Mudra's seem sluggish?

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Leveling NIN in my spare time, noticed this too.

The amount of time it takes for the mudras to register varies a bit.

Maybe they should do it client side, i.e. only send the mudras after Ninjitsu is hit, then send them all at once.

PS: They should do this for Swiftcast too - another ability that doesn't do anything by itself but modify the ability following it.

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i thought the exact same thing, its not like it would be difficult to do either, but yet SE in their brilliant wisdom cant come up with this?

I wiped my T9 group because of a lagged mudra yesterday.

I was trying to cast Huton pre pull, but apparently, it went to Hyoton, and pulled Nael from across the arena.

just sayin

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mikm55pAet0&t=12s

yep

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Seriously, my mudras did literally the same when that happened to me, I was shocked that I wasn't usually experiencing animation lock but just... lag.

As for YoshiP's dismissive response during the latest Live Letter, I'm sorry if I'm being blunt but I found it a little bit insulting. They can do better than that. It's their job, not ours to deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mikm55pAet0&t=12s

yep

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Gosh, the ones you do in the beginning aren't even that fast for me. Mine are even more sluggish.

My mudra lag has been much worse since 2.45 was released. Has this been a thing for others?

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Originally Posted by Velhart

My mudra lag has been much worse since 2.45 was released. Has this been a thing for others?

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I can't say it's been an overall issues since 2.45. But when it DOES lag, it's god awful.

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Originally Posted by ShaolinMike

I can't say it's been an overall issues since 2.45. But when it DOES lag, it's god awful.

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For me at least it has been more of a pain than usual, especially in raids. Use to be something that happened only once in a while for me. Nothing on my end has changed.

I've been having lots of fun with this. Sometimes its so bad (like in ST or large fates) Raitons animation actually starts going off when I actually inputted Huton, as if it just sorta overlooked my last mudra for a few seconds. Sometimes it catches on and casts the correct thing, other times I think perhaps I messed up and hit the last mudra again only to get a rabbit. Rather frustrating that they took the time to nerf ninja but not fix the most glaring issue with the class.

I'd just like a system in place so that everything goes at the same speed, its really annoying when sometimes they are baby smooth, then the next mudra they are super slow. Messes with the rhythm of things.

Ran into this myself. Each Mudra was literally 1 GCD. Changed around a bunch of stuff to try and pinpoint the issue, since I haven't heard of anyone's delay being that bad.

Things I tried

- Different Video Cards (Graphic Delay?)
- Changing system power profiles (System Delay)
- Changing Computers (system/driver issues)
- lowering graphic settings and frame rate settings (again, maybe graphical delay)

I was so confused, because my ping to the NA server is 30 ms and I don't have issues dodging etc and this really looked like a strictly "input delay" to the server.

What I found was that the Packet Monitoring through my network firewall was doing something to the packets each time it verified them going out. I'm not great with networking, but I think it messed up their order after the verification, causing them to have to be sent again, up to the point where SE recognizes it on their end and then send their input back. (sometimes the delay is worse/better?)

By giving FFXIV direct access through my firewall without packet verification, now I have the normal 0.5s Mudras and can fit them all between the GCD.


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I'd bet this is actually an issue with all skills (Hallowed Ground, Bennediction, Tank Buff CD's going off but tank still taking huge damage)

Anything that goes out and requires verification before SE reply's with the changes.

I think that the NIN mudras make it so noticeable because it requires so much verification compared to other skills.

i.e.
Ten -> eTn (nope) neT (nope) Ten (Yes) <- Shuriken
Chi -> ihC (nope) -> Chi (Yes) -> Ten + Chi? (Yes) <- Raiton

A simple balance change that would make mudra lag more bearable would be to "refund" some of the cooldown upon a failed jutsu, e.g. if we get bunny and we don't use it, reduce the cooldown for the next Ninjutsu by 5 or 10 seconds. That way we don't get punished so hard (e.g. 20 seconds without Huton is disastrous) for something that's out of our control.

It definitely is annoying having this mudra lag. Sometimes i can do really nice damage. Other times it's... not as good D:

Looking at Mudra use, a thought strikes me.
Wouldn't it work if Mudra didn't share cooldowns, but instead had individual, very short cooldowns? No Ninjutsu seems to involve two repeating Mudra, so something like a one second cooldown (keeping the half second cast time) on each individual Mudra? It could allow people with even poor connections to button spam one Mudra, start its single cooldown, have a half-second grace period to hit the next one, it casts, half a second to move to the third, and then cast the Ninjutsu. Even with a Kassatsu rush, the Mudra being down for one second in theory should get back by the time the next chain is beginning.

