Bowharp and the Death of RNG

its strings conneceted to a hole in the bottom and wrapped around the wood on the top. Strangely enough, the actual nocked arrow has no arrow head.

Starting to think its just a fancy bow, even if archer gets a bard job, making a new weapon for it is a bad idea, it would invalidate all re existing archer weapons, because they dont have a bow. and since i doubt they are going to make a whole bunch of bowharps from level 20-50, or make a job transition into a class that it cant play because of lack pf weapons. Its probably just a fancy bow with no harp utility at all.

not saying archer wont be a bard or that it will, but im pretty sure its just a non functional fancy weapon

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Originally Posted by Physic

Starting to think its just a fancy bow, even if archer gets a bard job, making a new weapon for it is a bad idea, it would invalidate all re existing archer weapons, because they dont have a bow. and since i doubt they are going to make a whole bunch of bowharps from level 20-50, or make a job transition into a class that it cant play because of lack pf weapons. Its probably just a fancy bow with no harp utility at all.

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I think this is the strongest evidence for the "Archer is Not Part Bard" side of this speculation. The evidence there speaks for itself, but just to play Devil's Advocate - what if Jobs, like Classes, are activated by switching to a weapon associated with the job and not the class? It would be the easiest for them to implement, based on the armory system. Perhaps one changes into the Job form BECAUSE they equip bowharp - just for argument's sake.

just occured to me how they could execute barcher without ruining the future of bards, by adding another hidden class like sentinel but for instruments. A future bard could use the same abilities, to even better effect. barcher would then be like the conjurer with sheild skills, and a limited selection of skills.

Of course doesnt solve the problem of archers who never wanted to be support, but the excution may not be super support.

Anyhow, if you think about it an archer with group buffs, would be fairly indespensible,

It's certainly strange, but the more I think about it, the more interested I am in seeing it. I think it would be fun to fire off a few arrows, then play a tune to buff the party dmg output, then fire off a few more arrows, then play a tune to debuff the monsters. I think something like this would actually encourage me to play a Bard as its something I've never really had an interest in before.

Honestly, this is the exact reason why I love Final Fantasy games. They think outside the norm. I mean really, would have thought of Gunblades before FF8 (I had never heard of them), but now everyone wants one.

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Originally Posted by Physic

just occured to me how they could execute barcher without ruining the future of bards, by adding another hidden class like sentinel but for instruments. A future bard could use the same abilities, to even better effect. barcher would then be like the conjurer with sheild skills, and a limited selection of skills.

Of course doesnt solve the problem of archers who never wanted to be support, but the excution may not be super support.

Anyhow, if you think about it an archer with group buffs, would be fairly indespensible,

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Aye, I'm still waiting for another off-hand class. There's no way they made the system just so shields would work.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I think this is the strongest evidence for the "Archer is Not Part Bard" side of this speculation. The evidence there speaks for itself, but just to play Devil's Advocate - what if Jobs, like Classes, are activated by switching to a weapon associated with the job and not the class? It would be the easiest for them to implement, based on the armory system. Perhaps one changes into the Job form BECAUSE they equip bowharp - just for argument's sake.

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this could in fact be the case, but that would have to make a lot of weapons, and it would mean almost all old gear is completely useless, except for some soloing.
from 20-50, lets say you get a weapon at least every 5 levels, thats 7 weapons per class, they would have no horizontal stats. so they would have to pump out 49 new weapons. No offense, but i dont think they have done that much work in new designs in the year since this game came out, i doubt they would have that ready in 4 - 6 months

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Originally Posted by Physic

No offense, but i dont think they have done that much work in new designs in the year since this game came out, i doubt they would have that ready in 4 - 6 months

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There's great points for and against, I just like discussion.

No offense, but at this pace, I don't think they're going to have that much ready in 4~6 months regardless of whether or not we're going to be seeing changing weapons, lol.

