Is this the road they will continue to take with items?

FFXI has a very loyal fan base who have been playing the game for its whole 11+ years. For 10 of those years, XI featured horizontal progression. Now, with the latest expansion, it has changed to vertical progression.

And you know what? Their 11 year old loyal fan base, who you think would be outraged at such a drastic change to their beloved game, is not complaining.

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Originally Posted by Rhysati

If you think the problem people had with Cata was raiding and the problem with Pandaria was because of a 'Kung Fu Panda' hatred...man you have a very skewed view of reality.

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Raiding was part of the major issues WoW had at the time. The raiding community that Wrath created shrunk considerably between the gating used for Cata content and how the raids were tuned. That's why they eased up a bit with Firelands and ended up giving the pony away with the deathwing heroics + raid. There were other issues, including PvP and class changes that were poorly implemented or there for the sake of change (while Blizzard brushed off the criticism by saying "l0lz peepl3 h8 ch4ng3").

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They also completely stripped any ounce of customization of your character and their class from the game to make it so you effectively have zero choice in how you play. Some people claim there never WAS a choice to begin with(but I beg to differ since I usually played outside the 'meta' builds and did far better than those that stayed within because it fit my style).

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Yeah, I'm sure you rocked raids as a shockadin or a lolsmite priest. Perhaps you were one of those who was specced dual wield shadowfrost when that was the OP death knight spec. Or protribution for PvP.

Regardless of how you try to deny it, there was no choice. You specced into whatever the theorycrafters decreed was best and if you were not, any raiding guild worth a damn was going to first ask you to spec properly and then start giving you hell over it or simply bench you. Certain classes and specs did have some amount of leeway (ret paladins had 2-3 talent points they could put anywhere, arms and prot warriors had 2 points that could go anywhere), but let's not delude ourselves into thinking there was choice. The devs weren't lying when they said the changes to talents basically gave you everything you already specced into as you leveled while making the actual talents utility. All they did was give the theorycrafters one less thing to do.

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Originally Posted by Tadacho

FFXI has a very loyal fan base who have been playing the game for its whole 11+ years. For 10 of those years, XI featured horizontal progression. Now, with the latest expansion, it has changed to vertical progression.

And you know what? Their 11 year old loyal fan base, who you think would be outraged at such a drastic change to their beloved game, is not complaining.

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I hear different. The population dropped drastically with the release of that expansion, with many people leaving and pissed that their work got invalidated in one patch. Most people I talked to when I bring up FFXI called Abyssea a big mistake that "ruined" the game.

Yes, sadly as others have said, this is the garbage progression that Yoshi P has chosen.

There were plenty of us that gave feedback and constructive answers during Alpha and Beta of 2.0 on NOT going with a pure Vertical Progression model, but it fell on deaf ears.

I sincerely hope the Dev Team changes this (or least strikes a BALANCE of having some decent, interesting Horizontal Progression and letting our gear be more relevant than just a few months, before it's overwritten again by the next patch).

It doesn't have to be as extreme as XI with years of relevancy (pure horizontal extreme), but it certainly doesn't have to be as silly as it is now (every few months, item Level increases, all previous gear worthless). There CAN be a balance.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Yes, sadly as others have said, this is the garbage progression that Yoshi P has chosen.

There were plenty of us that gave feedback and constructive answers during Alpha and Beta of 2.0 on NOT going with a pure Vertical Progression model, but it fell on deaf ears.

I sincerely hope the Dev Team changes this (or least strikes a BALANCE of having some decent, interesting Horizontal Progression and letting our gear be more relevant than just a few months, before it's overwritten again by the next patch).

It doesn't have to be as extreme as XI with years of relevancy (pure horizontal extreme), but it certainly doesn't have to be as silly as it is now (every few months, item Level increases, all previous gear worthless). There CAN be a balance.

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Gear is generally only outdated every 6 months, that's a decent time IMO. How long are you wanting to sit on the same gear? I remember having BIS in ffxi, quitting for 2 years, coming back and still being 99% BIS. Guess what happened? A month later I had quit again because I had nothing to work toward.

Yup this is the cycle of FFXIV gear lifecycle every major patch.

Weekly Tome X grind > Weekly Coil grind > Repeat for the next 6 months.

I hope they do another Primal extreme-like quests where those weapons actually meant something for awhile.

We apologize the inconvenience this may cause, we thank you for your understanding. Please look forward to it.

