Why can't we have jobs with this level of depth and customization in FFXIV?

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

"Interesting mechanics already exist."
"XIV is not going to do something that already exists"
"Therefore XIV will not have interesting mechanics."
Fun game.

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So if you played FFXI my question to you is if you feel this way, why Leave FFXI? You came to FFXIV for something new right, so why do you want the same stuff that you left from?

I mean why leave FFXI if you want the same thing, no point in that.

This game hasn't even got a first expansion and yeah it is a fun game.

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Originally Posted by Amberion

Just thought I should point out that FFXI where much more a console type game then FFXIV. Heck, it was even created for the PS2 before they ported it to PC.
Anyway, I'm all for complexity. It's things like that that brings a game to life.

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True, but I think the PS2 era of players were more traditional rpg oriented then the newer era of players. Gaming has changed man, it's a different time. Xbox One, PS4, theres alot more streamlining and casual friendly content instead of hours of theorycrafting required to kill 1 mob. Those days are over IMO. I mean you can still do it, but for the most part its not necessary.

I too want complexity but I don't want the old school way of doing it - where 90% of the "variety" was garbage and the 10% was worth delving into. The way the system is setup now its basically we have the 10% built-in and the 90% doesn't even exist - which is a much more streamline and fluent combat system, which makes for easier balancing. Now it just boils down to players an understanding there rotations and knowing the battle.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

They actually made Ranger a desired job again? I still remember the great Ranger nerf that led most of the Ranger population to bury their bows/xbows/guns.

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Yes pretty much, the majority of players cannot deal with close combat. Ranger x 3 is what they use mostly for new BCNM Ark Angels. And rangers are being used on some of the delve endgame content. Pretty much the set up would be for 6 person: Monk x 2, Whm, Brd, Sch, and the last spot will often goes to either Geomancer, Corsair, Dragoon, Warrior, Samurai or Dark Knight. Some delve set up would be: Paladin, Ranger x 2, Bard, Whm, and Sch. Or they would go with: Sam, War, Bard, Whm, Sch, and Cor (or Sam x 2). As you can see, FFXI endgame cannot win, will not even attempt to do ANY content without their bard and white mage, period - end of story.

Monk, Whm, Bard, Sam, Pld, Sch, Ranger are the top jobs to play and everyone play these days. The other jobs are not used that much on most end game stuffs. Certain jobs are deemed for farming and solo purpose only.

FFXIV will never be FFXI because it would render FFXI obsolete. There's a reason those servers are still live...so people who enjoy complexity can play the game. FFXIV is a game for people who enjoy simplicity. It's not and will never be FFXI-2.

It amazese how many people complain "XI had this, why doesn't XIV?" and yet don't have the common sense to just go play XI. Hell the game is there to be played, seriously, go play it.

I approve of any thread asking for more depth to combat. We've had various requests of the same category for some time now.

I think that FFXIV being different then FFXI is fine.

FFXI is having a 1 free week for anyone who has ever had a FFXI account from Wed 10-17th and I think you can download the newest expansion SoA for free to try out. You could actually try that game out again if you and see if it was nostalgia or not.

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Originally Posted by DenariusJay

True, but I think the PS2 era of players were more traditional rpg oriented then the newer era of players. Gaming has changed man, it's a different time. Xbox One, PS4, theres alot more streamlining and casual friendly content instead of hours of theorycrafting required to kill 1 mob. Those days are over IMO. I mean you can still do it, but for the most part its not necessary.

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It's sad really. Japanese game companies wonder why they do badly internationally. They try to imitate western games, yet don't seem to realize that they did as good as they did, at least here in the west, was because they where different.

Of course, this is towards single player games.

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So if you played FFXI my question to you is if you feel this way, why Leave FFXI? You came to FFXIV for something new right, so why do you want the same stuff that you left from?

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You do know they just want added complexity right? That FFXI was only used as an example as they know that system best.

Asking for complexity isn't some code for wanting FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

I approve of any thread asking for more depth to combat. We've had various requests of the same category for some time now.

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It really baffles me that people think this game is too simple.... This game is "easy to pick up" and yet has its own complex system to master. FFXI melee is quite simple, pretty much auto attack, wait for 100 TP and cycle your job abilities with a few macros. That is it, no dance around, no avoiding anything much, you auto attack and hit abilities. Support and healing job maybe a bit more work and gear swap macro makes things more complex (a big waste of time). The amount of spells there for mage jobs is absurd... People think "simplicity" is bad... The hardest thing to do is to create a simple to pick up and play game but has enough complexity to master.

I think FF14 did a great job in achieving its goal to appeal to most players and yet still retain some depth. We do not need FFXI garbage complex syndrome to invade this game. And NO SUPPORT JOB EVER!!! PERIOD. END OF STORY. Unless your idea of gaming is "we cannot clear content without XYZ support jobs". Where players refuse to do endgame events if there is no "stun lock" job (aka Stun Scholar). In FFXI the new standard is you must have an level 119 weapons and gear to clear level 119 content where you need to get those gears in the first place, lol, so you need 119 gears but you cannot participate in the said content because you don't have level 119 gears.

If FF14 will turn into the absolute hot mess of FFXI "complex spaghetti code" where even the new team is having a hard time fixing the current game, people will abandon any Duty Finder events in droves the minute they see "support job VIP Diva Primadonna" is not in their party (I am looking at you "FFXI Bard"). And then players start demanding that if you play support then you MUST have top of the line weapon, or don't even bother coming and playing on "daily duty roulette" anything.

