Myth Message being used to excluded players

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Originally Posted by Mertrodome

Only slightly related, but how do you know how many times someone has cleared something? Is this info viewable on Lodestone? Would be interested to see how many times I've personally killed various things (only started in 2.3 so "not many" is the answer, haha)

Just curious, I thought it only showed first kill date on there is all :)

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You get an achievement from T5 first clear and fifth. You cannot tell how many clears they have done but you can check if the person has the achievement for first clear of T5, fifth clear of T5 and tenth clear of T5. There is no achievement for example for anything after the tenth clear so they could of done it a hundred times but only has the achievement can check up to tenth. The same applies to first set of coils, second set of coils and final set of coils. You can see what achievements someone has here by putting in the name of the character etc then clicking on the achievements tab in their profile for that character. It does not mean you can view everyone's achievements however as people can hide/refuse permission to allow others to access that information like Ellatrix does on her characters profile for example.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Avoiding what? I'm not wrong. You are since you have literally not done any content that requires spending more than 30 minutes to learn.

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Yes what you said previously in this thread of which I spoke about has been proven wrong many times in many aspects within this thread, being in denial does not change this. I think it is about time you grow up and start taking responsibility for the things you say and do. When your wrong about something, have the humility to admit it and move on instead of deflecting criticism, moving the goal posts, changing the subject or changing the context in the hopes that you can dig your way out of the hole you created for yourself. I do not think you are stupid so it must be down to arrogance or ego as to why you keep doing so.

I see however instead of doing that your making yet another ignorant statement trying to associate my partial raid experience (which is by far plenty enough to discuss the topic in an educated and informed manner), implying because I have not cleared as much raid content as you that I have no right to talk about it. Just like someone saying if you haven't even cleared T13 how dare you comment on coils in general. I sometimes wonder if you even think before you speak/type...I have more than enough experience to talk about and discuss the pitfalls and benefits of what this topic is about and everything I have referred to in your comments whether that is about forming PF groups or clearing content from raids, trials and dungeons. I have more than enough experience and common sense to counter the fallacies you spout.

Your inaccurate and often proven wrong statements in here however have come from both people who have partial raid experience and those who have probably as much as yourself. You lack common sense and also fail to take into account I got my current EX clears and raid clears in the space of around two weeks taking it very casually and sparsely due to RL work commitments.

Just because I have not yet bothered to even form a group for trying to do for example T9 does not mean I am incapable of doing it when I choose to get around to trying so it does not indicate in any way whatsoever my competence for doing them when I choose to try in the future. Achievements in profiles also do not tell you how many attempts it took to clear that content and as such is not related to competence of a person or their ability to handle the content. Taking into account all of this does also not change the fact I have used PF and DF more than enough times to be educated on the pros and cons of each plus explaining the pitfalls and problems with the soldiery notification at start of a trial, dungeon or raid run which is abused or misused in more areas of the game than just PF listings.

None of this changes that once again you refused to deal with the inaccuracy pointed out to you in a previous comment, you again decided to change the subject in an effort to deflect from accepting your previous comments were wrong and factually inaccurate. If anyone ever disagrees with you they will quickly see you will never admit you are wrong about anything even when proven wrong by many people, you will always deflect criticism by changing the subject or changing the context all in an effort to avoid admitting your mistakes just like you have done this time again.

Your like the puppet in Punch and Judy, when everyone is telling you he's behind you...you refuse to believe them or accept that yes, he is in fact behind you. When you finally turn around and see you are wrong though your reaction instead of saying "oh, so he is behind me..." your response is more akin to yelling at the crowd things like "well...erm...he is not the same guy I was referring to or talking about!" or "well you people in the audience are not puppets, how dare you speak to me until you become a puppet too!". Everyone can clearly see your just moving the goal posts or deflecting because cannot bare to be wrong about anything. The fact is in this hypothetical scenario the guy was behind you, the audience was right and they were right regardless of not being actual puppets too and the same applies to a lot of your comments in here where people having pointed out the errors in your stance or mistakes in your statements.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

You're kind of in a bubble and I wonder the skill level of the players you play with. You've done T5 <4 times. You've only set foot in first coil in the last month, and you haven't even touched second coil. You haven't cleared TitanX, IfritX, MogX, RamuhX, or ShivaX.

Why are you trying to somehow speak of content in which you flat out have zero experience in? I guess I see why you're now trying to argue so hard that people without clears should be let in farm parties...

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First off, you again are missing the forest for the trees. Just because someone has yet to clear T9, doesn't automatically make them a 'bad' player. It ONLY makes them 'someone who hasn't cleared T9' Nothing more, nothing less.

But let me use my own personal 2.0 history for you, to give an example of the type of people you continue to harass in this debate.

At launch, I was in the 'top' static of my FC. So by October of that patch, we had T1-4 on farm (including doing T2's actual 'rot' method), and were poised to work on T5. One of our static mates found out he had cancer, and we all decided, to wait to challenge T5 until he was well enough to work at it. Other static's simply would have said 'Sorry to hear that dude', found a replacement and continued on, we did not. But, this meant, we didn't even try T5 again until January. Meaning, we had access for MONTHS, and never set foot inside, just kept farming T1-4 each week. Also, because we were the 'top' team of the FC, we were the team that typically beat all the EX primals First, and then taught other people in the FC the battles. So we cleared, Garuda,Titan, and Iffy EX....and then purposefully took new folk in instead of farming stuff for ourselves and not assisting FC mates.

Still, around late Jan, I left this FC due to internal reasons. I then joined a newer FC, with members that had just recently started playing. Over the next several months, I helped them all 'catch up' to me. This meant teaching them, and patiently sitting through many, many wipes as they learned all the 'old' content on their way to unlocking the current content I was sitting poised to do. Sure, I also occasionally worked on my own progression outside the FC with other groups of Friends, but for the most part, I dedicated most of my 'endgame' time towards assisting my FC mates. They now, are up to T6, and Ramuh EX content wise, which is pretty good considering most of them play pretty casually, and only started after Christmas.

