Yoshi P / Dev Team: FAVOR System - Please Fix This BROKEN System

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

I don't understand why they removed DoW/DoM from the economy in the manner they did, while at the same time giving us i180 DoW/DoM recipes.

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I expect the FC exploration islands will pretty much be the dow/m contributions as they said there will be gathering nodes after you clear out the wildlife

I personally don't think the current system is broken at all, they just made it much harder and slower to reach that level we have grown accustomed to (of having all DOH classes max geared) and I think that is what most people are unhappy with.

The economy sucks right now, I agree, but that is because they haven't yet released the crafted items (cool new furniture, shiny glamour worthy weapons and armor, 180 accessories, etc.) that will be the rewards of our current grind to get the best DOH gear. It is not because of a broken system. In that respect I would have to 100% agree with Thrustie that increasing the yield from favors now before any real rewards have been introduced would have been wholly unfair to many and is the reason why they didn't change that.

Eventual nerfs to grinds are expected, no one is denying that, but any reasonable player would not expect them to nerf the middle of a current grind before those who put in more effort had the chance to reap the benefits of their hard work. Doing so would seriously undermine and discount the time and energy those early grinders put in. I can't recall a single time Square Enix has nerfed the grind of current and still relevant content in this game. For those claiming that nerfs are always expected and that a buff to favor yields was a complete possibility in 3.07 and that it wouldn't have been unfair, can you name a time when they nerfed the grind for still relevant content? The only thing that I can think of that even comes close is the ironworks fishing rod but then again I guess the fishermen in this game are already used to being treated unfairly =/

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

For me as well, but only partly. I also had to look ahead and realise that the supply of favor materials I could obtain were not enough. Ultimately if its 4 hours or 11 doesnt matter much to be if you can't obtain the materials needed.

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I think this sums this entire thing up nicely. Greed.

"It's not enough, why can't I get twice as much or 4 times as much? Why can't I just do one favor and get enough materials to make a full set?"

You said : Ultimately if its 4 hours or 11 doesnt matter much to be if you can't obtain the materials needed.

But the funny thing is, the rate is roughly 1 2 Star Materials per Red Rowena Token. This allows you get Roughly 11 2 Star materials a week. Thats enough to make 2 MHs and a Body piece, a week, or 3 Body pieces an a belt, or 2 Body pieces and a main hand, or 1 Mh, 1 Body Piece and 1 Leg piece a week for your craft.

How can you ask for more? You can't even use more because you wouldn't be able to trade them in, you would run out of Rowena Crafting Tokens.

Can no one else see that their argument is just that they refuse to do the mechanic because its not giving them everything they once at the start? I've done favors every week since they've come out and I've already geared a class and a half. At this rate ill have 3-4 classes geared before 3.1. I just don't see how you can scream for more than this.

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Originally Posted by Rath

What you are saying is there is no problem if they released supra and waited until people got it, then allowed you to get it by turning in FC3 instead of MCD without actually having a use for the supra yet.

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You mean sort of like Lucis? :)

What would you say Lucis and T13 gear were useful for? ...and how is current 2 star any different?

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Originally Posted by Rath

Making favors blue scrips is a bad idea, it would absolutely flood the market and everyone would have every item as soon as they could gather all of the materials.

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This worked great in 2.0, so I don't see the problem. Even SE said that 2.0 worked well, but later patches ended up too hardcore. When they announced the scrip system, it was supposed to be an additional option to what we already had, not a replacement. I think both systems can and should exist side by side: an uncapped but expensive/grindy version for hardcores, and a cheaper, easier, and slower (but otherwise equivalent) version for more casual players.

My primary issues with the current system are the expense to get red scrip in the first place and the gating of crafting materials behind a weekly limited currency. I didn't enjoy gambling my limited ehcatl sealants to RNG crafts and I enjoy it even less when favors add RNG to the RNG.

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Originally Posted by Hennessy

any reasonable player would not expect them to nerf the middle of a current grind before those who put in more effort had the chance to reap the benefits of their hard work

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The benefits are being first and any associated benefits that go with it, such as selling items for higher prices or simply prestige. That's all the reward ever is. If you get exclusive access to something besides, that's an extra bonus. It's not a guaranteed reward that anyone owes you for slogging through something you didn't like.

Why did so many people grind out zetas or lucis, even knowing the expansion would replace all of it before we even hit 60? Nothing in 2.55 required either. The gear itself is the carrot. Everything else is just a bonus.

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Originally Posted by Thrustie

Seriously? Pot meet kettle?

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Comments like this tell me you've run out of worthwhile arguments. Nonetheless, I hope they fix the system so we can both be happy.

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Originally Posted by Ossom

I had pretty much full WVR set done before 3.07 and now I almost have the full LTW set done also. Im about 4 pieces away from being done and moving on to the next set. System seems to be working very fine.

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This sounds like, "I got mine, I don't care about anyone else." Just because it works for you doesn't mean it works for everyone, and even if it did there's still room for improvement. Some of us are trying to discuss fair ways to make substantial improvements.

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Originally Posted by Ossom

You present nothing valuable to the conversation except for your desire to see the system changed for the better

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We're discussing how to improve things for everyone and your only contribution is to tell us to shut up or quit because it works already for you, personally. That's some irony.

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Originally Posted by Ossom

I got mine. You didn't get yours so you're bad. Everyone else stop talking already. I got mine.

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Another valuable contribution.

