No new SMNs for SMN?

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Originally Posted by Asierid

SCH comes with 0 abilties which affect the summon, where as SMN has 2 (Spur and Enkindle).

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SCH has Rouse. Which affects the summon. Also, they're getting a "die for me little fairy" spell in extension. That makes 2.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

SCH has Rouse. Which affects the summon. Also, they're getting a "die for me little fairy" spell in extension. That makes 2.

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Rouse is an ACN ability. SCH as of now gets no new abilities that boost their summons, but instead their own healing spells.

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Originally Posted by Delily

Just to nitpick, both have Rouse. It's ACN, ability, but I tend to chain together Rouse, Fey Illumination, and Whispering Wind, but that's a topic for a different conversation.

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The argument is between SMN and SCH. ACN has no place in a discussion about lv 50 and the upcoming lv 60 abilities, especially considering both can use ACN abilities.

Point stands. SCH is no summoner. SCH just so happens to be a healer that has to rely on a fairy (that it has no synergy with, no less) to be decent. I find it strange that the healer is the one that has to sacrifice the pet for a boost instead of the SMN, but whatever works I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

SCH has Rouse. Which affects the summon. Also, they're getting a "die for me little fairy" spell in extension. That makes 2.

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We went over this, Rouse is out of the question due to the above. The sac fairy skill counts, sure. But it still does not make the SCH anywhere close to a "summoner", which is what people are attempting to hint at.

This thread really boils down to people wanting a new summon, or wanting summoner to be like XI. The new summon would more than likely suck compared to Garuda/Ifrit, and XI is a completely different game. Stop asking.

As I said earlier, I fail to see why there are complaints judging by the choices they had. Either they give you a new, gimped summon without the rework, or you get what you have coming now. They could have went the WAR route in 2.0 and said you are "fine" before changing it months later.

The FC summoning stuff is what I'm holding out for. At that point I'll be summoner. They mentioned it a little bit ago, said its still in the works but has been pushed to the back burner, not off the stove.

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

The FC summoning stuff is what I'm holding out for. At that point I'll be summoner. They mentioned it a little bit ago, said its still in the works but has been pushed to the back burner, not off the stove.

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don't hold your hopes high. They promised it as far back as 2.0. That's been 2 years. Still not done. The only good news so far is that they never gave up on developing it. Same for add-ons

I never played FFXI so don't know what summoners were like in that game, actually, don't much care. I have become accustomed to SMN in FFXIV, I never abandoned the job even at its worst. My static never forced or even asked me to change, bosses died in the end, which was the goal. I consider the egi as an extension of my SMN, not the other way around. I am looking forward to the changes in Heavensward. A couple of new things in my arsenal, probably a few things I don't know about yet. I like to wait until I have all the facts before coming to any conclusions.

I came to FFXIV with friends from SWTOR after the F2P debacle. I think I was fortunate that I had no preconceptions about FF games since it seems that no one wants to play FFXIV but pines to return to the golden days of FFXI. I read about some elemental wheel, which FFXIV does not have, so, that being the case, what would be the reason for more summons? We have tank and 2 dps, melee and ranged. I guess I just don't get the hoopla.

While I find it true that the current egis are ugly little blobs, it is what it is. Maybe pet glamours will help, maybe not. As it is, I use Ifrit mostly, Garuda depending on situation. Even used Titan to tank first boss of Sastasha HM after tank went AFK. Still working on T13, delay on finishing due more to static work scheduling than anything else. All in all, I am happy with the game (except the god awful RNG), happy with my SMN, happy about the upcoming changes. I am most happy that I never played FFXI so that I can enjoy this game and not spend all my time waxing nostalgic about the good old days.

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Originally Posted by Kaaylryn

While I find it true that the current egis are ugly little blobs, it is what it is. Maybe pet glamours will help, maybe not. As it is, I use Ifrit mostly, Garuda depending on situation. Even used Titan to tank first boss of Sastasha HM after tank went AFK. Still working on T13, delay on finishing due more to static work scheduling than anything else. All in all, I am happy with the game (except the god awful RNG), happy with my SMN, happy about the upcoming changes. I am most happy that I never played FFXI so that I can enjoy this game and not spend all my time waxing nostalgic about the good old days.

