Unjust Kicking from Alexander T4

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Originally Posted by SakuraMidori

Some ppl like to go in blind and some ppl just learn better from doing it them self anyone can read about something sure. But to actually perform well that's a different story it's like football you see and hear the plan but then doing the play won't always work 100% that's life

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I feel like a lot of this thread is being misunderstood or it somehow turned into people believing everyone is saying that people need to explain fights to new people. The way I see what everyone is saying is not that new people are required to explain anything. People are just simply trying to state that Its alright to not explain anything just don't expect everyone to be perfect, especially if your not going to be helping.

The thing about the guides is they can give you what I would consider technical knowledge. Actually doing something is experience that you wont get just reading or watching a guide.
Just as Sakura here is trying to say. In the real world there's having a college degree, and then having the actual experience of doing what you studied for.

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Originally Posted by Edewen

But feel free to make a party finder instead.

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Feel free to make a party finder for the experienced people you want as well.

Use the duty finder with 0 expectations either way it's the only realistic thing to expect. Expecting random people to conform to what you think is "Standard" is foolish. New people and experienced people alike should avoid the plague that is the duty finder if they want a specific experience.

This "Convient" feature has become such a source of toxicity in the community.

Was also waiting on the
DF v. PF debate.
Been said to the ground time and time again.

If you're running DF, you're rollin' the die there.
Ensemble a PF and you should have better luck.
Stop tryna make people watch videos and sh!t if they don't wanna.

There are a couple of issues at play here.

One: There is not a very clear expectation on how Duty Finder parties are supposed to work. I've heard a lot about how using DF as learning is something that NA players tend to do, whereas JP players generally use DF for experienced parties and quick clears. Both ways can make sense, so there's this tug-of-war between people who think that it's okay to experience content via DF blindly and people who expect experienced players. The way DF is currently set up, it kind of favors the former group in that for most of the game you're encouraged to learn by doing or active experimentation. When leveling, no one tells you to go read a guide for a dungeon or trial, perhaps partially because the content is not difficult enough to warrant it. But the important point is that players are basically groomed from the start to go in blind and experiment. We need to have a definitive stance on what to expect in DF so that people know full well what they're getting themselves into.

Two: Text guides and videos are great contributions to any gaming community. However, some people can find it problematic that this research is required. Why? Think about it. You're having to study up on something. For a game. A game that should be about fun and adventuring and experiencing stuff. This doesn't necessarily justify unpreparedness, but it's still a valid concern due to it now being a requirement instead of something you have the option of doing if you're explicitly wanting to be the best of the best. However, it leads me to my bigger point: reading guides and watching videos does not guarantee victory. There are people who learn best by observation and can deal with mechanics simply by watching. However, there are others whom while they're able to possibly grasp basic concepts of the fight via these methods, will not actually get good at these fights until they actually do them. The community doesn't favor this type of active experimentation beyond leveling (and sometimes while leveling.)

I don't really know how to reconcile the second point, because both sides have valid reasoning. If you're going to do a random crapshoot with DF, you shouldn't expect everyone you get to know the fight as well as you do. But at the same time, if you don't know the fight, you can't really expect everyone to be willing to explain and be patient. Some of us have done the fight so many times that it's part of muscle memory, but try to get us to explain it and words fail us. Or we try to be as thorough as possible and still forget something really important. The only thing I can think of is an addon that WoW had where you could type a command and automatically post boss strats into party chat. Some people have done that via macros in XIV, but others get irritated with the party spam.

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Originally Posted by Edewen

Nothing but a poor excuse to be unprepared and to inflict that on strangers. Preparation is never a bad thing. But feel free to make a party finder instead.

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Or if you your self want everyone 100% prepared then i my tip to you stay out of DF and make your own party. I for one am not saying i expect others to hold players hands and help them do everything hell don't explain stuff no ones making anyone. But if you wipe a few times in a DF and feel the need to cuss or boot someone even though they stated they are new then you may need to check yourself

Honestly, if you require me not to expect anything out of you if I meet you in df, how can you expect anything out of me? What's stopping me from thinking "eh, i wont ever get to see phase 3 and beyond with this group, so why should i give my 100% if that's not even enough to get past phase 1?". Then I'd be killing your chance at learning the fight even more even if we both want to see the learn the entire fight.

