"They". The pronoun you're looking for is the singular they.
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"They". The pronoun you're looking for is the singular they.
I use "He" by default. I swap to "she" if I'm asked to do so.
And I'm not even thinking that when I say "He" is a male or when I'm say "She" is a female. I don't care at all. I'm just taking the option more probable.
Seeing this http://news.mmosite.com/content/2013...are_male.shtml I think is totally undestable.
Quick googlesearch talks about 60-40% split acording to BBC, but I think that they problably asked in game or something like that,acording to my experience is not true. I woud say 80%-20%
But anyway, this shoudn't be a big deal. No one shoud treat you diferently for being one gender or another, so what? If you feel insulted for an asumption based on a fact (most female characters are guys in R.L.) the problem is you actitude. I undertand that you can feel bad about it and you have a real life problem about it. But you have to take in mind that no one wants to insult you with this.You are the one who have to overcome that feeling.
Well I think he meant "it" as refered to animals. (seeing as miqoutes are not human, btw technically Hyur are not Human too, they just look like them XP)
So we should just call everyone "it" :D
Also everyone are forgetting not all of us are English teacher (blame SE for didn't list that as minimum requirment for buying the game lol)
Some don't know English well like you do or don't know how to use it. Personally English is far from my main language.
I find that more often than not, transgender and gay people are way more sensibile to these issues compared to straight people.
This is nothing new, obviously, as we all know that in some parts of the world there is still a lot of discrimination.
However, trying to "force" things like the OP is doing is going to have the exact opposite result of what these people aim to achieve.
"Equality" does not mean "OMG you must speak to me in the way I WANT YOU TO". That's retarded and completely shortsighted.
Why should I bother accepting you for who you are, if you try and force me to do so? No chance in hell I am going to - on the contrary, I will most likely start trolling you.
Seems to me the OP is taking all this way TOO personal - most of the people you find online do not care if you are man, woman, gay, trans or dolphin. You are not that important to them - you are a bunch of pixels, and some of those pixels have MORE pixels to indicate they have boobs. That's all.
And by the way, I am a male - and I usually play female characters. Why, you ask? 'cause I like catgirls, like the majority of the playerbase of FFXIV :P
Demoting fictional Sentient Species to the status of Animals is insulting to the sentient species in question. Just because they aren't Humans doesn't mean they are by default animals.
You wouldn't call Vulcan's animals. Nor would you call "Yoda's Species" (yes that is what his species is actually called) animals either (though a case could be made for Ewoks and Wookies I suppose). Therefore you shouldn't classify Miqo'te as Animals just because they have cat-ears and a tail.
I was using a form of Reductio Ad Adsurdum. In this use I was exagerating how many RMT I put on there daily to point out that we have a severe RMT problem in this community and that black listing them is the only realistic way of dealing with them instead of trying to report each and every one of them.
It would be wrong to use "they" in the context the OP is arguing about.
Example:
When I tell someone a joke, they laugh.
In the example above, using "they" is correct since someone doesn't refer to a specific person. It can refer to any one person just not a specific one.
When I tell Jane a joke, she laughs.
In the example above, it is wrong to use "they" since i am specifically referring to Jane.
If I were to use the OP's name as an example,
Kimmy Dee tells a lot of funny jokes. She is a funny person.
It is wrong to use "they" in that context (even the singular they). And the English language doesn't have any word to replace he/she as a genderless term. And as someone said, using "it" is definitely worse.
Eh, that is an argument of semantics more so than wishful thinking. I was using the Philosophical categorization of Sentient vs. Animalistic, not the Scientific classification of Plant vs. Animal.
And if you wanted to really get into that argument, I would bring up the Sylvari race from another game who are a race of Sentient PLANTS!!!
So you would refer to Commander Spock as an "It" even though the characters in Star Trek constantly refer to him as a He?
Ï refer to characters by their gender (or the percieved gender of their name, if I don't know the gender of the character) usually. It's just easier that way. The way I see it, I'm talking to their character and not them per se. If they're guys being miffed about being referred to as 'she' or 'her' because they picked a female character, then perhaps they should think twice, next time they make a new character.
