So I was kicked from Halatali today

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Just a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig snip

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Ok, let's see:

1) If you're only partying with DF, that's your own problem, sorry. Party Finder exists, it's part of the game and since you enjoy the "But the game was designed to be this way, you shouldn't play it any other way!" argument, well, the game was designed for people to use Party Finder and Free Companies. I see DF as a training party or for dungeons, never for extreme primals and especially not for coil. You complain about the parties you find but the reasoning doesn't stand because if the tank is being too careful, maybe there's a reason to it, whether it's gear or lack of experience or he just doesn't want to, or like Cynfael said, the run would be more efficient if the healer dealt damage in small pulls than having to keep healing the tank on big pulls with a party without big AoE (And holy is one of the strongest AoEs in the game, in dungeons you can literally use it until the mobs are dead.

2) If you wanna talk about tandem healing, why not go a step further: 2 WHMs, both pop Regen on tank; one of them goes into Presence of Mind and deals damage until it runs out while the 1st is keeping the tank healed (Which he shouldn't have a problem with since tank has 2 regens on, but if he does, 2nd whm can just pop back on, no problem); then the 2nd whm turns off Cleric Stance, starts healing the tank and the 1st goes ahead and does the same. Do you know how much damage is dealt in those 30 seconds? I don't, but it's a lot! So there, any efficient play by 2 healers who communicate with themselves. Which is something you'll never find in DF, only in organized groups.

3) I make a point to ALWAYS save a little time for DPS in every run I make. If I'm new to the run, I'll tone it down, of course, do you know how good it feels to have the tank pull full rooms in Wanderer's Palace HM, you keeping him topped and then do this marvelous combination: Cleric Stance, Swiftcast, Holy. BOOM, 4 seconds of zero damage to the tank. Ok, you don't have to switch on Cleric Stance for the stun, but why wouldn't you? It's a 200 potency AoE! Then you can even go further and cast Holy until the tank is on low HP, by this time some of the mobs should already be dead, which means less damage incoming, which means less healing required, so you have enough time to heal, if you don't, just use good ol' Benediction. The same can be applied to Scholar for Shadow Flare, although not as much damage AoE-wise, the attack slow will help even without Cleric Stance and instead of Benediction you have Lustrate.

4) Amdapor's Keep has a DPS Check, you really think a party can get through it if the healer doesn't help dealing damage with bare minimum ilvl? haha. This is just an example, but it's probably the most unforgiving one, We can also mention Titan Ex, Leviathan Ex, Shiva Ex, hell, even Ifrit HM has a tough DPS check if people aren't geared. So if we're talking about Square being a square (lol) and making dungeons/raids with strict roles and ilvl in mind, your argument doesn't stand because healers will need to help deal damage on DPS checks.

5) And finally, "The way the game was designed". Have you seen the Conjurer questline? I think someone even posted here on how that girl said she didn't wanna heal, just deal damage, and that she was harming herself and others around her. *wink wink* *nudge nudge* much? I mean, how much more obvious can Square get with that whole questline? They WANT you to deal damage instead of standing around like a dummy (a combat dummy, not trying to insult you!)

I've done daily low, main scenario, high, and extreme roulettes constantly for the past few months. My "DPS when able = <3" stance is from the majority of that being solo queued, with the exception of 75-80% of the high/ex being with a dps friend.

Yes, some DF parties are a wreck. I've had a 90 minute CC run that ultimately failed, with me adding dps because people couldn't dodge mechanics/it made more sense to kill the boss than to slowcast another res. I've also had FC roulette runs with people on non-familiar roles that were way more painful than DF runs. I still DPS - make sure to get stoneskin/adlo on the tank at the end of the previous pull, then run directly behind the tank and cleric as they near the end of pull, swiftcast+shadowflare when they stop, miasma 2 if I have time, eye4eye+drop cleric+lustrate if I don't think they'll survive to the end of my adlo cast. Small pulls? Totally have time to get 3 dots+bane before swapping to heal.

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Originally Posted by Skyhunter

This being said, as KisaiTenshi has already stated that she almost always runs DF... Cynfael, do you mostly run DF or with clan members? I don't ask this in an arrogant tone either, I simply am curious for comparison's sake. I'll say that everything Cynfael says almost always applies when I am running with my group that I know.

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In my case it's DF for most random things like roulettes,weekly Tower quest, or dungeons my secondary relic for BLM. Even when I do go with FC people, it's usually only a couple of us together, and not always as healer+tank. For FCOB I always run with a static group. The only SCOB fight I do semi-often is T9, and I sometimes jump into friends' groups to help them clear a new member.

