Please don't remove Invigorate from BRD ><

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Originally Posted by Battlewrench

Monk buuuuuuffffff mmmmm yeeeesss lemme task your birds tears

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Monks were already good lol. A geared monk parsed higher than any other geared DPS.

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Originally Posted by Leon_Stormrage

Whoosh

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Originally Posted by Elazu

Whoosh

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You're referring to Archer. Not Bard. Much like Scholar is a healer, but branched off a DPS role. Any class can equip any of the cross-class abilites you mentioned. I did say more support role than other DPS. Not that it is pure support.

Might as well say "Why can't my WHM DPS, it obviously has 5 DPS moves with game's most potent AoE!" because of that.

this game is becoming more and more retarded.... in 1.0 you could equip any cross class abilities.... but you had to unlock some of them first by doing quests... and 2.0 limited on what abilities you can equip on jobs.... which made everybody pretty much equip the same abilities... which doesnt make any sense... with the game-breaking armory system.... maybe subjobs should come back? or right.... this isnt ffxi

brd could cure... aoe stoneskin... and i had that ability that expanded the range of songs... i would use that song... to make sure people got my songs... even if they were far away.... and yes it did work...

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

wat.

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Nope. I was specifically refering to Bards.

BLMs, WHMs, SCHs, SMNs, PLDs can not equip the cross-class abilities I mentioned. WARs can equip one of them. And WHMs can DPS...in WP speedruns. :D

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Originally Posted by Battlewrench

Monk buuuuuuffffff mmmmm yeeeesss lemme task your brds tears

Edit : yea I'm maining a monk and know we DPS well but am for the buff cause brd as it stands alienates most other DPS for certain runs.

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I hope you remember this post should the nerf bat ever come for your class.

Funny how all the people gloating about this change don't realize there'll simply be more competition for your classes cause there's the armory system.

This also means Bards who do continue playing will be highly sought after since there will be alot less players willing to play em.

In short, end of the day, if you want to do any endgame content, you'd either need to:
a) be really good at your class, top tier so that you will be picked out of all the other people who decided to re-roll from bards.
b) have a group of friends who enjoy playing classes that you don't
c) become a bard yourself because you don't qualify for either of the above.

Remember people, bards will still be sought after for their utility. Nothing will change. Even if bards did 100 less dps than the other DPS classes now, they'd still be brought to end game content simply due to the current end game content's mechanics.

This change only hurts the process of people even wanting to start playing a bard. Imagine going through a 4 man instance with a gimped DPS with a group of sub-par geared people. It's not going to make things easier for anyone. Heck, if anything, it's gonna make things harder for everyone else BUT the bard player.

If they drop our DPS via cross class abilities they should at least allow our elemental attacks to work with Foe Requiem as compensation.

I personally see them removing LNC from our cross class abilities altogether and replacing it with ACN. Invigorate sustains our AoE damage which they might think is OP. Blood for Blood is VERY powerful which they might think is OP.

The reason I think ACN is because Eye for an Eye, Virus, Physick and Resurrection are all very support-oriented abilities and they want BRD to be more support focused than DPS. They did already give BRD a healer limit break afterall. That said, they should really add in a "support" role to go along with DPS/Tank/Heal ones.

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Originally Posted by Leon_Stormrage

If I am not wrong there are traits for those abilities and the traits are not shared between classes right?
Yes. I am not wrong

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and sch does not have those traits which is not a class correction its a job since u want to be technical so yes your wrong whm/sch are jobs not classes and no traits arnt shared between these to jobs which bot are healers which means only whm can cast better buffs i made my point very clear and every party you will be in will not always have a whm but since u replied and failed to read let me repost this and off the record u only have 2 50s archer and acn u dont havent even unlocked all the cross class abilities on bard seeing your drg is 22............... but yet your in here explaing brd but you barely even played the class is obviously your new to the job and game

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Originally Posted by Steeled

For the record, a pugilist's stoneskin (10% of target's hp) and protect (Only physical defense) is as strong as an SCH or PLD's, because only whm gets traits to enhance them (18% of target's hp, and protect gets magic defense).

So take some of your own advice.

