Gap between MNK and DRG dps widening

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Originally Posted by Craiger

You do realize that SMN does way more dps on 2-3 targets than DRG ? I haven't done any tests, but I'm pretty sure BLM does more dps on 3 targets as well.... Either way, your argument just makes it look worse

EDIT: I just want to add that I'm happily playing DRG as my main, and I won't change to any other job... but that doesn't mean I don't care about the balancing. If everyone would just play what they like and don't care about balancing, then nobody would have wanted the BLM buff that's coming... Feeling like you matter is part of the fun in the game.

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I did not say Drg was the best dps, I only said that Drg optimal situation is to have at least 2 targets, not 1.

You meant two, three target like adds/dungeon mobs? Or two, three target like T1 / Levi EX?

Everyone here who is complaining first of all should read my previous post in this thread. How close do you want your dps to be? within 5? then throw away your spike, get a long build up and quit because your asking for to classes to be the same.

Armor means nothing because either way you should not be getting hit and the hits that are necessary to get eaten are designed to kill no-one. Fundamentally DRG is supposed to have lower dps. They have spike. SMN is in the middle high sustain meh spike. MNK through the roof sustain low spike on a long cd. get it together DRG if you want to be a MNK so bad play one. If not get a handle on your class and play it for what it is. Your asking to be a MNK in DRG armor thats not how a game works

Your not a superhero in this game you cant be good at everything. You are one of thousands of adventurers you are meant to work off of your groups strengths and weaknesses. Again refer to my other post a page or two back to see those.

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

I did not say Drg was the best dps, I only said that Drg optimal situation is to have at least 2 targets, not 1.

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Well okay... But it doesn't change anything to the argument this thread is about. You simply pointed out that DRG isn't strongest at their most optimal situation :) Also, single target dps will always come first when SE is balancing the jobs, since most of the content (that matters at least) is against one boss. BLM has the highest AoE dps, but they still are buffing them to come closer or even with DRG and SMN in single target dps.

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Originally Posted by Lev_Decimo

Everyone here who is complaining first of all should read my previous post in this thread. How close do you want your dps to be? within 5? then throw away your spike, get a long build up and quit because your asking for to classes to be the same.

Armor means nothing because either way you should not be getting hit and the hits that are necessary to get eaten are designed to kill no-one. Fundamentally DRG is supposed to have lower dps. They have spike. SMN is in the middle high sustain meh spike. MNK through the roof sustain low spike on a long cd. get it together DRG if you want to be a MNK so bad play one. If not get a handle on your class and play it for what it is. Your asking to be a MNK in DRG armor thats not how a game works

Your not a superhero in this game you cant be good at everything. You are one of thousands of adventurers you are meant to work off of your groups strengths and weaknesses. Again refer to my other post a page or two back to see those.

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SMN have the same dps as DRG, which means they will beat DRG in every fight except for fights like Turn 8. In many fights they will even beat MNK. DRG's burst isn't that crazy high as some people here think, and most of the time MNK can put out that kind of burst if they time their cooldowns right.

DRG takes more magical damage (almost all damage you take is magical) and have worse utility (mantra sucks for DRG).

Overall, the balance between SMN, DRG and MNK isn't really there, because DRG doesn't excel at anything that SMN or MNK can't do better or almost the same. DRG has better AoE on large amounts of mobs, but who cares ? Everyone still just wants BLM's for dungeons, which is almost the only place it's useful...

I don't want the same DPS as MNK, and I don't want to throw away our burst damage... But since our burst damage isn't that relevant, why should the dps be 10% higher for MNK ? It isn't comparable...

This is exactly the real reason that SE does not want us to use a parser. This way we will see how broken the jobs are in relation to one another, and as an answer to this post above me, yes - DPS classes should be within the same realm as one another. Very close, not 100dps apart. This doesn't make them the "same", but it allows them to perform the same "role" as they are supposed to. We cannot have one DPS class so much further ahead than the others because what happens is the others aren't asked to come to the fight. We leave them behind because why would you ever bring an inferior class?

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

This is exactly the real reason that SE does not want us to use a parser. This way we will see how broken the jobs are in relation to one another, and as an answer to this post above me, yes - DPS classes should be within the same realm as one another. Very close, not 100dps apart. This doesn't make them the "same", but it allows them to perform the same "role" as they are supposed to. We cannot have one DPS class so much further ahead than the others because what happens is the others aren't asked to come to the fight. We leave them behind because why would you ever bring an inferior class?