Indeed, and I hardly believe that philosophers of the past took Sylvari into account when defining their Sentient vs Animalistic categorization.
Stick to the science, bro!
And just for the sake of argument, Sylvari are anthropomorphized enough to be considered on par with humans, and thus with sufficiently defined genders to be able to use proper pronouns.
But hey, at any rate English is not the only language in the world - in Italian, for example, there is no "neutral" pronoun - so everything is either male or female, no matter the species.
Been called he a lot of times, I quickly say she and from that point on it stands corrected, not a big issue really.
This. I think people who say it isn't an issue are kind of missing the point :p It IS an issue for Kimmy because she is transgender and it's important to her. If they don't know you're transgender Kimmy, how are they going to know that it's hurting/offending you?! Even if you explained to them you'd probably grief for it :( I'm sorry that you have to experience this, it would probably might be a good idea to run as set group with people who understand and respect you're feelings on this issue. Get yourself an FC or linkshell if you haven't already!
Personally, I'm an older woman playing a girl, if I get called a guy I just gently correct them :) And if I then get hit on it's a "I'm old enough to be your mother, pack it in :p"
Maybe an avatar looks female, but actually the character is a pre op FTM who prefers "he". Or maybe the character is neither a man nor a woman and prefers "xe".
The OP asks people to assume that gender matches appearance stereotypes, but that's hurtful to characters with other types of gender.
It is unrealistic to expect strangers to know how who you are and what your preferences are. They don't know your IRL gender and they can't be sure of your character's gender based on appearance.
Don't be hurt because strangers don't know you. Unless you ask everyone you meet what gender they are and what pronouns they prefer, then admit that it's a bit unrealistic to expect people to go that far.
People make assumptions so they can communicate and play the game, not because they're trying to hurt you.
I would like to point out that there are in fact modern day philosophers (some of whom have a prestigious Doctorate of Philosophy no less) who do discuss modern day philosophical questions. As such the topic of Sentient vs. Animalistic is still very much alive.
Your argument about the Sylvari is valid, though incorrect. Although Sylvari have the appearance of Gender, all of them are barren with only their Mother Tree being able to create new Sylvari. As such they are probably more Bi-Sexual than real world Bi-Sexuals. Their entire view on romance has more to do with Courtly Romance than actual romance as it is understood by other societies in their world. And interestingly enough the concept of Sylvari Anatomy and Sexuality is a very important topic to the fans of that game for varying reasons.
That said, if you refuse to class Sylvari as truly inhuman Plant-based Sentience, then what about the Ent's from Tolkein's Lord of the Rings Trilogy?
Also, your comment about Italian is kind of silly when at least two languages have already been pointed out with Gender-Neutral Pronouns, and I have already pointed out a language (Irish Gaelic) where every cotton pickin' word changes pronunciation and spelling based on whether it is masculine, feminine, or gender-neutral, something that can only be determined by the other words surrounding it in the sentence.
That only works because Kimmy Dee has told us she is female. If we were talking about Alex Ample whose gender we do not know, because they haven't told us, then it is perfectly correct to use "they" and not arbitrarily assign Alex with a gender we can not know. If Alex was playing a female character in an MMO, then I would probably refer to them as "she" because they have presented as female, unless Alex corrected me otherwise, or stick to the neutral singular "they/them"
My argument might be incorrect, but it's how things are generally perceived. I am willing to bet that the majority of players refer to them with gender-specific pronouns, rather than using "it" (and in other languages, "it" is not even an option in the first place), since appearence plays a big part in everything (and moreover, when you create a character you have to choose between male or female anyway...even if they are technically "genderless").
I don't think Ents have that same amount of physical features that make their gender (no matter if they actually have genders or not) easily discernible. But tbh, I think most people are going to use the next thing useful to determine sex: voice. Treebeard is most likely considered male, due to his voice in the movie and...well.."beard".
EDIT:
About your comment about me citing Italian, I am sorry but I am not sure I understood you - there is no "gender neutrality" in Italian - almost every word changes, yes, but it's either masculine or feminine. There is no neutral, ever, in terms of grammar, just like French. The "neutral" is the masculine, usually. I know this does not concern the language we are using now - I just wanted to point out that every language behaves differently :P You can disregard my comment about this, anyway - not really relevant.