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Originally Posted by Velox

FFXIV will never be FFXI because it would render FFXI obsolete. There's a reason those servers are still live...so people who enjoy complexity can play the game. FFXIV is a game for people who enjoy simplicity. It's not and will never be FFXI-2.

It amazese how many people complain "XI had this, why doesn't XIV?" and yet don't have the common sense to just go play XI. Hell the game is there to be played, seriously, go play it.

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I think you mistake what's being said as "make this game XI-2" and not seeing the intended meaning. This topic is less "XI had this, why doesn't XIV?" and more "XIV has jobs with very simple mechanics, here's an example of what a future class/job could be similar to."

What's wrong with looking to SE's past works and examining ideas that worked that could be altered (probably heavily so it isn't super complex and it won't break the game) and implemented in some way into XIV:ARR (a game that is still growing in many ways).

It's unlikely the combat system will ever change, but who's to say we can't have at least one class/job work with at least some more complexity than what we already have?

And people left XI for various reasons: to find a new experience, dwindling server populations, friends quitting, unable to sink several hours a day into the game because of real life, not liking the new expansions, falling too far behind and are unwilling to catch up, etc. among a slew of others reasons. Just generalizing it into "people who enjoy complexity can play [FFXI]. FFXIV is a game for people who enjoy simplicity." just doesn't work. Hardened FFXI players certainly aren't the target audience, they never were for ARR. But it doesn't mean more complex mechanics can be implemented in some way in the future.

Expansions, updates, new jobs... There's a lot in store for this game, it's not unreasonable to expect the game to grow even slightly more complex as time goes on and new content is implemented.

The problem is that the combat in FFXIV is too speedy for a job like PUP to work like it does in XI. Here a PUP can certainly exist, but it's going to be a far cry from the XI version, just like all the other jobs here that are there. XIV is designed for simplicity and speed. XI was designed for strategy in a slower paced game during earlier times. I don't think they are going to make things more complex because at the end of the day you're still going to be spamming a button to attack, and dodging AoE until something is dead. I'm pretty sure SE is content with that gameplay style, coming from their own mouths.

All I can say is, maybe next go round in a future Final Fantasy Whatever Online MMORPG. They've done the hardcore thing. They're doing the softcore thing. Somewhere in the middle of those for the next game might hit all the right spots for everyone to enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by File2ish

This topic is less "XI had this, why doesn't XIV?" and more "XIV has jobs with very simple mechanics, here's an example of what a future class/job could be similar to."What's wrong with looking to SE's past works and examining ideas that worked that could be altered (probably heavily so it isn't super complex and it won't break the game) and implemented in some way into XIV:ARR (a game that is still growing in many ways). It's unlikely the combat system will ever change, but who's to say we can't have at least one class/job work with at least some more complexity than what we already have? .

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But there is nothing remotely "simple" about FF14 game mechanic. Yes some stuffs are somewhat scripted in a way that you need "certain roles" in your party set up, mostly for 4 people duty finder to make it easier for everyone to clear contents. FF14 Jobs has more than enough rotation buttons, far more than FFXI set up, and far far far more complex for certain jobs to be able to play properly. There is nothing complex about FFXI, you swap gears with your macro when your perform certain stuffs, but you mainly spam "weapon skills" at 100 TP, and maybe a few job abilities, like 6-8 buttons macro at most for melee. Not sure where "FFXI is more complex" opinion is coming from.

Pet jobs are the BANE of FFXI existence, over 11 years in the making and the old team (and the new team) has no clue on how to solve this "complex" riddles. Puppetmaster was absolute trash job for years and years with no remedy in fixing the pet AI till recently, half baked solutions at best. Beastmaster was given a fix in Abysea era then the team could not evolve past that. Summoner in FFXI is a hot tranny mess, it was somewhat decent during Abysea era, and now it languishing and in dire need of revision.

FF14's complexity is only skin deep. In its current state, it delivers beautiful graphics, an outstanding soundtrack, Final Fantasy nostalgia, somewhat entertaining storylines, and a very fun crafting system. That is about it.

I am firm believer in systems are that simple, easy to understand yet hard to master. However, the only thing that requires any significant challenge are things like telegraphs and boss mechanics. The buck stops there and that WILL be an issue for the long term health of the game.

Yes, FFXI is an older MMO with some arcane mechanics and awkward functionality. It also is bloated with content that is no longer worthwhile. However, the strength of the game is in its job and combat systems. Once again, simple, easy to understand yet hard to master. A job was abstracted via weapon skills, spell skills, stat bonuses, and abilities both active and passive. On top of that, the job system added quite a bit of complexity as it would open up abilities, spells, and stat bonuses that were not available to your main job. Combat required more than memorization. It required significant knowledge of your job and your encounters. Things like crowd control and enfeebles were vital to combat success.

Here, a job is abstracted via a single weapon and a set of abilities both active and passive. You cannot cross-class passives and the available cross-class skills provide neither flavor or interest to the system. Everyone has almost the same number of abilities. Everyone has the same number of job abilities. There is no flavor. There is no depth.

Yes, the FFXI job system had its flaws. Balance across its NUMEROUS jobs was always an issue. However, it made up for it in an amazing amount of flavor, depth, and theorycrafting.