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So we should have 1 single DPS class? I mean, that would solve the problem if you want all DPS to be the same and not have an inferior or even superior class.

Each DPS has a role to play. It's a damage dealer (I really dislike that they are referred to as DPS - that's a rate) whose role is to simply deal damage in some way.

Monks deal damage constantly, and the longer they are able to deal that damage constantly, the more powerful it gets (to a point). Once they lose that momentum, their dps plummets as they build it back up again. Dragoon's don't have that problem. Their damage starts of in the middle, and it maintains itself in the middle, with occasional bursts/spikes as needed.

And that is perfectly fine.

If you want to deal the high sustained damage, then take up Monk. If you want to be able to provide that much needed spike damage (either to push a phase change or to take out adds etc), then you have Dragoon.

And it's only in specific circumstances which result in the large disparity becoming obvious, and that's when you are under ideal, or close to, conditions where a particular job excels.

Let's have our Monks dispatch adds swiftly, or maybe we should give them the same kind of AoE power as BLM because BLM is a damage dealer who excels as AoE damage, and it's not fair that Monk isn't able to do that. What's the difference in that suggestion to making Monk and Dragoon stand on equal ground?

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Originally Posted by Themis

So we should have 1 single DPS class? I mean, that would solve the problem if you want all DPS to be the same and not have an inferior or even superior class.

Each DPS has a role to play. It's a damage dealer (I really dislike that they are referred to as DPS - that's a rate) whose role is to simply deal damage in some way.

Monks deal damage constantly, and the longer they are able to deal that damage constantly, the more powerful it gets (to a point). Once they lose that momentum, their dps plummets as they build it back up again. Dragoon's don't have that problem. Their damage starts of in the middle, and it maintains itself in the middle, with occasional bursts/spikes as needed.

And that is perfectly fine.

If you want to deal the high sustained damage, then take up Monk. If you want to be able to provide that much needed spike damage (either to push a phase change or to take out adds etc), then you have Dragoon.

And it's only in specific circumstances which result in the large disparity becoming obvious, and that's when you are under ideal, or close to, conditions where a particular job excels.

Let's have our Monks dispatch adds swiftly, or maybe we should give them the same kind of AoE power as BLM because BLM is a damage dealer who excels as AoE damage, and it's not fair that Monk isn't able to do that. What's the difference in that suggestion to making Monk and Dragoon stand on equal ground?

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Nobody is talking about making DRG and MNK equal or something, or that every damage dealer should be the same for that matter... I just want a small buff to dps, just like BLM is getting in 2.3. It would move them closer to MNK, but not the same. DRG would have lower dps and higher burst, while MNK would have higher dps and less burst... Not like now, which is, DRG having MUCH lower dps compared to MNK, while not having a huge amount of added burst. When in GL3, MNK doesn't burst down things much slower than DRG, and if they keep PB for a certain part of a fight, they can do good burst too...

It all just comes down to balancing within reason... BLM got a buff cause they where falling behind in DPS, but they where closer to DRG/SMN, than DRG/SMN is to MNK... So it's not like a buff to DRG would be ruining the game or something -_-

A Drg's noticeable higher burst comes from the fact that Mnk has to charge up his lightning, once the Mnk is fully charged, the difference in burst is not that noticeable anymore. However, there are many instances where a Mnk cannot help but lose his lightning, even if he is a damn good Mnk. I have seen many instances where a good and equally geared Drg can overtake the Mnk until he charge up again. And yes, the dps should be that close, if it's not that close and you have similar gear, then you're simply being outplayed and the fault lies with you.

But I do agree, these Drgs want to do as much damage as a Mnk, which just shouldn't happen. If a Mnk can maintain his lightning and attain optimal uptime on the boss, he should have the highest sustained dps, that is his quirk. Disembowel adds more damage to Bards than people care to realize, especially since people only tend to pay attention to themselves.

I rarely see dragoons use jumps between cooldowns or even at 50 with heavy thrusts. I have seen a very small amount of dragoons playing their class properly so I think that should be taken into account for the dps.

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Originally Posted by PenutButter

But I do agree, these Drgs want to do as much damage as a Mnk, which just shouldn't happen.