4-man DF as SCH: The group has to be pretty bad for me not to make time to DPS. I'm usually top in AoE damage on small-to-medium sized pulls unless there is a half-decent BLM. If the pulls are extremely large or the tank extremely weak, there might not be time to do a full round of DoTs + Bane before the tank's Adlo/SS is cut down and they start taking huge chunks. As mobs start to drop, I give the tank a fresh Adlo, continue to manually force Embraces on him/her, and use the remaining mob with the highest current HP as my disease vector for an upcoming Bane. Swiftcast Shadowflare is standard for any pull, and again when it becomes available.

8-man DF as SCH: Outside of FCOB, the majority of 8-man content is not that intensive for tank healing. I've done purely DF ST runs, for example, where both the WHM and I are camping CS 90% of the time, dropping it for a split second only to pre-shield, to heal up from a room-wide AoE, or to spot heal people who derp. Same goes for WoD unless your tank is the MT at a fight like CoD where the boss can actually inflict constant, heavy damage.

4-man DF as WHM: There's almost always time for a few Holy bombs. If the pulls are very large or people appearing to take a lot of damage, I'll prep the tank, go CS, Swiftcast Holy, cast 2 more of them, and immediately swap back out of CS and proceed to heal until more of the herd dies. If no one is in imminent danger, I'll Holy spam, Shroud, Benediction the tank when it gets low, and Holy some more for good measure.

8-man DF as WHM: I'll automatically assume primary healing responsibility if my partner is a SCH since their GCD management is much more flexible, but I'll Holy groups of trash if they are pulled together and tanked properly. Against bosses I'll DPS while no significant AoEs are going out after applying any necessary Regens. Since fights are scripted, you can generally tell when it's safe to take a handful of seconds to refresh Aero II and Aero at the very minimum, and I'll often scoot closer to the boss so that I can work Fluid Aura into my DPS rotation.

Coil (as SCH): I push heavy DPS as SCH during phases with particularly specific and scripted healing requirements. Aside from letting my WHM partner handle things like early Preys in T10 and MT healing while a Bennu is up in T12, I drop Cleric Stance for a moment to pre-shield for tank busters and for large room-wide AoE, and I constantly spam fairy heals on whichever tank is under fire at the time. The WHM will assume Cleric Stance and assist DPS in transitions where raid damage is minimal or non-existent, like when Imdugud charges up after each add phase in T10, assuming that no accidents happened earlier that consumed a lot more MP than usual.

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Originally Posted by Lyzern

1) If you're only partying with DF, that's your own problem,

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If you notice, I'm on Excalibur , the one with the Something Awful and Reddit, and the 4chan people, and it's a Legacy server with almost no "new" people that aren't bots. I picked the server way back in V1 for different reasons before becoming aware of this. This is what you see everyday today:
http://i60.tinypic.com/2mpeulh.png
The only parties people make are to farm things.

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Originally Posted by Lyzern

2) If you wanna talk about tandem healing...

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You know what the most common thing people do in "Castrum Meridianum" ? Let one healer do all the healing and the other healer spams Holy. Given when most of the party is ilevel 100 gear, the tank is usually going to last more than 5 seconds today. When people PF/DF farmed it around launch, people who weren't doing their job got kicked.

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Originally Posted by Lyzern

3) I make a point to ALWAYS save a little time for DPS in every run I make.

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You have a strategy that works for you then. I'm telling you that you're more likely to get a Tank to over-pull and not give you a chance to do that, than to pull enemies one at a time.

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Originally Posted by Lyzern

4) Amdapor's Keep has a DPS Check, you really think a party can get through it if the healer doesn't help dealing damage...

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I got through it back when people were being kicked for not having full darklight gear in 2013. If the party is weak then do whatever you must, but I haven't needed to DPS in that dungeon even with the less-than-stellar parties. I had one recent run where the wipes kept happening at the final boss and the Tank went "I've never seen those Orbs before" , while a more recent run the boss was killed just as the Orbs spawned. I did nothing different in both of those parties, and honestly it seemed like the party that kept wiping wasn't paying attention to the adds.

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Originally Posted by Lyzern

5) And finally, "The way the game was designed". Have you seen the Conjurer questline?

