Dragoon: top dps and easiest melee class by far ?

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Originally Posted by LionKing

All that are press one Attack+ Spamming 1 button. Of course, the rotation is not ideal but it is doable. And I can literally play with 2 FINGERS and STAND STILL.

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If you want you can stand still with monk too, duh. Guess what though. It's not ideal either. Just like that macro. As someone already said, each class is easy. Playing each class at its fullest is not easy. If you can't or don't want to acknowledge this, then there's no point in posting anymore.

Dragon never has low base damage potency to begin with. In a dummy fight, a good dragon still pull out respectable DPS, relatively close to Ninja and MNK DpS. The only sole reasons that hinder them to unleash their full potential in real fight were because of the strict position requirement to pull off a combo and too low Magic Def, hence higher risk of dying.

MNK is excel in a long term fight where sustainable DPS is preferable. Dragon on the other hand, is excel at burst and in the fight where burst damage is necessary, Dragon is your friend. However, with that said, even in a long fight, Dragon DPS was not that far off from MNK pre-patch.

Strictly speaking from my experience, I had been playing Dragoon for my static since our first clear in t6 up all the way to our T9 first completion. The sore reason why I changed to MNK after that was just because the first Weapon drop was that of MNK, so I switched. Later on, when I had both of MNK/Dragoon on the same Ilv gears, with both HA weapons, I did a little test by coming in T9 as MNK at first, then Dragoon later and had my friend recorded my number. My Dragoon was just 10 DPS less than my MNK, same group set up, same players playing the same class, under the same conditions, same player skills playing MNK/Drg. So, Either I sucked at MNK or were good at Dragoon.

Remove position requirements for buff and higher Mdef are good and welcomed by all of us as Drg do need them. However, higher up the attack potency, both physical and Dots while lower the CD on some skills, alongside with the other buffs, altogether made the buff for Dragoon over the top.

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Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

If you want you can stand still with monk too, duh. Guess what though. It's not ideal either. Just like that macro. As someone already said, each class is easy. Playing each class at its fullest is not easy. If you can't or don't want to acknowledge this, then there's no point in posting anymore.

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Have is my response to you:

Step 1: Having both your MNK and Dragoon on the same Ilv gear with the same Ilv Weapon.
Step 2: Having Macro "Internal Release + BfB" on MNK and have the macro I posted for Dragoon.
Step 3: Stand by a Training Dummy, flank or rear your choice.
Step 4: Hand off your movement keys and slowly close your eyes (Optional) - Key step is here
Step 5: Execute the combos as how you would in a real fight over the period of 5 mins.
Step 6: Come back here and tell me which number is higher.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Oy. I know it's more fun to read 1 sentence, ignore the rest of the post then respond to something completely unrelated, but contrary to people on this forum, it doesn't make a strong argument. If every melee pushes buttons in the right order, drg does 98% of optimal damage, mnk and ninja don't because they have additional mechanics, all after I say I LIKE the drg damage buff.

But obviously what I really meant was mnks can DK DK DK DK lulz. /sarcasm

Lern2reed.

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Maybe we are just not looking at this the same... Did the actual rotation change? No. So DRGs are doing the exact same rotation (with slight adjustments to buff timing) except not being penalized when a mechanic won't let you hit the rear or the flank for whatever reason. That was half of the damn DRG combo! The more powerful half!

Every class has to "push buttons in the right order", GL3 is not like an actual mechanic of MNK, it just happens from "pushing buttons in the right order". If it drops cuz you messed up that's your fault, but if it's a encounter related mechanic to force a break - it's not like you have to do anything but get it back up by "pushing the right buttons". Ninjitsu is an actual mechanic that depends on the player, so that's a fair point, NIN rotation is not 98% of their damage. Don't act like MNK is a difficult job to play though, by far the easiest IMO.

Someone complaining on an objective view? Ok. Here's mine. I feel that it is fair in assessment. You are free to agree or disagree.

Put bluntly, for the complexity that Monk had, it's punishment mechanics were far less than Dragoon's previously. You can take a hit in your DPS by not being in optimal positioning and still maintain your core combo mechanic, which is greased lightning.


Dragoon, before this patch, did not have that luxury. The execution of the core mechanic was far less forgiving, you missed your initiation, you took a substantial DPS hit, and often, to land those positional attacks, you had to pause. Where a Monk to could eat the slight DPS loss to continue his mechanic, Dragoon was forced to take much larger hits in DPS for similar circumstances.

We compound this with the added utility Monk provides in INT reduction and superior Mantra in addition to a situational Stun. Monk's superior DPS, mechanical forgiveness, and Utility was completely unbalanced in contrast.

There is a logical fallacy being presented that difficulty of mechanical execution should justify superior DPS. In a vacuum, this philosophy may be argued with merit. However it is trumped by the necessity of Class balance.

From the perspective of Class Balance the class that is 'easier' (a label that is misinformation, attempting to put a negative context to indicate a class's mechanics are more simple in concept) should have no bearing on whether or not the class is viable. In truth the mechanics of Monk or Dragoon are irrelevant compared to how they should measure up to one another in terms of group usefulness.