But now, I'm pregnant. I cannot commit to an endgame 'raid static' because over the past couple months, I needed to go throw up a lot (thanks minion). But by early spring, I'm going to likely need to take an extended break from the game...or bare min., simply cannot commit to playing on a specific time schedule as it would not be fair to my raid group to be like 'yo sorry we're at 20% on this boss, but my baby really needs to be fed right now' And/or just the sporatic 10-20ish minute breaks I would need to potentially take to attend to said minion. Sure, there are people in game who don't consider others time and work...but I am not one of those. Therefore, for the next year, unless I feel compelled to join a Party Finder party (which I seldom do), or unless someone in my FC invites me to the battle, I likely will be sitting on the sidelines for most of the 'endgame' content. Which is okay. But my personal playing skill did not diminish.

Case in point, last night was the first night I tried T7, and no, we did not win. But over all the wipes that happened, only 1 was partially my fault, and even that was more on the kiter than me. (I missed cursing one of the Ranalds b/c he was too far out from the pile and he woke up/1-shot me and then the other healer=no healers=wipe). The rest of them were other party members not kiting right, or stoning eachother/the party what have you. But really, nothing I could do about that. Basically, meaning, I have no doubts that I could join a 'clear' party and win.....likely even a farm party if I wanted to be especially brave. (But again, I don't typically use PF, so just like last night, I'll wait until someone asks 'KK mind healing T7?' and do it then). But just because I'm in no rush, and just because I haven't put a priority into this content, doesn't mean I'm automatically a horrible player.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Only if I personally know the player. Also as I do a majority of T9 sales on the server, I know who the buyers are - and they don't join my farm parties anyway.

I really don't understand why people with little to no raid experience are trying to debate criteria for making an effective party, when this isn't an activity that they partake in.



Avoiding what? I'm not wrong. You are since you have literally not done any content that requires spending more than 30 minutes to learn.

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And therein lies your REAL problem. You do not want people to be capable of winning their first runs via PF...or even DF, because you would prefer to prey upon them and make gil. You do realize most people would rather never beat the content than pay the likes of you to 'assist' them with it. You are simply trying to protect your earnings, and the only way you feel you can do that is to exclude every single soul on your server who hasn't already cleared the content in established groups. Most people joining, learning,clear, and farm parties via the PF however are doing it b/c they don't have established static's (for whatever reason). They don't want to waste your time...and they are hoping the group doesn't waste theirs. They want to earn their wins, not 'buy' them (after all, if they wanted to buy it, you already offer the service).

So yes, you are perfectly within your right to say 'no 100tome bonus' or 'must possess a High Allagan weapon', but by so doing, you are keeping a pretty large percentage of the talent pool out of your parties/groups. Furthermore, most people who meet your requirements, aren't actually in need of a 'farming' party anymore anyway. Still, I have been in plenty of runs where the 100-tome person isn't the one wiping the group...the person with the High Allagan actually is. (lovely ST fun). And yes, I've seen High Allagan sporting party members still fall off Titan HM's platform in a duty roulette. But if gear=skill, and 1 clear=skill to you, nothing anyone here can say will ever change it. Personally, I think that my ability to heal, and pull through hard content with a rag-tag, under geared, still trying to get their first clears team, and us all being successful, proves I might actually heal better than those garbed in High-allagan who only play with equally experienced team mates, and who never have to scramble and cover for party member mistakes, but hey, your party, your rules. If you want to insist folk like me 'suck', feel free. You just keep making yourself look bad.

I'm the first to admit when I make a mistake.

However, I'm not wrong here. Saying having experience clearing content is in no way related to your ability to clear it is a straight up logical fallacy (you like that word a lot, don't you?).

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Just because I have not yet bothered to even form a group for trying to do for example T9 does not mean I am incapable of doing it when I choose to get around to trying so it does not indicate in any way whatsoever my competence for doing them when I choose to try in the future

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Here's a challenge for you since you seem to think it's so easy and that watching a video is an adequate form of experience:

Clear T9 before the echo maintenance next week, in a group where everyone will get first clear achievement. If you manage to do that, I'll be impressed.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

I'm the first to admit when I make a mistake.

However, I'm not wrong here. Saying having experience clearing content is in no way related to your ability to clear it is a straight up logical fallacy (you like that word a lot, don't you?).



Here's a challenge for you since you seem to think it's so easy and that watching a video is an adequate form of experience:

Clear T9 before the echo maintenance next week, in a group where everyone will get first clear achievement. If you manage to do that, I'll be impressed.

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What I actually said was just because you have a clear under your name does not mean it proves that person has the ability themselves to clear something and I gave examples of why this is such as buying a clear, being carried, even being dead the entire run while everyone else in the group cleared it for you. The context being clears are not limited to your performance within a run or your own ability to kill the boss, it is related to the groups performance (fact). I also previously said reading a guide and/or watching a video tutorial is a valid form of experience and I also never once said T9 was easy either. All three things you have tried to misrepresent in your latest comment.

What your doing here is trying to mislead, another form of deflection. Just like on page six, second comment from the top if anyone wants to go back and look up the context on what I am talking about in which you tried to misdirect and alter the outcome of a previous discussion via clearly shown ignorance and bias of your reply when taken in the context of what was being discussed, you are doing the same here again. Misrepresenting and once again trying to change the context of another persons response in order to discredit them and to avoid taking responsibility for the mistakes and errors you have made.