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your rite sir only whm.... it clearly says whm/sch and the point hes tying to make is because brds buffs arnt as strong as whm buffs which i repeat clearly says whm/sch they would never be a reason to use them which is clearly false and understood by anyone who played brd in 1.0 and even now ive been in plenty of parties without any whm the point is supporting is supporting its not about who cast the better buff its about making sure the buffs are up and the healers arnt wasting there mana or time to cast the buff thus the TERM support not only that our support job was to raise anyone who was dead buff them and heal if a healer went down so yes i took the advice and read it but my point is very clear thanks and this is wat i was editing my post with along with that whm are the only ones who can to a better protect and ss but since u had to jump to correct me before i could finish editing it u get my full response lol thanks for the correction though

and this guy doesnt even have archer to 50 where do we keep getting these ppl from

to many ppl in here trying to be mr right and make points and only have 1 job leveled or dont even play brd and never even played 1.0 so u dont even know what supporting is on bard once u guys played every job and u see how bards support and how valuable supporting is u will understand but until then its beating a dead horse bards need to be more supporty we have our damage mitigation, we have our mp management, we have our increase healing aoe buff, we have our tp management, and we can increase element damage and we also have A HEAL/RAISE LB...... we need to be able to raise in battle again we need our sucky as heal again we need to be able to buff the party again and most of all we need harder battles so bard supporting role can truely be noticed and shine

So I've read the thread but I still haven't figured out the answer to this question. What exactly are they changing about BRD?

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

That said, they should really add in a "support" role to go along with DPS/Tank/Heal ones.

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For this, they really need to increase party size to at least 5, which I really wish they'd do anyway. >_< Four is so small.

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Originally Posted by knite23

to many ppl...

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That's why I suggested they're changing it to 30ARC/15PGL+ACN. ACN's Resurrection in battle isn't tied to a trait, Virus will lower incoming damage and parry/block values should enemies get them (at least good in PvP), Eye for an Eye will also lower incoming damage, Physick to toss a crappy heal, 5% HP Cured buff to party from PGL. Would be entirely support focused as far as cross class is concerned but could drop one of them (Physick) for Inernal Release if you need/want more DPS.

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Originally Posted by LemmingKingXXX

So I've read the thread but I still haven't figured out the answer to this question. What exactly are they changing about BRD?

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They're changing what cross class abilities can be set by BRD.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

For this, they really need to increase party size to at least 5, which I really wish they'd do anyway. >_< Four is so small.

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They could still get by with 4, the loss of DPS will be sad but we'll still be able to deal respectable damage, just lower burst damage. I agree though that I would prefer 5 so there are 2 people to use the DPS LB instead of just 1 (or sometimes 0 when you get 2 BRDs currently, ugh).

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

They're changing what cross class abilities can be set by BRD.

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I see, in what way exactly?

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Originally Posted by LemmingKingXXX

I see, in what way exactly?

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No specifics have been mentioned yet. I speculate removing LNC and replacing it with ACN but again its just speculation. They have said they wish to lower BRD DPS though, my guess to facilitate Ranger coming as a second job that gets the burst DPS back.

taking away bfb and internal release would lower the dps by alot.. taking away invigorate would just kill it lol

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

That's why I suggested they're changing it to 30ARC/15PGL+ACN. ACN's Resurrection in battle isn't tied to a trait, Virus will lower incoming damage and parry/block values should enemies get them (at least good in PvP), Eye for an Eye will also lower incoming damage, Physick to toss a crappy heal, 5% HP Cured buff to party from PGL. Would be entirely support focused as far as cross class is concerned but could drop one of them (Physick) for Inernal Release if you need/want more DPS.

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and your rite thats a good observation i still low key want us to get cnj back but you have a lot more valid points on why we would get acn totally agree with u everything your saying is true (im very happy im finally talking to someone in this forum who truely knows something about brd and actually play it)

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

No specifics have been mentioned yet. I speculate removing LNC and replacing it with ACN but again its just speculation. They have said they wish to lower BRD DPS though, my guess to facilitate Ranger coming as a second job that gets the burst DPS back.

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If we don't have any specifics, why are so many people raging back and forth over theories? Hell, with the thread title I had assumed that there was some nuance in the live letter that wasn't present in the Q&A Sparknotes which provided some specific information about upcoming adjustments.

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Originally Posted by LemmingKingXXX

If we don't have any specifics, why are so many people raging back and forth over theories? Hell, with the thread title I had assumed that there was some nuance in the live letter that wasn't present in the Q&A Sparknotes which provided some specific information about upcoming adjustments.

