So..Lets talk jobs?

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

Lets face it the whole "lore" of the current class is what 3 quests each it wouldn't take much to rewrite them. Maybe that once the coming threat emerges the class story changes and they take a more noble route for GLA.

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GLA doesn't have to be noble, and holy like a PLD does. GLA has it's own story just as much as PLD does. Theoretically the mechanic in the game requires GLA at a certain to become a PLD if the player chooses to, so with that in mind remember that GLA has to stand on it's own in terms of lore.

It's not hard to put together a quest-line involving the "money-making-entertainer" who chooses to follow the path of a holy knight. We shouldn't have to expect the reworking of the original classes to have an understanding of the advanced jobs.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

1.18 is early July
1.19 Mid August
1.20 end September

Just my guesses... definitely not fact... but I can see the timeline going like that

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I can see that. I think the update schedule will move more quickly once they fix all the core issues they've been working on. The whole "fix the foundation before you remodel" thing.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

1.18 is early July
1.19 Mid August
1.20 end September

Just my guesses... definitely not fact... but I can see the timeline going like that

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I think that is a safe bet. 1.20 I have said will be in September and will mark the one year point. I would be expecting a huge content patch for this IF they get all the fixes in these next 2 patches.

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Originally Posted by SydeBeheln

The earthquake in Japan pushed the original deadline of "end of summer" to about the end of September.

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The end of Summer (in the Northern Hemisphere) is the end of September. I can never figure out why no one ever remembers this. Summer is not defined by school calendars. Summer ends around September 21st/22nd...

Specifically this year: Summer ends September 23, 5:04 A.M. EDT

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

Yeah, I'm thinking that too...I mean if you look at the timeline of how often they've put out patches...

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I'm not sure where you're getting that info from, but since Yoshi-P took over, every "major" patch except for 1.18 has been on a fairly set schedule of once a month.

The only reason we haven't had a large patch in over two months is because of A) the Tōhoku earthquake and B) the supposed magnitude of patch 1.18. They've already stated that future patches post-1.18 should be back on a much more consistent schedule.

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

I think that is a safe bet. 1.20 I have said will be in September and will mark the one year point. I would be expecting a huge content patch for this IF they get all the fixes in these next 2 patches.

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I am absolutely ok with this timeline also

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Hey, gang. I wanted to bring you the official details that Yoshida has recently posted (at crazy hours mind you!) this morning on the Japanese forum. Here's what he had to say on the topic of the upcoming job system.

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didnt get the quote in there but whatever, it says post patch 1.20 so basically jobs arent coming till AFTER patch 1.20, so figure october earliest, possibly later.

all in all means we probably should stop thinking about them. they are pretty far off

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Heh, the one thing my entire being in this game hinges on, and the risk of getting more of the same crap from FFXI is still there. Funny, too, seeing that it'd indicate all those melee discussions on the NA and JP sides on the matter throughout the years have been completely ignored.

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Some of us like XI RDM.

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Originally Posted by Scherwiz

Some of us like XI RDM.

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If Red Mage isn't supposed to be debuffing and refreshing, or taking several hours to solo Genbu, then what should Red Mage be? A jack of all trades, master of none? Or more like XI BLU in that they actually can melee effectively?

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Originally Posted by _C-a-e-r-i-t-h_

If Red Mage isn't supposed to be debuffing and refreshing, or taking several hours to solo Genbu, then what should Red Mage be? A jack of all trades, master of none? Or more like XI BLU in that they actually can melee effectively?

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I do not have an answer for you, nor do I know SE's intent on anything ever, but I liked playing RDM as a support class in XI.

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Originally Posted by Scherwiz

I do not have an answer for you, nor do I know SE's intent on anything ever, but I liked playing RDM as a support class in XI.

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A well geared rdm could play any generic role in XI, like it was meant to do - and excelled at a few of them. Though I understand as to why many people think of it as simply playing that role you described for it.

XI was gear and macro intensive, a thing people seem to want to get rid of. So yea, the question seems to be; How do we make a jack of all traits* with no gear swapping while balancing it to the other classes and jobs? (*Which is the current battle system if you think about it lol)

The short answer is you can't - it loses position to specialised roles.

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Originally Posted by SydeBeheln

GLA doesn't have to be noble, and holy like a PLD does. GLA has it's own story just as much as PLD does. Theoretically the mechanic in the game requires GLA at a certain to become a PLD if the player chooses to, so with that in mind remember that GLA has to stand on it's own in terms of lore.

It's not hard to put together a quest-line involving the "money-making-entertainer" who chooses to follow the path of a holy knight. We shouldn't have to expect the reworking of the original classes to have an understanding of the advanced jobs.