Weren't BRD's in FF11 upset over not being able to do any dmg? So why are they upset in FF14 about being able to shoot a bow? Impossible to statisfy much... Also this is a perfect path for ARC cuase RNG would be totally redundant.

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Originally Posted by Ottovonawesome

Weren't BRD's in FF11 upset over not being able to do any dmg? So why are they upset in FF14 about being able to shoot a bow? Impossible to statisfy much... Also this is a perfect path for ARC cuase RNG would be totally redundant.

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I agree with this. What could a Ranger bring to the table that an Archer couldn't? Possibly a pet, but wouldn't that be more like a Beastmaster anyways? I think a bow-wielding Bard sounds like an interesting twist for the job.

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Originally Posted by Shift

I agree with this. What could a Ranger bring to the table that an Archer couldn't? Possibly a pet, but wouldn't that be more like a Beastmaster anyways? I think a bow-wielding Bard sounds like an interesting twist for the job.

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And we've arrived, full-circle, to my claim on page one that Ranger, being not "ranged attack" but "ranges (the verb) a territory," chances are it'll be more like a BST. Way to bring that logic home, you two ^u^ -- I am still pretty surprised there's been no official activity prodded by all the barcher talk.

I may be excited to try a class that doesn't even exist, afterall.

Let me get this straight...

Going by FFXI BRD standard:

Bards could boost virtually any stat. Boost attack/damage output. Boost accuracy. AOE most of those boosts to affect other party members. They had their own Sleep. Haste.

I am not sure what the complaint is here. I mean if you guys don't want all of that on top of the already ridiculous damage you do then feel free to protest further...I am sure one of the other classes will gladly take those abilities.

I do not recall them giving a hint about how much they were going to adjust the mage classes like they did in 1.18 but that seemed to work out ok. Maybe we should wait and see how they do this if they do it at all. Who knows maybe it was just a really bad art rendering of something else and it's not even a harp at all.

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Originally Posted by Ottovonawesome

Weren't BRD's in FF11 upset over not being able to do any dmg? So why are they upset in FF14 about being able to shoot a bow? Impossible to statisfy much... Also this is a perfect path for ARC cuase RNG would be totally redundant.

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Adding bard as a job for archer is a convolution of systems and definitions.

By definition, bard should be a class that uses musical instruments. In other words, it shouldn't be a job tacked onto archer. After all, in FFXIV, each class relates to a discipline of weaponry. So if a bard can shoot a bow, then he is an archer, and therefore he is not a bard.

The harp-bow just goes to show how an archer cannot be a bard. They had to invent a whole new "class" of weaponry just to make it happen, and that's because bard should have been a class unto itself.

The remedy for this whole debacle of course would be for SE to just not lock jobs to specific classes, and then you could negate the whole issue of what job becomes what class, since the problem simply wouldn't exist.

Bard could then be freed up to be implemented in the future as a separate class with an appropriate non-hybrid bow-instrument tool.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

I can tell you that it is in fact a bow that transforms.

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Where's Mog? MOG! .... MOOOOOOOG. You never answered my question:

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose (Paraphrased)

If speculation that turns out to be wrong makes people look like idiots, does the pendulum swing back the other way if my speculation is right and make me look like a prophetic genius? Or can we just agree that speculation is a good way to welcome fresh content, form our opinions, and wait out official word?

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I, for one, welcome our new Bowharp overlords.

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Originally Posted by Shift

I think a bow-wielding Bard sounds like an interesting twist for the job.

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But it isn't a bard, it's an archer.


What they should have done is create jobs as a layer ABOVE classes, allowing any job to use any weapon. This would allows players to switch between multiple weapons (classes) during battle. If they added bard as a class, you could switch between both bow (archer) and harp (bard) during battle, without the need for a crazy harpbow hybrid to make it possible.

Seems like an oversight or step in the wrong direction.

I don't see SE creating a class ("job" here) as being a problem.

They created the red mage, the blue mage, the arithmetician, and many other classes, a lot of them being hybrids. It has to start somewhere. It's too restrictive to say "You can't do that." The innovations stop there.