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And why not? Who woke up one day and said "Monk should be the highest DPS, period"?

I will never understand this idea that certain jobs should get some privilege and be selected over other jobs when building a party. It was terrible in XI, and it's terrible here too. All jobs should bring comparable DPS and and abilities to the table or the design has failed. We should never, EVER, say "no one should ever have the sustained dps a monk does because, because REASONS".

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

And why not? Who woke up one day and said "Monk should be the highest DPS, period"?

I will never understand this idea that certain jobs should get some privilege and be selected over other jobs when building a party. It was terrible in XI, and it's terrible here too. All jobs should bring comparable DPS and and abilities to the table or the design has failed. We should never, EVER, say "no one should ever have the sustained dps a monk does because, because REASONS".

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I agree with this philosophy. I mean it is not that big of a deal to me because I am capable of playing all the dps classes well, but I do think something should be looked at. I was talking to it with my friend who also plays monk and what he essentially said was this:

MNK will outshine DRG so long as a monk can keep up GL3 or get it back quickly. We also both agreed manipulating the disembowel to be a stronger debuff would make people stack double bard. If you make the dots stronger or longer that could potentially cause an issue. However, changing spineshatter CD to be close to the same timing as normal Jump could work. Considering if we need a gap closer (t9) we have to save it on purpose where a monk can Shoulder Tackle back to darnus, yes drg does have elusive jump but the CD on that is quite long plus you have to make sure you are turned around and angled correctly. Granted both jobs have issues in that fight depending where you stand for fire/lightning and orientations. (off topic)

The thing is this would allow for another weave-able ability which wouldn't be game breaking. Personally I don't what they could do atm to "balance" the jobs on drg w/o completely remaking a skill or two. However, I would not rule out complete overhauls on some jobs in the near future given they already had to with warrior. (which I think should have gotten drg support and not monk - really SE... the other 2 handed dps class that would "relate" to warrior and it doesn't pull from that >_>) Also don't forget with new jobs on the horizon each job could change what they get their support skills from.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

And why not? Who woke up one day and said "Monk should be the highest DPS, period"?

I will never understand this idea that certain jobs should get some privilege and be selected over other jobs when building a party. It was terrible in XI, and it's terrible here too. All jobs should bring comparable DPS and and abilities to the table or the design has failed. We should never, EVER, say "no one should ever have the sustained dps a monk does because, because REASONS".

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Going by that logic; Why shouldn't all classes be just as good in AoEing like a blackmage?, or utility like bard? Everyone has its uses and situations where they shine the best. Bring a monk to a fight with bosses that jump away or make you move. You'll lose greased lightning and your dps will go down. While a dragoon will still do fine. You have to give up something to gain something. Also dragoon is more tanky right?

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Originally Posted by ShinigamiZero

Going by that logic; Why shouldn't all classes be just as good in AoEing like a blackmage?, or utility like bard? Everyone has its uses and situations where they shine the best. Bring a monk to a fight with bosses that jump away or make you move. You'll lose greased lightning and your dps will go down. While a dragoon will still do fine. You have to give up something to gain something. Also dragoon is more tanky right?

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Actually if you have to move on monk... you just shoulder tackle back to it XD cause of the 30second timer. If a drg is doing rotations properly he won't have a gap closer outside, the very long cd, elusive jump. Also, if the target jumps away and is immune to dots while away the drg loses out on their biggest dot damage. So it isn't like drg just can come back and do amazing burst on it. If that was the case, drg would be closer in numbers to monk than it is in t8, but it isn't. The amount of "burst" drg can do does not make up for it's inability to keep up with monk's "sustained damage" yet it suffers similar consequences that monks do when targets jump or force the melee to dodge.

"Dragoons are more tanks" also incorrect, dragoon is not more "tanky" most big damage in this game is magic dmg, and even disciples of hand have more magic defense than a drg. Example: mega flare, 6k hp I still take far more damage than the monk on my team. The only benefit drg has is that it can parry a dive... if you are lucky :x

TLDR: they both suffer similar consequences but in a ideal t8 scenario drg is the college football player and mnk is a nfl superbowl champ.