The current system is generally good for people who like/enjoy massive grinds.

It's generally awful for people who like to be productive. How many of the favor mats result in farming crystals? Half of them? Maybe more?

But, what I've noticed on the subject of crafting/gathering ... it's really, really polarizing.

Personally, I hate grinding for the sake of grinding. The time chop is ... a start. I'll even say it is a good beginning. It's nowhere near fixed the system. Fixing the system *probably* requires a pretty hefty overhaul. Personally, I wish they had held this all back and put these mats on the airship exploration & gathering missions in addition to the current form all at once. Or done anything other then atma-style grinding in gatherer form.

The problem I see with the new system is that it has turned off so many people who really loved crafting, many of my friends are casual crafters. They enjoyed working up to the end goal of say full artisan set and lucis tools. The current system has removed that joy for them and have quit grinding red scrips.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

I talk as tho I got a clear understanding of many (not all) perspectives that people in our community will have on (this) topic.
I do. Because I try to understanding perspectives that arent mine.
As is outlined in my arguments. You can always read those, and see for yourself.
I never claim to speak for 100% of the community. But if I bother to make posts like those you can be damned I'll understand most of the (realistic) perspectives involved.
Which I show via my arguments.

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On one hand you state you try to understand perspectives that aren't yours. On the other hand you demonstrate that any opinion contrary to yours is treated with derision and dismissed. You behave as if you're the voice of the people but proceed to bully anyone who disagrees with you. Your actions contradict your words.

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My ''pedestal'' is made up by my arguments. If you don't want me to look down from on top of them, you should consider actually trying to use solid arguments yourself.
But all you can seem to do is defend a failing system (of crafting, of gathering).

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Your pedestal is made up of your arrogance. I've used many solid arguments, including empirical ones. I've stated many times the current yield of favor items is more than enough to utilize all your crafting tokens every week. I have yet to see you provide any evidence to the contrary or even address the point. You say I defend the system but do I? It seems like you lack reading comprehension or, perhaps, only when it's convenient to. I had issues with the length of favors which I have stated numerous times. They fixed that and now I find the favor system acceptable. I've also said the recipes are garbage but I have some hope that they'll introduce some relevant ones in a later patch. However, I'm fine with red scrips (since they changed the turn-in amounts) and I have no problem with the idea of being able to gear up from either using the red crafting tokens directly for gear or, the faster way, using them to get favors. I'm merely objective. I'm ok with many elements of the current systems but I'm not crazy about others. You, however, seem very determined to hate every change that's made to further reinforce your OPINION that the whole system is a "failure".

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Yes it is, otherwise you would respond to my individual arguments, instead of responding to my posts in their entirety, and claiming I'm ''on a high horse'' and ''falsely claiming to represent the community''.

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How many of your posts have I replied to? 2? 3 maybe? What argument didn't I address?

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Ofcourse there are. Just as there are many more who didnt do favors and don't even come on these forums. Only a very small % of people in general use these forums.
That's no argument for your cause, or mine.

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My argument isn't based on the desires of the community hence why I don't use words like "everyone" and pretend to know what they all want from the favor system. My argument was only in reference to those of us who have participated in the favor system in its entirety for the past 5 weeks and even then I don't pretend to speak for all of them.

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I believe they did diminish it, since it's not a ''fact'' to begin with. Remember favor grinding was a huge grind. I can confidently say that the majority of those that did favor grind before, were pretty hardcore. We have some of the most hardcore players in this game fervently arguing against gathering and crafting in its (previous)/ current state.

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Those in opposition of something generally speak the loudest and the most often. I consider myself to be fairly hardcore crafter and I remained mostly silent. I saw flaws in the system but found many of the detractors to be overly zealous.

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As someone who actually did spend my tokens, I too felt it would be fair to increase them.
Because the system needed to be changed, and im not selfish enough to screw over the rest of the community for my own selfish desires.
Or for that my matter, to screw myself over. A boost to yield would also effect my own future yields.

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Kudos to you. You're a regular martyr. You do realize that the community is also made up of people who did spend their tokens and would perceive increased yield as being screwed?

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I mentioned this argument several times, you've yet to properly respond to it even once, why?
- If material yield is increased, then your own future yield is also increased.
You wouldnt lose out, you would gain.

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I did respond. I said the yield is fine as it is and I can already use all my tokens with the favor items I gather (as long as I use the roundstones ect. every now and again). It doesn't need to be increased. The other reason I don't want it to be increased? It would render my previous weeks' work as somewhat of a waste. I would have been better off just banking my tokens. And if they had increased the yield, everyone who did bank their tokens is not only ahead of me on the progression curve, they also probably have a whole bunch of spare mats to sell on the market. Would it benefit me going forward? Sure. But I don't believe it's necessary or, even, a good idea. But, most of all, I don't think it's fair for those who have done favors up until this point. We buckled down and did the work for the past 5 weeks so we could stay at the leading edge of crafting progression and I think we should remain in that neighborhood. I'm happy they changed it and I have no problem that those who banked tokens will be able to move up alongside me with far less effort. I just would have been salty if they moved past me.

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Ofcourse it would have been better to increase the yield sooner. Did you perchance also read over the parts in previous posts where I said they should have made these adjustments before even letting the system go live?
I guess you did.

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I don't believe I ever said otherwise... I'm aware you've detested the system from the very beginning and at no point have I disputed that.