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This. XIVs paladin can be unique in its lore, and still be a "paladin". I hope they have a few writers dedicated to the job introductions - and since they have already stated jobs will come from quests. It seems they have :)

Though hopefully not as lacking as the "sub-quests". hoping for a cut-scene or two atleast... >_<

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Originally Posted by Kam

This. XIVs paladin can be unique in its lore, and still be a "paladin". I hope they have a few writers dedicated to the job introductions - and since they have already stated jobs will come from quests. It seems they have :)

Though hopefully not as lacking as the "sub-quests". hoping for a cut-scene or two atleast... >_<

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I would be absolutely disappointed if job quests were not cut-scene's. They should be up to par with exactly the same quality(if not cooler/better) than the other class story-line based quests. I am hoping for some good variety of quests too, hopefully each jobquest isn't copy&pasted from job to job. Giving higher insight, and a good foundation/back ground to each of the jobs is absolutely key if they hope to rise interest in the job system's lore.

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Originally Posted by Kam

XI was gear and macro intensive, a thing people seem to want to get rid of. So yea, the question seems to be; How do we make a jack of all traits* with no gear swapping while balancing it to the other classes and jobs? (*Which is the current battle system if you think about it lol)

The short answer is you can't - it loses position to specialised roles.

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Not necessarily. Gear was one of RDM's balancing factors in XI; as in, gear currently equipped. That balancing factor was negated due to allowing all that gear swapping.

Had they gone with Caird's idea of layering jobs on top of the classes rather than treating the jobs as specialization paths for each class, I'd say Scherwiz and I would both get what we want. I could set my class to FNC (once that's introduced) and my job to RDM and be a magic fencer. He'd get to set himself as CON or THM and play RDM as support.

Since that's not going to be the case, one of two things should happen. Either you allow RDM to become flexible based on abilities and traits set, with gear sealing the deal (as in, you equip melee traits, melee gear, and melee attacks and you get to stand in the front, equip healer/support traits and abilities and you stand in the back, and so on), or you focus more on the melee mage aspect of Red Mage right out of the box (the way it was done with BLU in FFXI) to keep the same mistake that happened in XI from repeating itself. All of this is provided the class combo that unlocks Red Mage is a mix of GLA/FNC and CON/THM. Personally, I'd be pleased if it was FNC and CON.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Not necessarily. Gear was one of RDM's balancing factors in XI; as in, gear currently equipped. That balancing factor was negated due to allowing all that gear swapping.

Had they gone with Caird's idea of layering jobs on top of the classes rather than treating the jobs as specialization paths for each class, I'd say Scherwiz and I would both get what we want. I could set my class to FNC (once that's introduced) and my job to RDM and be a magic fencer. He'd get to set himself as CON or THM and play RDM as support.

Since that's not going to be the case, one of two things should happen. Either you allow RDM to become flexible based on abilities and traits set, with gear sealing the deal (as in, you equip melee traits, melee gear, and melee attacks and you get to stand in the front, equip healer/support traits and abilities and you stand in the back, and so on), or you focus more on the melee mage aspect of Red Mage right out of the box (the way it was done with BLU in FFXI) to keep the same mistake that happened in XI from repeating itself. All of this is provided the class combo that unlocks Red Mage is a mix of GLA/FNC and CON/THM. Personally, I'd be pleased if it was FNC and CON.

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Don't forget what RDM's signature skills are. The option to use not only white magic, but black magic too, and equip heavier armor with offensive weapons+ shields. Because of this, RDM doesn't master in any one specific skill, but instead has the viability of using all said skills.

Applying that to the FFXIV system, means we need to look at RDM differently than we do in FFXI. People need to pre-determine their role in a party, if they know they are going to be main healers, than set your actions to do so. Same goes if you end up nuking(magic DD). Or luckily for RDM they can even choose to be a front-line job, and utilize a bit of everything offensively, with a tid-bit of support options. Gear switching as the devs have already said, is something signature to FFXI, and is not something they want FFXIV to utilize. Look at RDM along the lines of "what role am i playing today, set my actions for that role, equip the gear for that role, and stick with it till my role has changed/ party ends".

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Originally Posted by SydeBeheln

Don't forget what RDM's signature skills are. The option to use not only white magic, but black magic too, and equip heavier armor with offensive weapons+ shields. Because of this, RDM doesn't master in any one specific skill, but instead has the viability of using all said skills.