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I secretly am in love with Ifrit egi, but am never willing to use him because of contagion, he's also somewhat squishy

I actually look forward to egi-glamouring, because i hope that means i can make Garuda into Ifrit

Edit: Also, people who are unafraid of losing contagion and using Ifrit are a force to be reckoned with.

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Originally Posted by Asierid

What?

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Not to be rude, but I have a feeling that you don't know Sch/Smn very well. Sch does have an ability that affect their pet (rouse), but I'm not only talking about buffs I'm talking about how Sch and their pet work so well together. Both Sch and pet abilities compliment each other. Need to Adloquium the tank? Embrace got your back. Going to Succor the party? Whisper dawn can thrown on a little bit extra. Going to Eye for a Eye the tank or Sacred Soil the party? Fey Covenant can assist. OMG WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE hit about to come? Fey Illumination + Rouse + Whisper dawn + Succor = prepare to get a whole lot of commendations. The only thing that Smn does is buff his pet and tell them to enkindle. Say if Smn fester there's nothing that the pet can do to help assist with the burst damage its all on the Smn side. Maybe if Enkindle had a shorter CD then you can make the argument that Smn and pet works together.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

don't hold your hopes high. They promised it as far back as 2.0. That's been 2 years. Still not done. The only good news so far is that they never gave up on developing it. Same for add-ons

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i don't expect it any time soon. Something has to happen to the current Primal situation, Lore wise, before the primals would make sense to be wandering in the open world. While most of what Yoshi-P talked about during 1.0 and early 2.0 has come to pass, they are still working on a few things like the ones you mentioned. Still havent got our DX11 yet but its right around the corner. Still dont have swimming yet but i'm thinking thats slated for 4.0, etc. While i'm not going to hold my breath until its put in, I do believe it is coming. I was doubting it for a while there but, like I said, he commented on it at some point last month. It was a brief comment but it was there.

This video is how I imagine the team to have been working on this game. Considering they were handed a steaming pile of mess and had to turn it around with only a few months of down time, they have not had the luxuries most developers have. They werent able to create their vision, and then properly put it out there, they built it on the fly.

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- Work on add-ons has been postponed because priority was given to the development of Heavensward. After things settle down following the release of the expansion, they'll continue work on it. (Yoshida)
- There is still an implementation plan for the summoning system where adventurers can call a primal. Since there's currently a lot of content already planned to be implemented, it's been moved to the back of the list for now.

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Source

They have been moved to the back of the list, but they are still on the list.

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Originally Posted by Felis

This
It is time to buff also Monks ^^

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Ha they already did that a long time ago.
@op personally I'm pretty happy with what they're adding to summoner (from a first glance) but that's probably because I'm mostly content with the way the job is now. I do hope they made some worthwhile tweaks to the existing Egi though.

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

Woo

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Want to Bane things? Ifrit's got the cleave to help.

Moar DoTs? Garuda is your bro.

OMG GON DIE! Titan saves you.

I can play this game too. Now you're just laying out pet abilities for no reason. We get it, the fairy heals. Aside from Rouse, which SMN gets too BTW (Which has been mentioned numerous times here), SCH has nothing that affects the pet.

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Originally Posted by Asierid

Want to Bane things? Ifrit's got the cleave to help.

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Ifrit doesn't "cleave" the only thing Ifrit has is a 3y aoe that bearly hits anyone. Ifrit is mostly a single target pet and Bane is an aoe, so the 2 don't compliment each other.

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Originally Posted by Asierid

Moar DoTs? Garuda is your bro.

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Moar DoTs? lol do you mean extended DoT timers? Okay I give you this one, but this is 1 out of the 4 examples I gave for player and pet sync.

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Originally Posted by Asierid

OMG GON DIE! Titan saves you.

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For Solo I can understand Titan, but if you have to summon Titan in a 4 man dungeon or 8 man raids I feel sorry for the tank.

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Originally Posted by Asierid

Now you're just laying out pet abilities for no reason.

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If your going to have a "Whos better at being a Summoner" argument then Pet abilities come in to play.

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Originally Posted by Asierid

Aside from Rouse, which SMN gets too BTW (Which has been mentioned numerous times here), SCH has nothing that affects the pet.

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Actually, all of Sch's abilities affect their pets. Sch pet gets a DoT on them Leech it away. Sch pet low on life Adloquium them. Unless Smn is always sustaining (which both Sch and Smn have) their pet after they get hit with a hard hitting poison DoT that pet is going to die. Plus if the Smn is too focus on trying to keep their pet alive, their overall dps will crash and burn.