I pity anyone who finds the current job system fulfilling. I pity anyone that finds the current state of the hunt system fulfilling. I pity anyone that finds the current state of FF14 amazingly deep.

There is a reason why these threads are becoming more and more regular. Yoshida and Co. did an amazing job hooking us, but now they got to hold our interest. Grinding tomes, grinding instances, grinding fates, grinding hunts... none of these are interesting and fulfilling outside the pixelcrack that they reward.

I will be looking very hard at the expansion. I think Yoshida and Co. are amazingly talented, especially considering they maintained the original 1.0 release while building 2.0 - that can never be understated or fully appreciated just how much work that required. However, anyone fighting these valid criticisms of the game's current state is a fool. Final Fantasy means a lot to all of us and want to be here. I think its fair that we are pointing out that while the game outshines FFXI on numerous fronts, it pales in other important areas.

The training wheels so to speak will need to come off soon, otherwise the future of FF14 will not be as bright as its present.

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Originally Posted by Valcro

XI was designed for strategy in a slower paced game during earlier times.

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People keep saying stuff like this but what exactly made FFXI more strategic than how FFXIV is? Seriously? People keep really overrating the depth and complexity of FFXI's battle system when most of it was far simpler than what we have now in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by rwyan

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I made my original post before you wrote all of that, and interestingly, it still applies. "People keep really overrating the depth and complexity of FFXI's battle system when most of it was far simpler than what we have now in FFXIV." It's kind of ridiculous that you argue that the only thing you need in FFXIV is to memorize the combat, but FFXI "required significant knowledge of your job" (as if that wasn't needed in FFXIV) "and your encounters" (so memorize them). What a load of bull.

The game(2.0) has only been around for a year and whose combat is VERY fast. You won't have the luxury of waiting till its your turn while choosing which attack you wanna use.

Still, I would love more pet comands and gear/materia with special abilities.

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Originally Posted by Alipoprocks

Because this is XIV, not XI. Sorry.

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It's not WoW either but alas.

Perhaps if people stop using XI (or 1.x) as example for suggestions they wouldn't be ignored or refused. If that Miqo'te nose thread didn't pretty much ask to turn Miqo'te into Mithra the Com. Rep. response would have been different. It is important how you present your suggestion, specially when our devs are making sure this game looks and feels different from XI (or 1.x).

Even after reading the red bold words in the original post I still read "XI has this, why can't we have this?".

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

It really baffles me that people think this game is too simple.... This game is "easy to pick up" and yet has its own complex system to master. FFXI melee is quite simple, pretty much auto attack, wait for 100 TP and cycle your job abilities with a few macros. That is it, no dance around, no avoiding anything much, you auto attack and hit abilities. Support and healing job maybe a bit more work and gear swap macro makes things more complex (a big waste of time). The amount of spells there for mage jobs is absurd... People think "simplicity" is bad... The hardest thing to do is to create a simple to pick up and play game but has enough complexity to master.

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It's not that they can't make interesting jobs, but at end game things are about trying to create an interesting team experience. I love the complexity of the monk. However, all of the monk's complexity doesn't do anything to make teamwork interesting. Also, just because an approach didn't work in some other game doesn't mean that developers should throw their collective hands in the air and give up on finding different solutions. There is more than one way to cook an egg, and the same applies to building combat systems.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

But there is nothing remotely "simple" about FF14 game mechanic. Yes some stuffs are somewhat scripted in a way that you need "certain roles" in your party set up, mostly for 4 people duty finder to make it easier for everyone to clear contents.

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By simple, I'm referring to the rotations. 1-2-3-A-B-C,repeat + weave other stuff in if possible. Fast paced, little time to think before GCD is ready for the next ability.

XI was simple as well. Buffs (if applicable to the job), Auto attack -> WS (preferably to skillchain with others) or cast strongest spell of the enemy mob's weakness. + Depending on skillchain, cast specific element for magic burst damage. Slow paced, time to decide best course of action regarding skills and magic.

Both of them are, in a word: Simple. (And yes, that was very abbreviated and didn't detail every single mechanic of either).

I'm very well aware of how XIV:ARR works, and how XI works. The "complexity" of XI is more along the strategies involved in gameplay and ability use, not the battle mechanics themselves. In the end neither XI, XIV 1.XX, nor XIV:ARR are very "complex". XI and 1.XX had more complicated mechanics such as elemental attributes that actually mattered, for instance. And XI had skills and spells up up the wazoo which gave a more complicated feel, if only because of choice (trust me, I mained Red Mage). Whereas ARR has more of a scripted approach (as you said) and are almost required to dodge. The current jobs in ARR, however, feel even more simple than the auto attacking-weapon skilling of XI.

Why not have a DPS job that works at least somewhat differently that what we have already? Not asking for anything like SMN, PUP, or BST from XI. Nor for Red Mage as it was in XI with it's insane list of spells; All of those would need a ton of editing, and the pet jobs would probably end up as Summoner did in ARR (small pet, player character does most of the work and damage) in order to work in ARR's battle system.

I'm not saying we should have the elemental attributes or anything of the like that we currently don't have or need (elements, skillchains, etc. would likely break the game as it stands). Nor am I saying the battle system should slow down in any way. But do we need to stick to rotations for all new jobs? Will tanks and DPS be forever locked to the same rotations as the level cap eventually gets raised? Can we get something more out of the system for another job fitting within the 3 roles we have?