In the end, Dragoon's end output was punished too hard for errors that were often unavoidable, and similarly punished when hesitating to insure positioning was correct, especially when paired in competition to a class who's utility and end-dps was already superior.

Dragoon's top-end damage alone needed adjustment to make up for the lack of utility.

As it stands, I objectively agree with the adjustments made thus far. The punishment mechanic for Dragoon has been adjusted to be less than that of a Monk. And, in trade for the utilities Monk offers, Dragoon's assistance to a Bards DPS provides the potential for contributing more overall damage.

X 2 Monk parties still come with the same advantage in utility and likely higher DPS. The trade off is that it is more difficult to reach that idea DPS. Does not change that 2 monks will have higher up-time on INT down and more instances of the higher potency mantra than a Dragoon, as well as superior overall DPS to a x2 Dragoon x1 Bard set up, but I digress.

In the end these changes make Dragoon more comparable as far as contributions the party is concerned. The ease or difficulty of execution, when talking objective debates, is irrelevant. It is quite simply a straw-man argument when discussing class balance. Only when the execution is an contrasting impairment to the performance of the class, such in the case of Dragoon's previous combo requirements, should it be considered.

Is Monk's or Ninja's position in a party threatened? Only in the context that Dragoon is likely no longer considered an inferior in the average conversation. Once again, execution over class preference will likely pervade most conversations regarding classes - which is as it should be. Dragoons, previous to this, were sharply falling into a state of disregard. I applaud Square Enix for making the adjustments within one patch increment and making a substantial, yet well measured adjustment.

What I mean when I say push buttons in the right order is doing your jobs proper gcd rotation and using instant abilities. Every job has a set optimal rotation of gcd and instants. That's the base for not suck in at your job. A mnk then has to do positionals and a trick or 2 in specific cased to keep gl. Nin has to also maintain its ninjutsu system and position for ta. (Opinions vary on ninjutsu as an additional mechanic or a just a bazillion instant skills. I think the former and SE seems to agree). My point is that Drg can (now) stop at just the button pushing part and literally be at 98% efficiency while mnk/nin have an additional layer of gameplay to spice them up.

I think drgs damage is in the right ballpark now, I just disagree with the dramatic positional easing. Drg now has 5 positionals a min, 3 HT and 2 chaos, that work like nearly every one of mnks gcds they use every 2 sec. And there's frankly nothing else drg has to concern itself with. Drgs now have the same magic def, more hp, and can more freely use b4b without worry. What exactly does drg have to consider now beyond their rotation (which is the bare minimum to play any melee)? I just personally think they removed anything that made drg different and over simplified it. I'm not calling for a damage reversion or anything. I think they just killed that extra layer that every job has to manage beyond basic rotation and instants spam.

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Originally Posted by HulveinBlitz

DRG top DPS.

You need to talk to your MNK, if you're thinking that's the case.

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LOL No. DRGs can now ACTUALLY compete with MNK in DPS, DRG's don't consistently out-damage MNK... I'm happy DRG got their long deserved buffs, they needed it tbqh.

While I like my MNK, I'm no fanboy, So don't misunderstand me, but you're incorrectu.

EDIT: OH wait I see wuh you did there... you're actually right and said what I said.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

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Please don't take this the wrong way, but yours is a subjective viewpoint, not an objective argument. In which case, it has no more or less validity than any other opinion, agreeing or disagreeing.


As a counterpoint I would like to offer up the common denomer that most Dragoons cannot, in fact, manage their auxiliary functions, namely jumps, in a manner in which it is optimal. Either too eager to hit on cooldown or too cautious, often both DPS AND positioning is lost because a lot of Dragoon's DPS assistance is on off-cooldown, single hit skills that manipulate positioning and come with limited animation lock.

As a personal preference, I'd ask you not to use hyperbolic numbers in arguments. More than 2% is lost when ignoring the positioning of Chaos Thrust and Heavy Thrust, even if the hard combo initiative is gone. Additionally, positioning must still be considered throughout the fight when managing Jump Cooldowns. A jump that is too eager can result in lost dps due to fight mechanics, whether by being hit by a directional, or by wasting a cooldown that can adjust positioning for a dragoon and increase overall DPS by pausing a few moments.

What you are arguing is not the same as the OP. At the risk of seeming presumptuous, you are asking for more class depth, not more class difficulty. You are looking for the class to be more engaging, which is a matter of personal preference. I won't argue that matter as in no way can I tell you what you should like. And I personally withhold judgment on the class mechanic's level of engagement until I have had more time to play it post adjustments. I do know that, due to the frequency increase of two of my off-GDC skills, I am actually having to remap my Gamepad bindings to compensate. If you're interested, I'll let you know later whether or not I still find the class engaging.

But again, I don't feel that particular debate has any real baring when it comes to class balancing. I really was not expecting a quick adjustment to be highly in-depth. And I currently don't feel this is an over-simplification, at least on paper. We'll see if that perspective changes after more field experience.