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Originally Posted by Mardel

Actually if you have to move on monk... you just shoulder tackle back to it XD cause of the 30second timer. If drg is doing rotations properly he won't have a gap closer outside the very long elusive jump at the time. Also, if the target jumps away and is immune to dots while away the drg loses out on their biggest dot damage. So it isn't like drg just magically can come back and be all super burst on it. It suffers to a similar extent as the monk.

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Shoulder tackle does not help on bosses that jump away and are untargetable for some time.

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Originally Posted by ShinigamiZero

Shoulder tackle does not help on bosses that jump away and are untargetable for some time.

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Well neither does spine shatter dive or dragon fire dive. I think this is what we call similar XD, sure you can say "elusive jump" but like I mentioned above the CD does not make a reliable tool in instances. It's like telling a monk hey you can just use PB when you lose your GL3 right?

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Originally Posted by Mardel

Well neither does spine shatter dive or dragon fire dive. I think this is what we call similar XD, sure you can say "elusive jump" but like I mentioned above the CD does not make a reliable tool in instances. It's like telling a monk hey you can just use PB when you lose your GL3 right?

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You can't always pop PB cause its a long cooldown. You're missing the point regardless. There are lots of fights that are unfavorable to monk and favorable more to dragoon and vise-versa. That's the point I'm trying to make. Some classes excell at AoE, some excell at sustained fights, some excell more at burst. You can't have it all in one class.

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Originally Posted by ShinigamiZero

You can't always pop PB cause its a long cooldown. You're missing the point regardless. There are lots of fights that are unfavorable to monk and favorable more to dragoon and vise-versa. That's the point I'm trying to make. Some classes excell at AoE, some excell at sustained fights, some excell more at burst. You can't have it all in one class.

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You know, I was being sarcastic because both elusive jump and perfect balance are both on long CD... right?

Meanwhile, future Ninja's are laughing since they will be top single target dps.

On a more serious note. If we'd take 2nd Coil, I think the 4 turns are close for equally geared MNK vs DRG. We don't need one DPS to top, we need DPS who shine at certain fights. Balancing things out is good. I rather see buffs for dragoons than nerfs for MNK though.

I always find it interesting that people vote for nerfs when they can have a MNK in their group...

TL/DR

DRGs have better burst and better AoE, and less complicated positionals. Monk has higher single target damage. Happy? Never..

Side Note: Dat Chakra's OP

I honestly can't respond to threads like this because everyone's parsers report different damage and are setup differently, so there will never be an accurate number on what someone *should* be doing.

I don't think there's more than a 5% DPS difference between MNK and DRG if they are both geared equivalently and played to their best potential.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

That's not the biggest problem though, the bigger problem is SMN... I have no problem with BLM getting buffed, cause they don't have very good mobility. SMN on the other hand, are very mobile, and they still put out the same DPS as DRG...

SMN win against DRG almost all of the time, if they know what they are doing, especially on fights with much movement, where they also beat MNK's... They have better mobility, utility and have superior cleave damage.

What I think many DRG's, including myself, are kinda upset about, is that DRG doesn't really excel at anything. BRD have the best utility in the game, BLM has the best AOE (with infinite mana), SMN has everything... MNK has highest single target dps, DRG has middle of the pack dps, almost no utility, lowest magic defense in game etc... Burst damage isn't really a great argument for it either, cause they don't really have that much higher than anyone else.

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Have you played summoner, or even dragoon at end game? Just curious, cause you have a full set of soldiery gear. Irregardless, some of the things you mention are blanket statements that are outright false. Summoners do not have "crazy easy rotations" and they certainly do not "excel at everything". What they are good at is when there are 3-4 adds so they can use bane , and also when the boss leaves the area but their dots continue ticking. Levi and T9 are good examples of this. That being said, all other dps classes except for blm also has 2 dots but how often do I see them refresh it before the boss flies away? Hardly. What you are saying is just being disrespectful towards smns who min max and play their class well. Just like every other class, there are many small things you need to do as a summoner to deal good dps. Microing your pet and its abilities, dot clipping and utilizing auto attacks are just a few things that they need to do to keep up their dps. Not to mention, should your pet somehow die, you lose a huge chunk of your dps whereas other classes do not have to worry about that. However the biggest reason I would say smn is by no means what yoiu claim to be crazy easy to play is that their rotation is not fixed, at least certainly not easier than dragoon. What this means is that past a fixed opening rotation, smns have to keep track of dots and their pet while also avoiding mechanics. Drgs have a fixed rotation, and although incredibly long, its still fixed and over time, it becomes ingrained and you can use muscle memory to execute it. I have played mnk and drg in coil 2, so I know what I am talking about.