Perhaps we can, Ninja might be the first job that shows "complexity" in comparison to say DRG and MNK. They said it will have mudras, right? Let's see how they work and how it pans out. ARR's mechanics definitely don't work for the auto-attacking being a main source of damage output, which is why we have rotations for skills. It's unavoidable to have skills being our main source of damage output. How will mudras change the gameplay style (if they do)? Maybe Ninja won't have a set 1-2-3-A-B-C repeat rotation like DRG and MNK that dictates the amount of potency an attack has (or for monk's case positional + being unable to use skills outside of a stance). Maybe it will have multiple stance you set manually or by using specific mudras? Or perhaps they found another way to change it up. It would be a welcome change for some, and perhaps a big turn off for others.

In the end: We don't want anything overly complex. Merely, I'm saying perhaps something to change it up a bit.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

But there is nothing remotely "simple" about FF14 game mechanic. Yes some stuffs are somewhat scripted in a way that you need "certain roles" in your party set up, mostly for 4 people duty finder to make it easier for everyone to clear contents. FF14 Jobs has more than enough rotation buttons, far more than FFXI set up, and far far far more complex for certain jobs to be able to play properly. There is nothing complex about FFXI, you swap gears with your macro when your perform certain stuffs, but you mainly spam "weapon skills" at 100 TP, and maybe a few job abilities, like 6-8 buttons macro at most for melee. Not sure where "FFXI is more complex" opinion is coming from.

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And you updated while I was typing =p

Just saying: rotation + amount of buttons available =/= complexity. FFXI had multiple jobs that weren't just sit and wait for TP and had reactionary gameplay rather than static. It offers the same complexity as ARR, but in different ways.

Thief: Sneak Attack Trick Attack. Position mattered in order to help the tank hold hate.

Dancer (my other main job): Steps use a small amount of TP to place a debuff, regain TP with reverse flourish from the stacks steps gave. Also healing with TP, party endrain/enaspir/enhaste buff depending on situation, etc.

Blue Mage: Wide variety of spells ranging from buffs to heals to attacks to debuffs.

Ranger: Range you shoot your bow/gun/crossbow from actually effected how much damage you do. Knowing when a good time to use barrage and other skills was, etc.

Corsair: Roll dice for effects.

Ninja: Proper use and timing of Utsusemi Ichi and Ni so you don't die (because Ninja tank) and use of other Ninjutsu for specific types of debuffs.

Scholar: Flipping between black and white magic stances when necessary (yes, in party situations as well).

I daresay there could be more complexity in XI than there is in ARR.

I don't understand why players seem to think suggestions for depth and flavor in the job system equate to a FFXI makeover for FFXIV? No one is asking for the combat pace to be slowed down. There are plenty of ways they could deepen the current systems through itemization, some sort of job alternate advancement, or something else all together. Just because players will meta the system (see Hunts) doesn't mean choices and depth are bad. Balance is always an issue when choices are at play and has always been the case with every other MMO with a substantial amount of player choice. However, it is a POOR excuse as to not try and give the class/job systems a shot of steroids.

Example:
* Currently, each class can be viewed as some form of combat specialist. Gladiators are the masters for sword and shield. Rogues will be the masters of dual daggers. Etc...
* What if jobs and classes were completely independent of one another?
* What if jobs had their own set of self-contained abilities and passives that didn't rely so much on a class, but provided some complimentary benefit whatever class has its stone equipped?
* Imagine the Paladin job with abilities and passives that emphasized maintaining enmity, group enhancements, damage mitigation all with the flavor of a WHM wielding holy knight.
* If jobs and classes were independent, you could theoretically equip the Paladin job stone with most any class. Some combinations would be worthless... that is okay, others would be exceptionally fun, but most importantly, if done right, each combination would have some place in the game. That would be flavorful.
* Imagine bards equipped with bows, dual daggers, scepters, etc...
* Some jobs would have more inherit flexibility... once again flavor.
* Stats would be even more important as it would be a case of tweaking your allocation, your gear to best suit your class and your job.
* The armory system would be restored as some jobs could theoretically be very effective with multiple weapons

Of course, the usuals will "snip" and cry that something like this would lead to balance issues. But, I kind of would like theorycrafting to be bit more integral to the job/class systems. It is what kept me playing FFXI for so long. Balance issues sucked, but with an active dev team, the game would constantly move forward. As such, for a system like the above described, it would be OKAY for certain job/class combinations to be odd and off-putting. That or the dev team could limit certain combos if they didn't want players to accidently role with a "gimped" combo.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

It's not WoW either but alas.

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Indeed. And unlike FFXI and WoW, FFXIV doesn't have 10(ish) years of development (yet. Here's hoping it does).

"Oh, but they should have learned from the past" You think they haven't? They have more access to what people do in the background of a game than any player ever will. All the "I think"s and "but all my friends" are not really good indicators of what the entire playerbase is doing.

The game is moving forward. What we have right now is the basic framework for the future, but it is not what the game will look like even one year from now (keeping in mind that expansions are often used as an opportunity to make sweeping changes to mechanics and classes).

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Originally Posted by Zumi

I think that FFXIV being different then FFXI is fine.

FFXI is having a 1 free week for anyone who has ever had a FFXI account from Wed 10-17th and I think you can download the newest expansion SoA for free to try out. You could actually try that game out again if you and see if it was nostalgia or not.

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Originally Posted by HeroSamson

So if you played FFXI my question to you is if you feel this way, why Leave FFXI? You came to FFXIV for something new right, so why do you want the same stuff that you left from?