What they should have done is add an effect to one of the tanks' abilities that, when applied, would allow the melee dps to hit their positionals from anywhere on that target. One or two minutes cooldown, to be used on pulls, when adds spawn or when the mechanics don't allow us to move freely (like on t11 when the first AoE is directed to you while you're tethered to someone). No "dumbing down" + extra synergy.

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Originally Posted by Casper

lalafell tears.

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You know the adjustments made to Dragoon where the closest thing they could come to balance the class to the other classes, listen to player feedback, and not change DRG gameplay too much, right?

Of course you don't know that. You don't main Dragoon, do you?

The DRG buffs make up for their lack of utility. It gives them more value in groups now.

Good DPS + Limited Group Utility = Dragoon / Black Mage
Good DPS + Group Utility = Monk / ninja / Bard

gg no re

Don't mind my offensive opening sentence but seems that, there's a lot of garbage going on and on about "OH MY GAWD DRG IS NOW SO EASY TO BE AVERAGE ON, JUST HIT FROM BEHIND THE WHOLE FIGHT NO DPS LOSS, MONK QQ". BTW, a ninja has been doing that. Considering the increased popularity of WAR (WAR bring about additional mitigation and dps for tanks, another topic another day) and WAR applying slashing debuff, NIN doesn't even have a flank skill to use in their rotation removing dancing edge.

Now my question to all of you is, do you want to be average?

If yes, I won't want to see you in my FCOB static. In fact I'll just be frank I don't even want to see you in my EX primal farm parties. You're a DPS, YOU ONLY GOT ONE JOB. DO THAT JOB WELL NOT AVERAGE U IDIOT.

So now can we move on and talk about whether DRG will overtake MNK?

MNK
When DPS takes a major hit:
Not keeping GL3
When you die
When DPS takes a mediocre or minor hit:
Not hitting positionals for every skill in your 1 2 3 rotation
Not keeping 2 DoT spells up

Based on parsings, majority of MNK's damage comes from autohits (33%), snap punch, Demolish, Boot shine, True Strike. Not keeping GL3 gives you the highest DPS loss in terms of % damage dealt.

Why is not hitting positionals not a major hit many will ask. That's because for each stance, there's a FLANK AND a REAR attack option. Yes your rotation may dictate that you need to do Dragonkick or Twin Snakes at that moment, but doing their alternatives does not result in a major DPS loss if the boss's mechanic locks you in the rear position. And recovery is within 5 seconds due to your high SS, just finish up the current 1 2 3 rotation and reapply your buffs/debuffs in the next rotation. A rotation is like a guideline, it's not a hard and fast rule "ZOMG I MUST DO THIS MOVE NOW OR IMMA GONNA BECOME LOLMNK". Sorry no, it'a all reaction play according to the situation.

Whether monks do so well in certain turns and fall off in others basically depends on whether the mechanics give the monk a target to attack for the whole fight.

And TP burn is the highest amongst all 3 classes, my MNK burns out 4 mins 25 seconds without goad or paeon on perfect invigorates.


DRG
When DPS takes a major hit:
Not hitting HT properly No longer
Not hitting ID properly
When you die
When DPS takes a mediocre or minor hit:
When you miss HT's Flank Bonus
When you miss CT's Back Bonus [NEW]

So they took away one of the nasty positional requirements away this patch. This matches MNK's sole major requirement to keep GL stacks up. Fair enough? Seems fair to me.

If anything, this patch actually made DRG less mobile than ever. We used to be stuck at the start of each rotation where we have to Flank, followed quickly by Rear or else we're majorly screwed. Now, it's not a must to get that Flank but it's important to get that Rear cause you need it to proc disembowel.

But guess what, to min max now, you have to Flank, followed quickly by Rear, one extra skill for you to dodge any rear aoes that may come out, followed by Rear again. Previously after we've hit the HT and ID, we're free to roam which ever side of the boss we want until the next HT. That is not even considering jumps, which means for DRG, you are more often jammed locked into stationary positions because of our rotation, which means if the boss does not line up properly for you, best of luck and take that DPS hit.

And where are people QQing about the DRG potency increase when MNK has a 5% + 27% + 5% damage buff whereas we're only still stuck at 15%.

if anything this patch made DRG more DRG like and away from the others. MNK has always been a fluid style fighter constantly moving around. DRG should always be the big hitters and to get that big stick in you need to stay still to build strength up for big hits in between the average hits.

as for NINs, meh, they will survive with the TP cost increase, but i sure hate to see the dmg nerf on kisses that i feel is unwarranted.

