The disapointment that is Alexander

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Originally Posted by HReincarnate

The Raiding System:

So, they gave people two versions ...

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That part hit the nail on the head for me. I've always done the coil fights without watching videos, so even though I may hear how some mechanics are dealt with, the first time I see the boss is when I zoned in. Now, with the story mode version I am sick of the fights before I've even started the real version.

Any mechanic is easy if you don't have to worry about healing / dpsing while doing it. If you can stop for 3 sec before, get in position, do the mechanic, then take some time to recover (phew that was hard man), then pretty much anything is plain easy.

You think "stunning" is hard if you don't have to do dps ? Think Ifrit Hard mode at launch. The dps check was so inexistant you had a pld in the party that was asked to literally do nothing but wait for the attack to come and stun it. That wasn't "hard" -- and if people couldn't have done it without the pld doing dps, then it would have been much harder to time your stuns.

Dps checks, healing checks, tank busters, are what make the rest of the mechanics meaningful. Without them, any mechanic is just a faceroll.

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Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee

I want a reason to save "silence" or "stun" to counter a devastating skill. When was the last time a PLD was able to pacify a boss mob? I don't think I've ever seen a BLM cast sleep since low level hauke manor back during launch. Does a Mnk have any reason to not be in fists of fire 100% of the time? Do DRG even have "feint" on their hotbar?

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The legs in savage A4 have to be stunned at certain times or it's a wipe. Is that what you were looking for?

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Originally Posted by HReincarnate

I think what we want is a fight that doesn't have as high a dps check but has more mechanics that are more difficult to execute.

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So like AS3 without any dps checks? If you ask me we get tight DPS checks and hard mechanics at the same time in the later turns of Savage, the first two are meant to be a bit easier so that we can get in to the raid and get some gear towards the harder floors. The whole aim of this game is to be able to work a tight dps rotation around whatever obstacles/mechanics the game throws at you, if you take the need for dps away the game just becomes easy mode. Part of learning mechanics is learning how to adjust your rotation to maximise damage while doing them e.g. once you've mastered a mechanic it won't have much of an impact on your dps output.

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Originally Posted by Miscreant

So like AS3 without any dps checks? .............

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I was only talking about A1S in my post, as I have no experience of any other savage turn. And from my experience, A1S is similar mechanically to A1, it just has higher numbers. So the fight IS harder but not in a satisfying way.
Maybe I should go back & remove any reference to artificial difficulty - seems a lot of people find it irritating -and express myself differently :P

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Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee

Wat

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Why would you sleep a boss or adds for that matter? You'd just end up ignoring them until the DR kicked in to the point where it was worthless.

Wow, so interesting...

MNK's Fists are useless, aside from Fire. That's why. Feint is just a poorly thought out ability that has no use aside from PvP because slow is terrible on NPCs. Being able to pacify a boss would not only be overpowered as hell, but would seal PLD as the go to tank for that raid, that's some nice balancing right there.

These "Mechanics" you are talking about are nothing other than ways to extend a fight that can be ignored already. Why Bind/sleep/heavy something when I can just cooldown through it? Why would I kite something? That's kind of counterproductive to the tank class in general, and against the mechanics of the game now that the most mobile classes are rooted in order to be effective (BRD and MCH). Why should I take the lazy way out when I can just power through it and just end the fight rather than dick around with these cheesy mechanics we're attempting to impose on players because they want something "different".

Being able to master a rotation in order to beat a tight timer is the epitome of mastering one's class, especially being able to do it while mastering the mechanics of a fight (IE, AS3 and 4). Being able to run around in circles and press one button when an add spawns does nothing but say you can pay attention to the shiny things, and quite frankly, PUGs fail enough at that as it is.

I find it really amusing that they went for a comedy approach for the "hardcore" raid.

I really like it, and love the music too.