Hell, technically you cant expect me not to bail and waste your time that you already spent in queue either. 'People' made some unspoken rule that they try to enforce but I would be playing the rule of the system and took the penalty. If they're not 'wrong', I can't be wrong for that either. They can play the 'decency' card but shouldn't I be able to do the same?

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

It's common courtesy and good manners to at least know what the fight mechanics are before using DF. No one is suggesting you have to be "Pro" or anything like that. Just cursory knowledge of the mechanics... you don't even have to watch a video.

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You might consider it common courtesy and good manners. I do not. I am perfectly fine with players going in blind to a DF encounter. I don't expect players to research an encounter before doing it.

When you sign up for a DF you get cast into a pool of random people. If you want to impose expectations onto people than make a PF where you have that level of control. In a DF group, you might be the only one with cursory knowledge of the fight and that is just something you need to go in expecting can happen.

I do blind runs in DF. If I keep failing I'll ask party member advise, then ask FC advice then if I still fail, I'll read a guide. (or watch a video guide)

As for those saying Japanese using PF to learn mechanics of a new dungeon, I seriously doubt so. I have never seen PF looking for a learning party for Dusk Vigil/Sohm Al and Avery.

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Originally Posted by Jatoi

True, but I expect a less successful run on a raid in DF simply because at least with PF you can state a requirement ( either looking for experienced players or form a learning party ) with far less hassle. Hence why I prefer to either use PF or go with my FC.

As a result I don't really hold any expectations for the DF and explain anyway.

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The expectations in pf are whatever random group decides is the problem. People joining df should be prepared for anything.

Also, OP didn't want to go in blind. He wanted the group to type up a guide for him. He can't say he doesn't understand guides when he didn't even try to watch one. Also, some guides I find extremely confusing while others I find do a better job breaking down fights. If you don't understand one find another. At least the effort is made.

You are very kind to take time to explain fights but you shouldn't feel obligated to.

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Originally Posted by SakuraMidori

Or if you your self want everyone 100% prepared then i my tip to you stay out of DF and make your own party. I for one am not saying i expect others to hold players hands and help them do everything hell don't explain stuff no ones making anyone. But if you wipe a few times in a DF and feel the need to cuss or boot someone even though they stated they are new then you may need to check yourself

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Who said anything about 100%. General idea is all you need and all you will get from any guide written or video. I go in expecting a couple wipes may be needed. But someone being so lazy as to not look at a single writeup on a fight, is also likely not going to have done research on their class and rotations and putting out 50% of what they would be capable of with a bit of effort.

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Originally Posted by FudoMyoo

I do blind runs in DF. If I keep failing I'll ask party member advise, then ask FC advice then if I still fail, I'll read a guide. (or watch a video guide)
As for those saying Japanese using PF to learn mechanics of a new dungeon, I seriously doubt so. I have never seen PF looking for a learning party for Dusk Vigil/Sohm Al and Avery.

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Nor have I. Luckily that is not exactly what is being discussed here. You do illustrate the main issue however, as people clearly don't see the line between leveling content made to be facerolled and end game content that expects a quite a bit more from the player than a pulse.

DF (which includes end game contents of the new Alex normal according to you)

IMO the player attitude plays a big part. I usually start the DF with a {Hello} and immediately inform the party {This is my first time here}

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Originally Posted by FudoMyoo

I do blind runs in DF. If I keep failing I'll ask party member advise, then ask FC advice then if I still fail, I'll read a guide. (or watch a video guide)

As for those saying Japanese using PF to learn mechanics of a new dungeon, I seriously doubt so. I have never seen PF looking for a learning party for Dusk Vigil/Sohm Al and Avery.

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It's not about learning a new dungeon that is made to be reasonably easy because it's meant for levelling.
It's about learning a bit harder fights that require coordination and some level of skill. Like Alexander. It's all fairly easy IF you know what to do, but there seems to be a mentality that says if you can enter with DF, you can go in blind and faceroll it.