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Have you paid attention to it? E-Sumi-Yan said that Sylphie was using her own lifeforce instead of drawing from nature to heal people, and her mother died from doing that. The point of that storyline was to show you when to use those skills you had acquired up to that point. That's the entire point of all the class storylines. None of these are done in a party. And as I've stated repeatedly, the DPS skills the healer classes have were designed so that a healer can get through the storyline without having to roll a DPS class like in other games. Prior to getting Holy, everything in the storyline is a chore, which is why I did the main storyline with my Bard, but I picked up the Conjurer/WHM only after my frustration with waiting an hour between DF runs back when the game launched. It was much easier to level up my Conjurer/WHM through the DF because the waits were less than 2 minutes, and runs generally went better than when I played a DPS class and the healers were trying to join-in with their DPS.

The low-level DF rarely has speed-pull tanks. I don't need to, but the option is "get overwhelmed by adds (tank not holding aggro)" or "overheal (thus attracting aggro)", the most ham-fisted runs the tanks and DPS ignore the adds and just attack the boss.

A lot of my POV on this subject comes from how the Healer generates hate faster than the tank when healing. I don't throw out healing spells to proactively heal the tank, nor use the party healing spells when it's not necessary. It wastes the Tanks time in having to generate hate faster or run around to get hate again. Go look at threads from people who Tank, their complaints? "Needless healbombs." If it wasn't for the wanton overuse of AOE DPS, the Healer would be sleeping the adds. That is how the game's dungeons are designed. Overgearing should only make the battles faster, not ignoring the game mechanics for the sake of pressing X to win.

Anyway I think this thread has said just about everything that was needed to be said. DF PUG's != FC Members. DPS only when you feel there is a need for it, but you are never required to DPS if you DF queued as healer.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

you are never required to DPS if you DF queued as healer.

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Strictly speaking, this is true.

However, for players who want to play well, ignoring opportunities to help push party DPS is unacceptable. Not sure how to say it more simply than this. It's one thing if you literally can't do it because your party demands your 100% healing attention, but quite another if you fail to perform because of some entitled notion that the "healer" label means that the party's #1 priority (i.e. killing things to complete objectives) is not in your Job description.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

*snip*
Anyway I think this thread has said just about everything that was needed to be said. DF PUG's != FC Members. DPS only when you feel there is a need for it, but you are never required to DPS if you DF queued as healer.

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I dps a lot in castrum.. Fairy + rare lustrates is enough for bosses (I manually rotate skills), and there's definitely plenty of time at the start of large pulls. I'm not annoyed when the other healer dpses, or when they only heal. Overgearing makes healing needs weak.

I'm pretty sure the poster meant AK hard, which has two tight dps checks. If you wipe in the demon walls, you can go back to where you left off. The final boss though is a bit more unforgiving.

FC members being the gold standard aside, I do actually agree with the bolded point. I just think there's a lot more time to safely dps than you realize.

If my cure spam keeps them above 90%, or i can heal all their HP in a few Cure II's, then i see no reason to spam cure the whole dungeon. I've got Cleric Stance and a 200 potency spammable nuke. Not to mention the 4-second base stun that drastically reduces the amount of incoming damage the tank will be taking anyway.

Make sure the healing is stable, judge whether or not you can cleric, Divine Seal their tick heals and spam away!

Doesn't matter if they survive with 10,000 HP, 1000 or 100. As long as they don't die and the enemies do, you're doing your job.

I think the biggest thing I can glean from this topic is that a lot of different people like a lot of different things. I think the best thing I (or any other healer can do) is to simply go situation to situation and take up the slack wherever it may be, since this is ultimately the job of the healer. I know what I liked and disliked from healers as I played through the first story on my DPS, and I know what has and has not gotten me hat-tricks of commendations at the end of dungeons before. If you want me to DPS in a dungeon, ask me to do so, but if no damage is being dealt I'll do so anyways. If you want me to keep you topped up because it boosts your confidence, then I'll do so, but if you look like you're taking it in the tail every time an add hits you, I'm going to do so anyways.

All I can say is there are so many different varieties of people that to try and lay one specific style of healing (let's say healing and DPS'ing at the same time) down as the "best" is no more or less silly than saying always healing is the best. I assume none of you are blatant liars, and I assume none of you are narrow-mided enough to only attempt a single style of gameplay, and yet multiple stories and reasons arise. Different people make different judgement calls. I have one acquaintance that claims he can't boss in end-game content because, according to him, the stress gives him panic attacks and makes him sick. Is it true? Maybe. Is it silly and self inflicted? Possibly, who knows. The bottom line is that due to the pure size of the game and how many players there seem to be, I think opinions are going to be all over the charts. In the end, if you finish the content successfully, I don't think it matters greatly how you got there. If you have a hissy fit because you took 5 minutes longer than you could have, then I can't help you. If we are 5 minutes from the dungeon expiring, then I will have the hissy fit and wonder why you are even trying to play this game.