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Originally Posted by HReincarnate

I was only talking about A1S in my post, as I have no experience of any other savage turn. And from my experience, A1S is similar mechanically to A1, it just has higher numbers. So the fight IS harder but not in a satisfying way.
Maybe I should go back & remove any reference to artificial difficulty - seems a lot of people find it irritating -and express myself differently :P

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It's only the first floor though, the first turns/floors have always been pretty straight forward, they don't want them to be too hard so that players can get into the raid.

Meh I kinda given up on being able to do Savage or any Hard content before it is nerfed. Can't find a static and I'm not the type to put up "I'm better than you and I make this static" type attitudes.

That said I like the feeling and flow of Alex.

The boring but stylish music makes it that much better. Yes something can be enjoyable but boring that's what makes Alex unique. The mundane atmosphere. You're inside a building robot. That's fun and boring at the same time :D.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Mythic is delayed release, but so is LFR. Normal/heroic release immediately. LFR is a week or so after. Mythic is a week after that.

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Normal/Heroic release immediately. Mythic is one week later.

Raid Finder (LFR) is broken up into wings (1-3 bosses per wing). Blizzard's current philosophy for Raid Finder (due to comments/complaints from the raiding community over the course of the previous expansion) is that only people who should ever have any reason to run it are people who will never touch any of the higher difficulties. The first wing releases alongside Mythic, and each successive wing is staggered by a couple of weeks, so it takes a month or two for the whole thing to be available through WoW's equivalent of the Duty Finder.

To use the current raid as an example:

06/23: Normal and Heroic available.
06/30: Mythic available. Raid Finder bosses 1-3 available.
07/07: -
07/14: Raid Finder bosses 4-6 available.
07/21: -
07/28: Raid Finder bosses 7-9 available.
08/04: -
08/11: Raid Finder bosses 10-12 available.
08/18: -
08/25: Raid Finder boss 13 available.

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Originally Posted by HReincarnate

The excitement of seeing each arena & boss and progressing the story was gone within the 3rd week of HW for basically everyone & instead those raiders only have gear to look forward to which greatly devalues the raiding experience. People may still want to do savage because it's the hardest thing in the game atm, and they want gear- but surely it would be a much richer experience if it could be experienced as coil was!

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Matches pretty much all my points, but another thing: By adding it two to three weeks before savage, everyone who wanted to do savage has already grinded the shit out of all the turns to prepare. People became sick of Alex 1-4 before Savage came out. And now the only motiivation is "gear, but slightly better (if even in some cases)". Dealt a big blow to motivation.

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Originally Posted by Magis

Matches pretty much all my points, but another thing: By adding it two to three weeks before savage, everyone who wanted to do savage has already grinded the shit out of all the turns to prepare. People became sick of Alex 1-4 before Savage came out. And now the only motiivation is "gear, but slightly better (if even in some cases)". Dealt a big blow to motivation.

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The only motivation for you, perhaps. Most people who do serious progression do it for the fun of it. The gear is just a nice perk that helps future clears be a little quicker.

And seriously? A couple weeks of grinding is enough to completely turn you off of the raid? Clearly you weren't that interested in savage to begin with if that's the case.

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Originally Posted by MisterLucie

The only motivation for you, perhaps. Most people who do serious progression do it for the fun of it. The gear is just a nice perk that helps future clears be a little quicker.

And seriously? A couple weeks of grinding is enough to completely turn you off of the raid? Clearly you weren't that interested in savage to begin with if that's the case.

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You put it perfectly, gear is a bonus...the fun of learning hard fights and learning to push your job is the real reason for raiding.

And if a couple of weeks of farming is nothing compared to weeks of wiping chasing the same kill.

Only thing I agree on is how tight the space is. For once, I want to see more wide open dungeon raids

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Originally Posted by MisterLucie

The only motivation for you, perhaps. Most people who do serious progression do it for the fun of it. The gear is just a nice perk that helps future clears be a little quicker.

And seriously? A couple weeks of grinding is enough to completely turn you off of the raid? Clearly you weren't that interested in savage to begin with if that's the case.