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Originally Posted by Gamer3427

OP

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Just queue "party in progress" to get into the same group... trolololol

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Originally Posted by Melondra

There was a comment posted several months ago about how the community base was in this game compared to other mmo's. This was the reply. "Final Fantasy XIV Online has one of the most toxic community I have ever seen in a MMO" I don't know about you guys but that's really a disturbing review. I've read that comment on several reviews for this game. Will do some digging to find the the source, but the fact that the comment was even made is disturbing.

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I can just agree with the Review. At the Start i had very friendly Players but when i hit 50 i was hit with such a big Wave of Toxic Behaviour i stopped Playing for a whole Day straight because i didn't want to experience that again. The Community here is on par with the Community from World of Warcraft and that's something where Players should take some Time and think about it. WoW basically wins the Award for "the worst Community in a Online Game" every Year.

Do you really want to see how Yoshi will get this Award? He will be so "proud".

It's a vote, no ?
If the majority decided to kick, it's their right, no ?
If the community is too toxic for some people, you can quit and play a more friendly game, no ?
And yeah, I seriously hope you can find 1. Oh wait there's hello kitty online

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Originally Posted by SakuraMidori

Not brand new lollllllll yes since 2 weeks old is not new at all and everyone needs to be a vet by the time less then 2 weeks rolls around yea? jeez all i can say is ppl need to chill out and if you expect ppl to watch vids and know every lil thing make your own party

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First day it's brand new... two weeks in, it's starting to collect dust. It's still new, but not brand new.

The main point however;
If you're going to begin by asking how the fight works anyway, save yourself some time and frustration by looking it up before entering... Then you can at least ask for specifics that you didn't understand from just reading.
I certainly don't expect you to know every detail, but if you've looked it up before entering, you have at least some understanding of what's going to happen in the fight.

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Originally Posted by Elim

I agree that the kick was unjust. You made the mistake once. Not over and over. Plus you were new.

However, they're not obligated to type out all the mechanics for you (a random pug), just like you're not obligated to know the mechanics. It bugs me when newbies rage at vets for not holding their hands. I know you didn't rage - I'm just saying that it's a pet peeve of mine when it does happen.

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It's not hand holding. . .

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Originally Posted by Parapluies

It's a vote, no ?
If the majority decided to kick, it's their right, no ?
If the community is too toxic for some people, you can quit and play a more friendly game, no ?
And yeah, I seriously hope you can find 1. Oh wait there's hello kitty online

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Toxic this; Just shut the hell up.

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Originally Posted by Parapluies

It's a vote, no ?
If the majority decided to kick, it's their right, no ?
If the community is too toxic for some people, you can quit and play a more friendly game, no ?
And yeah, I seriously hope you can find 1. Oh wait there's hello kitty online

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don't you feel so good about yourself.... in a game that's almost completely PvE. Here's a cookie

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Originally Posted by PetiteMalFleur

The expectations in pf are whatever random group decides is the problem. People joining df should be prepared for anything.

Also, OP didn't want to go in blind. He wanted the group to type up a guide for him. He can't say he doesn't understand guides when he didn't even try to watch one. Also, some guides I find extremely confusing while others I find do a better job breaking down fights. If you don't understand one find another. At least the effort is made.

You are very kind to take time to explain fights but you shouldn't feel obligated to.

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Plus there's always your FC to ask if all else fails.

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Originally Posted by luciferbelmont

don't you feel so good about yourself.... in a game that's almost completely PvE. Here's a cookie

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I wish I could click "like" on a post more than once.

http://img-s2.onedio.com/id-54d47917...2c83a4139a.gif

Ever wondered that maybe you are the problem? did you read up, watch a video? no? then why are you there? they aren't your teachers.

I put all this nonsense on two elements: 1) these "Pro" forums that did their damnedest to ruin the FFXI community and are seeking to do so here and 2) the developers pandering to said "Pros" with absurd overlapping mechanics and DPS checks that almost require overgearing and job exclusion to get past.

I honestly can't understand how people can justify having an attitude that is essentially "Screw the other people in this group, I'm going to do things my way and I don't care if I waste their time by wiping us repeatedly."