I mean why leave FFXI if you want the same thing, no point in that.

This game hasn't even got a first expansion and yeah it is a fun game.

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Seriously, stop saying this... FFXI bears no resemblance to what it was like in its prime and is now running similar mechanics to what FFXIV is using. This is why fans of FFXI are not playing FFXI. I personally, would be over there right now if Seekers of Adoulin hadn't destroyed the already wrecked game in the aftermath of abyssea. Besides, theres no reason why good concepts from FFXI can't come over as long as they work in the environment here.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

I didn't realize ARR was released for 4 years already. Boy, how time flies!

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It only seems like a couple aof weeks ago that they celebrated 1 year!

Some cant get over that FFXIV ARR is a totally different game to FFXIV 1.x.

On topic, it is very hard to have deeply complex jobs/classes without a) making them a necessity and b) unwanted for most content. Something FFXI failed badly on. So many jobs, and so many of them not wanted compared to a small number of mandatory jobs, eg BRD and stun SCH.

Also, as happened even with FFXI, more depth came with expansions. So see what 3.0 brings. Yoshi stated prior to the expac they will not be doing anything really different or new frmo the standard design, that may change with the xpac.

Well to be fair, FFXI does have a few good battle systems, namely Voidwatch, which is FAR more superior that this absolute mess of The Hunt from FF14. I see no reasons why Yoshi cannot "steal" as many great stuffs from FF11 and implement it here with some tweakings. Lord knows, FF11 is copying a boatload of FF14's features in their game now, which is a welcome change. The old FFXI is trash, absolute garbage of a game, so glad it is no longer exist. The "new" FFXI did amazing job, Seeker of Adoulin was a hot mess when it launched, but the new team did fantastic job in the past one year alone and changed FFXI for the better. So many great features added to make FFXI far more enjoyable and accessible, and yet still obliterate all noobies who try to brute force tank and spank SoA endgame contents.

The new team is hard at work to balance other support jobs but I understand it takes time to untangle the absolute mess of spaghetti code and crappy ideas from "old school FFXI". They added so many new features to Red Mage, Corsair and Geomancer - though they need to work harder on this to replace people's opinion "we cannot win if we don't have Bard in our group" mentality. Give it another year and I would think FFXI will be completely modernized up to par to FF14. The amount of contents they add every month is very good for a game that is 11 years old. Jobs balance still a big issue there - I realize it is not easy to balance over 20 jobs.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

It only seems like a couple aof weeks ago that they celebrated 1 year!

Some cant get over that FFXIV ARR is a totally different game to FFXIV 1.x.

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You do realize majority of ARR's systems originated in 1.0-1.22..right? The only "difference" is how it's impelemented in certain areas, otherwise no, it's not totally different - if you touched any of the jobs that isn't ACN/SMN/SCH, you're playing something that was created and existed up to 4 years ago. Even ACN was already in the game but not usable for players.

Them streamlining certain content doesn't mean it's "compeletly different", a lot of the lore is still very much the same, just reformatted to fit the "5 years later".

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

Well to be fair, FFXI does have a few good battle systems, namely Voidwatch, which is FAR more superior that this absolute mess of The Hunt from FF14. I see no reasons why Yoshi cannot "steal" as many great stuffs from FF11 and implement it here with some tweakings. Lord knows, FF11 is copying a boatload of FF14's features in their game now, which is a welcome change. The old FFXI is trash, absolute garbage of a game, so glad it is no longer exist. The "new" FFXI did amazing job, Seeker of Adoulin was a hot mess when it launched, but the new team did fantastic job in the past one year alone and changed FFXI for the better. So many great features added to make FFXI far more enjoyable and accessible, and yet still obliterate all noobies who try to brute force tank and spank SoA endgame contents.

The new team is hard at work to balance other support jobs but I understand it takes time to untangle the absolute mess of spaghetti code and crappy ideas from "old school FFXI". They added so many new features to Red Mage, Corsair and Geomancer - though they need to work harder on this to replace people's opinion "we cannot win if we don't have Bard in our group" mentality. Give it another year and I would think FFXI will be completely modernized up to par to FF14. The amount of contents they add every month is very good for a game that is 11 years old. Jobs balance still a big issue there - I realize it is not easy to balance over 20 jobs.

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Luvbunny, I may have said this before but you were always playing the wrong game with xi (I argued with you on the ffxi forums a few times). FFXI was a certain type of game, and it did what it did well... VERY well. Changing that with abyssea and later on SoA was an affront to people who loved what xi was trying to do in the first place. It was NOT a garbage game it was one of the few mmos that captured the dream mmorpgs were originally chasing. I have to accept that same factor about ffxiv, that it was designed with a different purpose in mind and you should have been accepting of that in ffxi (I have no idea why you stuck around it when you hated its core designs). I accept that ffxiv has a different goal from what ffxi had, but I think there is room to add some things that would appeal to people like me while still keeping that goal at heart. Stop insulting mah game >.>

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Originally Posted by Redemption

Luvbunny, I may have said this before but you were always playing the wrong game with xi (I argued with you on the ffxi forums a few times). FFXI was a certain type of game, and it did what it did well... VERY well. Changing that with abyssea and later on SoA was an affront to people who loved what xi was trying to do in the first place. It was NOT a garbage game it was one of the few mmos that captured the dream mmorpgs were originally chasing.