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Originally Posted by Taban

Gear is generally only outdated every 6 months, that's a decent time IMO. How long are you wanting to sit on the same gear? I remember having BIS in ffxi, quitting for 2 years, coming back and still being 99% BIS. Guess what happened? A month later I had quit again because I had nothing to work toward.

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Hi Taban,

On a theoretical level, sure it's "6 months," but with Weekly Lockouts and a poorly-designed Massive Loot Pool per Chest, you may NEVER get those items for MONTHS. Our static was clearing Turn 4 consistently from early on (well before Echo), and we *never* saw the Tank Allagan Gloves drop. Ever. (No joke.) That's RNG.

Also, most groups lose about ~1 month or so learning and progressing to clear a particular turn, so overall, "No," the actual amount of time a player might have a "BiS" Item from Coil is far less than "6 Months."

9~12 months is better time. 13~18 is pushing it. 19+ is ridiculous for gear to not be invalidated.

Basically, every other "hardcore" patch should invalidate the gear from 2 patches ago, or at least strongly discourage the use of it.

Its called lazy developers making a lazy game for lazy gamers.

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Originally Posted by Sonofbaldo

Its called lazy developers making a lazy game for lazy gamers.

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Yet here you are among the lot of us.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Hi Taban,

On a theoretical level, sure it's "6 months," but with Weekly Lockouts and a poorly-designed Massive Loot Pool per Chest, you may NEVER get those items for MONTHS. Our static was clearing Turn 4 consistently from early on (well before Echo), and we *never* saw the Tank Allagan Gloves drop. Ever. (No joke.) That's RNG.

Also, most groups lose about ~1 month or so learning and progressing to clear a particular turn, so overall, "No," the actual amount of time a player might have a "BiS" Item from Coil is far less than "6 Months."

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Wait so, the complaint is that you want at least the 6 month period AFTER you've acquired BiS? That's... uhh... unusual.

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Originally Posted by Tadacho

FFXI has a very loyal fan base who have been playing the game for its whole 11+ years. For 10 of those years, XI featured horizontal progression. Now, with the latest expansion, it has changed to vertical progression.

And you know what? Their 11 year old loyal fan base, who you think would be outraged at such a drastic change to their beloved game, is not complaining.

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Except you forgot to mention that 90% of the fanbase left the game once abby was introduced, SE was forced to merge servers to cut costs, and released an expansion in a desperate attempt to get them back. Also, if you unsub, you can't post on the game's forums, which is why there was no complaints.

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Originally Posted by Scootaloo

Except you forgot to mention that 90% of the fanbase left the game once abby was introduced, SE was forced to merge servers to cut costs, and released an expansion in a desperate attempt to get them back. Also, if you unsub, you can't post on the game's forums, which is why there was no complaints.

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I think we can safely say that was the point at which the development department up at SE had lost sight of what FFXI's fanbase saw in their game. There were some seriously annoying/broken things in FFXI, but game balance be damned, the fans loved it regardless.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

I think we can safely say that was the point at which the development department up at SE had lost sight of what FFXI's fanbase saw in their game. There were some seriously annoying/broken things in FFXI, but game balance be damned, the fans loved it regardless.

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Rumor I heard was that it was to kill XI for XIV. It gave players the ability to be super powerful for one last hurrah, now go join FFXIV. When 1.0 was the disaster it was, they had to figure out how to "restart" XI. Too late I guess.

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Originally Posted by Magis

Rumor I heard was that it was to kill XI for XIV. It gave players the ability to be super powerful for one last hurrah, now go join FFXIV. When 1.0 was the disaster it was, they had to figure out how to "restart" XI. Too late I guess.

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That might make sense from the perspective of some developers who don't want to be stuck working on tech that is over a decade old. So far they are attempting to make ARR a hybrid between 1.0 and 2.0 if the features we have been seeing in previous patches are any indication of the future.

I liked how SE managed to keep the i80 dungeon sets, the i100 ST sets and the new i95 primal weapons semi relevant: the i80 ilevel cap. Many of the BiS and near-BiS pieces for various classes in i80 Frontlines/Wolf's Den are not Soldiery or High Allagan.

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Originally Posted by morlin

...I'd just like to know whether or not i should care anymore if i can just wait for the next patch and get previous seasons endgame gear in an hour. Too boring .

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Sound like I can buy iPhone6 cheaper when I phone7 is out. Too boring ^^;
Btw, if would be worse if players cannot get previous gear easily, it would become unbalance.