Either way, there seem to be lots of good opinions, a few bad tempers, and a whole slew of different kinds of people.

So just replying to OP even though I'm sure you've had a great number of inputs now.

Everyone has a different idea of what the ideal play style is. What matters is how you want to play it, but also taking into consideration of others.

The way I see it is, if you are able to keep your PT alive without dying then there shouldn't be an issue. However in some end-game instances, people would like if healers stance-danced because it helps. Not saying that you need to follow that but some would prefer it. Again, you really don't have to.

If someone does give you a "hissy fit" just reply that [I don't speak English] or if you have talked, say, "Today I just want to relax sorry if you can't understand that."

If they kick you.
Don't take it personally.

They are probably:
- Back seat drivers.
- In a hurry
- Have their own play style
- Don't understand this is an MMO.
- Don't have any friends, thus solo queing.
- Letting off some steam.

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In the end, it's not you it's them.

I thought of this thread today when I did Cutter's Cry for my BLM Animus book and wound up in DF with an at-level tank and a level-synced SCH.

Things were pretty good for the first couple of rooms, but I noticed that the SCH had left CS on at some point but was healing rather than DPSing. I said nothing because no one was dying and I figured he would notice his mistake soon. I finally said something when the tank did a large pull and was dipping dangerously low while the SCH began to run low on MP, at which point the SCH decided to make a game of healing through CS.

I made an offhand comment about efficiency, and the SCH said "It's Cutter's Cry - I can afford to be inefficient?" to which I replied "Ain't nobody got time for dat in this dungeon." Thankfully he started playing normally and we finished very smoothly, but it was a good example of how one person's playstyle choices can negatively affect the experience of others. In the bigger picture this is why I think it's important to play well. Not everyone is going to have the same level of skill with each and every Job or role, but deliberately choosing to do less than what you're capable of is what gets me. If people want a gameplay experience centered completely on their preferences, there are plenty of excellent single-player games for the choosing.

Holy crap, this thread am I right?
Anyway, back to the pioint before you all whipped it out and started whizzing everywhere, OP queued for Halatali NM as a healer. Stone II has a potency of 170, aero a potency 0f 50/dot 40 I think.

x=(WD*.2714745 + INT*.1006032 + (DTR-202)*.0241327 + WD*INT*.0036167 + WD*(DTR-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (potency/100) take into fact time to swap CS/heal every 4-5GCD, swap back. AVG mob pack of 3(x)

This guy got kicked bc he didn't do 66dps. That's messed up no matter how you look at it. Get your heads checked elitists. I've 3 man Halatali no prob, and that's all his party prob did afterwards, sad times really. poor guy.

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Originally Posted by Skyhunter

If you ask me if I'm mad, the answer is yes. I don't think I should be kicked for healing as a heale.

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Eh, depends on the situation. If you were just standing there doing nothing waiting for the tank's health to get low I wouldn't have had a problem voting yes on the kick. I wouldn't have initiated the kick or have complained though. I've been in parties with healers who would run around jumping waiting to heal someone. Just seems like laziness to me. And this is coming from someone who mains scholar. There's no reason for you not to be active at all times while playing a healer class. If you're actively having to heal that's one thing, but just standing there? Kick.

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Originally Posted by Kidblinks

Eh, depends on the situation. ... If you're actively having to heal that's one thing, but just standing there? Kick.

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The elitist jerk strikes again. Perpetuating the problem. Be the self import, jerk and kick, instead of being the better person and improving the situation.

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Originally Posted by ChameleonMS

The elitist jerk strikes again. Perpetuating the problem. Be the self import, jerk and kick, instead of being the better person and improving the situation.

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Because name-calling coupled with accusations of elitism is the action of a better person who is attempting to improve this situation.

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Originally Posted by ChameleonMS

The elitist jerk

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*Shrugs* No lies detected. But seriously, it's just laziness to stand there doing nothing. Casting cure every five seconds while everyone else is constantly taking action is just silly. Am I wrong to want to be in a group with others who put the same amount of effort in that I do? /kick

Hehe, no worries Kid, I'd be just as willing to vote-kick somebody taking the time to fit over efficiency in a sub-50 dungeon (assuming everybody was at least filling their role). In sub-50 dungeons, it's not even worth the time taken to type out a complaint as long as all roles are at least being fulfilled.