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Yes, and apparently a whole lot of people agree with me. Everyone with enough information should, I think.

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Many disagree with you as well, including myself. And I've participated in the current system at least as much as you, if not more, so I have plenty of information to go off of.

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Where did you read that? Because I would only want an actual good change. As for my tirades, I've made several constructed posts on why the systems are broken.
You are free to disagree with my conclusions, but its hard to argue with the facts I've posted in the past. (lack of recipes, poorly tuned)

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I've agreed with some and disagreed with many. Your "facts" are often more biased opinions than actual factual information.

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I dont think you can discredit me. Unfortunately you dont respond to arguments, you only attack.


I have a lot of empathy for people that disagree with me. But I don't have much empathy for mules who hit walls 5 times in a row and insist there is no wall in front of them.
If you go out of your way to ''disagree'', while also avoiding responding to arguments; then yes; you wont get much empathy from me.

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Pretty blanket statement to make about someone you've barely interacted with. I think we've responded to each other's posts maybe once or twice prior to this but I admire your flair for the dramatic.

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Originally Posted by seorin

Comments like this tell me you've run out of worthwhile arguments. Nonetheless, I hope they fix the system so we can both be happy.

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You cherry picked the one statement in my entire post that wasn't an argument. The rest of the post detailed why I disagreed with you but, hey, one up for selective reading.

Does that mean they should be denounced for giving up? Are they too casual for "end game" crafting? They play to have fun and they have done much of the previous preHW crafting, but the current red scrip system made them stop because they don't enjoy it. This is why I have issue with the current system and I don't think it was SEs intent to make a system people don't enjoy.

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Originally Posted by seorin

You mean sort of like Lucis? :)

What would you say Lucis and T13 gear were useful for? ...and how is current 2 star any different?

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Lucis was not nerfed, and it was useful up until 58, if you did not have it you needed to upgrade your MH prior to those levels unless you bought/had someone else craft your leve items usually. T13 and upgraded ironworks gear was also usable up until 55.

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Originally Posted by seorin

This worked great in 2.0, so I don't see the problem. Even SE said that 2.0 worked well, but later patches ended up too hardcore. When they announced the scrip system, it was supposed to be an additional option to what we already had, not a replacement. I think both systems can and should exist side by side: an uncapped but expensive/grindy version for hardcores, and a cheaper, easier, and slower (but otherwise equivalent) version for more casual players.

My primary issues with the current system are the expense to get red scrip in the first place and the gating of crafting materials behind a weekly limited currency. I didn't enjoy gambling my limited ehcatl sealants to RNG crafts and I enjoy it even less when favors add RNG to the RNG.

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In 2.0 they mostly retuned 1.0 gear and added the mats to philosophy tomes. In 1.0 those mats were bought from vendors. Later in the 2.x patches old tome items got moved into dungeons, which people running those dungeons for gear complained about constantly on these forums, and the next tier of items was from tomes again (myth) and were selling for 100-500k for quite some time. Once again, these forums were riddled with complaints, but those with gil had no issues as they could buy all they needed. This allowed those with gil to gain a huge advantage on those without. These items were also used for DoW/DoM gear, and not crafting/gathering gear. We had il55 AF for a very long time. At no point did we require tome items to craft our own gear. The only "gate" we had on our gear later was MCD and sealants, which people complained about as well.

SE decided they did not want those with gil to obtain such a large headstart this time around. They created gear that did not require melds and those that did. But this time around SE is not gating us with tomes, DoW/M running dungeons, or desynthesis. All we rely on is crafting for our scrips for gear and gatherers (or self-gathering) for scrips/favor items to craft meldable gear. They deliberately limited the amount of these items on the market at this time to prevent those with gil from saturating the market before those gearing up with scrips could get to the same level. They also withheld the actual recips in the cases of the super rich buying up the limited materials there are available.

This all seems quite temporary (as they have stated 3.1 is bringing new FC nodes, new recipes, etc.). That gives everyone plently of time to get their stuff without feeling rushed and spending tons of gil. In fact, you are actually forced to!

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Originally Posted by seorin

The benefits are being first and any associated benefits that go with it, such as selling items for higher prices or simply prestige. That's all the reward ever is. If you get exclusive access to something besides, that's an extra bonus. It's not a guaranteed reward that anyone owes you for slogging through something you didn't like.

Why did so many people grind out zetas or lucis, even knowing the expansion would replace all of it before we even hit 60? Nothing in 2.55 required either. The gear itself is the carrot. Everything else is just a bonus.

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Because you did not need to upgrade your MH until at least 55 in HW as stated above. That is 5 levels and half the HW content to make use of those items. When Zeta came out it was relevant and useful, some people used Lucis to help with their MB2 even.

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Originally Posted by MeridaQ

Does that mean they should be denounced for giving up? Are they too casual for "end game" crafting? They play to have fun and they have done much of the previous preHW crafting, but the current red scrip system made them stop because they don't enjoy it. This is why I have issue with the current system and I don't think it was SEs intent to make a system people don't enjoy.

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I don't think I've said anything of that nature. I was happy they lowered the length of favors and hope it encourages more to participate. Just because I have less issues than some with the new system, doesn't mean I have anything against casual crafting as you put it. But whether it's favors or Supras or Lucis', some will decide it's not worth their time. It doesn't mean there shouldn't be hard to obtain goals for crafters. Whether you like or dislike the way they implemented this one is unique to every individual.