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

Sound like I can buy iPhone6 cheaper when I phone7 is out. Too boring ^^;

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Using your analogy... it's if the iPhone 7 was the iPhone 6 but had a different coat of paint on it and a 5% faster CPU but all the new programs ran 5% slower anyway (leading to a net improvement of 0%). Functionally it's the same, no new features... just a different look to it. No one would buy it (well... Apple fanboys), because it doesn't bring anything new to the table over the older phone. This is why new features are added every iteration. To bring it back to MMOs... items should have something that separates them from other items other than an ilvl increase, which itself is a meaningless number that forever increases.

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

Btw, if would be worse if players cannot get previous gear easily, it would become unbalance.

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If the game wasn't built around fast vertical progression, that wouldn't be a problem. The reason there is such a gap from a fresh lvl 50 to ilvl 100 is because of the system. Heck... we have basically DOUBLED our ilvl from 50, and we haven't even got to the expansion yet.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Wait so, the complaint is that you want at least the 6 month period AFTER you've acquired BiS? That's... uhh... unusual.

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Hi Welsper,

No, I wasn't stating my preference for a fixed time "after acquiring an item," I was pointing out to Taban the claim that "6 months" being plenty of time w/ a piece of gear wasn't true at all for many people; many players don't have a "new shiny" from the day of the patch release -> say, 5 - 6 months (next iLevel Patch Bump).

Ultimately, I can only speak for myself (and many of my JP and NA friends) in saying that the current pace of gear inflation is too accelerated for our tastes.

So much work is wasted (fights / dungeons being outdated so quickly), or if something gets to be too RNG-reliant (e.g., certain HA piece not dropping), I'm hearing more and more comments (and I feel the same way), that, "Meh, doesn't matter. Next (big) patch will invalidate the gear anyways. Whatever." :rolleyes:

The general feeling of detachment from the rewards you're getting because of how fast Item Level / Vertical Progression is going isn't something I like in FF XIV at all.

I hope they change this.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

I think we can safely say that was the point at which the development department up at SE had lost sight of what FFXI's fanbase saw in their game. There were some seriously annoying/broken things in FFXI, but game balance be damned, the fans loved it regardless.

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They had to do something due to XIV's development then later ARR's development. Abyssea was fine in concept but in execution it pretty much butchered a lot of XI because XI was designed and built to have things to do as you progressed and leveling was also part of the experience since aside the 'standard camps' it gave you a reason to go places beyond just warping to your next event.

The ironic thing is, even after all was said and done, XI still updates quicker and even sometimes add systems other MMOs don't have or stuff this one "can't do" per SE's words.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Hi Welsper,

No, I wasn't stating my preference for a fixed time "after acquiring an item," I was pointing out to Taban the claim that "6 months" being plenty of time w/ a piece of gear wasn't true at all for many people; many players don't have a "new shiny" from the day of the patch release -> say, 5 - 6 months (next iLevel Patch Bump).

Ultimately, I can only speak for myself (and many of my JP and NA friends) in saying that the current pace of gear inflation is too accelerated for our tastes.

So much work is wasted (fights / dungeons being outdated so quickly), or if something gets to be too RNG-reliant (e.g., certain HA piece not dropping), I'm hearing more and more comments (and I feel the same way), that, "Meh, doesn't matter. Next (big) patch will invalidate the gear anyways. Whatever." :rolleyes:

The general feeling of detachment from the rewards you're getting because of how fast Item Level / Vertical Progression is going isn't something I like in FF XIV at all.

I hope they change this.

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They can't account for your personal RNG when creating a release schedule. It could take me 5 years to see a pair of High Allagan Gloves drop from Turn 7 (odds are it won't, but it could). That doesn't mean they should delay releasing upgrades. Those same players who don't have the shiny new item from the day of the patch release probably won't have the shiny new upgrade on the day of the next patch release 6 months later. How long do you want gear to stagnate before you're comfortable that you've had yours long enough?

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Originally Posted by Scootaloo

Except you forgot to mention that 90% of the fanbase left the game once abby was introduced, SE was forced to merge servers to cut costs, and released an expansion in a desperate attempt to get them back. Also, if you unsub, you can't post on the game's forums, which is why there was no complaints.

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Where are you getting your subscription numbers? =p I haven't been able to find them. Also was this 90% of the 10% remaining after 90% of the active players were all banned in the salvage bans? Or did 90% quit first, and then 90% of that remaining 10% were all banned?

Are you crazy? I hate keeping the same gear, Thats why I welcome expansions so I can finally replace the same old boring stuff I had to look at.