But a player's actual gender is unspecified and unrelated to their character's gender? If their gender is unknown, "they" is correct.
Also, why are we to page 15 of this subject anyway? Gents playing cat ladies complain about being assumed to be actual ladies all the goddamn time and no one continues to insist on calling them "she".
It's pretty safe to remove the old ones. If they havn't been banned they wouldn't use that char past the intital spam-fest as they then proceed to make a new one to bypass the blacklist list, so can spam you again. Rinse, repeat. I only keep the last couple of days worth of Gil sellers. Rest, never hear from again.
Meh, the problem your having here is that you are failing to realize just how unimportant physical appearance is for the Sylvari in that game. Yes they refer to each other by the terms of other species. But within their own species you can have a Sylvari who appears female, but who considers herself to be masculine, or no gender at all whatsoever. It truly doesn't matter to the Sylvari what gender they appear, because that is just an appearance to them.
You could be correct about the Ent's, but I got the impression that they were all slow ponderous creatures, and thus would all probably sound like Treebeard did. Also, keep in mind plants (especially tree's) are typified by having access to both gender's sexual organs on the same plant in many cases.
Oh, I understood you. What you need to understand is that Italian is only one language. It is also a relatively young language having it's oldest written forms dating back to 960-963 Common Era. It was predated by Vulgar Latin, which itself was predated by the Celtic Dialect native to that region. Vulgar Latin should not be confused with Classical Latin. Classical Latin being the language that is used by Lawyers and Doctors for their legalese.
It's only an issue if you allow it to affect you so much that it becomes an issue. If it was being done maliciously then that is something totally different. Real Life is only relevant to an in game world if you make it relevant.
Personally I think the OP is being overly sensitive to the "issue". I want players to see me as a fun player who brings enough to the game that I make a good part of the team. Not base their attitude on me having breasts.
As I said before, we are all Gender: Gamer.
Point it, it DOES matter to people who look and talk and refer to them.
They might not care if they feel "male" while having a pair of huge bazongas and cute leafy eyelashes, but other people (not sure about other Sylvari, I admit) would refer to them basing on their appearance because this is what people are used to do.
Problem is, we are hardly used to sentient, genderless (or with multiple genders) bipedal plants in our everyday life - so this is hardly something that can be solved. Everyone has its own views about things, and no one is really right or wrong I fear :P
I perfectly know it's only one language - as said, it was just an example. I know where my language comes from :P
Um.. and that has what to do with wanting to be talked about/referred to with the correct pronouns?
It's not asking to be a special case or be treated differently to suggest that people use pronouns that match a player's presented character or remain gender neutral unless corrected or informed by that player differently. That's just basic human decency. Nothing to do with gaming really. It just comes up because in a social game, people use words, and words matter.
I speak Hebrew IRL and as far as I know there is no pararell to "it" neither. Everything is either male or female, objects too. And the correct way to refer to a few mixed genders in a group is refer to them as the gender that is the majority in that group (IE, a group of 3 female and 2 male refered as female). If you don't know which is the majority then it's acceptable to refer as male.
So a person's gender outside the game isn't relevant... Awesome. Then let's do the logical thing and refer to players according to their in-game gender, unless they tell us it is something different, just like the OP asked in the first place. So glad you agree :)
I hear what you're saying, but yet that is your perspective. What is no issue to you, is an issue to HER, how hard is that to understand? You're not her, so how can you know how things affect her personally, or how she deals with things? Especially since she's transgender, most of us can't even relate. People are different, they respond differently to same issues, have different life experiences... I don't think she's being overly sensitive at all, or that dramatic tbh.
Elvie summed it up perfectly for me
Edit: Agrees with Remilia_Nightfall, logic has no place here loll. It's subjective would you say? I dunno, got a headache and going in search of some pills :OQuote:
It's not asking to be a special case or be treated differently to suggest that people use pronouns that match a player's presented character or remain gender neutral unless corrected or informed by that player differently. That's just basic human decency. Nothing to do with gaming really. It just comes up because in a social game, people use words, and words matter.