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Originally Posted by Thrustie

I don't think I've said anything of that nature. I was happy they lowered the length of favors and hope it encourages more to participate. Just because I have less issues than some with the new system, doesn't mean I have anything against casual crafting as you put it. But whether it's favors or Supras or Lucis', some will decide it's not worth their time. It doesn't mean there shouldn't be hard to obtain goals for crafters. Whether you like or dislike the way they implemented this one is unique to every individual.

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Hello Thrustie, sorry if it seemed like I was targeting you with my statements. I was not, I was simply making a statement that the whole reason why everyone crafts is because they enjoy it and I know many that don't enjoy the current system. These forums have gotten people too polarized and that just because someone vents/complains either pro or con we shouldn't jump on them. That is why I said my rhetorical questions.

I'm sorry! I saw the post as following 2 of mine so I made a somewhat stupid assumption that you were referring to me.

That's a fair statement and I agree, people are going to feel different ways about any system that is implemented but everyone's opinions should be respected. Kinda like the various stages of 2.x relic chain, this can be a very polarizing subject when people are so invested in it.

No problem! :D Also SE give us our T5 materia please!!! ;-;

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Originally Posted by Rath

Lucis was not nerfed, and it was useful up until 58

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I agree a gear reset isn't a 'nerf', but that's getting bogged down in semantics. Either way it means taking less time to reach the same point as those who did it earlier. It's far easier to get a couple 50-55 mainhands than a lucis, and since both will be replaced at 60 it's functionally the same as a nerf. It would be a direct nerf if we could craft our own lucis cheaply at 55.

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Originally Posted by Rath

When Zeta came out it was relevant and useful, some people used Lucis to help with their MB2 even.

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Two star gear is useful in the exact same way. You can use it to make the rest of your two star gear or to more easily make level 60 stuff. Zeta and Lucis weren't required for anything, they just made existing stuff a little easier. Exactly like two star. People with two star gear have already received just as much reward as Zeta and Lucis users, but some act like SE owes them more. That's the part I disagree with.

Regarding the rest, instead of speculating what SE wanted let's go right to the source (bolding mine):

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Originally Posted by Gildrein

The intention behind implementing the scrips system was that advanced materia melding was the only method by which players could increase their stats for Disciples of the Land and Hand classes, and we reached a point where a large amount of items was required to increase stats by even a small amount. For players who wish to race to the top as quickly as possible, they will be able to use materia as they have until now, but we’ll also have an alternative route for players to gear up by gradually saving up scrips. All players will need to use scrips at some point, so there will be a difference in speed for players who spend large amounts of gil on materia, but we're implementing this system with the goal of providing a new route for leveling Disciples of the Land and Hand classes.

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It sounds more to me like they wanted to preserve the ability for those with gil to power to the top quickly. They just wanted to add a second option for more casual players. I think they failed at both. Hardcore/wealthy players only get a marginal speed increase, materials are scarce to the point that they're barely being sold at all, and casual players feel more alienated than ever.

Zeta and Lucis were a significantly lower time investment. I probably finished my Zeta relic step and 4 Lucis' in less time than I spent doing one week of favors. I hope there's more to it than just easier 2 star crafting or both favor crafters and red token crafters are going to be pretty salty about their time/Gil investment. I think there's more to this hence why they gated the progression so heavily but I guess we'll see come 3.1.

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Originally Posted by Thrustie

You cherry picked the one statement in my entire post that wasn't an argument. The rest of the post detailed why I disagreed with you but, hey, one up for selective reading.

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Not only that, she has quoted me and changed my words around to make it seem like I have said something I haven't. Can't even have a conversation with her without her getting personal.

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Originally Posted by seorin

It sounds more to me like they wanted to preserve the ability for those with gil to power to the top quickly. They just wanted to add a second option for more casual players. I think they failed at both. Hardcore/wealthy players only get a marginal speed increase, materials are scarce to the point that they're barely being sold at all, and casual players feel more alienated than ever.

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Well I've already seen multiple crafters with full HQ sets, and I've seen other crafters going the 180 route. I don't possibly see how they failed at both. How have they failed at both?

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Originally Posted by seorin

Two star gear is useful in the exact same way. You can use it to make the rest of your two star gear or to more easily make level 60 stuff. Zeta and Lucis weren't required for anything, they just made existing stuff a little easier. Exactly like two star. People with two star gear have already received just as much reward as Zeta and Lucis users, but some act like SE owes them more. That's the part I disagree with.

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But Lucis was considered "catch up" gear and it's unfair to compare an item that came out at the tail end of ARR to new crafting gear that just came out at the beginning of an expansion. Do you really not think this new gear will be required to craft the next level of 3 star crafts? I think it would be absurd to think otherwise and it's why many people, myself included, are trying to grind out as much of the new gear as possible before that time comes.

LOL since when was Lucis considered "catch up" gear?

It is the best MH tool available to a level 50 crafter or gatherer. Having it meant that you had an advantage when climbing to 60 that those lacking it did not.

That's not catch up gear. That's future-proof gear.

Catch up gear is gear that comes out below the top level, that is easier to get than the leveling set it is replacing. It is gear that helps you get caught up to the top level without going through the big grind that the other alternative required. It is never top of the line gear. It is always gear designed to help you get that top of the line gear.