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Originally Posted by Taban

They can't account for your personal RNG when creating a release schedule. It could take me 5 years to see a pair of High Allagan Gloves drop from Turn 7 (odds are it won't, but it could). That doesn't mean they should delay releasing upgrades. Those same players who don't have the shiny new item from the day of the patch release probably won't have the shiny new upgrade on the day of the next patch release 6 months later. How long do you want gear to stagnate before you're comfortable that you've had yours long enough?

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Hi Taban,

You seem to be going to black & white extremes here. First, it was in regards to the idea that it was a full "6 months," which is simply not true. Perhaps for the freak RNG 0.001% / one player that beat the newest end game raid on Day 1, and won their drop, but realistically the Dev Team can estimate and see past data that it'll probably be a few weeks / 1st month before a small group starts getting a drop here or there.

They also have access to their Drop Rate and metrics. They know if there's only a 1:12 chance for something to drop, and factoring in time / clears, etc. what the distribution of rewards is going to be like over time.

Lastly, no one's advocating for your extreme "let gear stagnate" stance. Those of us that are asking for *some* (partial) Horizontal Progression are essentially asking for similar things: We WANT NEW GEAR also. It's just a different angle to approach it.

A quick example: *IF* Stats mattered more, and they made a discernible difference, you could easily have multiple builds for -

(All the same "Item Level")

* Tank VIT Build - Blood Tanking, Highest HP Pool, etc.
* Tank STR Build - Strength that actually made a real difference in Block Damage Reduction, and Damage #'s (which means more Enmity / more Offensive Tank).
* Tank DEX Build - Dexterity that really mattered, that affected Parry Rate, Block Rate and/or Evasion Rate.
* Gear that had "Increased Enmity"
* Gear that had "Enhances Rampart" (making Rampart AOE Shield Buff for anyone in range).
* Maybe a Rare Crafted Set (w/ Very Rare Dungeon Drop Mats) that allowed slotting of Counterattack Materia.

Etc.

Instead with Vertical Progression and Limited Stats that really matter, Yoshi P has painted himself into a corner. He has no choice but to keep increasing Item Level and increase the same boring limited Stats every few months, because there are NO other venues / no other possible meaningful gear.

Horizontal Progression (or even Partial Horizontal Progression) still gives you New Gear and it *could* come out at the same pace as now ("6 months" as you say), except that your current max level set isn't completely eradicated.

In short, bring back the illusion of choice.

Just say that next time.

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Originally Posted by Scootaloo

Except you forgot to mention that 90% of the fanbase left the game once abby was introduced, SE was forced to merge servers to cut costs, and released an expansion in a desperate attempt to get them back. Also, if you unsub, you can't post on the game's forums, which is why there was no complaints.

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This is wrong. A ton of people came back to play FFXI when abyssea came out in my LS because it was new and finally could level past 75. Server merges happened way before abyssea came out because people stopped playing the game cause there was no new endgame content for about 2 years.

Which road do SE take their items to?

Is this a road that they drop items off to cause I don't see items out on the roads in FFXIV so what road do you speak of?

SE makes gear progression horizontal and grinding: players complain about taking too long to see improvements and higher-end content too inaccessible.

SE makes gear progression vertical and volatile: players complain about content being outdated too quickly and old gear handed out too easily.

SE really can't win with you people.

This game has some of easiest vertical progression out there (for a modern, subscription MMO). You can comfortably reach level 50 within a week and get i90 at the same time.

Despite the game constantly trying to shove gear and bonuses down your pants, there are still gigantic portions of the population who still haven't cleared Hard Mode primals and the first five turns of Coil (which have been released for a year).

The last thing we want to do is take away Easy Mode features like Hunts and Logs from people who are permanently on the struggle bus (especially if they're new to the game, where the population still at their progress gets thinner and thinner every day).

Do you really want to play a game where you're working towards the same goal for years and years? Jump in a time machine and play FFXI...

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Originally Posted by Zumi

This is wrong. A ton of people came back to play FFXI when abyssea came out in my LS because it was new and finally could level past 75. Server merges happened way before abyssea came out because people stopped playing the game cause there was no new endgame content for about 2 years.

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Let's not kid ourselves - More people left compared to more came back. You did however see more newer players coming in as they were taking advantage of the dual sub discount for XIV/XI eventually offered.

So you're not exactly correct either. Server mergings happened before, during and after Abyssea as well, but she was more correct in stating after Abyssea they did have a merger because of the dropped number, which included the infamous Titan and Phoenix merging.