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LOL - hello again to you :) Well I do not have any "rose colored tinted glass" memory of the grand awesome-sauce that is "old school FFXI". Let me spell it for you in one easy sentence: the reason FFXI community works, because back then everyone and their moms are stuck in a rut in a shitshow that forced you to be nice with each other or you are not progressing at all and solo-ing or "play how you want" aka log and play is an unheard concept. You are stuck in a server with a bunch of people who can't progress AT ALL unless you bite the bullet STFU and play your roles and work together. It's a total gangbuster crap but it works wonderfully in forcing people to work together, thus creating many fond good memories because deep down, we all believe everyone is nice, and we like to do nice things to help each other and share good memories.

Now let's bring back the "Awesome Amazing Ding Ding" that is old school FFXI shall we?:
- You are stuck in party with jobs XYZ, no party, no progress, enjoy your LFP while watching TV for hours unless you are Princess Bard and Red Mage.
- After several hours of waiting and shouting, you now have a party, ragtag combo of whatever jobs, not ideal but hey, you ain't going to complaints after several hours of waiting. So what do you do? You spend as little as 15 mnts to find a camp, or 30 mnts trekking to "dangerous" location where if one member is too dumb to function, you ain't progressing, on the way to the camp.
- OK, so now we are all here, let's have some fun!! Except the area is packed, and mobs are slim picking, competing with other group. Off you go, move to another camp. Add 15-25 minutes of "moving to another area, let's hope y'all have sneak invisible".
- After an hour of playing, your healer is leaving, or your Bard, or your Red Mage. Or god forbid someone leveled up and now the mob is "too low level" for that one person but new camp would be too high-level for most of the members. Crap, back to finding new members.
- Months later, or even a year later, you have one job at 75. Huzzah!! Endgame!!! Yup, start becoming a slave for your "elite" LS members since unless you "perform favors" - you are not going to get that item you so really want, gotta put points, and make sure to help all the "core members" of Linkshell to get their first dip, after all you are just a newbie...
- What's that? You hate grinding? Seriously? Well go play another game, cuz FFXI old school is all about grinding everything till you are too sick to function.
- "Learning Your Job" equates to sit your ass in camping spot chit chat while you do your basic button rotation for months and months. Obviously you will learn something that prepares you to function at endgame, WRONG!!!
- The so called glorious amazing "Chains of Promathia" is nothing but "fetching quest" that last for hours... And you better hope and pray you can make a static, or you have very little hope progressing at all. Start practicing at throwing your control at something and channelling your nerd rage at your cat.
- There is no such thing as "customization" with sub jobs. Deal with it. Please don't entertain your entire party with Pld/Whm, Whm/Pld, Dark/Whm, War/Blm, or any other "creative" ideas - your server will not put up with your silly ideas. You subs XYZ, end of story.
- You better love WAITING, because everything takes a long time for no other purpose than adding more time sink. Yup, making you do idiotic nonsensical stuffs for no other than "extending gameplay" and make you feel you achieve something by waiting 10 minutes to ride a boat.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

It's a total gangbuster crap but it works wonderfully in forcing people to work together, thus creating many fond good memories because deep down, we all believe everyone is nice, and we like to do nice things to help each other and share good memories.

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So you;re implying hat XI is idealistic and XIV is cynical?

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

You do realize majority of ARR's systems originated in 1.0-1.22..right? The only "difference" is how it's impelemented in certain areas, otherwise no, it's not totally different - if you touched any of the jobs that isn't ACN/SMN/SCH, you're playing something that was created and existed up to 4 years ago. Even ACN was already in the game but not usable for players.

Them streamlining certain content doesn't mean it's "compeletly different", a lot of the lore is still very much the same, just reformatted to fit the "5 years later".

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I'm glad someone brought up 1.0. 1.0 had far more complexity then 2.0 and onward. 1.0 had what?...64 different kinds of material? that's just one example and I could be wrong on the number.
the point i'm making is the complexity was blamed for 1.0's unpopularity so SE made a hard left turn into simplicity as a model for 2.0 and onward. So I doubt SE will add complexity to this game any time soon. At least not as mandatory.

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Originally Posted by Redemption

Seriously, stop saying this... FFXI bears no resemblance to what it was like in its prime and is now running similar mechanics to what FFXIV is using. This is why fans of FFXI are not playing FFXI. I personally, would be over there right now if Seekers of Adoulin hadn't destroyed the already wrecked game in the aftermath of abyssea. Besides, theres no reason why good concepts from FFXI can't come over as long as they work in the environment here.

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How do you know you wouldn't like current FFXI unless you tried it? It has a bunch of sidegrades that you people keep going on and on about. In FFXI since seekers came out they capped the ilvl at 119 and just keep releasing more and more 119 gear every patch. The game is overflowing with 119 gear giving you this choice about what you get which I know a bunch of people keep posting they want on the FFXIV forums a bunch of gear with the same ilvl.

