I was playing around with on a dummy last night. 837 DPS was my average but I was running out of TP at 2min38seconds. No food, no party buff, no pots, no slashing debuff.
SwO our DPS is not far behind at all.
ShO our DPS is very far behind. ShO damage needs to be the focus of any complaints because it is lacking.
PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke
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07-31-2015, 10:43 PMSirTaint
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07-31-2015, 11:01 PMrawker
The thing is, if the damage penalty from Shield Oath is improved, Fight or Flight needs to be lowered down to compensate and that will hurt Sword Oath.
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07-31-2015, 11:08 PMSirTaintQuote:
Originally Posted by rawker
Why?
Darkside and Maim are perma buffs. If anything PLD should have an equivalent, like every shield block gives us a 5 seconds 15% damage increase.
DRK has Darkside,Darkarts and Blood Weapon (not to meantion a 500pot single GCD and magic to help with TP regen)
WAR has Deliverance,Maim,Berserk,Inner release and Equilibrium (they can also stance dance on the fly for increased security or DPS)
PLD has FoF and Sword Oath -
07-31-2015, 11:53 PMFue
Just make SwO a trait and add a tp restore skill to its place ;)
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08-01-2015, 02:24 AMDiscYou weren't paying attention to the incoming damage then. Most of the damage comes from auto-attacks, which can hit for as much damage as Royal Fount. Halone's STR down allows PLD to basically have a constant -10% damage taken.(additional ~5% for shield/parry over DRK) It becomes more equal if PLD can forego Halone for Royal Authority, but then their DPS takes a massive jump.Quote:
Originally Posted by RadRyder
DRKs main advantages in A1S are increased enmity generation & Shadow Wall during a Royal Fount every 3 minutes while out of Grit. Hypercompressed Plasma for the most part only matters whether you survive or not, but will also hit DRK for 10% more. Grit+Shadowskin+DA+Dark Mind = 44.8% damage taken, Rampart + Sentinel = 38.4% damage taken, Hallowed Ground makes the second Plasma a non-issue. The lack of need for enmity combos early on allows them to focus DPS the first phase, which is where DPS matters most.
DRK potencies are naturally very low without Darkside and Dark Arts to boost them. Bloodweapon, unlike FoF, does nothing for oGCDs. Your proposed buffs would make PLDs already naturally high potency abilities hands down better DPS than both DRK & WAR. In addition to taking less overall damage, carrying a ton of support abilities, and the groundbreaking Hallowed skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
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08-01-2015, 02:50 AMFaytteAre you...absolutely crazy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Disc
Dark have the highest core potencies out of all tanks. Have you looked at the potencies of other tanks?
Honestly? I do not even know how to take this post seriously after reading this. Scourge vs Fracture? Any of your combos vs ANY combos of other classes?
Royal Authority? 690 total potency.
Delirium--which includes mana restore and a debuff? 680. You are '10' potency behind a combo which includes an attack that does -nothing- but damage. Considering most DRK are also doing a DA+ Soul Eater once every 3 or so combos.
Yeah your potencies being low....lol. -
08-01-2015, 02:51 AMSekuEffectively make bulwark a defensive and offensive cool down on any physical fight~ and force it with shieldtron.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
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08-01-2015, 02:57 AMPhoeniciaA small correction: DRK has the highest core potencies out of all classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Faytte
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08-01-2015, 03:01 AMSirTaintQuote:
Originally Posted by Disc
Wat....
And the problem is ShOs penalty and the lack of a way to circumvent it.
WAR can negate the penalty via IB/Unchained and gets back to 95% via Maim. If you are in deliverance you still get the increased damage from Maim plus all the other goodies.
DRK can negate with darkside (-20 +15) and then stack DA,Blood weapon, along with most potent core rotation. DRK also have 4 oGCDs to weave. -
08-01-2015, 03:05 AMKircheAhaltZerbst
If you got the changes your crying about everyone would run double paladins and a ninjas for the slashing debuff.
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08-01-2015, 03:11 AMT2teddyPlease feel free to watch numbers roll by in the fly text in these two videos. Warriors do NOT need a dps buff...obviouslyQuote:
Originally Posted by Zephiroth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUnLg_ZPmeI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjZqrUMZQlA
Paladins on the other hand...yeah...could use it for sure. -
08-01-2015, 03:22 AMDonjo
Paladin doesn't need a buff to DPS. Paladin's doing pretty okay. The other two tanks need to get nerfed instead.
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08-01-2015, 03:23 AMKircheAhaltZerbst
I feel as if I just got dumber reading this post. No one has any real control in their tests.. we have no idea what accessories are being used.. no parse data with crit rates.. and the last example was "look at the flying text" what the hell lol. PLDs strongest GCD is a DOT for Christs sake.