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Well to lower their DPS they have 3 cross class abilities, Invigorate, Blood for Blood or Internal Release. 2 of these come from LNC, 1 from PGL. To unlock BRD you need 15 PGL. LNC is the additional flavor. This is why the speculation comes out that they'll drop LNC altogether and save it for RNG.

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Bard:
We have made adjustments to certain cross class actions that the bards can set.

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The bold makes it noted that there will be more than one ability changed. Of course it is still possible that they will drop the base amount of TP Invig gives, the amount of crit IR gives or the damage buff BfB gives since they are enhanced on PGL/LNC anyway via traits and therefor leaving the subclasses unchanged. But then you're weakening LNC/PGL/MNK/DRG substantially as well until they learn their traits. We'll know on the 17th!

The thing I don't get is why do BLM/SMN have bard cross skills.... there's only 1 useful out of 3 which is unfair compared to the usefulness of the current bard.
Even if bards get the Arcanist cross skills they still gain 2-3 useful raid abilities.

This will pretty much entirely replace summoners in the party because even after the nerf, bards will have their spot in every party again. And if they would make our battle-revive a cross-skill, there's no reason to use a SMN since you got BLMs.

But they are still complaining ._____.;

I want SE to make a good rebalance to make EVERY class useful but not 1 class ALWAYS useful like the bard currently is and probably stay.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

For this, they really need to increase party size to at least 5, which I really wish they'd do anyway. >_< Four is so small.

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and not really 4 is fine 1 dd 1 healer 1 tank 1 support (which i agree 5 would be better) but really the problem is the game doesnt support a real support job meaning the game isnt really hard enough or technical enough that u neeeeeeeeeeeeeed to have a support job if the ak boss had a debuff that drain mana or tp every 30 secs bards would need to use there mp/tp song and if he had a ability that one shot the tank if u didnt have stone skin or eye for eye up bards would need to have stone skin up or eye for eye so the tank wont die and the healer wouldnt need to waste mana on it cause the mp drain and the song can only do so much and if he did a aoe that would actually one shot u which means if the whm fucks up and gets hit and dies we can cast a suky ass heal to barely win the fight or raise that healer cause hes down before the tanks cds where off and he dies these are examples of mechanics that would make a support job valuable in 2.0 like it was in 1.0 these are mechanics that was left out in 2.0 because they nerfed everything and doesnt want any one class to be needed to do any content i understand ppl dont want hard content and its fucked up to need a certain job to do content but u need tanks u need healers u need dd and u should need support which should be bard or (just theory crafting here but they could make smn a support job also but ppl would nerd rage) all in all there needs to be more technical fight these battles need more depth imo

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Originally Posted by Steeled

The defense here is hilarious.

Bard's have a far simpler job than any other DPS.

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I'd like to remind you that your lodestone profile can be viewed by all. Given you're never actually played an archer, let alone a bard it's probably not wise to spout off baseless opinions. I for one, coming from having played monk and dragoon first, was rather surprised to find bard no less complex than playing a healer or tank - and more challenging than dragoon.

Easy to play, but not so easy to play to it's fullest

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Originally Posted by Shikiseki

The thing I don't get is why do BLM/SMN have bard cross skills.... there's only 1 useful out of 3 which is unfair compared to the usefulness of the current bard.
Even if bards get the Arcanist cross skills they still gain 2-3 useful raid abilities.

This will pretty much entirely replace summoners in the party because even after the nerf, bards will have their spot in every party again. And if they would make our battle-revive a cross-skill, there's no reason to use a SMN since you got BLMs.

But they are still complaining ._____.;

I want SE to make a good rebalance to make EVERY class useful but not 1 class ALWAYS useful like the bard currently is and probably stay.

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well smn and blm are full on dd jobs which both do more damage than bard in endgame they have archer for the decrease in hate ability because there supposed to be able to pull hate they have good big burst which brd also has thus the nerf on brd and only really smn can actually play a big supporting role like brd and all jobs have not so usefull cross class abilities its not unfair its balanced i do see ppl take blm over smn because of the burst but a good smn will get picked up without much of a problem ppl prefer blm but i play smn blm and i havent had any issues doing any content ppl want a smn some times and some ppl want a blm edited i forgot Raging strikes which gives u 20% more damage dealt so its hard to argue why blm and smn get archer

While I am a main BRD, and I hate to change things, I think invigorate is the best choice to lose.

It would give me reason to use Paeon.