It was the highest tier of gear that existed when it came out.
It took loads of preparation and arguably doing the hardest content that existed for the job at the time in order to acquire it.
It was not, strictly speaking, necessary to have in order to perform at the highest level at that point, but it certainly made things easier.
It's still possible to get now if you want, but there are equivalent alternatives that are a lot easier if you're willing to gain a few levels first.

Yep, Dreadwyrm gear certainly seems to fit the definition of catch... oh, were we talking about Lucis? My bad.

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Originally Posted by Rath

Making favors blue scrips is a bad idea, it would absolutely flood the market and everyone would have every item as soon as they could gather all of the materials. Despite the fact that they currently serve no use, they are top tier equipment. The gear you get for the actual red scrips is the casual gear, not the crafted gear from the favour mats. You would not even need the items to be on a tome vendor as you can gather blue scrips as much as you want.

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Why do you feel this is a bad thing? Why is everyone having the opportunity to make/obtain high level gear induce such a level of distaste from the "hardcore"? Because it takes away your ability to make millions? Because you don't get to feel awesome and special wearing a special glamour?

Gates don't help "casuals", they keep them in a permanent underclass.

On other servers, are the prices of the favors item going on anyone else's server? Mine are steady going up after the patch came out. I'm wondering if this is a trend.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

LOL since when was Lucis considered "catch up" gear?

It is the best MH tool available to a level 50 crafter or gatherer. Having it meant that you had an advantage when climbing to 60 that those lacking it did not.

That's not catch up gear. That's future-proof gear.

Catch up gear is gear that comes out below the top level, that is easier to get than the leveling set it is replacing. It is gear that helps you get caught up to the top level without going through the big grind that the other alternative required. It is never top of the line gear. It is always gear designed to help you get that top of the line gear.

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Sorry wrong choice of words from me =( but I hope it's understood what I meant about comparing gear that comes out right before the dead period leading up to an expansion vs. gear that comes out right after an expansion.

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Originally Posted by Ranzan

On other servers, are the prices of the favors item going on anyone else's server? Mine are steady going up after the patch came out. I'm wondering if this is a trend.

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Going down to 75k last I bought them this morning on Coeurl. That was from 150k pre-patch

Seems like 75-120k across all the items now on my server. Actual HQ finished goods are at 5mil, but I do not expect them to sell at that price anymore. Lots of favor mats on the mb lately. 20-50k on alexander (beta alt).

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Originally Posted by Hanmerreborn

Why do you feel this is a bad thing? Why is everyone having the opportunity to make/obtain high level gear induce such a level of distaste from the "hardcore"? Because it takes away your ability to make millions? Because you don't get to feel awesome and special wearing a special glamour?.

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I am a casual fyi. Edited when I got home from here on: So I have no idea what distaste you are referring to.

Casual does not mean lazy, lower class, not willing to earn things, and it does not mean I do not like to feel a sense of accomplishment. It also has nothing to do with making millions. I get to make millions, and feel awesome when I have a special glamour. It has nothing to do with hardcore or casual.

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Originally Posted by Hanmerreborn

Gates don't help "casuals", they keep them in a permanent underclass.

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In fact removing gates that affect the hardcore allows them to remain ahead of anyone with less time, as favors from blue scrips would allow. You can get thousands of blue scrips daily, but not if you are a casual player with less time. You would be forced to buy mats or fall behind if you were aiming for scrip gear or crafted gear. The current rgs gate slows everyone to a very casual pace. You need to craft 1-7 items daily for your scrips or all at once, your choice. You can then buy the casual gear with your scrips tokens, or use favor mats and your tokens to obtain the mats to craft non-casual gear that requires melds.

One option requires little to no effort for gear that is better then anything but the HQ crafted/melded 2 star gear. The other is the more expensive HQ 2 star melded option. Both options have very little advantage over the HQ melded non-starred lvl 60 gear.

Even with billions in gil the resources are limited since the gatherers supplying the mats are also restricted by RGS. This further gates those with more time and allows casual players time to catch up before this gear is actually needed for something.

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Originally Posted by Rath

I am a casual fyi.

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Doesn't really answer the question.

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Originally Posted by Hanmerreborn

Why do you feel this is a bad thing? Why is everyone having the opportunity to make/obtain high level gear induce such a level of distaste from the "hardcore"? Because it takes away your ability to make millions? Because you don't get to feel awesome and special wearing a special glamour?

Gates don't help "casuals", they keep them in a permanent underclass.

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What you are suggesting favors the hardcore actually. Since time investment would still be required.


Don't consider this topic a hardcore vs casual discussion, because it is not.

I'm aware that some give the impression that it's hardcore players disagreeing, but dont be fooled.
Hardcore and casuals alike would rather see a system where we werent gated by RNG grinding, weekly caps, and with an actual reward at the end.

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Originally Posted by Hanmerreborn

Doesn't really answer the question.

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He is whatever is required to make it seem like he's arguing from the right point of view. Which in this case would be the ''casual point of view'', so he's a casual.

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Originally Posted by Ranzan

On other servers, are the prices of the favors item going on anyone else's server? Mine are steady going up after the patch came out. I'm wondering if this is a trend.

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No idea. Only been watching the prices of the crafter materials, and refined materials; both of which have gone down on my server. Mostly due to speculation however.

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Originally Posted by Rath

I am a casual fyi. Edited when I got home from here on: So I have no idea what distaste you are referring to.