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The problem is that doesn't mesh well when they're using the jobs as specializations for the current weapon classes. Hence why I'm more likely to lean towards melee mage being emphasized this time around rather than risk the generalist design and end up shackled to the back row again in the content that matters. Plenty of FF ideas have been adapted to the MMO context. It's about time RDM gets the same treatment, really.

As I see it, RDM is the kind of character that in a fighting game would combo you and then throw you to the other edge of the screen not through a fancy throw or a knockback attack, but instead by releasing magic on you at point-blank range.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The problem is that doesn't mesh well when they're using the jobs as specializations for the current weapon classes. Hence why I'm more likely to lean towards melee mage being emphasized this time around rather than risk the generalist design and end up shackled to the back row again in the content that matters. Plenty of FF ideas have been adapted to the MMO context. It's about time RDM gets the same treatment, really.

As I see it, RDM is the kind of character that in a fighting game would combo you and then throw you to the other edge of the screen not through a fancy throw or a knockback attack, but instead by releasing magic on you at point-blank range.

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You mean, give RDM a better sword skill level so they can actually hit and do damage, but then... oh, instead of En-Spells just being +10 fire damage, make it so you can En- any spell to go off on your next hit. So, like, charge your sword with Fire III and on the next attack it goes stab plus boom.

Worried about Red Mage. I'll die inside if it's pushed into the healing/buffing onry role again.

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Originally Posted by _C-a-e-r-i-t-h_

You mean, give RDM a better sword skill level so they can actually hit and do damage, but then... oh, instead of En-Spells just being +10 fire damage, make it so you can En- any spell to go off on your next hit. So, like, charge your sword with Fire III and on the next attack it goes stab plus boom.

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I guess that works, too. I was thinking more along the lines of what Seifer did during the intro to FFVIII; releasing a fire spell right in Squall's face.

Personally, I'd design the job around mixing magic and melee. Enspells, spells cast through the equipped sword, procs that could be spent to insta-cast a nuke or a heal depending on what's needed at the moment. That sort of thing. But yes, better damage would be part of the deal.

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Hey everyone, this is producer/director Yoshida.

I seem to recall there being a discussion about what each class will become job-wise in a previous thread. While it's still a bit too early to talk about the specifics, I will let you know a bit about the plan. Once it becomes possible to publicize the specs, I plan on making a post in battle mechanics section, but since job implementation will be taking place post-class balance adjustments, it is going to take some time. (Planning for post patch 1.20.)
Matsui, Gondai, and myself, are creating this plan, and the early jobs are based on "party balance."

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Sorry, what??
I remember reading something about the dungeons needing certain roles in order to be compleated, in particular needing a certain "job" and not a simple "class"...
What's the point in bringing the dungeons 2 patchs before what we need to complete them properly? o.O

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Originally Posted by Alcide

Sorry, what??
I remember reading something about the dungeons needing certain roles in order to be compleated, in particular needing a certain "job" and not a simple "class"...
What's the point in bringing the dungeons 2 patchs before what we need to complete them properly? o.O

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I was thinking the same thing..oh well,guess we;ll just have to wait.

Maybe the classes will be enough to win the new dungeons but to really clear all the nooks and crannies or pop all the toughest hidden mobs you will need the jobs?

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Originally Posted by CptGrimlock

I was thinking the same thing..oh well,guess we;ll just have to wait.

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it means that you wont cut it unless you kit yourself out in a specific role oriented gear and skills. IE a half assed tank will die, a half DD will fail, you will probably need someone specifically curing. etc.
Believe it or not you can make optimized roles in this game as is, its just that for fighting the stuff we normally fight its not needed.

the other factor is class rebalancing is coming with this update as well, so most likely the most generic classes will be more focused.
Sorry to the poor mage who will become the cure class.

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Originally Posted by Corrderio

This is a concept I came up with not too long ago:

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/7889/xivjobidea.png

Blue = Class/Weapon is in the game data according to that leaked chart someone made around the time the game was in beta.

Red = New ideas I came up with.

I know daggers are a gladiator weapon, but I'm hoping they drop them form gladiator and use them for another class. I'd go with a scimitar class to, but can't think of a job that would work with scimitars and be different from gladiator either.

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NOW this makes sense. I like this.. haha wow if this is how it worked out.. it could be very cool.

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Originally Posted by Scherwiz

Some of us like XI RDM.