What Abysea did "Amazing, Awesome, Fantastic, Truly Game Breaking":
- Atmas, customize according to your need. Play with it, collect it, experiment, above all HAVE FUN!
- Endgame galores, how you want to "solve the problem", up to you my friend. Now you get to fight tons of Notorious Monster, from the ones that has timer to the ones you pop with key items.
- OPTIONS! End of Story. Want to evasion tank? Go for it! Want to use your pet to tank, have at it!! Want to use Paladin to tank, enjoy!!
- Small group friendly!! Granted this throw options to the windows when people only wants thief/ninja, blm/brd, whm, blue, ninja and warrior. But hey, now you can just kill stuffs with 3 other people or 5 other people, or an alliance.
- A chance to know your jobs and push it to the limits using Atmas. Blue Mage, Dancer and Thief want to solo? Summoner, Puppetmaster and Beastmaster wants to solo?
- Creative use of your jobs, maximize for minimum time. Warrior Fell Cleave party, Black Mage Mana Burn Party, Blue's Charge Whiskers solo farm. If you know your jobs, and want to experiment, have at it!!

That's just the good part. The bad part of Abyssea is SPEED LEVEL, while it is a great idea, it creates many players who do not bother to learn their jobs and how to play at its fullest potential. Just like everything else, people get lazy, they get to 99, fully merited, but have ZERO ideas on how to play their jobs.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

How do you know you wouldn't like current FFXI unless you tried it? It has a bunch of sidegrades that you people keep going on and on about. In FFXI since seekers came out they capped the ilvl at 119 and just keep releasing more and more 119 gear every patch. The game is overflowing with 119 gear giving you this choice about what you get which I know a bunch of people keep posting they want on the FFXIV forums a bunch of gear with the same ilvl.

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I did try it, I was playing ffxi up until I want to say February of this year. It just was a horribly depressing experience to keep playing, like watching a loved relative dieing to a terminal disease.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

What Abysea did "Amazing, Awesome, Fantastic, Truly Game Breaking":
- Atmas, customize according to your need. Play with it, collect it, experiment, above all HAVE FUN!
- Endgame galores, how you want to "solve the problem", up to you my friend. Now you get to fight tons of Notorious Monster, from the ones that has timer to the ones you pop with key items.
- OPTIONS! End of Story. Want to evasion tank? Go for it! Want to use your pet to tank, have at it!! Want to use Paladin to tank, enjoy!!
- Small group friendly!! Granted this throw options to the windows when people only wants thief/ninja, blm/brd, whm, blue, ninja and warrior. But hey, now you can just kill stuffs with 3 other people or 5 other people, or an alliance.
- A chance to know your jobs and push it to the limits using Atmas. Blue Mage, Dancer and Thief want to solo? Summoner, Puppetmaster and Beastmaster wants to solo?
- Creative use of your jobs, maximize for minimum time. Warrior Fell Cleave party, Black Mage Mana Burn Party, Blue's Charge Whiskers solo farm. If you know your jobs, and want to experiment, have at it!!

That's just the good part. The bad part of Abyssea is SPEED LEVEL, while it is a great idea, it creates many players who do not bother to learn their jobs and how to play at its fullest potential. Just like everything else, people get lazy, they get to 99, fully merited, but have ZERO ideas on how to play their jobs.

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Which is why Seekers is the expansion I blame with completely ruining the game. I detest certain things that Abyssea did but at least what it introduced was interesting to some extent. I felt both made unwanted changes that made ffxi into a different game however, just one was more tolerable than the other.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

So you;re implying hat XI is idealistic and XIV is cynical?

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FFXI is realistic, you must play nice with each other if you want to advance in the game. Be civil, learn how to socialize, and try to be Popular, because just like in real life, the popular kids in high school gets everything while all the emo-nerds get shoved in the corner because they want to be that special snowflakes and do what they want and how they want, so everyone else just have to deal with it.

At least here in FF14, most of the contents are tuned so that everyone can have a good chance at clearing it. Everything is done in a speedy manner, log in, wait a few minutes, play a few things, log out. Easy in, easy out. Granted the game is only a year out and not perfect but it has potential. The only downside is the lack of server community aspect because you "don't really need others" to advance in the game and not as dependent to other people's help. Still, FF14 is fun to play together with friends or new friends alike, and showing off things to people still bring that warm and fuzzy feelings to your heart.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

You do realize majority of ARR's systems originated in 1.0-1.22..right? The only "difference" is how it's impelemented in certain areas, otherwise no, it's not totally different - if you touched any of the jobs that isn't ACN/SMN/SCH, you're playing something that was created and existed up to 4 years ago. Even ACN was already in the game but not usable for players.

Them streamlining certain content doesn't mean it's "compeletly different", a lot of the lore is still very much the same, just reformatted to fit the "5 years later".

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Considering how many people were complaining about 2.0's battle system being a downgrade from 1.21's, I'd say that the battle system is a lot different. The only people that insist that the game is 5 years old are the ones complaining all the time because they want to make unfair comparisons to 5 year old games.

Because I have the time:

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Originally Posted by File2ish

Just saying: rotation + amount of buttons available =/= complexity. FFXI had multiple jobs that weren't just sit and wait for TP and had reactionary gameplay rather than static. It offers the same complexity as ARR, but in different ways.

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FFXIV also has reactionary gameplay, you just choose to ignore it to support your argument. All physical DPS classes have an interrupt. Some actually have multiple.

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Originally Posted by File2ish

Thief: Sneak Attack Trick Attack. Position mattered in order to help the tank hold hate.

