idea of what a WHM can really do...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

In case you didn't realize, this is an awnswer:

This is also an answer :

And this is also an answer:

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What you're not understanding is that there is a difference between "brez balance" and "PLD balance".

Saying something like "brez shouldn't be tied to a trait" does not have any "balance" justification. The only thing that you've said that answers "why should PLD be allowed to brez?" is that PLD can brez in other games. You want this solely for lore-based reasons.

SE went out of their way to make sure PLD couldn't brez, even creating duplicates of the skill and trait. It makes sense to not allow PLD to brez.

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Originally Posted by winsock

What you're not understanding is that there is a difference between "brez balance" and "PLD balance".

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No, there's not, because :

• Unless you change the requirement for jobs, PLD is the only physical job that can cross-class CNJ skills.
  Why SE decided that they can ? Because standard PLD is able to cast White Magic. Sorry to pop your bubble, but if you want a PLD that has nothing to do with Final Fantasy standards, maybe you shouldn't play a Final Fantasy game. I suppose you're upset that BLM uses only 3 elements, or that people who fight with spears have the uncanny ability to jump really high...
• Roles are so strongly defined than no job can bring a job on a different role to be totally rejected.
  Wether or not PLD could take care of healing the main tank, WHM, SCH and AST will still have their spot in every setup. And let me remind you that the number of healers is vastly inferior to the amount of parties that need them (In case the long queuing time waiting for one wasn't enough clue).
  Healers must really feel insecure to think that...how lucky we are that tanks did not react that way when the "solo tank" strat became a thing...

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Originally Posted by winsock

Saying something like "brez shouldn't be tied to a trait" does not have any "balance" justification.

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Why are Arcanist, Summoners and Scholars able to raise in combat in Toto-Rak, Halatali and Ifrit normal (Where you are always in combat) whereas CNJ and WHM can't ? Especially when two of them are DPS.

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Originally Posted by winsock

SE went out of their way to make sure PLD couldn't brez, even creating duplicates of the skill and trait. It makes sense to not allow PLD to brez.

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Which is totally useless since nobody can cross-class AST, so their trait is even less justified. It's probably why it's at a lower level than Resurrection...

And again, you're still saying something is unbalanced without giving any thought on what is "balance". I'd like to know what your definition is.

I want Esuna. Also a faster, uninterruptable Clemency that doesn't break combos. Hell, Holy Succor in 1.0 had a 2 sec cast time and didn't break combos and that game was wayyyyy slower. Please do not quote every sentence of this post and reply to each of them because I will not read your response.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

And again, you're still saying something is unbalanced without giving any thought on what is "balance". I'd like to know what your definition is.

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I did answer answer how and why I believed that currently brez is balanced, but it wasnt in a discussion I was having with you so no worries. I can elaborate a bit on it too which couldnt hurt.

First a bit on what brez is:
* brez essentially defines the "point of no return" for a party
* The most powerful recovery ability

^ these are what I believe to be the most important factors when considering the balance of brez as it relates to gameplay.

Point of No Return
Brez is only available to the squishiest party members. If the group fails hard enough to get the squishies killed, the party itself cant recover.
^ you can tell SE put thought into balancing this. What this does is ensure squishy players arent at a disadvantage solely because of their squishiness. If they die, the rest of the party is likely soon to follow, so parties need to ensure they clear mechanics with enough leeway to give the squishiest party members a chance to survive the mechanic as well.

Would you agree that equal opportunity of surviving party mechanics is in favor of balance in terms of gameplay?

I feel obligated to leave this here. Part of a dev Q&A during Live Letter XXV:

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Q: Are there plans to make adjustments to items that users don’t use very often such as medicine like phoenix down...?

A: Hayashi: ...we can’t allow for a situation where the battle balance is ruined by items like phoenix down, which has a raise effect...

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A great example of something that should brez by your requirements a.k.a. lore, but isnt allowed because of balance issues.

The most powerful recovery ability
Imma need to cut to the chase here as im running out of time, but we can talk more in-depth here if something doesnt sit right with you. I assume we agree that powerful skills should be offset by another cost? Penalties are placed on the target of the person you res; and for the castor: MP cost and difficulty hardcasting are the major penalties.
I said earlier that it makes sense for squishies to have brez, but the fact that umbral ice and various wards make these penalties near non-existent on BLM, it makes sense that BLM cant brez.

Now PLD: Doesnt care as much/if at all if standing in AoE during hardcast. Doesnt really rely on MP to function. Very little cost to PLD as well.