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08-01-2015, 03:34 AMNFaelivrinSo because PLD can do better in one out of four endgame raid fights, they're the best? You're being silly, a majority of Alexander Savage effectively undermines Paladin's so-called "Perfect Mitigation" by virtue of the fact there is not one single physical damage tankbuster in the entire set of raids, this means that the only good thing your shield can do is block fluff autoattack damage, which further renders both bulwark and sheltron useless. So what does this leave PLD with? Rampart, a cooldown that DRK has a perfect equivalent of, Sentinel, which is good but comparable to Vengeance and is beaten for Savage tankbusters by Dark Mind + Shadowskin and Hallowed Ground, an actually fairly good cooldown with a 7 minute recast time. Hallowed Ground alone does not make PLD "the perfect defense tank" everyone claims it is, not in the current raid tier. What PLD was in the coils of Bahamut is not relevant to Alexander Savage.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed
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08-01-2015, 03:35 AMSirTaintQuote:
Originally Posted by Donjo
Nerfs are never the best way to handle an adjustment.
PLD just has lackluster tank stance damage. It needs a ShO bump, not even a big one but being 100-150 dps behind DRKs and WARs is not acceptable.
If blocking an attack in ShO gave us a temporary attack boost we would be on even ground. Make it ShO only since SwO is fine. Make it a component of shield swipe if they have to. Something that lets us boost DPS while in our tank stance to be closer to WAR and PLD. -
08-01-2015, 03:36 AMDante_V100% agree. I'm not sure if this is helpful or not but last night I did about 750 on our faust clear for the week as DRK MT at ilvl 180/Ravana weapon/no eso gear/4 vit accessories (1 str 190 ring/2 170 vit and 2 180 vit)/no slash debuff. This was with some errors however via not keeping up dots, not pushing out more soul eaters, not using DP on cool down a couple times but it was the first night I've tried MTing it. I also still have 3 170 pieces to upgrade (head and two accessories) I am unsure what the crit rate was but we didn't have a dragoon or NIN in the party at the time. It was BLM/BLM/SMN/MNK.Quote:
Originally Posted by KircheAhaltZerbst
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08-01-2015, 03:52 AMDonjoNo, the correct answer is absolutely a nerf. We're currently in a situation where the Tanking classes are busting over the "Support DPS" and nipping on the heels of the actual DPS. Buffing PLD damage is just playing with fire.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
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08-01-2015, 03:53 AMDisc
Without dark arts/Darkside
Hard Slash – 150
Spinning Slash – 220
Syphon Strike – 250
Power Slash – 300
Delirium – 280
Souleater - 260
Combos
Hard+Spin+Power = 670
Hard+Syphon+Delirium = 680
Hard+Syphon+souleater=660
PLD Combos
Fast+Savage+Halone = 610
Fast+Savage+Royal Authority = 690
Fast+Riot+Goring = 600((840 actual)+600/minute from DoT)
DRK oGCD
Carve & Spit – 100/minute
Scourge – 500(1000/minute)
Salted Earth – 525(700/minute)
Plunge – 200(400/minute)
Low Blow – 100(200+/minute)
Total DRK oGCD: 2400/minute+- low blow
PLD oGCD
Spirits Within – 600/minute
Circle of Scorn = 250/minute
Sword Oath – 50/auto(1442/minute)
Total PLD oGCD: 900(2342 counting bonus from autos)
Darkside/Dark Arts make up for lower natural potency & lack of Fight or Flight. PLD is trailing behind in the end after counting all buffs, but the difference is not nearly as significant as you would have people believe.
Delirium does not restore MP, Syphon does. It also results in lower overall DPS than Royal Authority/Goring Blade combos, which is what you are complaining about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Faytte
Grit is a 23% DPS loss from what a DRK would be doing without it. You don't pretend Darkside is limited to Grit stance to fluff numbers. (.8*1.15 = .92) to (1.15 - .92 = .23)Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
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08-01-2015, 03:59 AMDante_V
I don't think he was fluffing numbers. He wasn't talking about the dps loss from grit, he was talking about the ability to gain back 15% of the loss with darkside.
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08-01-2015, 04:00 AMSirTaint
The issue isn't OT damage, its MT damage.
Darkside is 15% damage boost, DA boost it further.
FoF is a 10% damage boost. Take away SwO potency and you see the huge discrepancy . Your math SUMs it all up nicely. -
08-01-2015, 04:10 AMDiscThis is where the difference in DPS is most prominent. This is also why PLD should not have their DPS buffed. The only thing keeping PLD from taking full advantage of Sword Oath is the gear reset. As PLD numbers increase their enmity generation will see a multiplicative benefit. A month or two from now you'll be good to go Sword Oath without wasting DPS on the Halone struggle. If they're buffed in advance there will be absolutely no place for DRK who will not compete on any front.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
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08-01-2015, 05:35 AMSirTaintQuote:
Originally Posted by Disc
No, that's not how it work at all. Every job scales with ilvl and gear. PLD will struggle with hate in SwO even at i210 because the OT and DPS will be i210 as well.