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Both melee DPS in FFXIV have way more positional requirements than Thief (or any dps in FFXI really). While SATA does bring hate management to the table, we're talking about two abilities that are on a 1 minute timer here. This suddenly makes Thief more complex than Monk and Dragoon in FFXIV? The only way Thief had an interrupt was by equipping a subpar weapon and having TP to use the appropriate weapon skill. The only status effects they could inflict (pre-75-cap removal) came from crossbow bolts. Dragoons in FFXIV come equipped with two Stuns, Monks with 1 Stun (and an unreliable Silence I guess), both come equipped with DoT attacks, AoE attacks and inate status effects to apply to the mob. And FFXIV is still at a level 50 cap.

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Originally Posted by File2ish

Ranger: Range you shoot your bow/gun/crossbow from actually effected how much damage you do. Knowing when a good time to use barrage and other skills was, etc.

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FFXI was more complex because you had to decide when to use your skills? You think the same doesn't apply to FFXIV? You're right that range affected the damage that you did, but does that make it a more complex job than FFXIV's Bard that has DoTs to keep on the mob, a silence interrupt, a self buff to keep up in it's rotation (Ranger in FFXI didn't even have a rotation, just spamming the ranged attack key until 100 TP) and AoE attacks? And I'm ignoring the songs to keep the comparison strictly to DPS.

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Originally Posted by File2ish

Ninja: Proper use and timing of Utsusemi Ichi and Ni so you don't die (because Ninja tank) and use of other Ninjutsu for specific types of debuffs.

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Ninja was probably slightly more complex than Paladins in FFXIV because of the timing of Utsusemi, but Warriors in FFXIV have a lot more to do than Ninja ever did in FFXI. But then you also consider how multiple mob tanking in FFXI really wasn't a thing (we slept everything at least at 75 level cap) and how the function of Provoke in FFXIV allows for tank swapping mechanics too, so there's really no question about the game where tanking is more complex.

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Originally Posted by File2ish

Scholar: Flipping between black and white magic stances when necessary (yes, in party situations as well).

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What exactly do you think White Mages and Scholars currently do in FFXIV?

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Originally Posted by File2ish

I daresay there could be more complexity in XI than there is in ARR.

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The only real added complexity that FFXI had was that it had dedicated support jobs in Bard and Corsair, meaning that the game had 4 roles instead of the 3 used in ARR. Though, it's not like Bards and Corsairs had complex duties other than judging distances so their buffs hit the right players (not really that hard in a game where AoE dodge mechanics were pretty much inexistant so party members could easily maintain positions).

Didn't address Dancer or Blue Mage since FFXIV doesn't really have an equivalent to these and they were added to FFXI years after it's release. FFXIV obviously will have more jobs in the future, we just have to wait and see how they'll be implemented.

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Originally Posted by Redemption

Seriously, stop saying this... FFXI bears no resemblance to what it was like in its prime and is now running similar mechanics to what FFXIV is using. This is why fans of FFXI are not playing FFXI. I personally, would be over there right now if Seekers of Adoulin hadn't destroyed the already wrecked game in the aftermath of abyssea. Besides, theres no reason why good concepts from FFXI can't come over as long as they work in the environment here.

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Uh seekers didn't kill ffxi it was abyss get it right.

If you had gone to seekers at 75 and kept the party base stuff it would of been good.

As for "you would of stayed there" maybe you should have cause you expected to come here for same junk and was disappointed, it's a different MMO with different battle mechanics and game play, I didn't come to FFXIV expecting the same thing, I have played for years since twinkling treants in FFXI to SOA leaving dec 2013 and wanted something different and I got it.

If that was your mind set please don't bring anything from FFXI cause if I wanted to play FFXI I would cancel my sub and go back to FFXI the game still exist.

I understand some monsters from FFXI are in this game and other stuff, though I don't see how puppet will fit in this game or beastmaster which are made for solo game play, you cant take them into dungeons so whats the purpose? If they would make them as powerful as ffxi's puppet and beast it would break the game puppets and beetles tanking bosses and sitting back no thank you.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

Now let's bring back the "Awesome Amazing Ding Ding" that is old school FFXI shall we?:

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How about I post this video from 2006 I found on my old computer to show people how dreadfully boring the combat system was.

http://youtu.be/qWrvaVgX69s

Take off the rose tinted goggles please everyone.

Now I am talking to those who didn't play the original FFXIV or decided to cancel your subscription cause you didn't like it.

I am sure that stuff would have existed in the old one but you didn't support it and this is what we got.

Now you gotta deal with it.

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Originally Posted by reality_check

How about I post this video from 2006 I found on my old computer to show people how dreadfully boring the combat system was.

http://youtu.be/qWrvaVgX69s

Take off the rose tinted goggles please everyone.

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hey I actually like FFXI to rag it, the game is good pre abyss before they went 99.

If SE dropped xbox 360 and ps2 support and moved it to ps4 and upgraded the graphics kept the open world changed battle mechanics but macros the same way and gave us a new story FFXI would be the boss.

FFXI reborn lol

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Originally Posted by reality_check

How about I post this video from 2006 I found on my old computer to show people how dreadfully boring the combat system was.

http://youtu.be/qWrvaVgX69s

Take off the rose tinted goggles please everyone.

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Ewww did people really play that for hours long?

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

- Atmas, customize according to your need. Play with it, collect it, experiment, above all HAVE FUN!

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Now I;m wondering which came first the zodiac-themed and apparently tedious Atma of XIV or the NM-sourced customizable Atma of XI

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Originally Posted by Alukah

Ewww did people really play that for hours long?

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I didn't include the part where it took 2 hours (no exaggeration) of JUST running around to gain 1-time access to this fight.