Now reduce the damage debuff to 10% instead of 20% on paeon and ballad and I'll call it even.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

While I am a main BRD, and I hate to change things, I think invigorate is the best choice to lose.

It would give me reason to use Paeon.

Now reduce the damage debuff to 10% instead of 20% on paeon and ballad and I'll call it even.

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oh come on doc why inv it really only helps us spam aoe more doesnt really give us damage i like aoe pew pew with blm :_(

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Originally Posted by knite23

oh come on doc why inv it really only helps us spam aoe more doesnt really give us damage i like aoe pew pew with blm :_(

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Even if they nerfed that i'd still want a bard for ballad in speed runs, only time i take different class it be smn or another blm for giggles >_>.

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Originally Posted by Rjain

Oh look, someone who hasn't even touched archer telling others that bard is easy.

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You can't counter my argument so you counter my experience. Lovely. I haven't touched blm (well, it's 26), monk, or dragoon either but I have friends that love all 4 jobs (no diehard summoners either) and the cumulative picture is clear.

Every job has things to balance and rotate, and I never said bard was different here. People try to say Titan is the only fight where Bard has the advantage but that isn't true. Reds (any bad aoe/landslide/plumes) can happen to anyone at any time in a lot of fights. Some, like Titan, are hypercritical. You have a more hp than your ranged friends, and have to do a lot less dodging than the melees.

And sorry, don't overhype the difficulty of your job (or most jobs). Bard is played well by some of the dumbest people I have ever met in this game. I'm not calling bards dumb, I'm just not calling them hard. They do have good utility they can contribute, and gosh I love the ones that do, like silencing, mitigating damage, great kiting, but a lot of classes do. You can also play most classes herpyderp style.

Now go back to my armory, or read my forum posts and say "Oh, this is coming from a pld main", yep, it's coming from a pld main. A class I love, but I wish it was more complex too.

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Originally Posted by knite23

your rite sir only whm.... it clearly says whm/sch and the point hes tying to make is because brds buffs arnt as strong as whm buffs which i repeat clearly says whm/sch they would never be a reason to use them which is clearly false and understood by anyone who played brd in 1.0 and even now ive been in plenty of parties without any whm the point is supporting is supporting its not about who cast the better buff its about making sure the buffs are up and the healers arnt wasting there mana or time to cast the buff thus the TERM support not only that our support job was to raise anyone who was dead buff them and heal if a healer went down so yes i took the advice and read it but my point is very clear thanks and this is wat i was editing my post with along with that whm are the only ones who can to a better protect and ss but since u had to jump to correct me before i could finish editing it u get my full response lol thanks for the correction though

and this guy doesnt even have archer to 50 where do we keep getting these ppl from

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whatsamatter? people didn't agree with you the first time you posted exactly the same thing, so you had to hop on the armory troll bandwagon?

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Originally Posted by RyuujinZERO

I'd like to remind you that your lodestone profile can be viewed by all. Given you're never actually played an archer, let alone a bard it's probably not wise to spout off baseless opinions. I for one, coming from having played monk and dragoon first, was rather surprised to find bard no less complex than playing a healer or tank - and more challenging than dragoon.

Easy to play, but not so easy to play to it's fullest

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Oh gosh, I retract everything I said. Oh wait, I don't. Another person who can't counter my argument so chooses to attack my experience.

Full disclosure, I thought I had played archer to 10, but must have been a last beta character. Does that get me brownie points?

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Originally Posted by Steeled

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You call Bard easy but you play Paladin main? I mean you literally need to do nothing at all on Paladin except stand there and get hit and I mean literally nothing at all. Ifrit? Stand still get your ass kicked or be a stun hoe. Garuda? Bit more work, not exactly hard. Titan? Literally nothing at all. Turn 1? MT you stand there and do nothing at all the entire fight, OT you need to shield lob and position then do nothing. Turn 2? Stand there and get hit and provoke every few stacks off the other tank. Turn 3? Lolturn. 4, the same move into position and do absolutely nothing cept flash and pop a cd every now and again. MTing 2 dreads can be a hoe tho tbh.

Where as when I play Bard in Titan, we gotta dodge plumes, dodge slides, dodge bombs, put up Rain of Death, put up manthra and DPS as hard as I can too while you do... Nothing? Another, on turn 2 for example, we do the W formation so I need to pick up rot off 1 White Mage and then pass it to the other, while putting Rain of Death on occasionally, while doing silence rotation or being backup silence, while DPSing at the same time, while keeping an eye on the WHMs and SCHs MP so I can put ballad up for them. Yet you say BRD is easy and you play a PLD? Get out of here. Don't get me wrong, Bard ain't exactly rocket science to play but neither is any of the other classes in the game to be honest.

tldr - Guy calls Bard easy but plays main Paladin the easiest most brain dead class in the game.