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Aren't you making the same generalizations as I am? From forum posts before, most people did serious progression in 2.0 to learn the Coil story line. Most people I ran through the coils cared not for the fights, but the story. Heck, my driving force for Coil was the story, I could care less about gear (except High Allagan, that set was amazingly awesome). Also don't make assumptions about me, you don't know anything. I cleared all the coils pre-HW, and half of 2nd/3rd coils pre-echo. I was damn hyped for Alexander Savage. But with the story already explained to me, the lack of WOW factor that Coil had, and the sameyness of A1, the motivation isn't there. A1 is just normal mode with a few twists. Resin bombs now drop a pool, yay just put it offside. 2 more adds... meh, it's the same mechanic. The only interesting thing I find as a dps is the "walk as one" mechanic for the launch/drop.

I hear A2 is more or less the same, and that A3/A4 changes. Maybe my opinion of it will change in those places, but currently I'm not dragging people by their heels into the raid like I was in 2.0.

Of course, those who couldn't clear or couldn't get a clear through the coils complained they couldn't see the story so SE gave normal mode. I get why they did it, but there goes my prime motivation, oh well. I'm still doing it cause hey, it's a challenge like you said, but I wondering how fast burn out will happen.

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Originally Posted by Miscreant

You put it perfectly, gear is a bonus...the fun of learning hard fights and learning to push your job is the real reason for raiding.

And if a couple of weeks of farming is nothing compared to weeks of wiping chasing the same kill.

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I'd take months (which was actually the case in 2nd) to years of wipes to find out what was gonna happen next in the Coil. Everything in Savage has already been revealed though. Even the gear looks the same minus a visual effect.

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Originally Posted by SpecialKK

Only thing I agree on is how tight the space is. For once, I want to see more wide open dungeon raids

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I don't really get this one, A1 & 2 have massive areas, I mean I wish we had more area like T1 but Alexander is a lot bigger than Final Coil was.

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Originally Posted by Magis

I'd take months (which was actually the case in 2nd) to years of wipes to find out what was gonna happen next in the Coil. Everything in Savage has already been revealed though. Even the gear looks the same minus a visual effect.

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I'm not going to argue with you about the story, I think it's kind of lacklustre at the moment, but BCoB was kind of bland too, it wasn't until the end of SCoB that things got interesting. I'll be kind of pissed if the whole raid stays so Goblin orientated as they feel like comic relief. You seem to only be interested in the story and it looks like you did most of Coil with Echo, so you got your story mode. But for people who enjoy challenging fights, Savage is doing ok so far, A3 is harder than anything I came across in Coil bar say T9.

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Originally Posted by Magis

I'd take months (which was actually the case in 2nd) to years of wipes to find out what was gonna happen next in the Coil. Everything in Savage has already been revealed though. Even the gear looks the same minus a visual effect.

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If people are taking years wiping in..anything in this game it may be time to try a different approach, Or a new game entirely. Preferably one that requires very little thinking.

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Originally Posted by HReincarnate

I think what we want is a fight that doesn't have as high a dps check but has more mechanics that are more difficult to execute.

Meanwhile I don't know what the hate against "artificial difficulty" is - seen it used & described in another thread and it seemed like a fitting description. The reason it's 'artificial' is because it's not a natural evolution of the normal mode - the mechanics don't become much harder and most of the difficulty comes instead from high numbers, which imo is a poor & 'artificial' way of adding difficulty.

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Oh you mean one where everyone kvetches until you can brute force it because "f mechanics"?

Because that's what happens.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

Normal/Heroic release immediately. Mythic is one week later.

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Yeah forgot the wing split up.

And no, why they did it was the same reason it has shit rewards... Mythic raiders whined they *had* to do it for set bonuses.

No, they really didn\\'t. When I did heroic tot and seige I didn\\'t touch lfr. At all. Still got progression.

World firsts do whatever they have to, like it or not, and accept it because of the nature of the beast. It\\'s often unorthodox how they gear(see melded 150 accessories).

Unfortunately everyone else seems to think that\\'s how it has to be done.

Btw, as someone that didn't do Coil when it was current, and still hasn't done final Coil(we ran out of time), I wasn't impressed by the zones themselves.