@Cynfael: I think your example is an excellent point in how situations vary per person. The healer in your group was definitely kick-worthy as he was not even fulfilling his most basic role. In my scenario, however, players wanted MORE than the basic role. SO while it might have been nice for me to DPS, I was not causing wipes by not doing so (as he would have been doing had new players been present). That being said, in my own case, the noob in the group is always going to be either the tank or the DPS, which only further justifies my focusing on healing rather than DPS'ing. A healer that won't heal properly means a kick. A tank that won't keep the adds off his team means either a kick or my excessive healing, which as you experienced in the case of your bad healer, can indeed be an issue in regards to bad tanks and DPS.

Either way, a player that is doing their job and who is not the cause of a wipe shouldn't take crap from people. There are very clear places where DPS from a healer is a required job (adds in the Firemane fight, Odin burn phase at the end), but mid-way between bosses in Halatali is not one of them. DPS in those areas is just icing on your cake, and anybody worth their salt doesn't NEED the icing, although it's nice when people provide it.

Hey guys, I started levelling my Archer again (wow, those poor DDs and their queues, I feel really sorry you guys have to go through this) and something funny happened yesterday! I got coupled with 2 healers who did absolutely nothing but cast Cure. One entire spell rotation, so I politely said and even added a smile "Hey X, could you help deal some damage? The run will be faster and you won't just be sitting there bored :)" And they did it!

They actually started helping with the damage and the run felt much smoother after they did. So guys, let's just ask politely instead of being asshole's like the guy that OP got matched with.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Because name-calling coupled with accusations of elitism is the action of a better person who is attempting to improve this situation.

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Calling it like it is. As I have previously stated in this thread. Do something to improve the situation. Encourage and educate the less skilled / lazy player. Just kicking him serves no value. The kicked player does not learn. The kicking player continues to be part of the problem.

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Originally Posted by Lyzern

One entire spell rotation, so I politely said and even added a smile "Hey X, could you help deal some damage? The run will be faster and you won't just be sitting there bored :)" And they did it!
They actually started helping with the damage and the run felt much smoother after they did. So guys, let's just ask politely instead of being asshole's like the guy that OP got matched with.

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This is exactly what I am talking about.

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Originally Posted by Lyzern

Hey guys, I started levelling my Archer again (wow, those poor DDs and their queues, I feel really sorry you guys have to go through this) and something funny happened yesterday! I got coupled with 2 healers who did absolutely nothing but cast Cure. One entire spell rotation, so I politely said and even added a smile "Hey X, could you help deal some damage? The run will be faster and you won't just be sitting there bored :)" And they did it!

They actually started helping with the damage and the run felt much smoother after they did. So guys, let's just ask politely instead of being asshole's like the guy that OP got matched with.

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Exactly. Why can't everybody respond like this?

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Originally Posted by Skyhunter

@Cynfael: I think your example is an excellent point in how situations vary per person. The healer in your group was definitely kick-worthy as he was not even fulfilling his most basic role. In my scenario, however, players wanted MORE than the basic role. SO while it might have been nice for me to DPS, I was not causing wipes by not doing so (as he would have been doing had new players been present). That being said, in my own case, the noob in the group is always going to be either the tank or the DPS, which only further justifies my focusing on healing rather than DPS'ing. A healer that won't heal properly means a kick. A tank that won't keep the adds off his team means either a kick or my excessive healing, which as you experienced in the case of your bad healer, can indeed be an issue in regards to bad tanks and DPS.

Either way, a player that is doing their job and who is not the cause of a wipe shouldn't take crap from people. There are very clear places where DPS from a healer is a required job (adds in the Firemane fight, Odin burn phase at the end), but mid-way between bosses in Halatali is not one of them. DPS in those areas is just icing on your cake, and anybody worth their salt doesn't NEED the icing, although it's nice when people provide it.

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I still think that it was out of line to kick you given what you shared about your situation. The majority of my comments about healers contributing to party DPS are aimed squarely at players who choose to be obstructive out of sheer laziness or because they believe that their role entitles them to doing less "work".

The main point where I think we differ is that I believe that healer DPS is compulsory rather than icing, at least where the player is capable and not otherwise unable to provide it due to strict healing requirements. Providing DPS to a party is part of your basic role even if it does admittedly take a backseat to your primary responsibility of healing.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

I still think that it was out of line to kick you given what you shared about your situation. The majority of my comments about healers contributing to party DPS are aimed squarely at players who choose to be obstructive out of sheer laziness or because they believe that their role entitles them to doing less "work".