Wait when did this become an argument about SCH vs. SMN and more importantly, who has more abilities that affect their respective summon?

If you're not controlling your summon as a SMN you're doing it wrong. SCH only needs to control Eos realistically to make sure she doesn't blow Whispering Dawn at a bad time, but otherwise you can leave your fairy on sic. You also don't need to cast anything on it in most cases except Sustain because your fairy will heal itself. Selene you leave on sic because she uses her buffs on rotation at the perfect time. In dungeons you don't even have to command Eos because even having them on Obey, they will cast Embrace on anyone below 80% HP and you don't usually need whispering dawn.

SCH fairies augment their healing. SMN egis augment their damage. There isn't much of a difference besides SMN having to more closely control what their egi is doing.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

Whats going on here?

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Well you see we're having a argument about which job is better at holding the title of Summoner (abilities that compliment each other between player and pet). It starts 2 pages back you should go back and read. I been enjoying this alot.

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

Well you see we're having a argument about which job is better at holding the title of Summoner (abilities that compliment each other between player and pet). It starts 2 pages back you should go back and read. I been enjoying this alot.

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Actually, both of you are only half right. The issue is more of the fact that a summoner is, and has always been an odd mixture of damage and support. To apply this in light of the game's design of roles, those have to be split, and support always gets more utility than damage does.

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Originally Posted by Asierid

Point stands. SCH is no summoner. SCH just so happens to be a healer that has to rely on a fairy (that it has no synergy with, no less) to be decent. I find it strange that the healer is the one that has to sacrifice the pet for a boost instead of the SMN, but whatever works I suppose

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I don't understand how you mean by Synergy? Between us and the Pet?

Also SCH techinally IS a summoner, as you use the SUMMONERS soul stone.
>__> Sooo...

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

Ifrit doesn't "cleave" the only thing Ifrit has is a 3y aoe that bearly hits anyone. Ifrit is mostly a single target pet and Bane is an aoe, so the 2 don't compliment each other.

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Inferno and Flaming Crush. I was using cleave as a broad term for AoE.

The SCH examples are nothing more then pet abilities. This has nothing to do with the SCH buffing or otherwise utilizing the pet based on their own abilities except Rouse (Which SMN gets).

The whole point to this is: SMN has 2 (3 with Rouse) abilities that modify the summon to make it better. Which is the whole point of a summoner as written by the XIV team, to summon primal aether to fight for you and have abilities based around this fact, which they do. SCH has one. One that doesn't even come with the Job, therefore is excluded from this argument. SCH do not buff or otherwise modify Eos/Selene with their own skills.

By the literal definition, and with these abilities, SCH is nowhere near a "Summoner". It is a healing class that happens to have a familiar that does it's own thing. Summoner increases the damage of the summon, along with enabling them to use signature abilities (Which would be why SMN pets have 5 abilities and SCH pets have 4); this is something that SCH cannot access.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

I don't understand how you mean by Synergy? Between us and the Pet?

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You don't interact with the fairy. She stands there and does stuff to keep you alive, nothing more.

tl;dr: SMN doesn't need an egi. Be happy with what you have, as it is one of the biggest buffs to a DPS role that this game has seen so far.

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Originally Posted by Delily

Actually, both of you are only half right. The issue is more of the fact that a summoner is, and has always been an odd mixture of damage and support. To apply this in light of the game's design of roles, those have to be split, and support always gets more utility than damage does.

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I see what you mean, but Bard is a support class and they destroy most dps classes (if they're good) thats why they have to have QS. The only support abilities that Smn has is Eye for an Eye, virus (nerf into the ground), and Resurrection unless you want to add Tri-bind.

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Originally Posted by Asierid

Inferno and Flaming Crush. I was using cleave as a broad term for AoE.

The whole point to this is: SMN has 2 (3 with Rouse)

Summoner increases the damage of the summon, along with enabling them to use signature abilities (Which would be why SMN pets have 5 abilities and SCH pets have 4); this is something that SCH cannot access.