This is a social game. There are other people behind those other characters in your party. They have just as much of a right to play the game as you do, and your time is not somehow more important than theirs. It's just basic courtesy to remember that what you do affects those 3/7/23 other players in the instance, so the least you can do is not be a deliberate burden to them.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

First day it's brand new... two weeks in, it's starting to collect dust. It's still new, but not brand new.

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Yea you see i just can't understand that way of thinking {two weeks in, it's starting to collect dust} says who? oh i'm sorry that some ppl feel that way and the ones that do need to stay in PF so they can run with others who feel after 2 weeks something is old but in DF you know full well that it may be others first time so wipes will happ people need to deal with it. Since at the end of the day it should not be about what your ilvl is but how much fun your having

It's because the game is actively hostile towards any type of community building.

- Every piece of non-faceroll content is designed for 8 people only and actively discourages any kind of FC involvement.
- DF means you can be a dick and never suffer any consequences.
- The structure of nearly every boss fight is just one endlessly repeated script where a single mistake is enough to cause a wipe.

In FFXI if you were a dick, you weren't getting any content done. Almost everything could be done with as many or few players as you could muster. Bosses could pull any of their abilities out at any time and even the worst situation could be pulled back from the brink.

Welcome to a clash of humanities natural instincts and design decisions that bring out the worst in people.

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Originally Posted by Adire

We have 2 excellent video guide makers.

MTQCapture and MrHappy.

MTQCapture's videos are quick and to the point, may miss some things.

MrHappy's videos are generally long and detailed, as detailed as any explanation can be.

There is really no excuse to go in expecting to be told mechanics. Why hold the group up when you can watch a video like MrHappy's over and over until you have a decent understanding of what you can get without experience?

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I always watch the videos by both, they are very good at giving you an idea of the fight, however watching and doing are two different things.

It does make it easier going in with an idea of the fights and what will happen, but it doesn't mean that you are going to be step perfect, videos can help immensely, but nothing beats getting into the fight and putting what you've learnt in the videos into practice ... and it does still take practice.

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Originally Posted by Miitan

It's because the game is actively hostile towards any type of community building. .

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Yes but nothing needs to be this way if ppl just relax and understand they can get what they need done and nothing is impossible. Back when id play monster hunter 1 on the lol ps2 ppl deal with much harder bosses and team work was the norm sad that ppl don't understand team work very well anymore. I mean look at steps of faith ppl had no team work at all to the point SE had to nerf it :P sad https://youtu.be/TH7M2bXLg1E This was not the full fight but shows how team work is a need

'Elitist' must be the most overused buzzword of 2015.

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Originally Posted by Mhikail

If you're running DF, you're rollin' the die there.
Ensemble a PF and you should have better luck.
Stop tryna make people watch videos and sh!t if they don't wanna.

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Thing is, you end up rolling the die with PF parties also. Learning parties? Good chance will still get people going in expecting a one-shot, even though it explicitly says "Learning party". Then the opposite, kill/farm parties, you get people joining expecting to be taught or carried.

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Originally Posted by SakuraMidori

Yea you see i just can't understand that way of thinking {two weeks in, it's starting to collect dust} says who? oh i'm sorry that some ppl feel that way and the ones that do need to stay in PF so they can run with others who feel after 2 weeks something is old but in DF you know full well that it may be others first time so wipes will happ people need to deal with it. Since at the end of the day it should not be about what your ilvl is but how much fun your having

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Call me crazy, but I don't think wiping repeatedly because of people that don't want to learn mechanics is fun at all no matter what your item level is. Don't get me wrong; I don't mind explaining mechanics. When I queue for Alexander in Duty Finder, I understand that more often than not we will have to explain them, and there may be wipes. However, there have been several people in here that have said they explicitly don't want explanations; one that said he goes as far as to turn off the chat box to avoid "mechanics spoilers". I certainly don't go into DF expecting a pro team, but I do go in there expecting to be able to finish the content. Why queue otherwise? Someone that refuses to even interact with the party on a basic level is going to end up getting the boot in favor of a player that's actually interested in playing socially. If you want a 100% pro party, yes you absolutely should be hitting up PF. By the same token, if you want a 100% blind experience, you should also be hitting up PF. Throwing yourself into Duty Finder with an utter refusal to do anything but learn by trial and error shows that you are completely unconcerned with the other seven people, their time, and how they'd like to play the game.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

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I 100% agree as i'm not one of the ppl who don't wanna learn if ppl wanna toss out tips or give me in put i'm all for it and i thank them. But just as you say {However, there have been several people in here that have said they wanna go in blind or not learn} the same can be said about ppl who feel they don't need to give out tips and expect ppl to know what to do. i think if both sides work together as a team stuff go very well

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

You might consider it common courtesy and good manners. I do not. I am perfectly fine with players going in blind to a DF encounter. I don't expect players to research an encounter before doing it.