Fights were interesting(still have to do mechanics), but that was it.

I was more impressed by the atmosphere of Ulduar than Coil.

I'm sure there will be larger raids ahead during 3.x. While Alex doesn't impress with it's size it shows S-E is capable of balancing the fights for two mediums (normal and hard crowd)

Gruul's and Mag's lair's weren't exactly massive either at its time (warcraft)

I think the main problem is that savage doesn't *feel* like progression. I mean it's fun and all to work on tougher fights but it feels more like going over old ground than experiencing something new.

Isn't it more confusing that, story wise, the Sharlayans have yet to reclaim their city state even though it was important enough to erect a gigantic monument to Thaliak and the Final Fantasy equivalent of the Library of Alexandria? Seriously, a nation that automates golems, can turn normal animals into anthropomorphic foot soldiers, and imbue sentience into household items would allow goblins to claim their city? The reason for them leaving doesn't make any sense. The Garlean invasion force is separated from the Sharlayan city-state by hundreds of miles of dragon infested mountain range, and the people living their are arguably as well equipped for battle as the imperials even if they won't admit it.

The order to leave the settlement would be overwhelmingly rejected by its residence, who saw fit to erect a monument in its honor and a library/university. Also, being that the Sharlayans are neutral, the Garleans wouldn't bother invading them until they've already conquered Eorzea from sea to shining sea, which would arguably take a hundred years or more. Also their ground force would have to move through the Dravinian Forelands. They literally had no reason to move anywhere! Even the 6th Umbral Era catastrophe doesn't really play into this because no one saw it coming.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Lore something something lore

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Lore is not important here until they can make something that isn't a lazy copy of what came before it. Once they figure out how to make fun, engaging content then they can go nuts with story and lore. So far they are failing in both aspects but gameplay is infinitely more important that who dunnit and why.

The fights are gear gated for normal players and extremely challenging to complete sooner for the most hardcore. They really wanted the majority of people to have to spend probably at least two months getting gear before really progressing into A3 or A4. When you understand this you can tailor your groups experience to know if you should just hold off or keep beating your head against it. It's pretty damn tough!

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Originally Posted by Fendred

(Sharlayan stuff here)

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You ought to get around to the Astrologian storyline sometime. It doesn't make the Sharlayan history completely sensible, but it sheds some light on it nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by Kazama

Lore is not important here until they can make something that isn't a lazy copy of what came before it. Once they figure out how to make fun, engaging content then they can go nuts with story and lore. So far they are failing in both aspects but gameplay is infinitely more important that who dunnit and why.

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What a stupid comment. The story writers have nothing to do with designing boss mechanics and game functions.

Lore is incredibly important for a lot of people and the bad storyline is one of the major reasons Alex is a bad raid.

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Originally Posted by Makado

The fights are gear gated for normal players and extremely challenging to complete sooner for the most hardcore. They really wanted the majority of people to have to spend probably at least two months getting gear before really progressing into A3 or A4. When you understand this you can tailor your groups experience to know if you should just hold off or keep beating your head against it. It's pretty damn tough!

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A1 and 2 savage are roughly balanced with esoteric weapons and a mix of law and alex gear in mind. It should only take 3 weeks for "normal" people to have the gear they need to beat them.

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Originally Posted by Kazama

Lore is not important here until they can make something that isn't a lazy copy of what came before it. Once they figure out how to make fun, engaging content then they can go nuts with story and lore. So far they are failing in both aspects but gameplay is infinitely more important that who dunnit and why.

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Lore isn't important? Without lore the gameplay literally has no meaning, if we removed the lore Coil would be about nothing but a giant dragon that blows things up. There's a reason WoW reached 13 million subs during Wrath, and it was because of the importance of the characters in that expansion, such as Arthas. I loved almost everything about Alexander, except the story/lore.

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Originally Posted by Makado

The fights are gear gated for normal players and extremely challenging to complete sooner for the most hardcore. They really wanted the majority of people to have to spend probably at least two months getting gear before really progressing into A3 or A4. When you understand this you can tailor your groups experience to know if you should just hold off or keep beating your head against it. It's pretty damn tough!