The main point where I think we differ is that I believe that healer DPS is compulsory rather than icing, at least where the player is capable and not otherwise unable to provide it due to strict healing requirements. Providing DPS to a party is part of your basic role even if it does admittedly take a backseat to your primary responsibility of healing.

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It's by no means compulsory otherwise the dungeons would be designed harder and grindier. I keep telling you guys this, that's why FFXIV is the way it is and not a RNG-Damage-Spam zerg-fest. There are people in this thread who think just because a healer isn't healing, they should be damage spamming. It's not the healers role to take up the slack of the DPS.

In the low-level dungeons it feels agonizingly slow to do when the tank is ill-equipped and basically loses half it's HP on every hit. That is reality. If you luck out and get an overgeared tank, they may actually last the 5 seconds required to switch in and out of Cleric stance. Otherwise it's entirely pointless for the healer to DPS because the time spent waiting results in weak heals and slow damage. In Halitali, you know the tank will last longer without heals if you get rid of the adds, which you can do faster than the melee DPS.

It's all situational, but a healer is under no obligation to "help DPS" otherwise the dungeon design would enable it. The only places in any dungeon where the Healer could "help" DPS are when the Boss is invulnerable, and the adds do not attack the players even when they have hate. A healer doesn't need to make up for weak DPS on trash mobs. Figure out if the Tank will last 10 seconds without a heal and then decide if it's worth risking the tank die just to fire off two DPS skills in that 5 seconds. If you know the battle, then you know the answer. Most low-level DF queues you can expect one player to be a write-off, just hope it's not the tank.

That the dungeon is not designed around healer damage doesn't take away from its value. Since it isn't required, it's icing on the cake, i.e. you are now going through the dungeon quicker than intended. It's not about picking up slack, it's about adding to the pot. This is a good thing.

It's one thing for a player to be lacking in experience, unable to identify good times to contribute more to the run. This hugbox mentality that is promoting poor play and not pushing them to learn and do better is what is truly disturbing. If they did not want healers to have some form of damage output, Cleric Stance would not exist.

I don't know how any healer could put up with only healing anyway. I would have bored myself to death leveling WHM and SCH if I had not stance danced my way to 50 and beyond.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

snip.

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- Dungeon design enables healers to DPS just fine, as do healer mechanics.

- Why would you ever suffer weak heals? The whole point of stance-dancing is to DPS while you do not need to heal, while you can maintain heals indirectly (e.g. ongoing HoTs or fairy Embrace), or when you're prepared to use Lustrate or Benediction.

- The only time you really risk a tank's life by disabling your heals is when you do not properly learn the fight. Even in dungeons it's the same mobs with the same AI every time; no trash mob is going to bust out a personal LB as soon as it sees you go CS. It's ridiculous to suggest that "keep tank safe" and "add DPS" are mutually exclusive actions.

- It's never about picking up slack for weak DPS; it's about playing well and helping your fellow players achieve objectives. If standing around waiting for people to need healing before you lift a finger is fun for you, then I can't help. Sadly we don't complete duties by blowing mobs up with heals, but with DPS; what makes healers so special that they should be the only role in the game not to contribute as they are able?

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

Holy crap, this thread am I right?
Anyway, back to the pioint before you all whipped it out and started whizzing everywhere, OP queued for Halatali NM as a healer. Stone II has a potency of 170, aero a potency 0f 50/dot 40 I think.

x=(WD*.2714745 + INT*.1006032 + (DTR-202)*.0241327 + WD*INT*.0036167 + WD*(DTR-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (potency/100) take into fact time to swap CS/heal every 4-5GCD, swap back. AVG mob pack of 3(x)

This guy got kicked bc he didn't do 66dps. That's messed up no matter how you look at it. Get your heads checked elitists. I've 3 man Halatali no prob, and that's all his party prob did afterwards, sad times really. poor guy.

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Still stand by this^^

I have Blizzard2 as my earliest available cross skill so that I can pretend I'm holying in the low dungeons. :C

OP you should have /report them that was your mistake. Healers are not DPS, don't listen to some of these people. DPS is not a healer's job, your job is to keep players alive and revive them.

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Originally Posted by Seaverin

OP you should have /report them that was your mistake. Healers are not DPS, don't listen to some of these people. DPS is not a healer's job, your job is to keep players alive and revive them.