SE uses a potency system to keep everything on the same scale. PLD will always be the same % behind WAR and DRK the numbers will just be bigger. -
08-01-2015, 06:57 AMGiantbaneAre we talking DPS in SwO or threat in SwO? I'd think threat in SwO should be closer to DRK out of grit, as Savage Blade and CoS have threat mods.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
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08-01-2015, 07:10 AMGiantbaneSo what you're saying is that if you use Grit and Darkside together, then Grit directly reduces your damage by 23% of the DPS you would do if you didn't use darkside at all. Which is a silly way to look at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Disc
Grit just costs you 20% of the damage you were doing when you turn it on.
Well, it also means no blood weapon, but I don't feel like trying to calculate the direct contribution of Blood Weapon because you have to figure in how the MP is going to translate to damage as a % of your total potency without the mp. It's not as much as SwO.
Anyhow, I think the biggest complaint is that PLD loses SwO damage AND the damage penalty of ShO when swapping SwO > ShO, which is pretty hefty. DRK loses Blood Weapon and Grit. Since SwO accounts for more of a PLD's OT damage than Blood Weapon does to the DRK, the PLD is going to lose more DPS than the DRK will when swapping from DPS stance > Tank stance. Since the PLD already has lower OT damage, they're even worse off when in ShO. -
08-01-2015, 08:41 AMGalgarionYeah, but the fellow who uses dark arts for all of his combos is the fellow who goes OOM like a boss on the boss.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
It is a boss loss. -
08-01-2015, 08:50 AMrawkerIncorrect. When in shield oath, activating FoF is a net gain of 4%. Sword Oath, 30%.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
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08-01-2015, 08:56 AMDiscA 5% increase to damage does not translate to a flat 5% increase to enmity like it does for DPS. In shield Oath the enmity would double for 10%. SH+Savage 25%. SH+Halone up 35%. I've explained this several times over. Enmity modifiers offer a multiplicative effect DPS will never see. I have explained this several times in this thread. It does not matter where the other tanks are on this scale, you're not struggling to hold hate off of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
No. If base is 100% DPS then Darkside is 115% DPS. 20% of 115% is 23%. Grit is a 23% DPS loss, if you dropped Darkside too you would see a 35% DPS loss. Shield Oath is a rougher calculation. 20% reduced from base sure, but loss of +50 potency on autos ups that by about another 12~15%(estimate) for a total of about 35% DPS loss. You're very eager to ignore the multiplicative effects in this game. Stop that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
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08-01-2015, 09:10 AMGiantbaneExactly, you're basing that 23% off of some arbitrary collection of abilities like "use all your other stuff, but not darkside because ... ???" when there's no good reason you wouldn't use darkside in the vast majority of situations whether it's tanking or DPS or some combination of the two (tanking w/o grit). So it's a nonsensical stat that doesn't serve any purpose for comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Disc
I mean, I might as well say:
Using all your oGCD attacks (C&S, dark passenger, plunge, low blow, reprisal) gives you 20% more DPS (no idea if this is correct). So you're really doing 1.15 * 1.2 = 138% by using your oGCD attacks and darkside. Now if you turn on Grit, that lowers your DPS to 1.38 * 0.8 = 110.4%, 1.38 - 1.104 = .276. So Grit REALLY reduces your damage by 27.6% of the damage you do by just standing around doing GCD attacks. But that doesn't tell you anything useful. It's a purely useless stat. -
08-01-2015, 09:19 AMNoira
So you guys want the best damage mitigation AND equal dps to to the other tanks :x ?
Never thought I'd see the day PLds complain about deeps ._..
You got bulwark, sheltron, rampart, sentienal, clemeny and divine veil, hell you even got more non eminty combo attacks, whereas War just got more attacks and a double edge sword auto parry.
Drks have to use mp to buff their mitigation on top of having rng to even use reprisal.
PLD just has to press button, the only time you need mp is for flash and clemency now.
You guys want your cake and on top of eating it too like what ? <.< -
08-01-2015, 10:43 AMNFaelivrinSheltron and Bulwark are largely useless in the current raid, Clemency is incredibly situational. Paladin's defensive advantages are currently largely nullified by current raid design, leaving behind a tank that survives the same, not better than the others, but does less damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noira
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08-01-2015, 10:49 AMSirTaint
@noiro If you have zero idea what you are talking about please step away and let the adults discuss.
@disc
Anything fixed in a math formula won't effect the ilvl change. Rage will still be x5 and still be the same potency. Our numbers will be bigger but still multiplied by the same factors. SwO will still be gimped for hate.