When you sign up for a DF you get cast into a pool of random people. If you want to impose expectations onto people than make a PF where you have that level of control. In a DF group, you might be the only one with cursory knowledge of the fight and that is just something you need to go in expecting can happen.

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The problem is, both you and the people who go in blind after content is well established are the exception, not the rule. And the fact that Party Finder has a specific option for "Learning Party" is a heavy implication that you should use the Party Finder if you don't intend to research the fight beforehand.

It really isn't that hard. Mr. Happy's video guides are usually no more than 5 minutes long, and you can skip half of them since he covers trash as well as bosses (he has skip links to bosses and phases in the corner).

And sorry, common courtesy isn't subjective. At this point, players who haven't done the content are quite obviously the minority. Most everyone has done Alexander at least once by this point. So by not doing any research, you are the weak link. (using royal you, as I don't know your circumstances personally).

I'm not saying I would kick a person just for being new and not bothering to take 3 minutes to look up a fight, but it's just plain rude not to take that 3 minutes to get at least cursory knowledge of the fight. The one exception I can accept is if the player doesn't like to spoil fights and prefers to do them blind and learn... and in that case, that's what the Party Finder is for.

In my opinion I'm like

"i'm new" kick me out if that bothers you.=P

However, I also think you should be able to vote kick at the start of the instance for this type of zone, but if a boss dies you should no longer be able to.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

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Me? And what makes you think I'm one of the people who go in blind? I learn things with my static before I do it in DF because I enjoy playing and progressing with them. When I go into DF I already know the mechanics, but everyone is not that lucky to have a static they do things with. When I join DF and someone is new, I have no issues explaining mechanics. It takes less time total than it did to type this response.

The "Learning Party" check box implies nothing. It just means that you can now, as it wasn't always there, indicate that the party is a learning party. Whereas before you wrote it out in the text box. (though it is still far more common to just use the text box)

When you join DF you have chosen to group with people who may be completely clueless on the content you signed up for. That is just how it works.

Edit: Actually because it was bugging me. Where is this "Learning Party" option you're mentioning? I wrote that it wasn't always there, assuming you were correct that there is one. But after looking I just don't see it. People have always used the text box to indicate a learning party. Are you by chance talking about the "Newcomers Welcome" check box?

I honestly don't mind if a person chooses to use the DF while being completely new to the fight, I even don't mind if they repeatedly die due to failing mechanics. What annoys me is that they expect the 7 other people to wait while one of them explains said fight for the amount of time you could have used to browse a youtube video with better in depth explanations. It's just lazy.

It's not my job to teach each and every player that I encounter the mechanics and intricacies of every boss fight, yet I'm forced to do it all the time.

SE might as well pump that custom API out for UI addons so we can hurry up and get the automated auto pilot voice telling us what to do and what mechanics are coming up in every fight so we can complete the conversion to being a game for hand holding cash shop loving babies.

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Originally Posted by Alunari

I always watch the videos by both, they are very good at giving you an idea of the fight, however watching and doing are two different things.

It does make it easier going in with an idea of the fights and what will happen, but it doesn't mean that you are going to be step perfect, videos can help immensely, but nothing beats getting into the fight and putting what you've learnt in the videos into practice ... and it does still take practice.

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I noted in my post that videos are not experience. The OP went in for a non-blind run, and expected to be told mechanics when he could have gotten mechanics told to him by a video without wasting the group's time. No one is saying that videos can replace experience, only that videos should be watched in place of asking groups for explanations.

Gods the elitism being shown by some of the people in this thread is stomach churning. Ugh.

A lot of people seem to conveniently forget, or just really never bother to think about it, but...people learn in different ways.