Also you are totally off on the blm front. Top tier blms have little issues with movement. Their problem was that even on turret fights, their dps was still inferior to smn mnks and drgs. So while the fire potency buffs will help blms with movement issues, it was never meant to solve their movement problems, else they would have made firestarter stack or allow surecast to allow casting while moving. The whole point of the fire potency buffs was to bring blms closer to other classes in stationary fights.

It seems you are picking on smn when it is generally recognized that their class is one of the most balanced in game. Blm needed a buff and the 2.3 patch will bring the 2 casters very close in terms of damage output, at least at the top level, but blm will still shine at burst and aoe. It would be nice to see you come up with some evidence or numbers to back up your statements, since it seems you have not even stepped into scob.

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Originally Posted by ShinigamiZero

I rarely see dragoons use jumps between cooldowns or even at 50 with heavy thrusts. I have seen a very small amount of dragoons playing their class properly so I think that should be taken into account for the dps.

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yeah lets balance the dps of the DRG job around bad players ~~

Craiger please just stop for the love of Bahamut. Your claims are baseless. SMN is balanced they do good dps and can fester for some burst. DRG you can spike your damage by 30% for 20s plus a little crit on top of that you can on demand crit your highest hitting skill. If thats not spike then what is.

There have been fights (Ifrit, Garuda, Titan, Turn 4, Turn 5, etc) where I wish I was a DRG because of the damage they can put out in a few seconds, but I am not I know what my class is good at and play to that advantage so why dont you see DRG's advantage in situations. MMORPG's are games of advantages. SMN's advantage is a fight with many breaks. A DRG's advantage is a fight with burn phases (turn 5 is perfect example) and MNK's advantage are long fights with little downtime. BLM's advantage are fights with little movement and aoe. Why is it so hard to see this. IF you want all classes do top dps under any circumstance go play single player because thats not how multiplayer games work.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

Have you played summoner, or even dragoon at end game? Just curious, cause you have a full set of soldiery gear. Irregardless, some of the things you mention are blanket statements that are outright false. Summoners do not have "crazy easy rotations" and they certainly do not "excel at everything". What they are good at is when there are 3-4 adds so they can use bane , and also when the boss leaves the area but their dots continue ticking. Levi and T9 are good examples of this. That being said, all other dps classes except for blm also has 2 dots but how often do I see them refresh it before the boss flies away? Hardly. What you are saying is just being disrespectful towards smns who min max and play their class well. Just like every other class, there are many small things you need to do as a summoner to deal good dps. Microing your pet and its abilities, dot clipping and utilizing auto attacks are just a few things that they need to do to keep up their dps. Not to mention, should your pet somehow die, you lose a huge chunk of your dps whereas other classes do not have to worry about that. However the biggest reason I would say smn is by no means what yoiu claim to be crazy easy to play is that their rotation is not fixed, at least certainly not easier than dragoon. What this means is that past a fixed opening rotation, smns have to keep track of dots and their pet while also avoiding mechanics. Drgs have a fixed rotation, and although incredibly long, its still fixed and over time, it becomes ingrained and you can use muscle memory to execute it. I have played mnk and drg in coil 2, so I know what I am talking about.

Also you are totally off on the blm front. Top tier blms have little issues with movement. Their problem was that even on turret fights, their dps was still inferior to smn mnks and drgs. So while the fire potency buffs will help blms with movement issues, it was never meant to solve their movement problems, else they would have made firestarter stack or allow surecast to allow casting while moving. The whole point of the fire potency buffs was to bring blms closer to other classes in stationary fights.

It seems you are picking on smn when it is generally recognized that their class is one of the most balanced in game. Blm needed a buff and the 2.3 patch will bring the 2 casters very close in terms of damage output, at least at the top level, but blm will still shine at burst and aoe. It would be nice to see you come up with some evidence or numbers to back up your statements, since it seems you have not even stepped into scob.

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I know SMN and DRG well enough... I don't know what you're on about though, because I've played lots of SMN (not for some time now though), and I didn't have hard time with it. I'm not insulting SMN's or something, cause I loved playing it back then, and it does take some skills to get the most out of them, but it still stands that you can put out a big amount of dps even when you are moving around, without doing too much...