Casual does not mean lazy, lower class, not willing to earn things, and it does not mean I do not like to feel a sense of accomplishment. It also has nothing to do with making millions. I get to make millions, and feel awesome when I have a special glamour. It has nothing to do with hardcore or casual.



In fact removing gates that affect the hardcore allows them to remain ahead of anyone with less time, as favors from blue scrips would allow. You can get thousands of blue scrips daily, but not if you are a casual player with less time. You would be forced to buy mats or fall behind if you were aiming for scrip gear or crafted gear. The current rgs gate slows everyone to a very casual pace. You need to craft 1-7 items daily for your scrips or all at once, your choice. You can then buy the casual gear with your scrips tokens, or use favor mats and your tokens to obtain the mats to craft non-casual gear that requires melds.

One option requires little to no effort for gear that is better then anything but the HQ crafted/melded 2 star gear. The other is the more expensive HQ 2 star melded option. Both options have very little advantage over the HQ melded non-starred lvl 60 gear.

Even with billions in gil the resources are limited since the gatherers supplying the mats are also restricted by RGS. This further gates those with more time and allows casual players time to catch up before this gear is actually needed for something.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

What you are suggesting favors the hardcore actually. Since time investment would still be required.


Don't consider this topic a hardcore vs casual discussion, because it is not.

I'm aware that some give the impression that it's hardcore players disagreeing, but dont be fooled.
Hardcore and casuals alike would rather see a system where we werent gated by RNG grinding, weekly caps, and with an actual reward at the end.


He is whatever is required to make it seem like he's arguing from the right point of view. Which in this case would be the ''casual point of view'', so he's a casual.

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The question was why does he feel that way. His initial statement of him being a causal didn't answer that question (my quote was a full quote at the time).


But this system still benefits the hardcore, while only succeeding in breaking casuals into two lesser tiers based on a) seniority and b) luck.

For A:

A crafter/gatherer who hits 60 today can NOT catch up to those who hit 60 when red scrips hit without having to mysteriously gain a fortune to buy his way to catch up (something a fresh 60 will not have normally, funneling those towards RMT), which only positions the hardcore/early adopters even further from the gains made exploiting those who lag behind. No matter how much time commitment that person makes, they can never reach the level of other crafters merely by starting LATER.

This problem is further exacerbated with each and every subsequent patch. 3.1 starts soon, today's 60 crafter/gatherer will be woefully unprepared for the new recipes because they won't have the necessary means of acquiring the correct tools and gear to then make whatever is required to get the yellow scrips (problem 1). Yes, reds will likely be unlimited at that point, but now you're playing super catch up at the same exact moment you need to start progressing into the next tier, and for any casual player, that will cause them to lag behind in at least the first few weeks without once again, a large gold investment (problem 2).

A solution to problem 1 would be to have "rollover" maximums with all gating tokens. Instead of being 450 weekly, be a counter. You've made 410 this week, next week you can do 490 because the maximum will be 900 total gathered scrips. Those that started today, congratulations, you can turn in red scrips for 2k+ total this week should you be so inclined. This way newer players aren't punished just for starting later.

The solution to problem 2 is already done in DoW/M, give the high and low tier from the same item. You turn in a red scrip item, you get some blue scrips to catch up on your goldsmith because you focused on weaver first. Turn in a blue, get a small amount of red/yellow. Just like how you get eso/law concurrently. Yellow comes out, you can attempt to make it, hit the lowest collectibility (or miss the lowest) because you are under-geared because of problem 1, but you still get some reds so you can still gear up without having to make 3 tiers of items simultaneously.


For B:

Who knows what the hell SE is doing or going to do. As we all know, those who hit 60 CUL/Gold reaped the rewards in the scrip systems with low cost items but equal or higher gains. Yes, that's different now, but once again this goes back to early adopters in problem A.

Then, there's the fact that the recipes are seemingly completely lacking and completely missing in some instances. Imagine if 1 star gear was the current red scrip and you found out after making a full set of CUL that there would be no 2 star? Which goes back to the idea of removing them entirely, or making omnicraft sets with special glamours only for crafters (for example, there would be astral chest of crafting, and then boltmaster would be an easy to make glamour you could put on).



All in all, the system still sucks. Any hardcore player can easily get around the imposed limitations through alternate characters (much like the top raiders do currently), or through excessive amounts of gil, both of which they easily have access to. All the while punishing everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

What you are suggesting favors the hardcore actually. Since time investment would still be required.


Don't consider this topic a hardcore vs casual discussion, because it is not.

I'm aware that some give the impression that it's hardcore players disagreeing, but dont be fooled.
Hardcore and casuals alike would rather see a system where we werent gated by RNG grinding, weekly caps, and with an actual reward at the end.


He is whatever is required to make it seem like he's arguing from the right point of view. Which in this case would be the ''casual point of view'', so he's a casual.

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I have been casual since mid-point of 1.0 (Had kids, what can you do!), and always been casual while posting on these forums, and I have never claimed otherwise. The fact that you disbelieve anything anyone says that is contrary to your point of view (until they post SS to shut you up, in which you say something to attempt to not be wrong.) says much about you. Would you like to see a family picture with my wife and kids? How about my work too!

Until then you spend obsessive ammounts of time dissecting their posts and getting offensive when they do not do the same to yours. Thus baiting them to play your game. When those you are doing this with stop playing your game, you move on to another topic that appears to be a "hot" topic and do it all over again. Even at times changing your view to suit the new topic. If anyone brings this up, you just say something about ignore button and make a quick lame explanation. You are the worst kind of troll, as you convince yourself you are not doing it.