For those of you who are constantly sitting there saying, watch a video before going in! and so on...it is abundantly clear to me that this lot of people either do not know, do not care to know, or just simply have forgotten that there are 3 types of learners.

Audio: Basically they learn by listening and hearing what is being told to them

Visual: Learns via Charts, Graphs, or even Videos one might say

Kinesthetic: These people learn by doing. Actual hands on stuff. You know, diving into a dungeon and learning the mechanics...like everyone does the first time content is released.

Every Minutiae of a video will not be remembered. Every detail of a guide, will not be remembered. Kinesthtic learners especially are not going to remember every minute detail. I've watched videos to try and refresh my brain after a years absence on some dungeons and when I get in I still find myself struggling to remember what the video said on old and indeed new content.

Don't want to deal with constant wipes or even the most minor of issues? Form a party on your own, old FFXI style where people used to sit there forming their own parties to go level. Then you have a right to gripe.

But don't seriously go in expecting your elitist stubborn, pig headed view to be the rule of law in Duty Finder. Crimeny. I've heard constant cries of entitlement in other circles best attributed to conversations outside of gaming but never have I seen a community so thoroughly rife with a sense of entitlement as this one has.

You know what? I'm a tank. Pld and Drk. If someone is new, I explain it to them, always. I am always more than happy to help people and explain mechanics they might not understand. I went through several, several, Ravana fights with new people and I always took the time and had the patience to work through it with the group and the clear was always attained.

If you don't want to explain things, if you want to have that sense of entitlement, fine. Feel free to do so. Just realize the only person to blame when you are eating dirt along with the rest of the group is because you refused to speak up and help in addition to the rest of the group that decided to remain silent.

You have only yourselves to blame. Period. It takes literally all of less than a minute to give a quick, brief, concise run down on most mechanics. I do it repeatedly without issue and always ask and most of the time can get a quick rundown as well.

If someone comes in, says hey I am new, can you give me a brief rundown...and if everyone refuses and just jumps in...well...

The group only has themselves to blame. Not the newbie. Period and end of story. If someone is intentionally trying to learn, and do their best, and heeding the advice you give, cut them some slack. You were new once too you know. Might do some good to remember the kindness another individual bestowed upon you and perhaps return it?

Like I said. This community has a massive sense of entitlement. If even the slightest thing goes wrong, everyone goes off like a 5 year old raging at the internet. It's hilarious. Especially all of these entitled responses of "Watch a video and don't be a burden to your group or we'll kick you! "

Right. Because heaven forbid your raid take 5 more minutes...

Yeesh.


OP. You did nothing wrong. Requeue, try again. It's all you can do man. Duty Finder, you are playing roulette. No telling what kind of people you are going to get. Just keep trucking. Yes, it sucks. But you do eventually find people willing to help, like myself...instead of those whose sense of self importance is above all else in their eyes.

People don't logon to teach pugs, they really don't. If you can't be bothered to read up/watch a video then I can't be bothered to group with you? it's a pretty simple concept that has been in gaming ever since the internet was invented.

I have a strong feeling the Op wanted an explanation on what to do, but no one said anything, and they proceeded to wipe, then he ran to the forums.

Read up, educate yourself, stop wasting 7 other peoples time, the end.

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Originally Posted by Dracosavarian

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Don't really see how its elitist or unreasonable to want people to read up as much as they can prior to going into a duty rather than after going into it, but okay.

And again, I don't think anyone is saying guides are a replacement for experience. A hands-on learner has NO advantages from a player explanation right before a fight over watching a video/reading a guide before a fight. They will learn from experience the best either way, so again, it's pointless to try and get an explanation right before a fight vs researching it ahead of time.

Expecting people to type out a quick summary (which might I remind you, is likely not going to prepare you adequately), or even worse, a long drawn out explanation of a fight right before it happens is pretty entitled and pointless though...why not get that done before doing a duty? Why make people waste their time for no reason?

Not to mention, trying to read a player explanation and get a good idea of mechanics is like cramming for a test an hour before it happens. It's just not going to beat having plenty of time to study (AKA the time you have to watch videos/read guides before you do a duty) in allowing you to be prepared.