I'm very interested in how a bardic archer will apply in game.

I mean, really. Stop and think about what they are doing before you praise it and say im stupid. Now a warrior can only use one weapon, a black mage can only use one weapon, a dragoon can only use one weapon, a thief can only use one weapon.

If that doesn't seem like a problem to you yet, think. In FFXI, every job could use multiple weapons. Every other MMO has jobs using multiple weapons.

When SE said they are locking jobs to classes, they are basically saying that jobs will be locked to one weapon.

IT IS RETARDED.

I don't know why you guys can't see that their attempt to shove a job system where it doesn't belong simply won't work. And this is most true for bard where they had to add a whole new weapon to justify shoving the job in there.

Players should be able to pick a job, and then pick a class as a separate thing. The class you are should not dictate your job. The job you are should dictate your job, and let you swap classes/weapons freely thereafter.

The whole thing is quite frankly f**ked to high heaven just because the players cried so hard to have FF jobs, forcing SE to make a snap/rash decision to implement them without even considering the repurcussions.

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

In FFXI, every job could use multiple weapons. Every other MMO has jobs using multiple weapons.

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To be fair, in FFXI and every other MMO you played AS your job PERFORMING with a weapon, in FFXIV you play AS your weapon class and PERFORM a job. I'm not necessarily praising it quite yet, but that's just how it is. I'm sure there will still be a high degree of customization depending on which weapon classes you've leveled up. It might be unconventional, but I don't see why that means it has to lack potential.

It might make me an outcast but [ducks behind wall and shouts from behind it] I'm rather looking forward to trying it out. If it's not good, I'm sure demands for variance will be hammered into the forums in a universal torrent of fan-base nerdrage.

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Originally Posted by Ottovonawesome

Weren't BRD's in FF11 upset over not being able to do any dmg? So why are they upset in FF14 about being able to shoot a bow? Impossible to statisfy much... Also this is a perfect path for ARC cuase RNG would be totally redundant.

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The most in-demand class in the game is being made into the most in-demand job in the game... and they're crying about it.

I'll never understand Final Fantasy players. -_-;

It could still transform into a crossbow, I guess. Idk.

I'm too caught up imagining the character animations for if the Barcher would whip his hand up, collapse the bow, and play a quick tune, sending colors and lights flying in a buff, and then whipping it back open into bow-form like an XIII weapon and getting back to business on the DD. All one handed, aside from the strumming.

Sounds badass as hell.

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

I mean, really. Stop and think about what they are doing before you praise it and say im stupid. Now a warrior can only use one weapon, a black mage can only use one weapon, a dragoon can only use one weapon, a thief can only use one weapon.

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To be honest, I wouldnt care if blm or drg could only use one weapon, hell id use those weapons with them anyways. But if WAR stems from MRD like most people seem to be speculating, then that downright is plain stupid. WAR is not an Axeman, it maybe his purely strongest weapon throughout the series, but a WAR is a weaponsmaster, thats why they are a Disciple of WAR. If WAR cannot use multiple weapons borrowing from all disciples of war, then i see no point in the class to be honest.

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Originally Posted by AceofRains

To be honest, I wouldnt care if blm or drg could only use one weapon, hell id use those weapons with them anyways. But if WAR stems from MRD like most people seem to be speculating, then that downright is plain stupid. WAR is not an Axeman, it maybe his purely strongest weapon throughout the series, but a WAR is a weaponsmaster, thats why they are a Disciple of WAR. If WAR cannot use multiple weapons borrowing from all disciples of war, then i see no point in the class to be honest.

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This is true - very true - Warrior is supposed to be a swiss army knife. It's too bad FFXI set the standard that WAR=AXE. Then again, people won't shut up about "WE WANT FFXI-2!" and "MAKE IT MORE LIKE FFXI!" so... I guess we get what we asked for.