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Originally Posted by KikoriL

Looking at Mudra use, a thought strikes me.
Wouldn't it work if Mudra didn't share cooldowns, but instead had individual, very short cooldowns? No Ninjutsu seems to involve two repeating Mudra, so something like a one second cooldown (keeping the half second cast time) on each individual Mudra? It could allow people with even poor connections to button spam one Mudra, start its single cooldown, have a half-second grace period to hit the next one, it casts, half a second to move to the third, and then cast the Ninjutsu. Even with a Kassatsu rush, the Mudra being down for one second in theory should get back by the time the next chain is beginning.

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If they did that, they would be shooting themselves in the food if they wanted to add more mudras that did involve 2 of the same button.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

If they did that, they would be shooting themselves in the foot if they wanted to add more mudra that did involve 2 of the same button.

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If, then. It's a suggestion for what's out now. If they wanted to add more Ninjutsu, then a fourth Mudra would be another alternative anyway.

Completely random and I don't know if this will work for everyone but hit your Mudras to the beat of "Hot, Cross, Buns". It works amazing for me xD The Mudras flow nicely, outside and in duties :3

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Originally Posted by Ephier

No it does not. I always use WTFast. Tried about a good 30 combinations of chained servers and single servers. None improve the issue.

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Well it does for me, its an extremely noticeable difference. Your mileage will vary I guess.

Hi guys!
Im a ''main'' ninja playing on PS3, and something bother me.
Can ninja be good on PS3 too? Or its harder or even impossible?
Some people told me that PS3 punish really hard ninja and his mudra... I don't know what to do, I have poetics but wonder if continue ninja ora change class for my console :\
Help! ;_;
PS: Sry if I failed thread xD

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Originally Posted by KuroyamiYuki

Hi guys!
Im a ''main'' ninja playing on PS3, and something bother me.
Can ninja be good on PS3 too? Or its harder or even impossible?
Some people told me that PS3 punish really hard ninja and his mudra... I don't know what to do, I have poetics but wonder if continue ninja ora change class for my console :\
Help! ;_;
PS: Sry if I failed thread xD

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I don't play on PS3 but I can tell you that while it does gimp you in some ways anyone who tells you that playing on a PS3 won't allow you play a job well is full of it. Plenty of people can do well on PS3. If you like Ninja, stick with it.

And if you dont want to be engaged on the top End Game content (as for now, bahamuth T10-13) then you don't have to worry much, you can handle some lag and still have fun.

As i'm not in PS3, i can't tell how it's going in end game.

Another thing people should try is to bypass Nagle's Algorithm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagle's_algorithm - Explanation of what it is and how it effects online gaming.

It does require editing the Registry so use at your own risk. (the steps for it are really easy to do)

Another option may be to enable User Datagram Protocol for FFXIV (I haven't even attempted this yet so not sure how it would works)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_Datagram_Protocol

But if you have a low latency/low packet loss connection to any of your local servers I can see how that would be beneficial to waiting on packet verification.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Another thing people should try is to bypass Nagle's Algorithm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagle's_algorithm - Explanation of what it is and how it effects online gaming.

It does require editing the Registry so use at your own risk. (the steps for it are really easy to do)

Another option may be to enable User Datagram Protocol for FFXIV (I haven't even attempted this yet so not sure how it would works)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_Datagram_Protocol

But if you have a low latency/low packet loss connection to any of your local servers I can see how that would be beneficial to waiting on packet verification.

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That don't work and let me explain why. When you are disabling nagle's algorithm, you are allowing more smaller packets to go through instead of one big one, the way they have their servers set up, it can only accept so many packets so quickly. Real world example, only so many cars can fit in the tunnel before the tunnel is full. You may experience DECREASED performance with Nagle off, rather than on, I have tested this multiple times.

As for messing with UDP, I do not think that will have any effect on the game as it is a TCP based game, not UDP.

Wouldn't more smaller packets fill the same volume of the tunnel?
They just wouldn't have to wait for the bus to be full. They'd just take their Smart Car?

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I'll have to try it but there are these UDP Ports: 55296 - 55551 for FFXIV: ARR which might be worth prioritizing for QoS

I doubt the Mudra commands send enough packet data to be efficient through TCP which may be why they have both UDP and TCP available.

So does this have a big impact on NIN in end game? I'm really wanting to play one but if it's being held back with these issues...I would rather roll something else more useful.