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So wait your adding the most underwhelming Smn ability (tri-bind is up there too) to the argument? Enkindle has a 5 min CD It's not something you just throw out their unless you don't care about it, and it doesn't affect your overall dps. Personally I see it as a Smn limit break because of the CD only. Anyway the argument I was making was about Player & Pet abilities complimenting each other, and how Smn have so little of that. It's not about Smn unlocking their pets 5 min CD ability thats a lore argument not a gameplay argument.

Also besides Rouse (which we agree doesn't count) the only other ability that buff Smn pet is Spur. Unless your talking about Enkindle which doesn't make them better, it just makes your pet do a cool lazer light show, then you have to wait 5 min for the next showing.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

Hey when they tell you a pet class ain't getting new pets.
I am not sure what you'd expect in terms of reactions lol.

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If the glamours for the EGI were actually out with Heavensward then that would have actually been something but another "sometime soon(tm)" promise is what knocked me the wrong way. Personally, I'm just tired of looking at the same damn egis, wanted something fresh.

Just wanted to say that while the question of whether SCH or SMN is more 'summoner-y' is beyond silly, it is still a better thing to discuss than the OP imo.

Carry on.

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Originally Posted by Asierid

OMG GON DIE! Titan saves you.

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Titan generates aggro like a Buddhist monk seeking enlightenment. Unless he was out BEFORE you pulled aggro, there's no chance in a million that he's going to save anyone. I can rip aggro from him in SOLO play, never mind if I had to summon him to take hits in a party where other DPS hit significantly harder than we do, since our damage is split 70/30 between us and pet.

Titan can't tank any more than we can.

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

Unless your talking about Enkindle which doesn't make them better, it just makes your pet do a cool lazer light show, then you have to wait 5 min for the next showing.

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That's pretty much traditional FF summons though.(Though the numbers are low)

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

Actually, all of Sch's abilities affect their pets. Sch pet gets a DoT on them Leech it away. Sch pet low on life Adloquium them. Unless Smn is always sustaining (which both Sch and Smn have) their pet after they get hit with a hard hitting poison DoT that pet is going to die. Plus if the Smn is too focus on trying to keep their pet alive, their overall dps will crash and burn.

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That's not synergy, that's simply a role difference. Healers are made to interact with their teammates, and your example the pet is just one of them.
All your examples are simply SCH and pet healing together, but not having any meaningful interaction outside of Rouse which isn't unique to it.

Similarly, the SMN and the pet do damage together.
And Contagion is a level of synergy beyond that.

Regardless, SMN is what it is because they summon Primal egis.
FF11 was the only where Summoners revolved around the pet anyway.
Yuna was a Summoner but her main role was a WHM.
Rydia was a Summoner, but her main role was a BLM.

Summons traditionally take a back seat to the Summoner and every iteration has changed.
The name has never held the meaning people are now giving it.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Titan generates aggro like a Buddhist monk seeking enlightenment. Unless he was out BEFORE you pulled aggro, there's no chance in a million that he's going to save anyone. I can rip aggro from him in SOLO play, never mind if I had to summon him to take hits in a party where other DPS hit significantly harder than we do, since our damage is split 70/30 between us and pet.

Titan can't tank any more than we can.

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Speaking for myself alone here, but calling shenanigans.

If you swap egis mid-fight solo, of course Titan is gonna be a bit in getting hate and doubly so if you are going balls to the wall DPS-wise. Now if you summon him, then turn a few seconds(i know, blasphemy! A DPS actually turning from a mob to help a tank get aggro!) and let him catch up, Titan is better than quite a few player tanks i have come across.

As for ripping aggro, again if you actually let Titan build up some hate and do things to support him(putting Sustain on him, casting E4E, and slowing down hate generation on your part), i find it hard to buy that you are consistently pulling hate from him.

Not getting into your conversation with Asierid, but again, just disagreeing with you claims about Titan-egi. No, summoning him isn't a 'get out of fiery death' card, but with proper deployment and use, he is not that bad a tank solo or even low-man.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Yuna was a Summoner but her main role was a WHM.

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No, it really wasn't. Aside from the story, where Aeons had the main focus and she was always referred to as a summoner, Yuna's summons had literally the strongest attacks in the game. Even Wakka's attack reels Overdrive couldn't match Anima's Overdrive. I see healing as her secondary function, rather than the other way around. By the end of the game, you don't care that Yuna can cast cure because everyone can cast cure. You just care that she has Ifrit to take a dive for you to survive that Megaflare or Anima to beat the nasty out of them with dozens of punches totaling millions of damage.

