The constant disbanding of Steps of Faith

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

Thanks for your feedback.

Adjustments to ease the Steps of Faith trial are in the works, and we'll be announcing more information about the how and when soon enough!

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I hope there will be still a chance of fail if everyone ignore the mechanics after the adjustments.
Don't turn it into another tank&spank speedrun trial.

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Originally Posted by Felis

I hope there will be still a chance of fail if everyone ignore the mechanics after the adjustments.
Don't turn it into another tank&spank speedrun trial.

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Patch notes: Cannons are now NPC operated. Dragon Killer is now NPC operated. Vishap now moves half as fast. Trash mobs are now all Puks.

I did my trial roulette yesterday and got Steps with three first timers to boot. We downed Vishap with one dragon killer left to use on first attempt. Of course we took the time and asked who was new, had previous multiple clears and what everyone thought was the best course of action. It was like watching poetry in motion, so precise, so... right. All because of a little communication and some folks stepping up to do mechanics. If people aren't clearing it, it's because of two things:

1. Either someone or some people can't be bothered to do it right as has been stated multiple times I am sure. You can't zerg through this. Vishap is laughing at your meager attempts to harm him with weapons outside of cannons and dragon killers.
2. There is a miscommunication or no communication at all in regards to what should be done and who is doing it. Of all the trials this requires teamwork. From the tank down to the dps there is a place and time for practically everyone.

In short the disbanding is not because the trial is "hard", it is because people can't be bothered to play as a team. If they can't be the hero of the parser then they don't want anything to do with it most of the time.

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Originally Posted by Zaft

Patch notes: Cannons are now NPC operated. Dragon Killer is now NPC operated. Vishap now moves half as fast. Trash mobs are now all Puks.

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I can't wait for this patch to come, tank spank burn it down, move it along, NEXT!

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

It makes the Dragon Killers more meaningful, but overall less important. At present you can get away with missing 1 of them and still push through if you have the dps and LB3. Boost it and it certainly has a bigger impact on the fight but you can also afford to miss 1 even more than now.

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Only if the group's gear based DpS is good enough at which point the group was going to clear anyways quite possibly before the 3rd barrier is broken. Properly following the mechanics should win the fight with gear based DpS being a nice but not necessary component for victory.

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If all 3 Dragon Killers went off, the bombs blew up appropriately and everyone was on top of their game with cannons, adds and dps, nah haven't seen it (though certainly not denying it is quite possible). All wipes I've seen/experienced have resulted from either misuse of cannons, missed DKs or adds eating everyone's faces.

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Misuse/Failure to use cannons, missed DKs and uncontrolled Adds should be failure/near-failure conditions.

What we should not want is a nerf that makes 4 Dps beat on the boss ignoring Cannons and Dragonkillers a viable method of clearing the fight. Those who have that mentality that should be a viable strategy to complete Steps should not be able to clear it in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Zaft

Patch notes: Cannons are now NPC operated. Dragon Killer is now NPC operated. Vishap now moves half as fast. Trash mobs are now all Puks.

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I LOL'd so hard my nose bled. Dang this dry air O.o'

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Only if the group's gear based DpS is good enough at which point the group was going to clear anyways quite possibly before the 3rd barrier is broken. Properly following the mechanics should win the fight with gear based DpS being a nice but not necessary component for victory.


Misuse/Failure to use cannons, missed DKs and uncontrolled Adds should be failure/near-failure conditions.

What we should not want is a nerf that makes 4 Dps beat on the boss ignoring Cannons and Dragonkillers a viable method of clearing the fight. Those who have that mentality that should be a viable strategy to complete Steps should not be able to clear it in my opinion.

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I never said over-gearing was necessary though. I said that boosting the DKs simply had the result of making the 3rd DK even less important.

Also never argued that misuse of cannons, DKs and add control should lead to clear-able conditions.

-______-

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

Thanks for your feedback.

Adjustments to ease the Steps of Faith trial are in the works, and we'll be announcing more information about the how and when soon enough!

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Thats kinda disappointing....I liked the challenge that it brings...

Well I tried for ages to do this via duty finder and never even got close, always about 60%>70% HP left on Vishap, mobs all over the place and DPS not using the snares/cannons/dragon killer. This is even with discussing who's new and the strategy before hand. So in the end I made a party finder group which filled pretty quickly and we did it on our first go, even with the majority of us as first timers. Whilst the fight is actually very easy in it's mechanics in the same way T5 is, you just can't throw every type of player into it and expect a clear since it isn't the typical story mode tank & spank. I like what SE have done in that it requires coordination but as a story mode fight that is required for access to Heavensward it's too much with the current player base mind set. I still want SE to do this in the future but perhaps they should think a little more about the level of play in DF compared to people organising their own groups. I mean the difference between trying this endlessly in DF then breezing through it in PF was just crazy.