Again your math is right you understanding of your own math is not.
Ilvl damage x pot x emn where pot and emn are fixed will scale equally across jobs. -
08-01-2015, 01:54 PMLone-wolfe-02
I think what's happening is the fact that plds are no longer the go to mt anymore and they can't deal with that because they wanna be special.
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08-01-2015, 02:09 PMOPneedNerfsMore like WARs are afraid that their solid OT spot in raids will get compromised.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02
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08-01-2015, 02:30 PMDiscAssuming Darkside is on full time DRK does 25% more damage out of Grit than they do with Grit on, and 20% less with Grit on than they do with Grit off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
100 Base * Darkside(1.15) = 115
100 Base * Darkside(1.15) * Grit = 92
(92/115)*100 = 80 Translates to 20% DPS loss from 115% of base
(115/92)*100 = 125 Translates to 25% DPS gain from 92% of base.
100 = 100% of Base
115 = 115% of Base
92 = 92% of base
Using your Base DPS as Base for reference, there is a 23% difference between the two stances and what you would do
All of this means the same thing.
The estimate for Sword Oath is because swapping to Shield Oath is not just a percentage reduction. The flat 50 potency addition to auto-attacks, going off memory was around a 60% increase in auto-attack damage the last time this was really looked into, which accounted for around 30% of overall DPS. Doing a quick test while writing this seems to have dropped dramatically to around 20% of overall DPS, with roughly the same 60% increase to auto-attack DPS from Sword Oath.(257minimum+169minimum) Against dummies my Shield Oath DPS is roughly 70% of my Sword oath DPS, and my Sword Oath DPS is roughly 140% of my Shield Oath DPS. I don't feel like doing all of the math, you get the point.
Paladin has clear advantages in AS2 & specific phases in AS3. AS1 will see rise in PLD ability as they gear up and enmity in Sword Oath becomes less of an issue. AS4 remains to be seen, but they had some clear advantages in Normal Mode with proper use of Mitigation/Clemency during Discoid & Orbs.Quote:
Originally Posted by NFaelivrin
In terms of enmity, tanks have a steeper curve than DPS. Put it on a line graph assuming 10% increases in DPS for each, just Sword Oath + Savage Blade even.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
Say 50% increase in damage for a 1000 damage melee attack & a 560 damage Savage Blade.
Melee Base Enmity = 1000 Damage * 1 Modifier = 1000 Enmity
Melee New Enmity = 1500 Damage * 1 Modifier = 1500 Enmity
Tank Base Enmity = 560 Damage * 3 Modifier =1680 Enmity
Tank New Enmity = 840 Damage * 3 Modifier = 2520 Enmity
The melee sees an increase of 500 points in enmity for their 500 damage(1.5x damage increase)
The tank sees an increase of 840 points of enmity for their 280 damage(1.5x damage increase)
Converting it to overall DPS is a bit more complicated, but opening with a Shield Oath Halone Combo on a 100 damage/attack gain converts to thousands of damage worth of enmity. All tanks share some form of this enmity bonus over DPS, which is a major factor in dropping stance more often as we gear up. Also keep in mind that Sword Oath not having -20% damage results in the equivalent of something like a 1.25x enmity modifier, which will be significant paired with an ever increasing Savage Blade.(leading to Royal Authority of course) -
08-01-2015, 02:52 PMIcepick823
Why does pld dps need to be buffed? It already was. Besides we sacrifice damage dealt for taking little damage to begin with. Healers can spend more time in cleric stance and do more dps that way.
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08-01-2015, 05:03 PMGalgarionDoesn't seem like a possibility since most tanks are either Paladins or Dark Knights. If our Axes don't get you, our novelty will!Quote:
Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs
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08-01-2015, 05:31 PMCidolfas86Maybe on your data center sure, but on Aether the DRK craze has tapered off a bit. I see more PLDs still than anything else though sadly. It took longer than I expected.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galgarion
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08-01-2015, 05:34 PMGameplayzero
Pretty sure tanks do consistent amount of damage relative to each other when OTing. People underestimate paladins damage potential, but its usually been on par with warriors.
Look it up. People think that Warriors out deeps the other tank classes are wrong. Yoshi P even said himself Darks do the same amount of damage. Its just that Warriors do the most burst damage thanks to feel cleave.
Now if you meant MTing, then thats a different story. Haven't done enough research to say much there. -
08-01-2015, 06:55 PMNoira
I'll let you know when I see adults talking :).
PLD is fine as is. -
08-01-2015, 07:12 PMFue
Ill just leave this here.
http://puu.sh/jl9mt/19e9a0ea40.png
ilvl186 with Ravana Axe. No party buff, food or pots
http://puu.sh/jlet3/6eff2967e7.png
Same thing with Pld obviously missing the slashing debuff and i had to use enliven to even get a decent time.