Btw, your last post. the line "Mostly due to speculation however" is your "I was not wrong" from previous posts how nothing changed. Do not expect me to begin arguing with you either. I am only replying to you now at my wifes behest.

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Originally Posted by Ossom

Well I've already seen multiple crafters with full HQ sets, and I've seen other crafters going the 180 route.

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You see only those who remain, not the ones who have given up. It's called the survivorship bias, and it greatly skews your perspective. Anecdotal information is unreliable and notoriously misleading.

Furthermore, even if it works for some that doesn't mean it works for all or that it can't be improved. If a car has a potentially fatal defect in 5% of those produced, is it not worth addressing because it "works fine" for 95% of them? If someone asked for an option to make visual alerts more distinguishable for colorblind players, would you say "it works fine for me, deal with it or quit"? That kind of comment is unhelpful and disrespectful.

The system is a failure by SE's own claims. They said they wanted crafting to be accessible even for those who can't level all the classes, yet leveling them all is still the easiest part. Anyone without enough time to level multiple classes won't have enough time for red scrip either.

That's a very clear and specific indication of its failure. Do you have anything but anecdotes to support your claim that it's a success?

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Originally Posted by Ossom

Well I've already seen multiple crafters with full HQ sets, and I've seen other crafters going the 180 route. I don't possibly see how they failed at both. How have they failed at both?

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I've yet to see a single crafter with a full HQ set myself. Altho I do know of a few (on different servers) that have the entire left side, or right side. I imagine there's a few out there somewhere with the full set as well.

The fact that you need to point to others as example says enough, however. These people with a full set are those that worked to make it happen.


And they did, finally. ''already'' you say? Its been what, 5 weeks since the release of red scrips? And there are only a few people with full sets and not many more with half sets.

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Originally Posted by Ossom

I think this sums this entire thing up nicely. Greed.

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I think you assume some strange things after you removed the context. I'm the very opposite of greed. Can't for the live of me make gil when I don't have a purpose to use it for. Can hardly by bothered by anything that I don't have a purpose for, for that matter.
Kind of a result to being somewhat of a victim to sloth. (I'm too lazy)

I must admit it sounds cool tho. ''I think this sums this entire thing up nicely. Greed. '' Kind of like the line a novel or movie character says. But otherwise not related to the discussion at all.

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Originally Posted by Ossom

But the funny thing is, the rate is roughly 1 2 Star Materials per Red Rowena Token. This allows you get Roughly 11 2 Star materials a week.

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Your numbers are off by a large amount. If you make things up try to be a bit more..subtle about it. There's been too many posts from people with the right amount of estimates to believe you don't really know.
1 Rowena token equal to 1 2* material? And that being equal to 11 materials per week?
There are 9 tokens per week, so obviously 1:9 doesnt suddenly become 1:11.
Further more 1 Rowena token requires atleast 2 gatherers tokens to be used per different type of material. With the best result you can expect to gain enough for 6-7 materials per week.

So 6-7, not 11.

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Originally Posted by Ossom

Can no one else see that their argument is just that they refuse to do the mechanic because its not giving them everything they once at the start? I've done favors every week since they've come out and I've already geared a class and a half. At this rate ill have 3-4 classes geared before 3.1. I just don't see how you can scream for more than this.

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I've seen nothing to confirm you actually do all of this. If I remember correctly you barely crafted or gathered? Or was that someone else, my memory is kind of poor~
As for doing the favors. I made my servers first off-hand. Which you know, means I probably grinded my worth of favors long before you did.
Therefor the argument ''they refuse to do the mechanic because its not giving them everything they once at the start?'' doesnt really hold when used against me.
Because I did favors before it was cool to say ''I did favors''

And honestly, remember red scrips didnt come out yesterday. If it took you this long to get 1.5 classes equiped that kind of shows how slow even the ''fast alternative'' really is.
Assuming ofcourse by 1.5 classes you are referring to MH, OH, 6 left side pieces, and 5 right side pieces.

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Originally Posted by Ossom

Not only that, she has quoted me and changed my words around to make it seem like I have said something I haven't. Can't even have a conversation with her without her getting personal.

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Seorin is actually using arguments and proper argumentation. I can understand if you find that a frustrating experience. I do believe you are not alone in that feeling in this thread, as there are others who feel as you do.

Idk what's going on my my server but now the food items are up to 200k each! >_< The hq turn in items are over 300k too. This can't be right cause there are more up there before the patch happen but they are almost double in price.

You're right, I mean 9 instead of 11. But still you will get roughly 20 Items from Rowena token, after 2 Favors that gives you about 40 items and enough to get 2 2Star materials. So after 9 Favors you have roughly enough for 9 Materials. Anymore is redundant and you can only hold them or sell them which is unnecessary unless you are greedy.

Anyways, I don't mind a debate, but Seorin has actually taken words out of my mouth and placed her words in. She quoted me, removed my text, and put her lying text in, here is an example for you below.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

I dislike favors cause they are super duper hard. Ossom is Ossom.

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See how annoying and stupid that is.

You guys keep talking about a Fatal Defect or the System being broken or the System needing a change well..

before you hide behind these definitions again why don't you tell us how the system is broken? Because you guys aren't explaining anything.