When I said SMN is good at everything, I didn't mean literately "everything"... They are on par with DRG on dps, have great cleave damage, great mobility and great utility.

In a fight like Turn 8, SMN might seem very balanced, but take any other fight where a DRG and MNK can't have 100% uptime, you will find that a good SMN will shine, and out-dps DRG's, and in some cases out-dps even MNK's. That's what I think makes SMN a little OP right now, nothing else. If they where affected the same way that DRG and MNK are in those kind of fights, then I wouldn't have any problem with them...

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Originally Posted by Lev_Decimo

Craiger please just stop for the love of Bahamut. Your claims are baseless. SMN is balanced they do good dps and can fester for some burst. DRG you can spike your damage by 30% for 20s plus a little crit on top of that you can on demand crit your highest hitting skill. If thats not spike then what is.

There have been fights (Ifrit, Garuda, Titan, Turn 4, Turn 5, etc) where I wish I was a DRG because of the damage they can put out in a few seconds, but I am not I know what my class is good at and play to that advantage so why dont you see DRG's advantage in situations. MMORPG's are games of advantages. SMN's advantage is a fight with many breaks. A DRG's advantage is a fight with burn phases (turn 5 is perfect example) and MNK's advantage are long fights with little downtime. BLM's advantage are fights with little movement and aoe. Why is it so hard to see this. IF you want all classes do top dps under any circumstance go play single player because thats not how multiplayer games work.

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Well, I just explained why I think SMN is a little OP right now...

As to the DRG burst, you are exaggerating pretty much... SMN might not have much burst, but that's their only weakness. That's one of the reasons you bring other jobs to the fights, cause SMN doesn't have that burst, but you usually don't need a DRG for the burst. If a MNK has GL3, he will deal such high damage that he won't be too far behind DRG's in burst... He can also use PB. It's not like DRG is the only job with damage increasing buffs which increases your burst. You make it sound like DRG's can dish out insane amounts of damage over a small period of time, while others can't pop any CD for burst....

DRG has burst, sure, but that doesn't make up for all the dps SMN gets in some fights....

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Originally Posted by Craiger

I know SMN and DRG well enough... I don't know what you're on about though, because I've played lots of SMN (not for some time now though), and I didn't have hard time with it. I'm not insulting SMN's or something, cause I loved playing it back then, and it does take some skills to get the most out of them, but it still stands that you can put out a big amount of dps even when you are moving around, without doing too much...

When I said SMN is good at everything, I didn't mean literately "everything"... They are on par with DRG on dps, have great cleave damage, great mobility and great utility.

In a fight like Turn 8, SMN might seem very balanced, but take any other fight where a DRG and MNK can't have 100% uptime, you will find that a good SMN will shine, and out-dps DRG's, and in some cases out-dps even MNK's. That's what I think makes SMN a little OP right now, nothing else. If they where affected the same way that DRG and MNK are in those kind of fights, then I wouldn't have any problem with them...

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Again you are taking a very narrow and self centered view about this. As explained to you many times before, this is a team game and padding your dps is not the end all be all of the game. Also as explained to you previously, different classes shine at different roles so where you say that summoners are less affected by fights with low uptimes, then they are equally affected by fights which have high burst requirement. By your logic, we should only bring 4 black mages for t4 and 4 monks for t8. The game doesn't work that way because every class has its time to shine, drgs having good burst and providing a dps increase for bard.

Your claims of playing smn "back then" are also pretty weak. Do you know that Scob is a totally different beast than the first one? Scob favours melee a lot more than the former because melee generally have alot more uptime on the boss (and I'm not talking about t8 oinly). If smn is as easy to optimize as you claim, then why not you go try one and get back to me on that?

Eh, it sounds like there's some bad DRG's here complaining, while it is true that on STATIC fights like T8 MNK excells at DPS, easily being on the top, but when there's some mechanics involved like in T9 MNK DPS quickly plummets compared to the other classes, MNK being one of them, it's luck based on what mechanics are aimied at if you are able to keep your DPS or not. MNK cannot resume a combo where it left off, if you had to run away from mechanics, and has to start the whole rotation again to build up, you can use perfect balance once, not over and over, while DRG can quickly pick back up their DPS.