Your post makes me a little sad if it's okay to say. Your attitude is a good example of how acclimatised we can become to everyday sexism. It's nice that you will change if you are asked, but the key phrase is "I'm not even thinking". It's just a default behavior for you, and that's the crux of it. Is it so hard to just use the pronoun associated with the character you're interacting with. The game isn't only populated by male characters. I just find it strange I guess. For me personally, "I'm not even thinking" when I choose to use he or she depending on the character gender. See the difference? It's not that hard. If they then correct me, and mention they'd prefer to be addressed a certain way, that is no problem at all! :) But to just use one pronoun exclusively despite the fact that there are female/male versions of all the races in the game, seems slightly weird in my opinion.
Regardless of the gender of the person behind the character, you're incorrectly identifying the gender of the character you're interacting with. To only ever immediately use one pronoun when you might be surrounded by female characters seems kind of odd. We may as well just have only male versions of every race. Maybe that's just me, and that's fine. Though do you maybe begin to see the point I'm making? I'm not trying to attack you or anything, just trying to let ppl see it a different way. I also don't think it's fair to declare to ppl "it shouldn't be a big deal". What a deal is to someone, whether big or small, is for them to decide. Btw the "option more probable" just seems to be a bit lazy to me. :( It means 20% of the time (the numbers you used), you're just flat out wrong.
(just an aside point.. if the game DID only have male versions of any race, then yes I would expect to be called "he" etc. However, not ironically, I probably wouldn't really play such a game in the first place unless I really, really liked some aspect or theme about it. Hi Geralt ;D )
Generally speaking, I don't mind any more - and the majority of ppl are respectful and courteous. For a time it bothered me a bit but it's something that we female gamers get accustomed to (and again, probably something most male gamers never even come to realise or think about). If it's a Duty Roulette and someone refers to me as "he" once or twice, I'm fine with it, because I'm unlikely to see these ppl ever again. I'm there to tank, heal or squish things, it doesn't really matter if I have boobs or not. Sure, if someone is repeatedly using "him" lots and lots of multiple times, I might be tempted to correct them, no matter the circumstances. Though sometimes I don't really like to draw attention to the fact and make it seem like it's a big deal to me, so sometimes I *will* actually stay silent - another effect that we have to deal with. Stay silent or look like you're making a fuss.
Otherwise, the other time I might say something is if I am doing stuff ingame regularly enough with this person that they should probably have the correct idea about me in their mind - but again only if they were using "he" repeatedly, etc. Hopefully that seems reasonable. :) A lot of the time, most of the ppl never draw any focus to gender and I'm totally fine with that.
I would always use character gender until corrected. And I will often use their first name. Someone wrote earlier about shortened versions of their name, and how that might bother them, and interestingly, I've always tried to use someone's full first name, even if in the middle of a fight where it's hectic and their name has apostrophes or is difficult to spell. :D
And here we are, throwing the word "sexism" around once more.
Seriously, if whining about pronouns in an MMO is what "sexism" is about, I think we can safely say that sexism has been finally defeated, since this is hardly something problematic.
And honestly, if you start calling people according to the In Game sex, you are going to guess wrong most of the time, or at least definitely more than going always with "he".
So yeah, going "all male" is still the safest bet, as things stand currently. Get over it, there is no sexism involved, as already said no one cares if you are male or female. You are equally unimportant.
Well to be honest, unless SE enforce a strict policy to that extent. There's nothing you can do to change it. How many of the population you think even bother with the forums? Personally I refer to people by their character name. Or if they put their name as a title, Princess, lady, lord, etc, then i'll call them by their job XD
In spanish and Portuguese, if their are 99 female friends and only one male. They are still given the male collective noun.
It does irk a little that "male" gamers are so closed minded to the fact we are making a noticeable presence in the gaming world. All the G.I.R.L.S and M.M.O.R.P.G things they like to throw out when anyone mentions about female gamers. Maybe it's a sense of insecurity that we are getting involved in something which was, traditionally, a male only hobby. Or fear that we will show them how to play XD