Maybe this'll teach all those f***ers who, back in November, made such a stink about "We don't like freedom! We need structure! Defined roles! Unique jobs! Restricted gear!" to keep their twelvedamn mouth shut next time.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

To be fair, in FFXI and every other MMO you played AS your job PERFORMING with a weapon, in FFXIV you play AS your weapon class and PERFORM a job. I'm not necessarily praising it quite yet, but that's just how it is. I'm sure there will still be a high degree of customization depending on which weapon classes you've leveled up. It might be unconventional, but I don't see why that means it has to lack potential.

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Emphasis on "a" job. And that's why it sucks.

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

Emphasis on "a" job. And that's why it sucks.

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If anything, I'd expect them to expand it so that you'd be able to perform more than one job with a weapon instead of more than one weapon with a job. Same shit in the end, though - Just semantics.

Why the hell does everyone keep thinking Archer is going to be a Bard?

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

This is true - very true - Warrior is supposed to be a swiss army knife. It's too bad FFXI set the standard that WAR=AXE. Then again, people won't shut up about "WE WANT FFXI-2!" and "MAKE IT MORE LIKE FFXI!" so... I guess we get what we asked for.

Maybe this'll teach all those f***ers who, back in November, made such a stink about "We don't like freedom! We need structure! Defined roles! Unique jobs! Restricted gear!" to keep their twelvedamn mouth shut next time.

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I can't like this post enough. Back when people were bitching and moaning about lack of class definition ruining the game and the absolute 100% need for everything to be restricted, I tried to argue on the side of keeping the freedom. Freedom lost that one. Now that people are getting it, cue more bitching.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

If anything, I'd expect them to expand it so that you'd be able to perform more than one job with a weapon instead of more than one weapon with a job. Same shit in the end, though - Just semantics.

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Yes and you will wait 2 years for 5 new jobs to be released.

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Originally Posted by Corrderio

Why the hell does everyone keep thinking Archer is going to be a Bard?

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I'll sum the 50 pages of 3 threads up for you:
Look at this guy's bow. Okay, now I'll re-enact the progression for you. Pretend after every line I'm using a different one of those voices people use to imitate eachother.

Oh, my god. What's on his bow?!
That looks like a harp!
It's not a harp!
I'm so glad we're going to be able to play BARCHER!
F**K BARCHER!
I HATE YOSHI-P BECAUSE WE'RE GETTING BARCHER.
I, FOR ONE, LOVE THE IDEA THAT WE'RE GETTING BARCHER!
Guys, are we sure it's a bow-harp?
I CAN'T WAIT TO PLAY BARCHER.
I DIDN'T LEVEL ARCHER TO BUFF.
Hail! I am a Community rep and I can confirm that the bow transforms.
YAAAAAAAYYYYY
NUUUUUUUU
Transforms into wh-
BARCHERRRRRR!!!!

Empirical Evidence
It looks like a lyre (a type of harp). If you fold it up, it looks even MORE like a lyre. It could be a crossbow, but even the symbol carved into the bow and shape of the outer border are very akin to styles used for musical instruments. Particularly the flourish on the handle, you'd expect to see that on a violin.

Square-Enix supposedly released somewhere what jobs would be coming first - and ARC and BRD are the only two left over after you match up all the obvious ones. Combine this with the above? Barcher. Probably. (By probably, I mean maybe.)

It could still be a crossbow after transformation. But come on, what does it look like to you? Obviously it doesn't transform into a pez dispenser.

EDIT: Bonus fact - Archer turning into Ranger would be redundant. They're the same job. Combine this with what I said on the first page about Rangers not being "ranged attackers" but people who "range over an area" and ARC >> RNG sounds just as silly, if not sillier, than barcher.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Stuff

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Okay I'm starting to see it now. I was hoping myself they'd add a class for Bard though.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Could go either way, but the latter isn't new, fun to think about, or fun to discuss. And, IMO, they didn't reaaally manage with WHM, it, don't hit me now, looks pretty anticlimactic for a first look at the job. It's a CON base, so it could be attacking but if a WHM isn't healing, what's it good for?