On your challenge comment, I am sure my boss will love me ringing him up and telling him forget the tight deadline I am currently on...Sorry boss I have to log into the game and clear some content to gain the respect of someone who has been spouting nonsense for days on a video game forum thread. I will be lucky to find time to even log in this weekend or even the coming week until my RL work is done (you know the thing which pays the bills). If by some luck I manage to find time to actually play, I (may) try to clear T9 if I feel like it but I personally would rather do 6 then 7, followed by 8 before 9.

I sure as hell won't do something to impress you, a person who's arrogance and ignorance has left me with no respect for them and by proxy no interest in earning theirs. If I find time and if I choose to do it then so be it but make no mistake I have no desire to do something just because some arrogant, elitist ignoramus on a forum tells me to do so. Get over yourself already, as much as you love to think the world revolves around you, it in fact does not. How about flip the coin and say here is a challenge for you...how about you stop posting in this thread and stop hiding/denying and running away from the fact you were proven wrong over and over again using your tactics of misrepresentation, changing the subject or changing the context to suit your needs. No? Not even if it would impress me? /sarcasm

I think at this stage I am going to do what I thought would be a good idea previously and that is ignore the stupid and ignorant things you continue to say in here. Just like Kinseykinz said above, carry on if you want as your just making yourself look more and more bad the more nonsense you type. I would rather spend my time talking to the non-arrogant and non-ignorant people on these forums than waste anymore time talking to you with your extreme lack of common sense and childish but obvious attempts at manipulating discussion to avoid taking responsibility for the things you say by your use of the sort of methods I mentioned in the previous paragraph. Everyone with a shred of intelligence can see you keep misrepresenting the things I have said, taking things out of context on purpose and claiming I am saying things that I clearly did not.

You're again trying to say people who haven't cleared or attempted an encounter are just as good and capable as those who already have mastered the mechanics and have downed it numerous times.

Don't skip out on the Logic class in college, it's very useful, but you may struggle a great deal with it. But hey, just watch a video and you'll do just as well as those who already aced the class!

A : hey dude, u saw that X vs Y match for the heavy weight boxing worldchampionship on tv yesterday?
B : yea i watched it, its like a piece of cake watching X beating Y to a pulp!
A : woot, u mean u can do it like beating that Y guy if u happen to cross him on the road and pick a fight with him?
B : yeah sure, i've enough experience gained from watching the show! just watch me!

Anyway t13 peep, rule no 1 to open a "mutual understanding discussion" is to check the other speaker if they got DW or just full Sol/weathered sol/no t9 HA

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Originally Posted by Empressia

A : hey dude, u saw that X vs Y match for the heavy weight boxing worldchampionship on tv yesterday?
B : yea i watched it, its like a piece of cake watching X beating Y to a pulp!
A : woot, u mean u can do it like beating that Y guy if u happen to cross him on the road and pick a fight with him?
B : yeah sure, i've enough experience gained from watching the show! just watch me!

Anyway t13 peep, rule no 1 to open a "mutual understanding discussion" is to check the other speaker if they got DW or just full Sol/weathered sol/no t9 HA

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Because it's TOTALLY the same as watching a fight against an opponent that was programmed to do what it does. While I agree that watching a video is not adequate preparation, this analogy leaves a lot to be desired.

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Originally Posted by Melondra

Cast Med. and Cast. Prat need a I50 Cap put on those 2 dungeon to prevent SR this should get rid of most of the bad behavior on those runs. And I have actually booted players for harassing other new player who have not finished it yet.

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All that would do is stop players queing up for main scenario roulette.

So good luck waiting hours and hours to progress the main 2.0 story.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Having the weapon does not prove multiple clears...

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Their party, their rules. You don't like the rules? Don't join the party, and don't demand that they change their rules for you. They can set the rules to whatever they want, as strict as they want or even as silly as they want, It is their choice and they are using PF for what it was designed for!

Party Finder was implemented to help you find players to fit your requirements.

No party in PF that fits your personal requirements? Make your own instead of complaining that others who are, are asking for other requirements.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Their party, their rules. You don't like the rules? Don't join the party, and don't demand that they change their rules for you. They can set the rules to whatever they want, as strict as they want or even as silly as they want, It is their choice and they are using PF for what it was designed for!

Party Finder was implemented to help you find players to fit your requirements.

No party in PF that fits your personal requirements? Make your own instead of complaining that others who are, are asking for other requirements.

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Just because someone can do something does not always mean they should. People will abuse and misuse anything if they can and in this case that is what has happened to it. The idea and principle behind the introduction of the soldiery bonus was intended to be a good thing but people have taken one part of this feature namely the start of run notification and turned it into something harmful and bad for the people it was put in to help.

Either way I am sure my case for the removal of the notification at the start of a trial, raid and dungeon has been made in a sufficient manner for getting it removed already. The argument for it's removal due to not only it's misuse in PF listed which narrow minded people keep focusing on and trying to argue with me about but also its abuse in other areas of the game from fishing for soldiery bonus only runs to using it in a way opposite to it's intended purpose, hurting the new players it was designed to help. As such I do not think will be around for too long in which case this issue will be resolved soon enough. No-one here has given a good enough excuse to keep it just so that they can keep misusing and abusing it as opposed to removing it which resolves such misuse and abuse.

It's removal stops people from using/abusing the bonus notification at a start of a run to ditch groups which ask for vote kick, force a vote kick/abandon via disconnecting for few minutes or wiping the group on purpose in order to get kicked so can continue fishing for bonus only runs after left that group in the lurch...which is something SE already agree fishing in dungeon runs and such is something they want to stop hence the 30 minute penalty attempt to stop it before. The notification is being used to decide whether to ditch runs right at the start because of the notification popping up before the run has began instead of just at the end of which if was just at the end they would have to do the run before find out if was bonus soldiery, they would be forced to only judge people on their ability and competence during that run if only shown at the end and they would have to try to complete a run to see if they get rewarded with the bonus which is how it should be because that way people could not misuse/abuse it.