Oh and for the record I won't be doing Trial roulette anytime soon since I just know as a Tank I'll get this and it'll fail miserably. That in itself is a shame for those who need a Tank (or any other class) for trials.

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Increasing Dragon Killer damage so that successfully hitting with all three takes off 75% Vishap's hp instead of the 60% it does now? Good Adjustment in my opinion.

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Uhh, right now hitting with all three only takes off 20-21% of Vishap's health; I have no clue where you pulled 60% from.

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Consider this also: how many failed Steps have you seen where the group pulls off all mechanics, but Vishap still had less than 15% HP left?

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Not very many. Usually when the party fails it is a colossal failure, with adds swarming and overwhelming anyone who gets close around the last third of the fight, meaning Vishap is usually left with over half his HP still (sometimes a lot more than that).

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Originally Posted by Seiryuukishi

In short the disbanding is not because the trial is "hard", it is because people can't be bothered to play as a team. If they can't be the hero of the parser then they don't want anything to do with it most of the time.

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You nailed it with the working as a team part. Kinda making assumptions about being a parser hero. Many of those people probably don't even have one.

To fix this they should just have Vishap sit there and let you kill him.

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Originally Posted by Higashikata

To fix this they should just have Vishap sit there and let you kill him.

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Nah still too much, just make it a cut scene instead :P

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Originally Posted by VTanner

Nah still too much, just make it a cut scene instead :P

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That's brilliant, in the cutscene a piano falls from the sky killing vishap!

Then after that, we'd have the problem of the same people complaining it's too hard complain about not being able to find the duty's exit. I think they should just cut the fight all together to appease the lowest common denominator.

Everyone knows. Deep down. 5-10% echo if you make it to 1st Dragon killer.

Max of 25-50% echo.
This would be enough that many more people will get win... however...



Chains last longer 3 seconds longer with each echo upgrade.
NPC get Echo too.



But really give us more tomes.

The difficulty is fine, the fact that the trial takes 15-20 minutes to wipe is the problem. A reset option and/or adjustment to the rewards for clearing would make me use Trials Roulette again, and would stop most of the instant dropouts.

The only change Steps of Faith needs is the ability to reset the fight without having to wait until the end when you lose. Nerfs, no. People need to learn how to learn and work together. Stop expecting everything to be a face rollover like most of the MSQ has been so far. SE already said they wanted to make the game more challenging, time to learn how to play the game.

It doesn't need to be made easier; just put it in main story roulette. Then people might even like it vs the other options.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

It doesn't need to be made easier; just put it in main story roulette. Then people might even like it vs the other options.

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If people don't like it now, what makes you think punting it to the main story roulette will change it?

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

It doesn't need to be made easier; just put it in main story roulette. Then people might even like it vs the other options.

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That's a bandaid fix, the real issue is people will quit out, regardless of which roulette it's in. Will people quit out less? That's to be decided, but I echo the idea of having a force reset on the instance.

Just want to ask a question here.

I am about up to Steps of Faith now in my story. Should I bother trying to do it now if it's a huge issue getting it done at this point, or should I wait for the incoming nerf that a GM mentioned?

If it's really rare to get a party able to complete it or willing to try, I think I might save myself a headache by waiting. I'd like some input though.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Just want to ask a question here.

I am about up to Steps of Faith now in my story. Should I bother trying to do it now if it's a huge issue getting it done at this point, or should I wait for the incoming nerf that a GM mentioned?

If it's really rare to get a party able to complete it or willing to try, I think I might save myself a headache by waiting. I'd like some input though.

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I did 2 steps of faith yesterday, one on my alt and another to help a FC mate. Both were DF, and out of the 3 runs, only one failed horribly. I led both groups assigning roles and it went swimmingly:). Hell, I got 8 commendations in total.

I hope the only adjustment to the Steps of Faith is an instance reset. Once you make one-too-many mistakes from the trial, you cannot recover from it. Such a situation, however, can be easily avoided with some coordination. Whenever I get that instance in my trial roulette, I take the initiative and lead the group: designating a tank and healer on cannons & tethers while the 2nd tank and healer gather up mobs and solo-heal respectively. After that, it's just having the DPS burn the boss down and have the casters AoE the adds near Vishap with Fire IIs, Flares, and Baned DoTs. One DPS is assigned to the Dragonkiller, and landing a single shot of it is usually enough if your group is focused and know what to do with add burning and pushing their numbers (the solo-healer can even go to town with Cleric Stance DPS after the adds are no longer an issue for each checkpoint).