Crafter Red scrips takes less than an hour each week. Gathering red Scrips takes less than 5 Hours each week. If you don't have enough time for that then you weren't meant to cap it each week, just like if you don't have enough time to raid every week can you really complain about not having it beaten?

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Originally Posted by Ossom

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The system isn't broken because Favors are too time consuming to gather or too gated by the scrip cap. It's broken because it removed tome crafting materials from the economy, which could be acquired by anyone with a DoW/DoM that could cap tomes, without offering a replacement that was as accessible. The Red Scrips require a level 60 DoL with Blue Scrip gear and a crafted HQ MH and OH to get the favor materials and a level 60 DoH to get the crafting materials. For someone that has no crafters/gatherers leveled (which believe it or not many players do not have a single max level DoH/DoL) this type of requirement is enough to deter them from participating.

The scrip system by itself isn't failing. The system just needlessly alienates non-crafters/non-gatherers from the economy completely.

Is this an adequate explanation for why the system is broken?

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Originally Posted by Ossom

She quoted me, removed my text, and put her lying text in, here is an example for you below.

See how annoying and stupid that is.

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Haha, wow, you must be pretty new to forums. I paraphrased a post of yours to show you how it looks to people who don't already agree with you. You're not contributing to the conversation, you're trying to shut it down with a personal anecdote about how much gear you have. That sounds like, "I got mine, so everyone else can stop talking now." If it bothers you that much, either contribute to the conversation or don't participate at all. Just because you don't want to talk about it doesn't mean we can't.

Also, your claim that "you guys aren't explaining anything" would look better if you weren't completely ignoring my very clear explanation above. ;)

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

The system isn't broken because Red Scrips are too time consuming to gather or too gated by the scrip cap. It's broken because it removed tome crafting materials from the economy, which could be acquired by anyone with a DoW/DoM that could cap tomes, without offering a replacement that was as accessible. The Red Scrips require a level 60 DoL with Blue Scrip gear and a crafted HQ MH and OH to get the favor materials and a level 60 DoH to get the crafting materials. For someone that has no crafters/gatherers leveled (which believe it or not many players do not have a single max level DoH/DoL) this type of requirement is enough to deter them from participating.

The scrip system by itself isn't failing. The system just needlessly alienates non-crafters/non-gatherers from the economy completely.

Is this an adequate explanation for why the system is broken?

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Don't even think you mentioned the word Favors. So not really, I don't see how any of that pertains to the Favors needing another nerf? Along with that, that doesn't describe a broken system at all.

Red scrip turn ins requiring a minimum of Blue Scrip gear. Sounds like perfectly reasonable tiering, the same as Alex Normal requiring Law gear and Alex Savage requiring Alex Normal gear. So that isn't much of a fault of the system, it was designed to be that way. (BTW you can buy Gatherer gear from a vendor for pretty cheap if you look around for it).

Tome materials have been pretty much removed from the economy since 2.5. DoW/DoM still have ways to turn dungeons into money though, (through GC seals which are worth more now than ever).

If you expect someone to have the time to cap Red Scrips, then you should expect them to be able to hit a few nodes to get the Blue scrip gear and round up 20K for an NQ Mh/Oh. That's not the system failing at all.

@Seorin Not new, been very avid on the forums, you're the first person to change someones text around though I see, which is a little underhanded if people skim through the forums and see my picture and those words, it looks like I actually said that. Kind of rude IMHO.

Anyways Seorin, still you have yet to explain why Favors need a nerf. I'm fine with you talking about whatever you want, but the circle jerk is annoying.

"Wheres my nerfs SE and 2 Star gear is useless" over and over gets quite old.

One must do Blue Scrips to Unlock Red Scrips, one must do Red Scrips to either slowly unlock gear for their classes, or swiftly gear up their classes in time for 3.1. You have a choice, of course each way has its pros and cons. Removing the cons from one side, negates the effective use of the others, if we started nerfing favors to the point where you could get a full set in a week without having to spend extra time or money then it negates the worth of the Lv180 gear that people have already invested in.

I'm not sure why they didn't include some sort of materials for DoW/DoM to be able to buy with Law tomes, I would be totally for this, but making this the favor items would completely negate the Lv180 gear. If that's the case they should completely get rid of the Lv180 gear, refund everyone and redo the system over. But that's not gonna happen. Nerfing favors anymore though doesn't really help people gear gear any faster because they will still be capped by Rowena Crafting Tokens. I have a bunch of favors in my inventory and still have Red Gathering tokens but I have used up all the Rowena Crafting Tokens from the last 5 weeks. A nerf to favors would just put everyone in this position faster.

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Originally Posted by Ossom

Nerfing favors anymore though doesn't really help people gear gear any faster because they will still be capped by Rowena Crafting Tokens. I have a bunch of favors in my inventory and still have Red Gathering tokens but I have used up all the Rowena Crafting Tokens from the last 5 weeks. A nerf to favors would just put everyone in this position faster.

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This would affect the amount of mats available for purchase by the pure crafters. As currently they are the worst off due to such a low supply. I do not think this actually warrants a nerf though as it should balance out in time. As more gatherers finish gearing and start selling favors instead of using their tokens for gear the supply will increase. As more of the "rich" crafters finish gearing up, there will be more mats available as they stop buying as well. A nerf right now would essentially just help line the pockets of those currently selling and allow those waiting for lower prices to buy sooner. This does not seem broken to me. It just seems like a new system still in its initial stages.