As for no new end-game - Abyssea was 2009-2010, WotG end-game, WoE and Voidwatch was introduced just before and during that time span. Prior to that was the conclusion of ToAU's end game.

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As for no new end-game - Abyssea was 2009-2010, WotG end-game, WoE and Voidwatch was introduced just before and during that time span. Prior to that was the conclusion of ToAU's end game.

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Voidwatch was after Abyssea it offered side grades and some upgrades to abyssea gear at 1% drop rates. WoE was before and after. There were some 75 WoE zones and there were several after Abessa that was for lv90

FFXI progression was Abyssea > Voidwatch => Legion > Seekers Expansion (delve, wildskeepers, skermish)

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Voidwatch was after Abyssea it offered side grades and some upgrades to abyssea gear at 1% drop rates. WoE was before and after. There were some 75 WoE zones and there were several after Abessa that was for lv90

FFXI progression was Abyssea > Voidwatch => Legion > Seekers Expansion (delve, wildskeepers, skermish)

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Voidwatch came just before as it was still 75 cap - That's why I said before and during, because the ones you're thinking of were the nms like Pil and such, which was during and after Abyssea's prime.

The concept of "rest > spawn NM" was before it since it was what dropped some pretty nice 75 cap gear for the time, but it required upgrading those crystals. Specifically they were called 'Voidwalker', but part of the overall 'voidwatch' system that was introduced in parts. due to the development of XIV. Abyssea was pretty much hold over content.

Heck, pure vertical progression is broken as it is right now in a lot of games. It's one thing to have gear increase in level as someone levels up, but that stage of play in the MMO is like a completely different game from end game. In fact, end game is kind of a mess with how they are handling coil and other content for a lot of reasons, namely they are making timed exclusive content for 90% of the player base for the sake of the 10% that can actually invest the time and find a group to do coil. Then the 10% that can do the coil content have to deal with a lockout system when there is a completely different (and arguably better) system implemented with ST and CT.

If anyone wants an example of how timed exclusive content is a bad idea, go look at the Tomb Raider fiasco that happened recently with Microsoft having the next game an Xbox exclusive and leaving everyone who played the older Tomb Raider game on ps3 in the dust. But that is apparently okay because they get an HD edition of the older one for the PS4, goodie. :rolleyes:

Edit: blargh, probably went off topic with that one.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Hi Taban,

You seem to be going to black & white extremes here. First, it was in regards to the idea that it was a full "6 months," which is simply not true. Perhaps for the freak RNG 0.001% / one player that beat the newest end game raid on Day 1, and won their drop, but realistically the Dev Team can estimate and see past data that it'll probably be a few weeks / 1st month before a small group starts getting a drop here or there.

They also have access to their Drop Rate and metrics. They know if there's only a 1:12 chance for something to drop, and factoring in time / clears, etc. what the distribution of rewards is going to be like over time.

Lastly, no one's advocating for your extreme "let gear stagnate" stance. Those of us that are asking for *some* (partial) Horizontal Progression are essentially asking for similar things: We WANT NEW GEAR also. It's just a different angle to approach it.

A quick example: *IF* Stats mattered more, and they made a discernible difference, you could easily have multiple builds for -

(All the same "Item Level")

* Tank VIT Build - Blood Tanking, Highest HP Pool, etc.
* Tank STR Build - Strength that actually made a real difference in Block Damage Reduction, and Damage #'s (which means more Enmity / more Offensive Tank).
* Tank DEX Build - Dexterity that really mattered, that affected Parry Rate, Block Rate and/or Evasion Rate.
* Gear that had "Increased Enmity"
* Gear that had "Enhances Rampart" (making Rampart AOE Shield Buff for anyone in range).
* Maybe a Rare Crafted Set (w/ Very Rare Dungeon Drop Mats) that allowed slotting of Counterattack Materia.

Etc.

Instead with Vertical Progression and Limited Stats that really matter, Yoshi P has painted himself into a corner. He has no choice but to keep increasing Item Level and increase the same boring limited Stats every few months, because there are NO other venues / no other possible meaningful gear.

Horizontal Progression (or even Partial Horizontal Progression) still gives you New Gear and it *could* come out at the same pace as now ("6 months" as you say), except that your current max level set isn't completely eradicated.