I'm apprehensive about what the adjustment(s) may be, but I hope it is nothing too crippling. After Amdapor Keep and Pharos Sirius got nerfed, they became completely boring. The content itself isn't too bad, but if the players cannot or do not want to clear the content or have to resort to buying a clear, the issue does not lie within the content but how the people handle it.

The only thing SoF needs is an instance reset.

Players who want to faceroll though everything don't need to clear this anyways. It's a game. A game has rules. This one's rules are that you can average dps and use your brain/eyes a little bit. Every SoF I've been in where roles have been assigned has gone down within 3 tries. The game is easy enough as it is, the player base doesn't need to have any more content gift-wrapped ad handed to them than they already have.

2.57 Tuesday, wonder if it'll include this change.

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

Thanks for your feedback.

Adjustments to ease the Steps of Faith trial are in the works, and we'll be announcing more information about the how and when soon enough!

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:/ This is why we can't have nice things.

I hope their rebuilt the fight instead of just nerfing it. As a DPS the fight is more mind numbing than most.

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Originally Posted by mbncd

2.57 Tuesday, wonder if it'll include this change.

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I doubt its a coincidence this post and patch 2.57 were both announced today.

The only change need to be made is 4 hour lockout for abandoning a duty. Game over.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

I did 2 steps of faith yesterday, one on my alt and another to help a FC mate. Both were DF, and out of the 3 runs, only one failed horribly. I led both groups assigning roles and it went swimmingly:). Hell, I got 8 commendations in total.

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Thank you for your advice :)

I actually just learned about the patch coming up though. If it changes SoF, I may not have time to do it before the patch hits and nerfs it unless I can get it done tonight since I won't be on for the weekend.

Oh well...it's a shame they're having to change it at all. Even the smallest amount of communication being needed makes people say "too hard, giving up".

I'm of the opinion that a lot of the issues with SoF could be solved if they just got rid of the damn turtle and replaced it with something else.
The primary mechanic for dealing with the adds is to herd them up and let the cannons hit them.
The turtle runs counter to this encounter for a few reasons:
1) It has an ability with a wide AOE in an encounter that already has wide AOEs. This is fine, I guess, but just adds more stuff to deal with.
2) It has high defense/HP. This would also not be a huge deal if not for the need to stun it. The longer it's alive, the more times it needs to be stunned. And stuns have diminishing returns.
3) It STOPS MOVING to cast its abilities. This means that it can and does end up separate from the rest of the mobs, preventing it from taking damage from the cannons. Since said cannons are also throwing out stuns...yeah.
4) It can become invulnerable, which just exacerbates problem #2.


I agree that SoF is easy if you pay attention to what you're doing (though I do agree a vote reset would be nice) but this turtle is just an unnecessary addition to the fight. It's not even technically a DRAGON, it's a freakin turtle!

Also they do kinda have to nerf the encounter a bit since it IS part of the main story, has no rewards, and serves as a roadblock to players. The minimum level is i90 for it. Do you REALLY expect newbies 6 months from now to have i130 gear when making their first grind to 60?
It isn't that it's marginally difficult that makes it in need of nerfing, its the position it has as a story quest that makes it in need of nerfing.
Though again, just getting rid of or changing the turtle would solve a lot of those issues.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

The only change need to be made is 4 hour lockout for abandoning a duty. Game over.

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Great! The number of people who just Disconnect rather than leave parties will just rise Exponentially under your advised changes! So instead of getting people who -abandon- steps of faith and eat a 30 minute timer, we'll just see people who DC and wait for 30 minutes while you have to wait 5 minutes -JUST TO BE ABLE TO KICK THEM-.

Seriously. I hate both sides of this arguement.

Ehhh, the real problem with SoF is that it makes absolutely no sense...relative to the rest of the game.

Think about it for a second. Normally, the MT takes the boss, the OT takes the adds, the healers heal everything, and the DPS are supposed to Adds > Boss on their kill priority.

Steps? The MT takes the adds, the OT is a pure DPS (cannon), one healer is the real MT (heal aggro), the other healer can be a DPS (cannon), and the DPS ignore the adds. Dragonslayer is normal-ish, but the long walk isn't.

In other words, you're forced to forget everything you know about your role. The "Main Healer" WANTS to heal before aggro so they intentionally pick up aggro. The MT DOESN'T want to run around picking up adds, and instead wants to wait for the "Main Healer" to start getting slapped. The other tank needs to completely forget everything they know about tanking and just fire cannons like it's a new DPS rotation. Melee DPS need to ignore the "diagonal quarters" when flanking because those result in stompy stompy. Ranged DPS need to stand in front of the boss.

If you're the adaptable sort, or if you play multiple jobs/games, this factor is a non-factor. For those who are either one-Job 50s or else are all-in on FFXIV, the mechanics of this fight are borderline inconceivable.