Considering that there aren't many purely static fights atm, I'd say it's balance, most people just seem very preocupied their electronic egos are hurt.

Looks like the Japanese community feels Dragoon needs to be adjusted also. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...81%97%E3%81%84

I'm curious why people keep using T8 as justification for nerfing monk or buffing other DD. All the classes can perform well above the necessary dps threshold. This is the only encounter where monk can perform at it's peak without any exceptional player skill. In pretty much every other fight, most classes tend to perform fairly equally. In my opinion, dragoons, smns, blackmages and bards should be happy that monk performs so well on T8 because it alleviates some of the pressure they have to be perfect.

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Originally Posted by LordMaitreya

Looks like the Japanese community feels Dragoon needs to be adjusted also. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...81%97%E3%81%84

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Give Dragoon the wyvern pet and you'll see a skyrocket of players getting good.

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Originally Posted by Ryans

justification for nerfing monk or buffing other DD.

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It's just how players end up being especially when they get to know where their job of preference stands. It's sad but that's how it is.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Saying context again isn't going to suddenly change the subject. Other factors (gear level, situations in battle, party composition) are involved then them just "needing more training".

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I assumed that the bard would not be gloating about doing more dps than someone who was lesser geared by a significant amount. I also assumed that it would be obvious that, given previous comments, I was talking about comparing similar skill/gear. Thus, if they are skilled(or believe they are) and comparable gear, yet get oudps'd on the full encounter by her bard, then they need more training. Saying context was not an attempt at changing the subject, saying context was trying to get you to connect dots.

how am I exaggerating DRG's burst. That is literally what the skills say. On top of that i have played DRG in a raid situation as well as SMN and MNK. T8 is a poor excuse because it is perfect for MNK. SMN is not easy for everyone. Only people with good micro-managing skills can bring out the SMN true potential, but I digress. This thread isnt about SMN. Its about DRG vs. MNK. Its not even a fight. Using Perfect Balance as an excuse for burst in nonsense when a. its better used as a oh moogle turds move than to pump out a little bit of burst. b. a 3min CD. I will say this giving a minor buff to DRG is fine however in a perfect situation they should still be behind MNK by at least 20dps. even then you are loosing MNK because we lack any burst.


I have said it once and I will say ti again. giving them the same DPS will turn them into the same class. You are not a superhero you cant be good at everything its not how multiplayer works. The SCoB favors MNKs because of low downtimes wait till The TCoB and see what happens. Everything in an MMORPG is situational and changes overtime whether it be the actual classes getting buffed/nerfed or the content changing. in this case i believe it is the content as DRG didnt seem to complain about MNK dps when it was only the first coil.

TBH the comparison that most people look at MNK and DRG are based on dummy parses which are kinda completely irrelevant in group play/SCoB/EX Primals

MNK and DRG gives different functions and options to the team. MNK gives insane single target DPS at the cost of maintaining GL3 (which means low burst too). DRG is a pretty well rounded mDPS that has high burst (they can burst into 600+ DPS, the same range as BRD's burst) and the piercing debuff will benefit the raidDPS because almost all raids will have a BRD around. If you take the 10% DPS number from BRD and add it to your DRG's DPS, you will realize that MNK and DRG actually does the same, if not more, depending on fight.

Dummy and T8 parses are not suitable to use for comparison, as they does not take into account of most fights requiring movement and down times. T9 will clearly show that MNK can suffer pretty badly due to dropping GL3 and eventually, the whole raid's 4 DPS's numbers would be probably +- 20DPS from each other overall.

This is the reason why you don't see raid stacking double MNK at all (apart from LB charging) because people understand that the high disparity in numbers only belong to dummy/T8 parses. Raids generally bring a MNK+DRG+BRD+casterDPS or MNK/DRG+BRD+SMN+BLM due to the different roles, functions and benefits each job brings to the table in a practical fight.

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

I assumed that the bard would not be gloating about doing more dps than someone who was lesser geared by a significant amount. I also assumed that it would be obvious that, given previous comments, I was talking about comparing similar skill/gear. Thus, if they are skilled(or believe they are) and comparable gear, yet get oudps'd on the full encounter by her bard, then they need more training. Saying context was not an attempt at changing the subject, saying context was trying to get you to connect dots.

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Aw why thank you, but it doesn't really work out well trying to connect dots that have no routes between them, especially ones based on your assumptions.