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What you're missing is the new BIS is going to be the same 1/9 drop chance, so if it takes you 3 months into 2.2 to upgrade your gloves, theoretically it will take you around the same amount of time to upgrade them again in 2.3. The tomestone items muddy this somewhat, but the point remains. I do agree that more options would be nice, I"m not sure why they didn't make ST items upgradeable with sands. That seemed like a perfect time to release more i110 gear to me. That said any horizontal progression is just going to be broken down into BIS lists instantly. If they released a second raid tier with the exact same item level gear most people would aim for the few "real" upgrades, and there would be a lot lower enthusiasm for any raid that didn't drop a new tier of gear. Horizontal progression worked in ffxi because the game was built around multiple sets of gear and swapping them out mid fight. Without that mechanic people won't collect 8 sets of gear because they're still only going to use the "best" one for their job.

Isn't this the trend for all MMOs?

I am still waiting that SE finally answer the question:

Why they skipped skirmish and token system from 1.xx when back then it was there to "fix" the horrible RNG...
I dont see the RNG changed, so why they needed to fix it in 1.xx but in 2.xx its ok?

Erm...ARR has so many token systems it's ridiculous at this point.

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Originally Posted by Taban

Horizontal progression worked in ffxi because the game was built around multiple sets of gear and swapping them out mid fight. Without that mechanic people won't collect 8 sets of gear because they're still only going to use the "best" one for their job.

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Slight but important correction here: Many Players will go after what they understand as "best" (or at the least "good enough") for there job in what content they are doing. i110 Coil BiS, i80 ilevelsync BiS and uncapped Wolf's Den BiS are all very different. If there was more content that a large number of players needed different gear sets for then a combination Horizontal/Vertical Progression could work.

Currently Coil BiS comes from 3 gear sources: SCoB (High Allagan), Soldiery (Gerolt's Masterworks) and Crafted (i90 pentamelded Accessories).

On the other hand BiS and near-BiS i80 levelsync comes from 10 different sources: BCoB (Allagan), SCoB (High Allagan), Crafted (i95 Primal Weapons and i90 Armor), EX Primals (Levi, Ramuh and EX primal weapons, Primal Accessories), Ultima HM, New EX dungeons (i80 Divine Armor sets), Labyrinth of the Ancients (CT i80 Armor Sets), Syrcus Tower (CT i100 Armor Sets), Soldiery (Gerolt's Masterworks), and Mythology (AF Reproductions).

If anything new ilevelsync content could make things a bit more horizontal.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Erm...ARR has so many token systems it's ridiculous at this point.

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I dont see any, you can buy alternative gear - not real tokens!
You have currency but not tokens...

Tokens where to counter the RNG and not to buy "other" stuff
Where can you buy primal weapons? Tell me please!
Wehre can you buy Loot from Dungeons or Coil? Tell me please!

And what about skirmish system? Thats not with Tokens but also counters RNG!

Sidenote: We had RNG back than, but with those systems you could get the weapon you wish for after some trys with bad RNG luck (some does not mean 3 runs)
All SE said was that they could not give 100% loot drop when adding such a system, because they need to add trash into RNG, we had darkmatter that time, expect on garuda with 100% token drop (garuda was one of the most liked primals, wonder why?)
Why do you think no one likes to help others any more? Because they farm and farm and farm untill they cant see the content any more - seen many players falling into despair because of that!

Technically Sand/Oil is supposed to be the "token" system for Second Coil, but that's out of the bag now. And the reason they don't use tokens is that while there's still RNG, it's not nearly as bad. Like before in 1.0, you had a small chance of ANYTHING even dropping in the first place, much less the item you wanted. That's why they had the tokens for the primals. But now with guaranteed drops, even if it's not what you want, there's no real need for it from primals. And as I said before, you have Sand/Oil for coil. But of course, now everyone and their mom gets those by mindlessly zerging hunts, so yeah.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Erm...ARR has so many token systems it's ridiculous at this point.

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I wouldn't care if they had a token for every content lol. Call it the page of fate or something, for certain conditions add a token for a particular content (like rolling for a primal weapon and failing to win).

A page of essence, use some sort of Echo/mother crystal back lore (excuse... ? lol) and each content has its own essence. Essence obtained on failure to obtain and used as a way to ensure players do not get the worst side of what RNG provides (costs set so they are not your main way of obtaining items, you'd like to rely on RNG but when RNG goes sour thank goodness you can have hope.. sort of system). Just have a page or blip of information next to your duty finder.

Percent systems can be incredibly cruel lol. Anyone leveled a crafter or gatherer can see "oh hey 95% success" fails 6 times in a row.. O_o;;