I think DRG is in a good position now considering they have no raid utility. You guys keep talking about who is more difficult who is easy. I main Monk as Dps. I say Gl is not easy to manage when your target suddenly go missing. Alot of Gl stack was applied at the every last mini sec. If not it's a 27% dmg and 15% ss lost. But DRG dont have it better too. To maximize your dmg you have to weave jumps and use power surge and life surge correctly. Ninja too, their mundra is not easy to manage but not as difficult. Anyone who play a ninja long enough shouldn't mess up their mundras. Same goes to Monk.
Monk and DRG excels at different raid. Eg T8, stand still fight. Monk will win DRG DPS. mean while in T9 where there are times GL will lose without anything you can do. Losing 37% dmg (including twin snakes) is not punishing? While drg can HT and get going and do their dmg.
No melee class is easy if anyone of you is trying to maximize you DPS. You cannot just look at what the skills say and determine the complexity of the class. Also don't assume the other class is easier than your own because you "think" your class is the most difficult and have the hardest time.
Weaving Jumps while looking out for dots, HT and raid mechanics is not easy. But it's easy once you get used to it
Keeping DoTs up and moving around while looking at GL stacks while looking out for raid mechanics is not easy. But if you know how to play a monk well, you shouldn't have a problem.
Don't say DRG is more punishing crap. You lose 15% dmg without HT now. We still lose 27% dmg without GL. And Monks dont say DRG is easy, try playing DRG in high level content, maxing it's dps.
To end this note, i cannot specify more on the fact that no class is easy if you truly want the best from that class. So don't play one and say the other is easy and shit. It's like a man saying giving birth is not as painful as being kicked in the balls. Try having a baby coming out of your dicks LOL

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Originally Posted by VeroNork

ID no longer has a positional requirement/boost fyi. Land it anywhere you want now, it'll always do its 180 potency and combo into Dis. So basically both requirements were removed.

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Alright missed that point, then I guess it's over doing it then.

But the point that the damage potency is not enough to allow DRG to overtake the advantage of % damage dealt increase still pretty much stands. They just dumbed down the class but the DPS ceiling still loses to MNK's

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

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But it's not hyperbole. Missing BOTH positional bonuses every time results in a 4.57% decrease in gcd based damage. But that ignores all auto attack and instants (jumps, leg sweep, force crit etc). On my phone so I forget the exact % that those make up but just to ball park, let's say instants account for 10% and AA is 25% of total damage leaving 65% as gcd damage. That bumps the net effect of positional bonus as 2.97%. I'm guestimating the AA and instant damage so it maul be off a fraction off a % but you get the idea. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 2-3%. It's not hyperbole. It's math. So when I say doing the drg rotation is 98% of playing drg, I'm saying exactly what i mean. That is why this is so comical. When I say 98% it SOUNDS like an exaggeration because it's so absurd. But it's true. Everyone here is ranting about how much positionals still matter when, in point of fact, the really are completely inconsequential. The only difference of opinion is if you think 2-3% is inconsequential or not. But do not try to suggest that drgs paltry positional requirements carry anywhere near the same damaging potential to your play as mnks positionals or ninjas mudras/TA. Drg is literally the least punishing to your dps by no small margin. And that is not hyperbole.

If you disagree about drgs style or feel sure. We all got opinions. But stop pretending 5 gcds a minute losing a smidge of damage is some horrible brutally punishment. It's 2-3%.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

If you disagree about drgs style or feel sure. We all got opinions. But stop pretending 5 gcds a minute losing a smidge of damage is some horrible brutally punishment. It's 2-3%.

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@ 363 SS (2.479 GDC), 476 CRT (17.2%, i135
Rotation time: 59.5
Total Potency: 8552
PPS: 8552/59.5 = 143.7310924369748 PPS

Missing CT Positional
(50*1.15)*1.1*(1+0.5*0.172) = 68.6894 x2 = 137.379 Potency loss
Rotation Time: 59.5
Total Potency: 8414 (rounded)
PPS: 8414/59.5 = 141.4117647058824 PPS

Missing HT positional
(70*1.15)*1.1*(1+0.5*0.172) = 96.1830986 x3 = 288.5492958 Potency loss
Rotation time: 59.5
Total Potency: 8263 (rounded)
PPS: 8263/59.5 = 138.8739495798319 PPS

Missing both Positionals
Rotation Time: 59.5
Total Potency 7837
PPS: 7837/59.5 = 131.7142857142857
143.7310924369748 / 131.7142857142857 = 1.09123389

It's a 9% PPS loss.

The PPS gain from patch 2.45 is 5%. You're doing 4% less PPS than pre-2.45 if you do not hit all positionals and to go lazy mode. Of course, this is the most extreme scenario of the #1 loldrg, but to say it doesn't matter?

You keep arguing how your 4-5% calculated damage makes no difference, when that was the exact buff us Dragoons received this patch. Whether you like it or not, hitting all your positionals MATTER.

If you're averaging 600DPS now, not hitting all/some positionals with your calculated damage (I don't know how you got this number): 27DPS loss. That matters. Anyone doing 15DPS less than they should be is of a concern for raids.

EDIT: It does translate to 3.58490% DPS loss in total, so a 21.5094 DPS loss if you're averaging 600DPS hitting all positionals on target. Either way, that's nearly our entire DPS gain from patch 2.45 gone. They still matter.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

@ 363 SS (2.479 GDC), 476 CRT (17.2%, i135
Rotation time: 59.5
Total Potency: 8552
PPS: 8552/59.5 = 143.7310924369748 PPS

Missing CT Positional
(50*1.15)*1.1*(1+0.5*0.172) = 68.6894 x2 = 137.379 Potency loss
Rotation Time: 59.5
Total Potency: 8414 (rounded)
PPS: 8414/59.5 = 141.4117647058824 PPS

Missing HT positional
(70*1.15)*1.1*(1+0.5*0.172) = 96.1830986 x3 = 288.5492958 Potency loss
Rotation time: 59.5
Total Potency: 8263 (rounded)
PPS: 8263/59.5 = 138.8739495798319 PPS

Missing both Positionals
Rotation Time: 59.5
Total Potency 7837
PPS: 7837/59.5 = 131.7142857142857
143.7310924369748 / 131.7142857142857 = 1.09123389

It's a 9% PPS loss.