It's removal at start of a run will also stop people misusing it in PF listings when both the credibility and validity of using that notification as a way of judging competence or ability has been on multiple occasions is shown to not only be inaccurate and naive but also on top of that people are misusing it and using it to do the opposite of why it was implemented...even if this notification was removed from the game it would not be detrimental to groups in PF as nothing stops them for asking for cleared only people, item linked people or achievement linked people. They will still be able to kick people who lied about that only they will be kicking them for the right reasons like if they fail and are proven to be incompetent just like they do if someone who links achievement/item or has clear is shown to be incompetent.

It was added to help new players, to assist them and convince people to help them but far too many people are doing the opposite and using it to target and harm new players, it is not working as intended and like all things not working as intended it should be fixed. So keep hating on me all you want but I am quite sure SE are smart enough and wise enough to see the removal of the initial pop up notification at the start of runs will do more good than harm and I am sure it will be removed sooner rather than later because of this.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Just because someone can do something does not always mean they should. People will abuse and misuse anything if they can and in this case that is what has happened to it. The idea and principle behind the introduction of the soldiery bonus was intended to be a good thing but people have taken one part of this feature namely the start of run notification and turned it into something harmful and bad for the people is was put in to help.

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Putting requirements for a certain type of player in PF parties is not a misuse of the system. Kicking someone out after stating you want a certain criteria and finding out they do not fill it is not misuse of the system. If someone is looking for a healer for PF, would you join as a BRD? Same thing applies to those asking for players with previous clears.

If someone joins a PF party that requires clears and they don't have a clear, they lied and why won't they expect a kick? If they PMd the PF leader and explained the situation, IF they can clear to 1% and the party accepts that, then fine. If all these who say they can clear to about 1% and the wipe is "always someone else" if they are as good as they try to project then they would not need to lie to get into parties.

All these players claiming they can get the boss to 1%, last person standing, never make mistakes, always the other players, all those parties have one thing in common. The person making those claims.

Hard truth is too many players want to hide the fact they do not know the fight, whether with outright lies or if they changed it to hiding the bonus for new players because they just want to be carried to an easy win witht he feeling of self entitlement that they can join any farm party they deisre and leech.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Putting requirements for a certain type of player in PF parties is not a misuse of the system. Kicking someone out after stating you want a certain criteria and finding out they do not fill it is not misuse of the system. If someone is looking for a healer for PF, would you join as a BRD? Same thing applies to those asking for players with previous clears.

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It is not a misuse of the PF system, the PF system is designed to filter groups, the PF system is working as intended and I never once said the PF system was being misused or abused. I said it is a misuse and abuse of the 'soldiery notification' both within the PF system and outside of it, the notification is not working as intended as the soldiery notification was not designed to be used in that way...people are exploiting the lack of foresight by SE when introduced this notification which was a means to help new players but some people turning it instead against new players. The whole thread is about the misuse and abuse of the 'soldiery notification' at the start of raids, trials and dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

It is not a misuse of the PF system, the PF system is designed to filter groups and I never once said the PF system was being misused or abused. I said it is a misuse of the 'soldiery notification' both within the PF system and outside of it, the soldiery notification was not designed to be used in that way. The whole thread is about the misuse and abuse of the 'soldiery notification' at the start of raids, trials and dungeons.

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Most players do not state they are new, more often than not you only know their is a player new to a duty because of that message. Using the soldiery notification is a necessary evil because those without clears or even no experience of the fight still think they are able to join any PF party they want to, irregardless of the posted requirements to join.

No notification? Players without clears can lie their way into a clear party and potentially waste everyone elses time. Keeping the notification prevents that. IF people didn't lie their way in, it wouldn't be needed. But they do, so it is.

Taking it to the DF, if a bonus sold pops up I know someone is new and can explain strats, if no message pops then no one is and can just start the run. Without that message I wouldn't know as in most cases hardly anyone states it is their first time.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Most players do not state they are new, more often than not you only know their is a player new to a duty because of that message. Using the soldiery notification is a necessary evil because those without clears or even no experience of the fight still think they are able to join any PF party they want to, irregardless of the posted requirements to join.

No notification? Players without clears can lie their way into a clear party and potentially waste everyone elses time. Keeping the notification prevents that. IF people didn't lie their way in, it wouldn't be needed. But they do, so it is.

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Necessary evil? What a load of bullshit, the is no way in hell that it is 'necessary' in any sense of that word. You are no worse off without it as you was before that pop up notification was introduced and people started misusing it. It is not needed at all, whether someone is new, someone has clears or someone has the link for achievement or item they all often can cause wipes and fails regardless of which category they fall into. Just like before if they fail you have the ability to kick someone hence why people say kill/fail=kick in PF. You have given no good reason as to why it should remain as it is and continue being abused and misused. You also continue just like every narrow minded and naive person who focuses only on the PF aspect to take into account that is just one reason out of many as to why it should be removed.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Taking it to the DF, if a bonus sold pops up I know someone is new and can explain strats, if no message pops then no one is and can just start the run. Without that message I wouldn't know as in most cases hardly anyone states it is their first time.

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It would not have a negative effect if was removed and your really grasping for straws using that excuse. People can and do often tell someone they are new and when they don't if they die or do something wrong you advise them how to do it right just like people have always done. Only with it gone you will not have people fishing for soldiery bonus only runs and you will not have it being used as an excuse to ditch and abandon groups so those people can continue fishing. Losing that heads up notification at start of a run which people are using to decide whether they want to continue trying to run it normally or whether they ditch and fish for another would merely stop the abuse of it which hurts everyone else in the group who are actually there for the right reason which is progression or trying to get a clear.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

People can and do often tell someone they are new and when they don't if they die or do something wrong you advise them how to do it right just like people have always done.