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Yet another underperformer joins the discussion. It's ok to not be as useful as others, just know that a healer that helps deal damage is 200% more useful than one who doesn't, as was proven by 15 pages of discussion.

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

Calculations and stuff

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I've no idea how much 66 DPS means compared to the other DDs in the group, as I don't use parses or DPS addons, and since we don't know the exact HP of the monsters, we also can't really assume much with this info. Either way, for the sake of argument: If the Halatil run lasted 20 mins (Probably longer, as those dungeons are painfully slow), 66 DPS would be the same as 79,600 damage. So no, he didn't get kicked for not doing 66 dps, he got kicked for not doing 79,600 damage.

We've all stated opinions and obviously if a healer isn't comfortable dealing damage, he shouldn't, but check your math before you call others elitists. 79,600 damage is a lot of damage.

Your inexperience shows if you refuse to do any sort of DPSing, especially if the tank is highly geared and not taking much damage. It really slows down the run a lot if you stand there doing nothing. It's also terrible if you're overhealing (tank has lost 200 HP, you heal him for 400).

I don't think you should be kicked for it, but at the same time, nobody will want to play with you if you're "that guy".

Seriously I main DPS and I'm trying White Mage myself. It's really not that hard to drop a couple of Aeros and Stones every once in a while.
Nobody is demanding you to go into Cleric Stance, although toggling it on and off is actually the "pro" thing to do.

Try putting Aero one time on every mob that gets targetted. Without using Cleric Stance. See how drastically better that one simple step improves your runs by.

I hate to be the one to say it but we have reached a point in the game where healers are expected to deal some damage, even though it is not their main task. If you are not comfortable doing so then perhaps this role is not for you, and you would be better served sticking to your DPS classes. Nobody says healing is easy mode in this game. It isn't.

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Originally Posted by Seaverin

OP you should have /report them that was your mistake. Healers are not DPS, don't listen to some of these people. DPS is not a healer's job, your job is to keep players alive and revive them.

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This position is strangely common on the forums, and I'm still waiting for (but not expecting) a reasonable answer to the logical, oft-repeated follow-up question:

While you are not needing to heal or revive anyone, what exactly are you doing?

Hint: the following answers are invalid...

- Hoarding my MP as if it were gold.

- Keeping my GCD free so that I cannot somehow be surprised by the next highly-predictable damage spike.

- Checking my Facebook or other social media.

- Dozing while on auto-follow.

Technically you could report them. You aren't supposed to kick people just because you think they suck.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

This position is strangely common on the forums, and I'm still waiting for (but not expecting) a reasonable answer to the logical, oft-repeated follow-up question:

While you are not needing to heal or revive anyone, what exactly are you doing?

Hint: the following answers are invalid...

- Hoarding my MP as if it were gold.

- Keeping my GCD free so that I cannot somehow be surprised by the next highly-predictable damage spike.

- Checking my Facebook or other social media.

- Dozing while on auto-follow.

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- Jumping around like a fool, almost purposedly mocking the hard-working DDs and Tanks. (I've actually seen healers do this, it's pathetic...)

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

This position is strangely common on the forums, and I'm still waiting for (but not expecting) a reasonable answer to the logical, oft-repeated follow-up question:

While you are not needing to heal or revive anyone, what exactly are you doing?

Hint: the following answers are invalid...

- Hoarding my MP as if it were gold.

- Keeping my GCD free so that I cannot somehow be surprised by the next highly-predictable damage spike.

- Checking my Facebook or other social media.

- Dozing while on auto-follow.

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Spamming terrible macros in to the chat.
The answer you seek, that would be applicable to the game, does exist. Studying the game play technique of the other classes. Not that very many people would actually be doing this.

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Originally Posted by KittytheSheGeek

Technically you could report them. You aren't supposed to kick people just because you think they suck.

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Actually, you're wrong. From a GM's mouth that I found someone post in another thread:

http://oi57.tinypic.com/2zrm43m.jpg

This would be considered a argument over how their playstyles differ. They want the healer to dps, he doesn't want to.

Also:

http://s7.directupload.net/images/140813/h299ln6g.jpg

Note: Neither of these GM reports were made by me, just found these pictures in other threads and google.

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Originally Posted by Lyzern

- Jumping around like a fool, almost purposedly mocking the hard-working DDs and Tanks. (I've actually seen healers do this, it's pathetic...)