The PPS gain from patch 2.45 is 5%. You're doing 4% less PPS than pre-2.45 if you do not hit all positionals and to go lazy mode. Of course, this is the most extreme scenario of the #1 loldrg, but to say it doesn't matter?

You keep arguing how your 4-5% calculated damage makes no difference, when that was the exact buff us Dragoons received this patch. Whether you like it or not, hitting all your positionals MATTER.

If you're averaging 600DPS now, not hitting all/some positionals with your calculated damage (I don't know how you got this number): 27DPS loss. That matters. Anyone doing 15DPS less than they should be is of a concern for raids.

EDIT: It does translate to 3.58490% DPS loss in total, so a 21.5094 DPS loss if you're averaging 600DPS hitting all positionals on target. Either way, that's nearly our entire DPS gain from patch 2.45 gone. They still matter.

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Exept you assume you will miss ALL your positionnal. That is as much hard work as hitting them all: you have to aim for it.

If you do it randomly then overall half your positionnal will be correct. Same if you stand still either on flank or on rear. So the dps loss is half what you computed, if you really don't give a crap. Half of 3.58490 ?

1.79245%

That translates, for 500 dps (don't know where you got 600 but if your dps are doing 600 dps you clearly don't care about 20 more or less, during progression that is unrealistic), to:

8.96225 dps

Thanks for proving our point.

I really don't see what the problem is. None of the DPS classes in this game are actually difficult. Their rotations are childs play compared to most DPS classes I've used in other games. The mechanics of a fight is what brings the difficulty.

Monk is bloody easy. I really don't get this whole thing that MNK is SUPER DUPER HARD because of GL and because of positionals. It's not. The positionals are only a tiny minor inconvenience which become second nature when you keep doing the rotation. I don't even think about my positionals anymore. It's become so second nature, I just do them.

The only slightly complex thing about MNK is keeping GL up. That is down to experience in a fight. Once you have done a fight enough times, you know how to keep it up and what tricks to use to keep it going.

Let's have a quick look at Monk and DRG shall we?

• Both have positionals which do more dmg when used from the right direction.
  
  Both loses its buffs (HT/Dis/DoTs, GL/DK/DoTS) when the boss is off the screen and cannot be maintained.
  
  Until this patch, when forced to fight the boss from the front, where MNK could still keep up it's buffs though do less damage, DRG's rotation simply stopped. HT could not be applied, nor could ID be used to get up DB or CT. This has been changed to be the same as MNK. Less dmg, but with the ability to keep the rotation going.

If anything, both DRG and MNK are basically the same. The only difference is MNK's GL. Which is such an easy mechanic to use and get used to, it's laughable that bad people are trying to use it as a crutch to make themselves look better.

TLDR; ALL DPS classes in this game are easy to play. MNK is over-rated in it's difficulty and people use that over-ratedness to make themselves look better. If you cannot handle the classes in this game, then I dread to see what you would be like on some other classes form other MMOs.

DRG is fine as it is. Quit your whining.

You dragoons should stop comparing yourselves with Ninja, Dragoons are about as hard to play as Rogue this I agree with but Ninja is a whole other level.
Nevertheless in the end every class is easy because you get used to it.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

You dragoons should stop comparing yourselves with Ninja, Dragoons are about as hard to play as Rogue this I agree with but Ninja is a whole other level.
Nevertheless in the end every class is easy because you get used to it.

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NIN is easy as hell, it's easy mode of the easy modes.

And no, tiny inkling of "omg mudra lag wtffff" doesn't make it hard.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

NIN is easy as hell, it's easy mode of the easy modes.

And no, tiny inkling of "omg mudra lag wtffff" doesn't make it hard.

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Ninja is not hard to play, true. However it is hard to play to full potential. For example, I've seen several Ninja miss auto-attacks cause they paused to use Ninjutsu at range.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

Ninja is not hard to play, true. However it is hard to play to full potential. For example, I've seen several Ninja miss auto-attacks cause they paused to use Ninjutsu at range.

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Dragoon is not hard to play, true. However it is hard to play to full potential. For example, I've seen several Dragoons took unecessary damage because of Jump mistimings.

People who wynch and whine about dragoon being too easy, without actually playing one seriously, have a name when they do try to do so..... loldrg.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

NIN is easy as hell, it's easy mode of the easy modes.

And no, tiny inkling of "omg mudra lag wtffff" doesn't make it hard.

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So? It still doesnt change the fact that Dragoon plays like a Rogue, you still can't compare jumps to Ninjutsus. I'm not even talking about Mudra lag even though this is actually an issue for EU players.
I'm not saying DRGs didn't need the buff I'm still happy for them but I can't take the ones serious who think Ninja is easy mode compared to them.