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If you read the OP again, it is about players kicking those who cause the bonus to pop up at the start, then it sidetracked to another that puts up clear only parties in the PF and rightfully kicking those who lied when they entered the party when the bonus message pops up.

Having the message pop up is one deterrent to players joining clear parties without fitting the PF creators requirements, aka lieing.

I only used the PF at the beginning, I do things in FC instead due to the number of players joining "clear parties" that had zero clue what they were doing. I remember one that before the message was shown, created a clear party for Titan HM, I was going for my 4th or 5th relic on PLD. 3-4 tries, one player kept dieing to the first WotL. so we abandoned, I asked if the SCH knew the fight, response I got was "No, I was hoping you would teach me". Didnt ask before joining, didn't say anything while queing, and only stated that after being asked after abandoning the duty. All he gained from that was being kicked and blacklisted for lieing.

I would never join a farm party if I hadn't succesfully cleared it enough to call it on farm status.

You accuse me of grasping at straws when you change the OPs post from new players being kicked to other players fishing for it! Something I have never seen.

This has gotten way too off track, and even I am to blame.

Main fact here is, if you use the bonus message purely as a means to quit, kick, or judge other players, you are wrong. Now, if you set PF criteria looking for experienced clears or any other requirements (extreme or not) and someone not meeting said criteria joins, yes, you are within your rights to kick them out.

Now, if you use the bonus message as a means to judge skill, again, you are wrong. Circumstances are rarely so black and white. And there are too many possibilities why to even note.

Still, the bonus message means nothing more than someone has yet to clear it, and an incentive has been provided to help them. Don't forget, plenty of times before. . . That was you.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

I would not be surprised if you yourself had been carried all the way up onto that pedestal you so proudly look down on others from.

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Just wanted to pull this out. I currently have the only Dreadwyrm weapon on the server that I play on. I totally got carried.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Main fact here is, if you use the bonus message purely as a means to quit, kick, or judge other players, you are wrong. Now, if you set PF criteria looking for experienced clears or any other requirements (extreme or not) and someone not meeting said criteria joins, yes, you are within your rights to kick them out.

Now, if you use the bonus message as a means to judge skill, again, you are wrong. Circumstances are rarely so black and white. And there are too many possibilities why to even note.

Still, the bonus message means nothing more than someone has yet to clear it, and an incentive has been provided to help them. Don't forget, plenty of times before. . . That was you.

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Why is so hard to understand that putting "no 100 bonus" in PF is synonymous with "previous clears only", which you seem fine with? And why is it that the players who don't do content where previous experience is incredibly important for a farm keep arguing that... it isn't? You're in an FC of soldiery superheros; you've seemingly not challenged content that requires a substantial time investment to learn.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Why is so hard to understand that putting "no 100 bonus" in PF is synonymous with "previous clears only", which you seem fine with? And why is it that the players who don't do content where previous experience is incredibly important for a farm keep arguing that... it isn't? You're in an FC of soldiery superheros; you've seemingly not challenged content that requires a substantial time investment to learn.

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Why can't you understand that previous does not equal skilled? Which is what people have been arguing in this thread. If you want skilled people for farming, fine. But assessing the skill of a player based on them having the bonus message or not is the worst way to do that.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Why is so hard to understand that putting "no 100 bonus" in PF is synonymous with "previous clears only", which you seem fine with? And why is it that the players who don't do content where previous experience is incredibly important for a farm keep arguing that... it isn't? You're in an FC of soldiery superheros; you've seemingly not challenged content that requires a substantial time investment to learn.

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I am not disagreeing with the fact that yes, it essentially means the same thing. I DO disagree with the fact that "previous experience is necessary for a farm" PURELY because I myself have shattered that idea. Many times. Did I lie about not having cleared it? No. I was upfront about it, knew my stuff, and while it may seem almost crazy to think, the rest of the party took a chance trusting me to know what to do and do my part. And we were all rewarded. Let's be fair though, it is generally accepted and understood that if you're joining a farm party, you've cleared the content.

You had a bad experience once. Maybe more than once. So have many of us. I farmed T5 5 times in one night with a great party I gathered in the PF (no threatening messages or "no bonus message" comments) before someone experienced came along and ruined it by performing poorly, possibly intentionally. Was I upset? Yes. Did it stop me? No. Has it driven me to set unnecessarily high requirements for kill/farm parties? No. Not ever. Fact is, if you can hang, and do what needs to be done, you're welcome with me, clear or no. Why? Cause there's plenty of things I CAN clear, I just haven't. Lack of interest, lack of a good party, or even just lack of trying. What makes me so different than others?

As for my FC, they are mostly casual players I've known for many years and I am quite close with, EVEN if we have different goals or ways we enjoy the game.When they were grinding out Animus/Novus content, I was joining every T5 group I could. Learning and pushing myself to reach the top. Teaching every other person I could find who was interested in doing so. At the time, they simply weren't interested (and inversely, I wasn't interested in Relic content.) When they were solely focused on Hunts and gearing up, I was getting my first T6/T7 clears, with a static I ultimately had to leave due to work schedules. A static that not long after that collectively left my server. Does it bother me sometimes? Yes. Does it stop me? No. Fact is, I've seen/done/tried too much to see things so black and white. I've seen farm parties full of experience fail hard, and learning parties full of "bonuses" if you will, come together and get the win. I've failed as much as I've succeeded, and bonus messages or previous clears have rarely been the reason why.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

Why can't you understand that previous does not equal skilled? Which is what people have been arguing in this thread. If you want skilled people for farming, fine. But assessing the skill of a player based on them having the bonus message or not is the worst way to do that.

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Because you're catering to an outlier. When you build a PF, you go for the norm. And the norm is, if you've cleared it, you stand a significantly better chance of knowing what to do than if you haven't.