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Originally Posted by ShinigamiZero

Going by that logic; Why shouldn't all classes be just as good in AoEing like a blackmage?, or utility like bard? Everyone has its uses and situations where they shine the best. Bring a monk to a fight with bosses that jump away or make you move. You'll lose greased lightning and your dps will go down. While a dragoon will still do fine. You have to give up something to gain something. Also dragoon is more tanky right?

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You can't apply the logic in a DRG vs MNK argument to other cases. You don't compare a BLM to a DRG, or a SMN to a MNK. It's not unreasonable to expect DRG, MNK and NIN (come 2.4) to be close to each other in terms of performance. The three are melee DPS, so I'd expect them to be within 5-10% of each other under ideal conditions. Having different mechanics for dealing damage is great, but parity in performance is very important with the way the MMO mindset ebbs and flows. You otherwise validate phrases like "getting sunwelled".

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Aw why thank you, but it doesn't really work out well trying to connect dots that have no routes between them, especially ones based on your assumptions.

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If one would not assume comparable skill/gear, then any argument about the comparison of dps to her bard, or comparison of dps in general, would be pointless to make, as well as her gloating over being able to outdps every drg/smn she comes across. There is no glory in boasting about dps versus someone who is less geared/doesnt have similar skill.The routes are there, whether you can see them or not is not of my concern.

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

If one would not assume comparable skill/gear, then any argument about the comparison of dps to her bard, or comparison of dps in general, would be pointless to make, as well as her gloating over being able to outdps every drg/smn she comes across. There is no glory in boasting about dps versus someone who is less geared/doesnt have similar skill.The routes are there, whether you can see them or not is not of my concern.

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Whatever makes you feel better. Like I said before other factors (gear, situation, party comp) come into play other then "needing more training" which is what started this in the first place. If you want to go and say you were assuming comparable gear/skill from the beginning because you felt it was implied more power to you.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Whatever makes you feel better. Like I said before other factors (gear, situation, party comp) come into play other then "needing more training" which is what started this in the first place. If you want to go and say you were assuming comparable gear/skill from the beginning because you felt it was implied more power to you.

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Like I said before: Context.

To bad there's no "job" specific rankings when it comes to damage that way we would all see these vocal players that are making too much noise are probably in the 4 digits instead of 2.

Maybe they should just take 20 potency from Disembowel and add 20 potency to Full Thrust. In theory, it wouldn't be an overall damage increase, but instead do more burst damage since apparently that is all Dragoon is good for according to most people here. In practice, it could probably be a decent overall damage increase considering you could get two 350 potency full thrusts with one being a guaranteed crit all while under the effect of Blood for Blood.

No, no, no and still no. I main DRG myself and I still don't think we really need a buff yet, at least not until the next tier of coil arrive. And when that time does come where DRG are falling behind, we will be getting the buff if we do need it. (Like we did before)

Before we carry on the discussion, are you able to tap into the full potential of DRGs yet? It's the small things that really make a difference. Like the T8 you guys keep bringing up, us DRGs are suppose to be able to hit 460 dps at ilvl 110 with HA spear. There's a post of it on reddit. Instead of spending time trying to get MNKs or SMNs nerf / buff DRGs, why not spent more time pushing yourself closer to the limits first? I'm pretty sure people would be more willingly to listen to you then too. I'm currently at ilvl 107 with HA spear and only able to hit up to 400~420 dps on T8 last week, but I don't think I need any changes besides my own mastery over DRG.

And if we do get a buff, I rather have it be something more on utility over flat potency buff like the one blm are getting recently. Sometime like shorten the cd window of Dragonfire Dive / Elusive Jump or making Piercing Talon more useful (a weak dot but with min. distance to activate like MNK's shoulder tackle?) like one of the thread another DRG started up some time back. Maybe taking a step further and shorten the cd of Power Surge to 40 secs so it stacks with jump too. Just something small, nothing over kill.

On the other hand, those who say DRG doesn't need a buff, which I do agree, drop that physical defense advantage as a point of argument. We shouldn't be taking any avoidable physical damage to begin with, and it's usually the raid-wide magical damage that is killing us, provided we didn't jump to our death or something :p

Call me easily content if you want to, but I think dds that can break the 400 dps barrier should give each other a pat on the back rather than banging each other heads to be first. :o