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Extremely challenging? Why? The most hardcore people cleared A1, A2 in day or two, A3 in three weeks (or sooner?).
Many (by many I mean 4 I know on Ragnarok, so I believe there is more) mid-core statics (including mine) are now at A2 or even at A3 and it has been how long? 1 month?

A3 is skill gated (in this case by skill I mean everyones ability to perform their job at max, especially DPS rotation). Please, don't try to find excuses. The reason lies withing the people, not the gate.

2 days ago we had tank replacement for our static tank and the guy cleared A1s trough PF.. what gates? What beating heads against a wall?

To be honest.... The Coil Areas are not big either. So people cant complain about that. The story yeah its somehow weaker. The difficulty ... well this is the first time that a Raid had been made Normal mode so everyone can experience Raiding and the story. What we know as Savage Alexander is an equivalent to Coils so just compare Savage with Coil.

Coil felt like we were delving into the unknown, discovering ancient secrets, battling long forgotten enemies.

Alex is more like "hey let's just nip in here for some loot."

The Alex story bits were the only cutscenes that I skipped in Heavensward. I found them insufferably dull and campy in a bad way.

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Originally Posted by Shadray

Coil felt like we were delving into the unknown, discovering ancient secrets, battling long forgotten enemies.

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And walking into a mountain sized death machine ran by crazy cultist midgets, with an affinity for technology, is not delving into the unknown and yadda yadda?

Right.

We only waltzed into an old lab which held a dragon we knew wasn't "dead", (only to fight his spirit at half of the size he was originally) with a girl that did nothing but annoy until we found evidence of her grandpa (And she still did nothing). The other bosses were meh and had no place, lorewise, aside from the spoiler one. Even that got old once you realized that the story behind it was essentially an episode of DBZ.

You can say that both stories are about equal in this case in terms of quality, and the rest of Alex isn't even out yet. So how are you supposed to judge this? This is like saying Coil sucked because the first turn had terrible story...

I was talking about the feel of the place not the lore.

And of course as my feelings are my own I was stating an opinion, you don't have to share it.

I'm not saying I dislike Alex it just feels more like a dance club than a dungeon.

Alexander feels really rushed compared to coil. Overall presentation, fight design, and story are all lacking.

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Originally Posted by Shadray

I was talking about the feel of the place not the lore.

And of course as my feelings are my own I was stating an opinion, you don't have to share it.

I'm not saying I dislike Alex it just feels more like a dance club than a dungeon.

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Exactly, an opinion...

Which would have merit if it wasn't basing an entire raid off of the music and the first part of a dungeon; while comparing it to a complete dungeon that didn't actually have that well of a start either.

There is more to the entire raid. I know everyone else here fails to acknowledge this, but perhaps you should wait til the whole damn thing comes out and then attempt to compare the two before making a judgement.

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Originally Posted by Asierid

Exactly, an opinion...

Which would have merit if it wasn't basing an entire raid off of the music and the first part of a dungeon; while comparing it to a complete dungeon that didn't actually have that well of a start either.

There is more to the entire raid. I know everyone else here fails to acknowledge this, but perhaps you should wait til the whole damn thing comes out and then attempt to compare the two before making a judgement.

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This guy gets it.

I don't remember passing any judgements. I simply stated my opinion as to the feeling (maybe atmosphere would be a better word?) of the place.

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Originally Posted by Shadray

I don't remember passing any judgements. I simply stated my opinion as to the feeling (maybe atmosphere would be a better word?) of the place.

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Let's see...

Oh? What's this second link?

I can't see, let me get my reading glasses....

The fourth point states the following: "the forming of an opinion, estimate, notion, or conclusion, as from circumstances presented to the mind"

That, my good sir or madam, is the definition of judgement.

http://images.wikia.com/aceattorney/...osing_Book.gif

So you're saying we should only compare A1-4 to first coil?

k.

IMO first coil had better story and aesthetics, but to each their own.