Why do people who don't do raid content keep coming in here saying I'm wrong? Go clear stuff if you're so good and don't need prior experience to do so.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Because you're catering to an outlier. When you build a PF, you go for the norm. And the norm is, if you've cleared it, you stand a significantly better chance of knowing what to do than if you haven't.

Why do people who don't do raid content keep coming in here saying I'm wrong? Go clear stuff if you're so good and don't need prior experience to do so.

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I suppose I am rather abnormal. All the same. . . done!

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I suppose I am rather abnormal. All the same. . . done!

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I'm eagerly awaiting to see you fully decked out in high allagan when your lodestone next updates.

Not a bad idea actually. Instead, during that time I'll be helping my FC get initiated into Coil, learning how to work with my new static (this is entirely separate from my FC), learning Shiva Ex (again, lack of trying immediately, plus constantly being called to heal T6/7), finishing up NIN, capping Poetics, and whatever the hell I feel like doing.

But hey, I'll try to work "getting Senpai to notice me" into that list somehow.

I see no where in your list of things you like to do "farm raid content with pugs". Which is the entire premise for making exclusionary parties to restrict them to people who have already proven the ability to farm.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

I see no where in your list of things you like to do "farm raid content with pugs". Which is the entire premise for making exclusionary parties to restrict them to people who have already proven the ability to farm.

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Roiiiight. Because I'm sure you got your fancy:

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Just wanted to pull this out. I currently have the only Dreadwyrm weapon on the server that I play on. I totally got carried.

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by Pugging it on your server.

You are in a static. Which means you play and grow in skill with the same 7 other people each week. Likely, you even spend a lot of your energy grinding said content. That is fine. But all your 'having the first weapon on the server' proves is that collectively, your team is good and works well together. You each might have flaws, and faults...but you all also cover those faults and flaws...like a good team should.

But you're not Pugging this content. And even if you did, even if you were the most skilled player in the group, if the other 7 people couldn't also play to the same level, you likely would fail. And. It. Would. Not. Be. Your. Fault.

So, you keep demeaning and speaking down to 'the non-raiders' like once again, they personally don't have skill, because they either haven't cleared (for reasons you don't know btw) or don't possess weapons you deem 'worthy' enough. But many people who have yet to even enter T6+ let alone T10+ haven't done so, not because they lack the skill, or ability to learn it, but because they lack the solid group of 7 they can work with to achieve the victory. You keep implying their individual skill is what is holding them back, that they are simply bad players. You have no proof of this. All you have is proof that they likely don't have a static and/or time to join one....and likely that they lack the same desire as you to be 'cutting edge'. But again, you don't need to be cutting edge to be good....nor do good players always beat every battle they try. (You think of yourself as skilled yet I bet you could count into the 100's the times you've spent wiping out to things).

Honestly, it's now the how/why you make your PF parties that I find condescending, but rather the reasons you give as justifications to it...or your constant assumptions that 'if you aren't clearing T13 like me, then you have no right to speak'. Your time is NOT any more or less valuable than anyone else's playing this game. You aren't better. You have decided that your goals in game are to be at the cutting edge of content. Great for you. But you didn't do it alone. That shiny weapon you bragged about, it belongs to 7 other people as much as it belongs to you.

Think of it another way: You boss tells you 'Hey Ellatrix, sorry about this but I need you to work overseas in a remote location for 2 months, you'll have to rely on your phone for most communication b/c internet is spotty etc' So you have to step away from the game for 2-3 months. Do you expect your static to wait for you? Do you think your personal playing skill will diminish so greatly over that time that you will be 'unworthy' of your own FC/static, and groups you play with? Likely you'll think of yourself as the same top-tier player...but you would be likely behind in some content. Now, would you then think it fair for people to start saying/implying that you are unskilled at the game because you aren't on the absolute cutting edge of the game's content? I think this would piss you off.

And sure, your crew might catch you back up in no time, and they might even tell your rep 'hey our guy is back so thanks but uh, we'd like him to be in the static again' ....but they also might tell you 'sorry, but we like the new dude, you'll have to find a new group' And if you had to find a new crew, that would ALSO take time, and mean you'd likely need to PF/pug your way through some content....content you might not have cleared, but be plenty skilled and practiced to do. Now, how would you hope a party leader would treat you? As some nooblet, still wet behind the ears, or would you hope that if you were honest with them in your experience/skill they would be honest and fair with you?

All people are trying to say to you is this:

We get that 'No 100 tomes' is a quick, dirty way to say 'have experience' ...the problem is, it doesn't tell you that they can replicate it.

Yes, the '100 tome' bonus means someone has yet to clear, but it doesn't tell you WHY they didn't clear it, or if they possess or lack the skills to clear it w/ you. Of course folk without the confidence, and knowledge of the battle shouldn't be joining a Farm party...but you can simply put 'experienced with entire battle only/if 100 tome please /t me what your exact battle experience is before joining' You likely will get some solid talent this way, fill your party faster, AND be better received on your server.

More specifically, using the 100 tome message as the only measure of skill for a party, is wrong. Because it is possible, and honestly this happens more than it should, for people to get their 'win' without even being alive most of the battle. Or they didn't die, but they also were 'carried' in other ways. (personally were very low DPS/or were OT in a 1-tank battle/or healed 30% of what the other healer did etx) But again, if YOUR only requirement is 'no 100 tome message' then you are letting in these folks, that likely will wipe your group, and NOT letting in others that might actually, perform their role well enough that you walk away with a win on the first group attempt...even though it's their first clear.


Heck, before the tome bonus message came about, the most common Farm Party Message I'd see on my server was 'Farm party, 3 strikes you're out/don't be bad' And to be frank, that seems to be more on point with whom you actually wish to recruit to your group. People who can 1-2 shot it. And be reliable. Really, this is probably still the message you should use when creating farm parties today. Because it gives you access to the folk you really want, allows you some potential 100 tome here or there but also gives you the freedom to exclude people not up to the task.