Of course most people like to think they are the most handicapped or play the hardest class/underdog while topping meters. D:

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Originally Posted by Atreides

So? It still doesnt change the fact that Dragoon plays like a Rogue, you still can't compare jumps to Ninjutsus. I'm not even talking about Mudra lag even though this is actually an issue for EU players.
I'm not saying DRGs didn't need the buff I'm still happy for them but I can't take the ones serious who think Ninja is easy mode compared to them.

Of course most people like to think they are the most handicapped or play the hardest class/underdog while topping meters. D:

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So we are in mutual agreement then. All DPS classes in this game are easy to play.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

So we are in mutual agreement then. All DPS classes in this game are easy to play.

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No we are in agreement that you are delusionnal.

Edit: Just to humor you, i went to the dummy to try to do my rotation while failing every single jutsu. I dps was 20% lower than usual. A drg that miss all his positionnals, as discussed before, lose less than 4% dps ; and doing them randomly will make him succeed half the time, while a ninja who input mudras randomly... yeah, not so much.

But hey, keep thinking your job is as difficult as others. Attaboy.

...you did a parse where you failed every single ninjitsu and you think that's equivalent to a dragoon hitting his entire rotation from the flank? Sorry, it is you that are delusional. It would be more appropriate for you to do your entire rotation while parked at the flank and see what the damage differential is.

Booooowhooo....ninjas weren't crying "when" they had top dps. Get over it or go play another game it's really that simple. Stop moaning.....so many entitled players these days

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Originally Posted by Casper

No we are in agreement that you are delusionnal.

Edit: Just to humor you, i went to the dummy to try to do my rotation while failing every single jutsu. I dps was 20% lower than usual. A drg that miss all his positionnals, as discussed before, lose less than 4% dps ; and doing them randomly will make him succeed half the time, while a ninja who input mudras randomly... yeah, not so much.

But hey, keep thinking your job is as difficult as others. Attaboy.

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Firstly, Mudras are not hard. In any way whatsoever. If you are messing up Mudras, at any time, then don't play NIN. Naturally, I knew you did it because you were trying tomake a point (a remarkably stupid point, by the by. "Look my class is less brain dead than yours!") but the point is still there. We are judging the DPS of a bad player here. If that's the case, then might as well just write them off completely, because they're bad, thus they'd take too much damage, fail to move out of shit and die any way. It's a moot point.


Alright. Time to humour you too, I guess. Let's have a look at what Mudras do.

Attack speed buffs, doesn't require a target, just for you to not fuck up your simple mudra. ONCE EVERY 60 SECONDS.
Single target nuke. Requires target. No positional.
Single target move to let you use Trick Attack. Requires target. TA has one positional requirement. ONCE EVERY 60 SECONDS.

Posion, not a mudra, but just a 20% buff to your DPS. Straight up. No target needed. No micro management.
Oh a slashing debuff that can be applied, but is applied by Warriors instead.
Oh and none of the NIN moves, apart from TA, loses any DPS due to positionals. At all.

Alright, let's look at DRG shall we. Both pre buff and post buff.

Pre buff:

Buff move that ups your DMG by 15%, requires you to be flanking the foe. Without a flank, you cannot apply your buff. Has to be applied every 20 seconds.
Buff move that increases piercing dmg taken by the enemy, no one else can apply this debuff. Oh and to use this move you HAVE to use the ability prior to this from behind the target. If you don't, then you can't do this move. Oh you can't use the one after that puts a DoT on the target. Applied every 30 seconds.
BOTH REQUIRE A TARGET. NO TARGET. NO BUFF.

Post buff:

Instead of locking out these combos, instead, you can use these abilities to gain their benefit and to continue your combo, yet you deal reduced damage.

So, what is my point, looking at the above?

NINs can have 100% uptime on their buffs without worrying that the will fall off, even if the boss is not target-able. Takes very little time to wind up their damage. Apart from TA, they lose no damage from having to attack the boss from in front.

DRG can not have uptime of any buff, what so ever without the boss being target-able. If they are forced to attack from the front, they lose DPS. NIN's don't have this at all, except for in the form of TA.

If a NIN fails his Mudras, that is used once every 20 seconds, it's his own fault. If a DRG is forced to attack from the front then his DPS loss is on the encounter, not the fact that he can't do a simple rotation.

Also, I main a MNK. I also play NIN and DRG. They're all easy. You're the delusional one if you think any of these classes are actually difficult in any way whatsoever.

Gods, Feral Druid back in WOTLK. Now that was a difficult bloody class to play.