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Originally Posted by Duskmourne

So does this have a big impact on NIN in end game? I'm really wanting to play one but if it's being held back with these issues...I would rather roll something else more useful.

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I have mudra lag and can do decent enough dps. Sadly, you get used to it.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Wouldn't more smaller packets fill the same volume of the tunnel?
They just wouldn't have to wait for the bus to be full. They'd just take their Smart Car?

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I think just based on the header they would take up more total space than a single packet including the data from all the sub packets. Also there's processing overhead for each packet so as you increase the ratio of packets to data the amount of time spent on processing overhead would go up.

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Originally Posted by Duskmourne

So does this have a big impact on NIN in end game? I'm really wanting to play one but if it's being held back with these issues...I would rather roll something else more useful.

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I do about 620 dps on a dummy. In a dummy-like fight (ie T11) I drop down to around 590 due to FCoB lag. It's not enough to make or break the fight, but it is a noticeable drop. I imagine if I wasn't using a vpn I'd probably drop another 20-30 dps again.

I sort of got used to seeing my Ninjutsu not being finalized to what I want it to be when I put in my inputs.

But when I see "Cannot execute at this time.", I lose my mind.

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Originally Posted by Duskmourne

So does this have a big impact on NIN in end game? I'm really wanting to play one but if it's being held back with these issues...I would rather roll something else more useful.

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If you were looking to get max efficiency out of your NIN, a VPN (depending on where you are) is a major requirement. It is miserable to deal with mudra in Coils if I do not have one. I payed 120 days worth, but if mudra is not fixed or reworked before my time expires on my VPN, I am going to switch to Machinist (assuming it does not use a mudra like system).

VPN is useful

While useful, VPN still does not cure the issue, but does alleviate it some what. After finding videos of players performing flawless mudra's I became annoyed with the class as I am not able to do that. Even people with low ping (50-) report they have some delay with the issue, so it cannot be entirely ping related.

Bump for great justice. Please don't forget about this SE.

I hope this is at least fixed with the expansion. It's VERY frustrating when mudra's keep failing.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

While useful, VPN still does not cure the issue, but does alleviate it some what. After finding videos of players performing flawless mudra's I became annoyed with the class as I am not able to do that. Even people with low ping (50-) report they have some delay with the issue, so it cannot be entirely ping related.

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Yeah, it's so strange. I'm 4 hours from the Montreal Server, I have a 20ms Ping and my Mudra's are incredibly slow without a VPN. On top of that, as instantaneous as they are in the open world with a VPN, you step into FCOB and they are shit regardless.

It's not even due to my ISP, since I've traced the route with and without VPN and it follows almost the exact same path.

I doubt it's anything they can fix for all users, so they really just need to redesign how the Mudras work. Dumb idea is dumb.

Finally setup my forum account just to post in this thread. This needs to get fixed. I love the job, I did a Zodiac weapon for it, but mudras definitely need a fix.

The easiest way to fix the mudra lag is to get rid of them all together. Just give us the end skills tied to them and add the mudra animations to the skills to balance out time gained. I love playing nin, and don't usually have the lag issues, but it's a huge pain in the ass when it shows up. The whole little meta game of mudra input just seems unnecessary to me.

If it hasn't been said yet (too lazy to read the rest of the thread), making the Ninjutsu action server-based while making the Mudras client-based (they could build-in their own cooldown timer of .5 or 1 second per Mudra to keep people from spoofing the inputs for instant casts), we'd be fine, done and done. The problem is this would undermine their whole server-based programming, so I won't hold my breath and just keep an eye on my inputs, frustrating when I get a ping mid-cast and end up using Hyoton instead of Suiton >.>

I think the point is, we as players should NOT have to use another program to make a class playable. I am at around 30-40 ms on NA-Leviathan and even still my mudra are slow and clunky. Occasionally I get a combo off that is flawless in terms of latency and it feels great! Now if only all of them were that way...

Hopefully the DEVs give us an update. SOMETHING needs to be done. NIN is literally the only job that suffers majorly from latency issues. Not to mention, some instances are worse than others for this case...

VPNs hardly help, and we should not need assistance from a third party to play a job properly. Every other modern MMO on the market knows how to handle client-server interactions, why can't SE?

Just give ninjas a trait "inner focus" or whatever you wanna call it that allows ninjas to weave hand signs while still doing combos, then latency isn't gonna be an issue of you can keep the Dps coming instead of trying to shove a 1.5 second combo in a 2 second recast window.