Maybe that's how a barcher ... barches. I doubt the buffs would be the focus of the job, I assume arching would still be pretty big... since... if that's a bowharp it's still like 65% bow.

Again, just nice to have something new to talk about.


Scapes!? Did you jump servers?? lol

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Yeah, I wanted a fresh start and decided to bounce servers. I cant /wave to ya anymore but I see you posting on here daily ^^

if you remember the current battle systems is finshed >.>

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I'll sum the 50 pages of 3 threads up for you:
Look at this guy's bow. Okay, now I'll re-enact the progression for you. Pretend after every line I'm using a different one of those voices people use to imitate eachother.

Oh, my god. What's on his bow?!
That looks like a harp!
It's not a harp!
I'm so glad we're going to be able to play BARCHER!
F**K BARCHER!
I HATE YOSHI-P BECAUSE WE'RE GETTING BARCHER.
I, FOR ONE, LOVE THE IDEA THAT WE'RE GETTING BARCHER!
Guys, are we sure it's a bow-harp?
I CAN'T WAIT TO PLAY BARCHER.
I DIDN'T LEVEL ARCHER TO BUFF.
Hail! I am a Community rep and I can confirm that the bow transforms.
YAAAAAAAYYYYY
NUUUUUUUU
Transforms into wh-
BARCHERRRRRR!!!!

Empirical Evidence
It looks like a lyre (a type of harp). If you fold it up, it looks even MORE like a lyre. It could be a crossbow, but even the symbol carved into the bow and shape of the outer border are very akin to styles used for musical instruments. Particularly the flourish on the handle, you'd expect to see that on a violin.

Square-Enix supposedly released somewhere what jobs would be coming first - and ARC and BRD are the only two left over after you match up all the obvious ones. Combine this with the above? Barcher. Probably. (By probably, I mean maybe.)

It could still be a crossbow after transformation. But come on, what does it look like to you? Obviously it doesn't transform into a pez dispenser.

EDIT: Bonus fact - Archer turning into Ranger would be redundant. They're the same job. Combine this with what I said on the first page about Rangers not being "ranged attackers" but people who "range over an area" and ARC >> RNG sounds just as silly, if not sillier, than barcher.

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ranger could be more along the lines of woodsman, with more debuffs, various arrows, traps etc. Ranger would probably have been a more natural specialisation for archer, but i think they needed to make a new support class, and if ranger was a control/dd they would have too many DDs I think this descion was made mostly from a lets make the roles we need in a party using the jobs we have. In all honesty while im not against a ministrel archer, They kind of destroying bard futures here, unless they are very very slick

The problem with Archer breaking down to Bard is that the progression is asinine. An instrument playing class like Musician or something should have been introduced, and then broken down as Bard, and Archer should have broken down into something else like some kind of ranger or assassin wielding different arrows or something. Those kinds of progressions make sense.

Wielding a bow and a musical instrument are 2 completely different kinds of disciplines that in ANY kind of practical world, fantasy or otherwise, both require completely separate dedication and have nothing to do with one another.

Much like sticking a feather up your butt does not make you a chicken, sticking a harp/lyre/trumpet/whatever on a bow does not make an Archer a musician.

By trying so hard to preserve the tradition of FF games and add a bard, they forgot to preserve the tradition of FFXIV's armory system.

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Originally Posted by Travesty

The problem with Archer breaking down to Bard is that the progression is asinine. An instrument playing class like Musician or something should have been introduced, and then broken down as Bard, and Archer should have broken down into something else like some kind of ranger or assassin wielding different arrows or something. Those kinds of progressions make sense.

Wielding a bow and a musical instrument are 2 completely different kinds of disciplines that in ANY kind of practical world, fantasy or otherwise, both require completely separate dedication and have nothing to do with one another.

Much like sticking a feather up your butt does not make you a chicken, sticking a harp/lyre/trumpet/whatever on a bow does not make an Archer a musician.