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I have never ever seen anything that would constitute as a hard working DPS. I have seen DPS do their job nicely, but there is a reason that DPS is so widely chosen by so many players as their main class. If any of the classes is easy mode, it most definitely is DPS. That being said I have never just jumped around pointlessly. I HAVE failed to keep someone alive though due to being on CS while they took an AoE to the face and went from full health to under 100HP in one attack (It would floor you the number of players who think they can eat a 12-inch Cointounter Club sandwhich because they assume I, as the healer, totally have their back). :P

I do however kinda like that Noah's post also means I can try and vote-kick someone who gets arrogant if I don't do what they have somehow decided is enough. That being said I wouldn't do that simply because it's rude. If anything can be gathered from this thread it's that we all play differently, and throwing a hissy fit because the tank is making it too hard or because someone doesn't want to play the game as he would the Superbowl just seems like a time waste. There is really no point whatsoever to getting bent over these sorts of things.

At any point, in seeing that really it comes down to what the players want to do (myself included), I'd honestly just rather be kicked then deal with trying to live up to someone's odd standards. This isn't me saying I won't DPS, mind, but the fact remains that I can get kicked, re-que and finish another dungeon in the time it will take them to get a new healer. There's no need to turn a game that I play for fun and relaxation half of the time and for sport and intensity the other half, into a full-time job where everything feels like work. If I'm going to do that, I'd go back to my ACTUAL workspace and get paid.

To answer Cynfael directly, though, sometimes I AM regenerating my mana (I don't hoard mana I already have though). Other than that, I'm probably waiting for an impending situation where I think someone is about to screw up... and more often than not, I have been right to do so. :P

If they screw up so terribly that they can't live for the 0.5-5 seconds it takes you to toggle off CS, then nothing short of you babysitting them 100% was going to save them (if it was even possible) and they should stay on the ground if it happens more than once.

In the case of attacks like those from the Coincounter, they are meant to severely punish players who can't read easy cues.

Healing stupid is not your responsibility. Any party members who are THIS bad without a good reason (e.g. are learning the fight) are a waste of your resources.

I wanted to add a second post (not sure I had stated this already) to state that the main reason I started healing was because I was sick of partying with healers who wanted to be heroes and who wouldn't keep their team safe. Ironically it annoyed me that they bothered to DPS because they made so little difference in the pre-50 dungeons, and it ticked me off post-50 (aside from the use of Holy) because they didn't keep up with the damage the tank was accumulating. Not only that, but clearly there are people who like full-time healers as evidenced by commendations.

I will make it blunt what I am NOT going to do though. I am NOT going to DPS random adds as opposed to keeping the tank alive (a safe tank changes this) just to make DPS jobs even easier than they already are. I have never seen a BLM or a SMN use a heal spell to help when there is a sudden loss of control from the adds, so it seems a little childish to cause an uproar when the healer hasn't done enough damage.

As I have said countless times though, it's clear we all play differently and it's clear we can kick players for not playing how we want them to. I think if you want a specific play style though, you need to use the PF and stop assuming everybody that comes into the DF is going to have the same mentality behind their controller as you do. Every dungeon I have run so far can be breezed through with one eye closed and one hand behind my back as both a healer and a DPS even if all we do is our own very basic job (I haven't played as a tank yet), and to get bent because it isn't going even EASIER, and even more so for the DPS to be the ones getting bent? No, quite frankly, I don't got time for that.

I can't speak for everybody else here, but I know I would never kick someone for being gay or for being a girl or for not speaking english, I certainly wouldn't kick someone for not stepping outside of their role.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Healing stupid is not your responsibility. Any party members who are THIS bad without a good reason (e.g. are learning the fight) are a waste of your resources.

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Sometimes it's not so cut and dry though. I mean I have been the last player standing before because nobody would pay attention to 100-tonze swing or had my BLM eat Glower like it was candy. Sometimes I can't just let them take a dirt nap for being bad... I do need SOME people on the team at least, and in fights like that, letting them sleep around is not only going to prevent them from getting a chance to practice, but that really does slow down the progress.

Not to mention at the end of the fight, it won't be the DPS getting kicked for being bad, it'll be the healer for not raising them.

There's already a lot of back and forth in this topic, and I think we've all repeated ourselves quite a bit by now.

I'll just say that I think that you need different experiences, whether you finally get half-decent people in DF or you meet good players to practice with. The game you seem to end up playing with these godawful players bears no resemblance to that which you play with parties with good teamwork or at least a basic understanding of mechanics.

That I can agree on haha.