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Same 'crap' from XI? XI is what made me fall in love with the RDM in the first place. /Agree with Scherwiz

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Originally Posted by Drogyn

Same 'crap' from XI? XI is what made me fall in love with the RDM in the first place. /Agree with Scherwiz

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did you enjoy the, a bit of everythingness, or rather the debuff/buffing landing effects specialist, because they could easily seperate the two

I guess with jobs pretty much confirmed to not be in 1.18 that rules out any type of AF gear/weapons dropped from the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Physic

didnt get the quote in there but whatever, it says post patch 1.20 so basically jobs arent coming till AFTER patch 1.20, so figure october earliest, possibly later.

all in all means we probably should stop thinking about them. they are pretty far off

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Well it depends on the timing of 1.19 and 1.20, which I think they are already working on even though 1.18 hasn't come out yet.

But I think you're right, remember that table from "Letter from the Producer X"
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...805-20-2011%29
It lists the content that is supposed to be implemented before the end of the summer, and under the "job system" category, it's written that the system will be developed, but in no way implemented within that time-frame.

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

I guess with jobs pretty much confirmed to not be in 1.18 that rules out any type of AF gear/weapons dropped from the dungeon.

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At initial implementation, sure, but I guess they could adjust the drops eventually

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I guess that works, too. I was thinking more along the lines of what Seifer did during the intro to FFVIII; releasing a fire spell right in Squall's face.

Personally, I'd design the job around mixing magic and melee. Enspells, spells cast through the equipped sword, procs that could be spent to insta-cast a nuke or a heal depending on what's needed at the moment. That sort of thing. But yes, better damage would be part of the deal.

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I see where your coming from. I think BLU was done very well in terms of fighter mage. RDM in ffxi was more likely pushed to being a healer because of it's significant refresh abilities and it's a bit more lasting than whm in terms of MP. However, I can't really see the community not using RDM as a main healer if the situation calls for it, or nuker for that matter either. I would love RDM to finnaly be seen as a front-line fighter mage, with support healing and support nuke.

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Originally Posted by SydeBeheln

I see where your coming from. I think BLU was done very well in terms of fighter mage. RDM in ffxi was more likely pushed to being a healer because of it's significant refresh abilities and it's a bit more lasting than whm in terms of MP. However, I can't really see the community not using RDM as a main healer if the situation calls for it, or nuker for that matter either. I would love RDM to finnaly be seen as a front-line fighter mage, with support healing and support nuke.

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So if it does not excel in any specific role (support DD, support healer, support nuker), why should we need one in challenging situations where roles are clearly defined?

I think XI's RDM was a good jack-of-all-trade for an average party and for soloing, but they needed to find an additional niche that made it shine compared to other jobs so it was desirable in specific situations.

Oh God, don't start bringing the RDM forums from XI over here. Its the worst bunch of whiners imaginable.

As it stands now anyone playing a DoM is a RDM, so if SE implements RDM as a job it is going to have to give it a specific role or gimmick. If BLM is going to be a range nuker/debuff and WHM is going to be a range healer/buff, having RDM with mix of both probably wouldn't work out too well.

Since we want a melee RDM so bad, they could make RDM a melee attacker/debuff by giving them aoe saber/en-element spells that can applied to all melee attackers. These spells could give each attack a slight elemental bonus, absorb hp/mp, or have a chance to enfeeble, etc. Each individual attack isn't as strong as a cure spell or nuke, but cast on enough people the numbers could add up. In terms of party dynamics the RDM would not be as good as a regular attacker in terms of dps, but they bring to the table some decent buff/debuffs that could play nicely with BLM and WHM spells.

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Originally Posted by AlwaysNu

Since we want a melee RDM so bad, they could make RDM a melee attacker/debuff by giving them aoe saber/en-element spells that can applied to all melee attackers. These spells could give each attack a slight elemental bonus, absorb hp/mp, or have a chance to enfeeble, etc. Each individual attack isn't as strong as a cure spell or nuke, but cast on enough people the numbers could add up. In terms of party dynamics the RDM would not be as good as a regular attacker in terms of dps, but they bring to the table some decent buff/debuffs that could play nicely with BLM and WHM spells.

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Gotta be careful when balancing those numbers. Experience has taught me the numbers have to still be decent and not significantly behind the other front-liners, because if people figure out ways to getting that same damage without the RDM in the party, you're kind of boned and back at square 1.

<.< >.>
/sidesteprdmdebate

Well, that is disappointing on the jobs, but brings me to an interesting idea!
It did say post 1.20, which brings to mind a few ideas.

Now, we haven't had any lore or really any mention of jobs yet(..obviously), which means in theory, if they were to give us a new city, that it might make the lore easier to create..Sorta. I'll use the GLA > PLD example.