Considering how long DRGs have been mocked (especially if you count the stigma in XI), I'd say being a little overpowered for awhile is just compensation.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

But it's not hyperbole. Missing BOTH positional bonuses every time results in a 4.57% decrease in gcd based damage. But that ignores all auto attack and instants (jumps, leg sweep, force crit etc). On my phone so I forget the exact % that those make up but just to ball park, let's say instants account for 10% and AA is 25% of total damage leaving 65% as gcd damage. That bumps the net effect of positional bonus as 2.97%. I'm guestimating the AA and instant damage so it maul be off a fraction off a % but you get the idea. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 2-3%. It's not hyperbole. It's math. So when I say doing the drg rotation is 98% of playing drg, I'm saying exactly what i mean. That is why this is so comical. When I say 98% it SOUNDS like an exaggeration because it's so absurd. But it's true. Everyone here is ranting about how much positionals still matter when, in point of fact, the really are completely inconsequential. The only difference of opinion is if you think 2-3% is inconsequential or not. But do not try to suggest that drgs paltry positional requirements carry anywhere near the same damaging potential to your play as mnks positionals or ninjas mudras/TA. Drg is literally the least punishing to your dps by no small margin. And that is not hyperbole.

If you disagree about drgs style or feel sure. We all got opinions. But stop pretending 5 gcds a minute losing a smidge of damage is some horrible brutally punishment. It's 2-3%.

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After a night of checking out the changes there really isn't much difference, still 2 positionals to hit, they are just more forgiving in that it doesn't completely halt your combo if missed.

Still some exaggeration, though. If GCDs are "65%" and off-GCDs are another "10%", then only 75% of being a good DRG deals with the rotation, 23% less than you are claiming. This is the definition of exaggeration lol. I mean you seem stuck on the point that missing positionals is only 2-3% loss, but missing AA is an even worse loss. It's not just hitting buttons in the right order, a 98% DRG missing positionals still has to do everything else a 100% DRG does. Hardly lazy or faceroll easy.

Is DRG more forgiving now? Yes defintely. More forgiving than the other melees? For the most part, yes. (I really can't consider MNK GL3 as some sort of mechanic, it's just there, it's not 12 other buttons to push like Ninjitsus or all DRG jumps and stuff)

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Originally Posted by Andevom

Considering how long DRGs have been mocked (especially if you count the stigma in XI), I'd say being a little overpowered for awhile is just compensation.

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The only issue is, we are not overpowered at all. Neither are we best ST DPS in game, nor do we have the same kind of utility the other Meless DPS classes offer. So where is that "overpowered" state supposed to come from?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Casper

No we are in agreement that you are delusionnal.

Edit: Just to humor you, i went to the dummy to try to do my rotation while failing every single jutsu. I dps was 20% lower than usual. A drg that miss all his positionnals, as discussed before, lose less than 4% dps ; and doing them randomly will make him succeed half the time, while a ninja who input mudras randomly... yeah, not so much.

But hey, keep thinking your job is as difficult as others. Attaboy.

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So don't miss your mudra. Its not like doing mudra is difficult...at all. The only thing that makes mudras difficult is lag.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Casper

Just to humor you, i went to the dummy to try to do my rotation while failing every single jutsu. I dps was 20% lower than usual. A drg that miss all his positionnals, as discussed before, lose less than 4% dps ; and doing them randomly will make him succeed half the time, while a ninja who input mudras randomly... yeah, not so much.

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DRGs have to work less than MNK and NIN, according to you because... they can stand on the flank and only lose a very marginal amount of DPS. I can see this being true for MNK vs DRG due to MNK having multiple rear positionals and DRG only having one, thus with both standing on the flank a MNK will lose more DPS than a DRG while both still being able to hit their flank positionals. NIN, on the other hand, has no positionals outside of TA every minute and can therefore stand anywhere. Your argument is that they have the Mudra system, which is just... not the same as positionals. You don't have to learn when the boss is going to move or when the boss needs to be repositioned so that you don't try to hit X too soon. The only time your mudras ever change in ANY fight is when you decide to hold onto Suiton if the boss happens to jump or you want to use it on an add. That's not the same. I understand that it's different and maybe you're not used to it so it seems a bit "whoah difficult" but it's a 2-3 button sequence every time the CD refreshes (or hold it for a bit due to other things taking priority) which isn't exactly putting you miles above the difficulty of DRG or MNK. NIN is not complex. Neither is DRG. Neither is MNK. They're all super simple. As I said before, this is legitimately splitting hairs. DRG gets a bit more DPS than NIN, meanwhile TA will scale better than Disembowel and NIN still has Goad + Silence + Slashing debuff. I'm not even going to point out the utility MNK has because if you think MNK's utility doesn't make up for it's slight complexity then you've gone off the rocker. Any DRG worth his/her salt is going hit all their positionals, so at a high level your argument is completely invalid and all jobs retain their initial difficulty because the point of a DPS is to push your DPS to the limits, not to stand there and take the 6 DPS loss. At a low level not only does it not matter because DPS doesn't matter for people who don't know how to DPS (or they're doing fights where pushing your DPS doesn't exist and therefore any job can pass them with flying colors) but literally there is a hair width of difficulty between all 3 jobs. I really don't care that DRG does slightly more DPS than NIN, not even accounting for the fact that TA provides more raid DPS than Disembowel because apparently nobody factors that in and just sees that DRG does more than NIN, because literally atm both jobs can push any DPS check in the game and neither of them are difficult. You know who's in a sinking ship right now? SMN. Not NIN with their "BUT MUH 10 DPS DIFFERENCE QQ".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Casper

No we are in agreement that you are delusionnal.