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this is the biggest problem i agree, the concept is interesting, but before this job existed there should have been a bard like class, or musician class, and barcher should have been a hybrid of these classes. They are really short changing bard here. IF it does in fact end up being bard. The real problem with this job direction, is it requires ALOT more jobs. and it should probably use some class combinations at the very least. They basically, with this system, need to cover all the role possibilities, and add a bunch of ground level classes. For each of these jobs they now have set the standard of having artifact armor and quest related skill and armor progression.

Since just armor takes 6 months, and they currently are only thinking about what the other jobs would be according to the last interview, how long in the future does that put these other jobs? 1 year? 2 years? way too long

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Originally Posted by Physic

this is the biggest problem i agree, the concept is interesting, but before this job existed there should have been a bard like class, or musician class, and barcher should have been a hybrid of these classes. They are really short changing bard here. IF it does in fact end up being bard. The real problem with this job direction, is it requires ALOT more jobs. and it should probably use some class combinations at the very least. They basically, with this system, need to cover all the role possibilities, and add a bunch of ground level classes. For each of these jobs they now have set the standard of having artifact armor and quest related skill and armor progression.

Since just armor takes 6 months, and they currently are only thinking about what the other jobs would be according to the last interview, how long in the future does that put these other jobs? 1 year? 2 years? way too long

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True. Archer and bard are scarcely related at all. So it's like they are just adding the jobs they want to add and then attaching them to whichever class they feel like, regardless of whether it makes sense or not. And the logical conclusion of this is that they're just really fixated on implemented jobs. " And to hell with consequences!"

But if they are going to make a job for every possible role (musician buffer for example) and add a new weapon for each role (see barcher), then why not just replace the whole armory system? It's evident that this is what they want to do anyway.

It looks so unprofessional what they have done; mutilating their own game to the point of nonsense.

Gosh SE, either add systems so they complement existing systems, or don't add them.

Most of my issues with the archer/bard conjunction don't even really have to do with that specific class/job. I think the Job system as a whole is going the wrong way.

It makes me kind of angry how people disregard most of Userwhosywhatsit's posts because of the alleged connection to Gifthorse/force whatever. His points are perfectly valid and reflect my own opinions most adequately, if a touch more glibly.

If they are going to introduce jobs they should do it in a manner that first of all makes sense, (I'm sorry but Barcher is no.) but more importantly expands on and interacts well with the armory system. Granted we really don't have enough information to be purely for or against it... but I'm not about to wait until they've spent months developing something before I start voicing my concern.

If the least I accomplish is to get them to SHARE THEIR PLAN... then I've succeeded.

P.S. "A bow that transforms" is not cool... not even if it turns into Optimus Prime.

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

But if they are going to make a job for every possible role (musician buffer for example) and add a new weapon for each role (see barcher), then why not just replace the whole armory system? It's evident that this is what they want to do anyway.

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Indeed. And maybe that's what they SHOULD do. It would be a whole hell of a lot better than butchering classes to make a square peg fit a round hole.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Square-Enix supposedly released somewhere what jobs would be coming first - and ARC and BRD are the only two left over after you match up all the obvious ones. Combine this with the above? Barcher. Probably. (By probably, I mean maybe.)

EDIT: Bonus fact - Archer turning into Ranger would be redundant. They're the same job. Combine this with what I said on the first page about Rangers not being "ranged attackers" but people who "range over an area" and ARC >> RNG sounds just as silly, if not sillier, than barcher.

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First: link us where SE officialy released the first 7 jobs. A picture of it carved in stone would be nice.
Second: What is it about pug going mnk lnc going drg and gla going pld isn't redundant.

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Originally Posted by CptnGamble

First: link us where SE officialy released the first 7 jobs. A picture of it carved in stone would be nice.
Second: What is it about pug going mnk lnc going drg and gla going pld isn't redundant.

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It completely is. That's why I am anxious about the job system... It largely seems to be a waste.