Finally, you keep wanting to challenge people into beating T9 or even beyond before reset on Tuesday...or to deck out their character in their full High -Allagan.

Why don't you challenge yourself. Why don't you personally, and alone, join a learning/clear party with 7 other people who haven't cleared this SAME content you keep telling others to do. Do this via PF. And with 7 strangers, with different degrees of skill in the battle, win it. Because, I. Bet. You. Can't. Not with 7 strangers....and not re-starting with 5-7 more strangers every single time. But I ALSO bet you won't think 'gee, I must be the one who sucks'.

Heck, even within your own static, there have probably been times when you knew your role of the battle, and could do it flawlessly but there was still that phase or issue other people were having in the group that caused a wipe. And you accepted this, because you understood, that you can't win on your own....and they will get it soon. Also, because you have a connection with these folk, you don't mind spending extra time while they learn. Now, no one expects you to 'farm' with such people....people who don't have it down like you yet. But if you saw a PF group looking for your role, you had mastered on that battle, but not cleared, you'd hope you could join in.

My point: There is just a point when you personally actually know, and learned the battle, and can do your part of it well. But that doesn't mean you'll win, because you have to rely on 7 other people (or at least 5 of them), doing their part at least modestly well too for the win to happen. And these are the people, who likely are ready to join your groups...even w/o the clear achievement.

I simply posted that as a very obvious counter to being accused I got carried to where I am. I could have posted that I'm one of 8 people on the server with a Louisoix minion too, but I'm not sure everyone knows where that's from.

My argument is that if you haven't yet cleared content you shouldn't be joining farm parties. If you want to clear content bad enough, and your group is holding you back, then you have to choose between one or the other. A driven player will find a way to clear.

I spent over 30hrs in 2.0 joining and forming shout parties to challenge T5. Eventually, by networking with other players who did well, I cleared it in a pug. Then I built my own static, with 7 other people who had no clear yet, spent a week training them and then I had a static capable of clearing T5. So no, I don't need your lecture; I've been there before. I never expect more of someone else that I cannot do or have not done myself.

This is why linkshells exist. And why you want to keep networking with players, and playing with a group to progress together. The stuff that takes weeks to learn is where you slap on the 'multiple previous clears only' when you just want to farm. The only reason I bring in the past escapades of people arguing against me is because you don't seem to understand the time investment involved to get to the point where you can reliably farm the harder content in the game, since you have not chosen to challenge it yet. I have no reason to take a gamble on someone when the party will fill in <10min anyway with people meeting my requirements.

I farmed every Coil1 drop, have over 80% of Coil2 drops, and every primal drop (minus some useless Ramuh/Shiva weapons). My experience in farming content far surpasses the sum total of the people who are arguing against me. I've tried different approaches and found what works best in building a party that can reliably kill the thing and get loot - which is the core purpose of a farm party.

If I want to do a thing and there's no relevant PF up, I make my own.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

I see no where in your list of things you like to do "farm raid content with pugs". Which is the entire premise for making exclusionary parties to restrict them to people who have already proven the ability to farm.

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I should note, generally I don't farm. No real reason. I just don't. I did T5 once and that was because I REALLY wanted that bow. And I got it. Beyond that, I don't actively do it myself, but I'm not above helping someone out. And while yes, it's safe to assume anyone in a farm party has a clear, if they by chance don't, it's not a dealbreaker. The issue is, due to your bad experience you mentioned once, you assume hasn't cleared = isn't capable of clearing = can't farm. Should they try? Perhaps not. Is it impossible? I've proven otherwise, yet that seems not to register, again because to you bonus message = hasn't cleared (true) = can't clear (not necessarily true) = can't farm (unable to be proven based on previous criteria). And I'm not the only one who's noted this. Where perhaps are we not understanding each other?

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

A driven player will find a way to clear. . .Eventually, by networking with other players who did well, I cleared it in a pug. Then I built my own static, with 7 other people who had no clear yet, spent a week training them and then I had a static capable of clearing T5. So no, I don't need your lecture; I've been there before. I never expect more of someone else that I cannot do or have not done myself. . . This is why linkshells exist. And why you want to keep networking with players, and playing with a group to progress together.

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Later EDIT: Bingo. NOW we're on the same page. Many of these people are, in a perspective sense, untested. Just because they say they've cleared it, or haven't but know the fight is still something that's ultimately proven in the heat of battle. Farming aside, shutting the door in their faces purely from the bonus message is only counterproductive. I simply choose to give the benefit of doubt. And again, while your criteria is - from a knowledgeable perspective - unnecessarily high, if that's what gets the job done for you, so be it.

What you've acquired from farming truthfully is still not a measure of how skilled you are, and don't take that personally. Some people get the win dead on the ground, or was the reason the party ALMOST wipes and has to fight hard to recover, and just so happens to get their drop. I've got a humble 12 T5 victories, and only the bow and the BLM weapon I can't use (yet) to show for it. Healer boots and BRD gloves from 6. Nothing to show for 7 at all yet. . . None of that speaks of how well I performed in any of those roles. So while I understand that you're highly capable of farming, supported by the criteria you set for your personal parties, it can't rightly be considered relevant to the topic at hand.

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Originally Posted by Michizane

What happen is I'll joined a party T7 in PF which doesn't say that it is a farm, I'll tell them I have made it to the last part of the fight, but just haven't gotten clear, and be kicked. If I say nothing they will find out via myth message. I know the fight down pat and my gear is ilv110. There just isn't anyone doing it anymore that will have people who haven't cleared. I quit the game for a few months when Second Coil was introduced, so I didn't get clear when content is new. So it really has nothing to do with me being deceiving or not knowing fight. I just want to clear the dang thing so I can farm it without people kicking me.