Edit: Just to humor you, i went to the dummy to try to do my rotation while failing every single jutsu. I dps was 20% lower than usual. A drg that miss all his positionnals, as discussed before, lose less than 4% dps ; and doing them randomly will make him succeed half the time, while a ninja who input mudras randomly... yeah, not so much.

But hey, keep thinking your job is as difficult as others. Attaboy.

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You did a perfect rotation for drg from the flank?

Then purposely messed up EVERY mudra on nin?

If this is the case, then your comparison is heavily biased. It wasn't a very good test at all. To compensate, you would have to not use the jumps or something.

Edit: For anyone wondering, in straight up ST damage it is still

Mnk > Nin > Drg. The patch has nin falling less than 2% of the total damage they were doing before. It wasn't a huge nerf at all. They shouldn't have bothered, that's how little it changed their ST dps. If someone pulled 520 before, now they should be pulling something a little above 510.

It's just drg is now in the same ballpark stadium as mnk/nin. Or finally making the nba all-star when everyone knows the should have been on the roster to begin with.

Now it's your 3 melee > ever one else. It needs to stay this way. The moment ranged dps outdoes or comes close to melee dps, melee dps becomes invalid for just about anything but LB overall.

Op doesn't even have monk or dragoon to 50 yet managed to complain enough about things he pretty much doesn't know about to elicit 16 pages of argument. Nice.

Also I haven't seen it mentioned (I also don't want to read through all 16 pages of this) but Chaos Thrust now has a back requirement for an extra 50 potency (tooltip is incorrect in saying its a flank req, I do higher damage hitting it from the back).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by siverstorm

Op doesn't even have monk or dragoon to 50 yet managed to complain enough about things he pretty much doesn't know about to elicit 16 pages of argument. Nice.

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That's forums in a nutshell for ya :rolleyes:

Gives people that feeling that they can speak about things as if they are the professional (when they know nothing) especially when they have not even played the class to its fullest. It's like going to the movies and watch the previews then walk out complaining that the movie was bad.

MNK? It's not even unlocked yet. lol and DRG he only played it to the level for BfB for cross-class abilities, you can tell he did not take the time to actually learn DRG, I unlocked mine recently before the patch, but I paid close attention to most of the class and notice how horrible even in early levels DRG's dps was in comparison to the other two melee DPS classes. I relied heavily (pre drg) on stacked dot's, the LNC one and fracture from MRD, but now I won't even see what the past gripes were for myself as I have not leveled my DRG high enough to experience the true fail of the DPS punishment at it's top performance pre-patch 2.45. I've only read about them...

I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt here... maybe he has an alt that has monk and dragoon at lvl50.

I hope so, because it would be pretty unbelievably stupid to comment on a class when you have no idea how it plays.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by beowulf81

I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt here... maybe he has an alt that has monk and dragoon at lvl50.

I hope so, because it would be pretty unbelievably stupid to comment on a class when you have no idea how it plays.

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Based on his comments I can confidently say that isn't the case, if he does have an alt then at most he might've hit 50 and never looked back. I came in here thinking he might've had a couple of good points but as I progressed further and further into this thread it just became a joke. But at the same time I fully expected salty nins to run around complaining about the buffs to drg the second it was revealed.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Izsha

<snip>

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Remember the point where your mathematics teacher docked your grades because you did not show your work? This is the reason why. It ceases to become mathematics when you shorthand, it becomes estimation, and those who guess usually 'guess' in favor of their bias, thus, hyperbole. I asked, and continue to, as a personal request, that you do not throw percentages around unless you can (and this case do) provide the long math to support it.

More than willing to do the full break-down when I'm not getting pulled into work early. The comparisons that need to be made is DPS lost on positional now to what they were then. However I feel this is rather a wasted gesture as it begins to focus more on the validity of guesstimated math and less on the point of the matter.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a class that is 'least punished' by positional errors. There will always be one. The point in class balancing is to bring averages into alignment and this did so. In fact, managing positional is not a determent as it was before, but more managing a bonus.

To be more succinct, what is your point? That Dragoon should be 'harder'? Or should other DPS be easier? These are playstyle choices that are irrelevant to the purpose of the patch which was to short up the punishment mechanics on Dragoon (which has been achieved) and increase the performance skill floor and cap, which has been achieved.

Nothing in the patch so far seems to have taken away form my experience as a Dragoon in practical application. I can engage and reengage quicker, which I actually enjoy. And I am still managing rotations and 9 dps cooldown timers. It's just far less frustrating when the monster turns at the inopportune time now.

We can argue adding more depth and synergy to Dragoon's kit for future patches to make the class 'more engaging' But for now. This was a quick and dirty patch to get Dragoon's back up to speed in a situation where they were quite vocally getting ostracized by the community.

How i say before, i dont think the Drg needs the buff and its my Main o_o, The Drg generate a good dmg whit the correct rotation, i feel greatfull for the upgrade but i believe thats no full necesary, and the "debuff" on Nin no feels so much so whats the matter?
I just waiting for the expanxion and there really expect something to do for Drg like new habilities or something xD
Greetings ;)