And FFT summoner had nothing else EXCEPT summons. They took a while to cast, but they were big, impressive and deadly. Incidentally, almost every instance of summons in the past has always had the emphasis on flashy cinematics and deadly potency.

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Originally Posted by Spiritreaver1217

As for ripping aggro, again if you actually let Titan build up some hate and do things to support him(putting Sustain on him, casting E4E, and slowing down hate generation on your part), i find it hard to buy that you are consistently pulling hate from him.

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Really? You're advocating 'slowing down' DPS? If you have to do that, then he's already failed as a tank. That was my point. Sure, he can tank if you stop doing your job and hold back every once in a while, but then so could the White Mage spamming Stone II in Cleric's Stance.

Titan lacks any abilities to grab aggro from the start (ie, no Provoke) so he can't be used in any kind of emergency. He also lacks the DPS to maintain aggro on anything. So no, he still sucks as a tank. As mentioned, if I can grab aggro as a soloist using Titan then there's something horribly wrong.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

No, it really wasn't. Aside from the story, where Aeons had the main focus and she was always referred to as a summoner, Yuna's summons had literally the strongest attacks in the game. Even Wakka's attack reels Overdrive couldn't match Anima's Overdrive. I see healing as her secondary function, rather than the other way around. By the end of the game, you don't care that Yuna can cast cure because everyone can cast cure. You just care that she has Ifrit to take a dive for you to survive that Megaflare or Anima to beat the nasty out of them with dozens of punches totaling millions of damage.


And FFT summoner had nothing else EXCEPT summons. They took a while to cast, but they were big, impressive and deadly. Incidentally, almost every instance of summons in the past has always had the emphasis on flashy cinematics and deadly potency.Really? You're advocating 'slowing down' DPS? If you have to do that, then he's already failed as a tank. That was my point. Sure, he can tank if you stop doing your job and hold back every once in a while, but then so could the White Mage spamming Stone II in Cleric's Stance.

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Her skill set was a WHM though. She didn't control the pet.
Sure, she gave access to the summons but the character had little to do with afterwards.

And if you want to talk about Sphere hopping. I literally one-shotted all the last bosses by giving Yuna Double-Ultima, so Summons didn't really matter at that point.
As I said, she's called a Summoner yet the character themselves were focused on healing and simply allowed access to the Aeons.
Her skill set was completely unrelated to the act of summoning and was the only WHM in the game, fulfilling a double role.

That's my point. All the main FF Summoners are not only Summoners, and the characters themselves have their own Jobs that really aren't about the Summons.
Other Jobs aren't like this. There are pure THF RDM, DRK, PLD, DRG, BLM, WHM etc. but SMN has not been pure.
That's been the nature of the Job.

If anything, you're right that SMN is usually cinematic.
If SE wanted to make a traditional Summoner, they would take out the pets completely and then you only summon then at like 3 minute cooldowns for a big attack.
Then the rest of the time, you forget you're a summoner for a while and fulfill some other role until the cooldown is back up.
But it's also telling that quite a few games simply allowed all characters to summons.
Because Summons are generally added flavor, but not really a role in itself.

And a SMN even having a pet really goes away from the classic theme of a big flashy move every once in a while. It's trivial when you can have these summons by your side all the time.

FFIXV's version is not a bad compromise though, with the new Bahamut Trance being a better take on combining caster and summons.
And, obviously, being pretty flashy.

Honestly I've never had trouble getting titan to hold aggro..but then again I've never really cared to be absolute perfectionist in my dps either, that kind of work doesn't appeal to me.

I think the glamour system they have planned for eggi's is far more exciting. They could potentially add as many skins as they want without having to worry about the balance of the game. You could have a little Diablos following you around. This system could offer far more than simply adding a couple of new pets with new actions.

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Originally Posted by Akira_Tenshi

I think the glamour system they have planned for eggi's is far more exciting. They could potentially add as many skins as they want without having to worry about the balance of the game. You could have a little Diablos following you around. This system could offer far more than simply adding a couple of new pets with new actions.

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See I am genuinely on board with this glamour idea provided they give us some options like shiva/ramuh ect.
Personally I would just love to replace garuda with a mini bismark whale or whatnot while still using her similar abilities. Lets hope this comes to fruition.