Lets say..Ishgard comes in, and from the looks of it, it seems as if it could be the big militaryish type city that the grand companies could coordinate and fight off the empire from.(Think Jeunoish) Now, why couldn't a Gladiator persay, make the trip to Ishgard, find some holy enlightenment/decide he wants to join Ishgard's ranks, and be given the title Paladin?

It could work, and it wouldn't neccessarily destroy the story we have for GLD now.

The big question would be, could you fit all the classes(so far) being upgraded in one city? Or perhaps maybe they would have similar quests where they have changes of heart and decide to go down a certain path too? With it being so far away, they could really go about it a lot of ways. As bad as I hate to wait till post 1.20, it would probably be best anyway! Gives them plenty of time to add/change areas and open up lots of new story content.

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Originally Posted by Physic

Sorry to the poor mage who will become the cure class.

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I like being a healer lol

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

I think that is a safe bet. 1.20 I have said will be in September and will mark the one year point. I would be expecting a huge content patch for this IF they get all the fixes in these next 2 patches.

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It was stated by one of the Devs (on this forum somwhere) that the goal was to have 1.20 implement the "job" system. With the exception of tweeks and future jobs and classes being added, that would mark a pretty significant end to a large portion of game updating. I hope this would then open the floodgates to patches with content every few weeks. It still leaves the maps and landscape to be reworked, but they have even stated thats the part that will take them the longest. It wouldnt be unreasonable by my measure to not see any hint of PS3 version until March of 2012. Thats total speculation on my part, but reasonable to believe I think.

Yoshi even stated when taking over as lead Dev that he believed the game would take 1-2 years to fully turn around. I think many (including myself sometimes) get impatient and forget that.

I like being able to swap abilities around and try different combinations of skills. Every job is like the FFXI Blue Mage in that regard.

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Originally Posted by Biggs

It was stated by one of the Devs (on this forum somwhere) that the goal was to have 1.20 implement the "job" system. .

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Rep responded with the translation stating the jobs were post 1.20; hopefully we get more info after 1.19 for confirmation.

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Originally Posted by Urbanwriter

I like being able to swap abilities around and try different combinations of skills. Every job is like the FFXI Blue Mage in that regard.

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Hmm if relating to FF5 I wouldn't say it's like Blue Mage, but FFXI blue mage I guess in a way but main purpose of blue mage is to learn and use monster abilities so kind of different. Current system where you can use any class is like FF5's first job "Yourself" in JP version was Suppin meaning no job. You can use any jobs abilities as long as you had it mastered. Was all around and best job at the end of the game.

Ok, before i go on to the primary point of discussion of my post i wanna talk about jobs. They quite clearly stated they are NOT coming in patch 1.20, but AFTER it. Stop getting your hopes up... Just like these people who ran around saying they would be out in patch 1.18.

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Originally Posted by Chrees

I'm not sure where you're getting that info from, but since Yoshi-P took over, every "major" patch except for 1.18 has been on a fairly set schedule of once a month.

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FINAL FANTASY XIV Patch 1.15 Released (Jan. 18)
FINAL FANTASY XIV Patch 1.16 Released (Mar. 3)
FINAL FANTASY XIV Patch 1.17 Released (Apr. 14)

We've had three real patches since the start of the year.. All the other little patches were tiny tweaks that really... didnt matter at all. IE: almost all of them were adjustments to their new targeting system that NOBODY uses. They just use the default one which was exactly the way it was BEFORE the updates. Aside from that, they had a couple that were nothing but 1-2 bug fixes.

Now lets see how often the game was updated before Yoshida took over:

FINAL FANTASY XIV Version Update (Sep. 23)
FINAL FANTASY XIV Version Update (Oct. 8)
FINAL FANTASY XIV Version Update (Oct. 15)
FINAL FANTASY XIV Version Update (Oct. 22)
FINAL FANTASY XIV Version Update (Nov. 25)
FINAL FANTASY XIV Version Update (Dec. 15)
FINAL FANTASY XIV Version Update (Dec. 21)

Above are the patches from where Tanaka was busy at work. Granted, 2 of those were primarily tweaks to the game and bug fix patches, they still added some new content. Even so, we saw MUCH more frequent updates when Tanaka was director. He didn't "save stuff up" for one big patch, he released content as it was completed so we'd have stuff to do. The last two patches he did (Dec 15th and 21st) are still probably the two most important patches we've ever had on FF14.

I'm not saying Yoshi is doing a bad job or anything, but he is doing a remarkably SLOW job, for sure. Some of his ideas are good... Some... I wish Tanaka was still in that position for.. Because I really don't wanna see them put into the game, and Tanaka wouldn't bend to every single whim of the whiniest forum posters.