*edit* Also the Shiva EX fight has been out for only two weeks and people won't take anyone who hasn't clear anymore on my server which is complete bull...

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I laugh at your misfortune.

Also I would like to throw this random comment into this thread.

Snacks are good in moderation. Pizza boxes are an excellent source of cheese.
Dragons have sharp pointy teeth. Stay away from them.
Wilfred Brimley has Diabetes. My local college team won the football game last night.
I am awake at 4:50 AM posting on this "entertaining" thread here.

Have fun with this folks.

I'm going to add a couple things to this stigma that some seem to have regarding the 100 tome message and being incapable of clearing content:

#1- In a Garuda EX farm party last week(going for ponies that don't exist) we enter and the message pops up. Now, normally I don't care if someone is brand new to a fight, we all start some where. Anyways, I asked who hadn't cleared and the healer piped up saying she hadn't yet cleared it. Since it was a farm party on easy content, I said let's give it one shot. We wiped the first try....but not because of the healer. Second attempt and we cleared. Had that message not shown, I never would have known that healer didn't already have that clear. She played flawlessly.

#2- I've been df'ing Titan EX for months attempting to get the clear, so much so that I know the entire fight, yet hadn't cleared it. 5% wipes on several occasions. Finally, I put it up in PF demanding that if someone wasn't 100% capable of clearing it, to not bother joining. It took a few attempts, but I finally got my clear. As a tank. I'd like to believe that had the rest of that clear party(bunch of SCoB folks, from the gear I saw) that had they not known before hand I didn't have the clear, they simply would've thought I'd cleared it many times before.

Also on Titan EX, there was a healer in one attempt a couple days prior that couldn't survive anything, plumes, landslides, sneezes whatever. He. Died. All. The. Time. Guess what? He had the clear for Titan, he even mentioned that it was possible to clear it with one healer because "he was dead his entire clear run".

You wouldn't get the message for that always-dead healer, but you would get the message for my-always last alive tank.

Just because that message pops up doesn't mean someone isn't capable of performing flawlessly and clearing the content. It just means that, for whatever reason, they have yet to do so, it is in no way on indication of skill.

They should remove the myth message. I've been on both sides of it. I've been the guy needing the clear who has had experience but just not a group of 7 other people capable and I've been the experienced player with the clear helping out the guy needing the clear. In both cases, the people with clear experience can/have caused just as many wipes as the "new guy."

Prior to the "myth message" showing up, if someone messed up too many times, they'd get kicked. The same would hold true now. I'd still kick someone with clear experience if they joined a farm PT and made too many mistakes.

They should just get rid of the message entirely. It helps no one.

If agree with any of us who said the soldiery notification at start of dungeon, trial or raid runs is being misused whether misused in DF or PF (even if do not agree 100% with everything being said about it but agree on principle) then click on "like" here.

I can't believe people are defending joining farm parties without a clear. Yes, it's possible you are an expert and can farm it with the right group. But let's be real: that's a very low possibility. You need to have some kind of proof you're capable and not having the solidery message is the easiest proof to have. Otherwise you are a risk and liability. Yes, having a clear doesn't mean you're an expert but it's a much safer bet.

I'd be fine if square got rid of the message if they added a check box for PF to only allow clears to join. People only use the message to filter because there's no good alternative. PF leader should have full control of who's able to join and if they don't want partial clears then you just have to accept that or try to negotiate with them. Sneaking in is one of the most dishonest and deceitful things you can do in this game.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

I'd be fine if square got rid of the message if they added a check box for PF to only allow clears to join. People only use the message to filter because there's no good alternative. PF leader should have full control of who's able to join and if they don't want partial clears then you just have to accept that or try to negotiate with them. Sneaking in is one of the most dishonest and deceitful things you can do in this game.

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There is and has always been a very good alternative, it's called writing must have clears, link item or achievement in the PF listing. There is and always has been a way to handle anyone who lies which is writing in the PF listing die/fail=kick and that applies to anyone with clear or without clear who dies or fails where you do the same thing which is kick them. There is no reason good enough given so far as to why it needs to remain but there is quite a few valid and good reasons why it should be removed. It should be removed not only because it is not a reliable indicator of actual ability or competence during runs but also because it was never intended to be used against and to harm the people it was implemented to help, not forgetting it's abuse in other areas of the game and not only it's misuse in PF listings. It is not working as intended, it is being abused in DF and misused in PF and as such it should be removed.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

There is and has always been a very good alternative, it's called writing must have clears, link item or achievement in the PF listing. There is and always has been a way to handle anyone who lies which is writing in the PF listing die/fail=kick and that applies to anyone with clear or without clear who dies or fails where you do the same thing which is kick them. There is no reason good enough given so far as to why it needs to remain but there is quite a few valid and good reasons why it should be removed.

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"Must have clear" is identical to "no 100 soldiery" in PF. You completely contradict yourself saying one is ok and not the other.

I think this is a good thing. I remember back in the days when you made farming groups. You could easily see that some had never even beaten that content, or didnt know what to do at all. When you make a farming PF now-- you'll know.


Almost every time I see the message I thank the person for the extra tomes. I love it!

You are open to make your own PF groups for things you know.

It's their party, their rules. Frankly Why don't we even go extra setting like "Must clear X" tickbox option for parties in PF, so those people can get the people with clear like they wanted (regardless of how shitty they performed) and no more hurt feeling from people who get kicked because they couldn't read.

As for people who abandonded in DF (Which is probably Tanks and Healers 100% of the time), those people are assholes and SE might as well implement even harsher penalty for them (Never mind that DPSes might need longer time to find queue either!)

Regarding OP's topic. Myth messages stay, whether you like it or not.