It's not impossible in DF though. I've cleared it several times on patch day and post-patch, including explaining the fight through a language barrier on the Elemental data center where nobody had their clear.

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Originally Posted by Aldracity

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Why is thinking outside the box a bad thing?
If anything the only problem in that regard is we don't do it more often, so when it DOES happen we get caught off-guard.

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Originally Posted by Higashikata

That's brilliant, in the cutscene a piano falls from the sky killing vishap!

Then after that, we'd have the problem of the same people complaining it's too hard complain about not being able to find the duty's exit. I think they should just cut the fight all together to appease the lowest common denominator.

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I can do you one better. Revamp the fight altogether. Instead of chasing down Vishap to kill him, he chases us while being chased by dragoons. If we don't make to the exit and leave before he gets to us, fail. We get no abilities to use not even sprint. His run speed is doubled and we have slow. Oh, as an extra bonus he is attacking the dragoons while chasing us. If even one dragoon dies, fail. /sarcasm

That right there goes to show you there are some far more evil than SE. Now if you think Steps is still hard... I can do this all day.

P.S. This was meant as a joke and yet serious at the same time. Steps could've been far worse.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Why is thinking outside the box a bad thing?
If anything the only problem in that regard is we don't do it more often, so when it DOES happen we get caught off-guard.

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Errr...your point exactly? This is the last encounter before Heavensward, yet it's also the first encounter that introduces mechanics which completely contort our standard MMO playstyles. In a vacuum this fight is great, but in the context of a random selection of players who just went through hundreds if not thousands of hours of holy trinity, it's a bloody mess. Yes it's absurdly easy if you have a party who knows what they're doing (or even half a party!), but that's not a good option for anyone on an underpopulated server or without a decent FC.

From a development standpoint, this probably is the fatal mistake that QA missed. Those are the guys who constantly try to contort their mentalities to break every possibility, yet I feel that everyone underestimated how rigid the average MMO player's mentality is, and how long it takes to soften that mentality.

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Originally Posted by Aldracity

Errr...your point exactly? This is the last encounter before Heavensward, yet it's also the first encounter that introduces mechanics which completely contort our standard MMO playstyles. In a vacuum this fight is great, but in the context of a random selection of players who just went through hundreds if not thousands of hours of holy trinity, it's a bloody mess. Yes it's absurdly easy if you have a party who knows what they're doing (or even half a party!), but that's not a good option for anyone on an underpopulated server or without a decent FC.

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...you just restated my point.

And yeah QA gets complacent a lot. Stoneskin II is because of them bitching

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

The only change need to be made is 4 hour lockout for abandoning a duty. Game over.

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Yeah, no. So currently I can (and do) abandon every SoF I end up in taking a 30 minute debuff because it's a better use of a half hour than watching that giant dragon trample over us two or three times in the same time span. You up that to 4 hours and instead I can just stand there and be kicked, vote abandon, or just wait out the 90 minute dungeon timer until it ends.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

If people don't like it now, what makes you think punting it to the main story roulette will change it?

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Easy, the other 2 MSQ roulette dungeons take more time. People will stay for a fight likely to take less time.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

That's a bandaid fix, the real issue is people will quit out, regardless of which roulette it's in. Will people quit out less? That's to be decided, but I echo the idea of having a force reset on the instance.

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If anything, the only problem with this solution is that people might ditch CM and praetorium more in favor of getting Steps of Faith.

Biggest issue I have with Steps of Faith is that you can wipe very early on, but you still have to wait for Vishap to walk slowly to the end. They really should just make it so you can't respawn and a full wipe results in a restart. Not sure if that would keep people around for it, but it would at least make the fight a lot less frustrating to drag people through. It is a fight where people can make a lot of small mistakes and those mistakes will quickly add up to a wipe, though that wipe will come slowly and waste a lot of your time.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Easy, the other 2 MSQ roulette dungeons take more time. People will stay for a fight likely to take less time.
If anything, the only problem with this solution is that people might ditch CM and praetorium more in favor of getting Steps of Faith.

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Counter: No one wants to do SOF now because the majority of the players prefer to face roll it and then wonder why it doesn't work, followed up by everyone quitting. SOF has a time limit of 60 minutes because it's expected of the party to clear it within that timeframe. The other 2 story quest dungeons you speak of have a much higher time limit because they're actual dungeons rather than a straight up boss fight, ergo they take longer to complete and most likely take a little bit longer to finish than a typical SOF run.

Also, those dungeons can be facerolled. SOF cannot, therefore people who don't learn causes everyone else to quit in frustration. SOF has a lot more mechanics than those two dungeons and is more demanding.