Edit: Also before you come at me about what I play and check my profile - I have all classes 50 and all fully geared and relic'd(cept DL on mnk/drg) so I actually have a clue what I'm talking about when I talk about other classes then my main.

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Originally Posted by Steeled

whatsamatter? people didn't agree with you the first time you posted exactly the same thing, so you had to hop on the armory troll bandwagon?



Oh gosh, I retract everything I said. Oh wait, I don't. Another person who can't counter my argument so chooses to attack my experience.

Full disclosure, I thought I had played archer to 10, but must have been a last beta character. Does that get me brownie points?

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u have no argument its not even a job u play lol so your just rambling off wat u think and heard from someone else cause u dont have any exp playing the job and yes you not playing a class/job aka being experience in the class/job plays a big role in u not understanding wat the actual exp bards are talking about and knowing what is consider easy or not i know whats easier to play i have all of them 50 lol and geared but thats to much common sense lets make it simpler have u ever heard of a fast food cashier telling a mail man how to do there job right nooooooo exactly!!! everyones point............ troll somewhere else and im guessing since all u had as a response to what i said is oh jump on the bandwagon and not one counter objection to what i said or why wat i said inaccurate im 100% sure you actually know little to nothing about bard which clearly shows in your comments Rjain and anthonyB have made very clear points u dont even have brd leveled u play paladin and sorry sir ppl dont agree with you or your opinion cause it makes no sense cause u dont even play the job and to the ppl that do u sound stupid go troll somewhere else #OFFICIALLY ROASTED by karma knite

<3 Thank you for taking the bait.

I also didn't realize tanks could do just nothing but stand there in the red. I'm gonna start eating those slipstreams too cuz some bard online says I can.

I love paladin in principle. I love the universal lore, but I said I wish paladin was more complex. It should be.

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Originally Posted by Steeled

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Oh so that's what it's like to be owned and have no come back for it cause I just tore you a new 1, ok. Like I said, Garuda was slightly harder, but I mean common it's not exactly hard to run through her when she casts on you, is it? Paladin in FFXIV is bad and boring and has nothing at all to do. FFXI on the other hand is where the real PLD used to be, to play that and actually be good at it was a totally different story.

"<3 Thank you for taking the bait." Lol'd so hard, you just got served that's all.

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Originally Posted by Steeled

You can't counter my argument so you counter my experience.

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Actually, I countered your argument immediately after that sentence. You can't come off saying bard is simple when you haven't experienced it. They literally have the most stuff to do and look out for out of all the jobs and roles in the game during things like Coil and Titan.

Edit: Hell that sums it up to begin with. You don't even have an argument when you don't have experience lol.

Oh gee, oh gosh, I'm just so speechless.

It's not that hard to figure out what a boon no positional requirements and the ability to keep doing your job while moving is in a game where moving immediately matters.

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Originally Posted by Steeled

Oh gee, oh gosh, I'm just so speechless.

It's not that hard to figure out what a boon no positional requirements and the ability to keep doing your job while moving is in a game where moving immediately matters.

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It has virtually nothing to do with that. I don't care if they nerf bard's damage, just not take away one of its key abilities (invigorate) to reduce the whole purpose of what the class is about to begin with (supportive abilities like Rain of Death).

Using Paeon to make up for it doesn't make it any better either, since there are more useful songs like Foe Requiem and Ballad which go up at key points so you can't waste MP just to keep your own TP up. That makes bard completely useless and just turns it into a broken DPS class and not a support.

This is assuming they're even getting rid of invigorate.

Jumping into a discussion with something as asinine as "the defense here is hilarious bard is easy" just screams inexperience.

hes just a troll ignore him

Remove Lancer sub class for brd is a damage nerf, no doubt. Making them use TP song, mana song more is 20% less damage during this period, witch will be longer if we are forced to use tp song more and Balance it toward needed mp songs (coil if/when needed).
The point most ppl made about bard was how they could move and still dps, i see that point, tho even this, we have low dps compared to other classes past titan in general.
Yes we have songs to help other classes, we have ranged silence, we are moblile (while low dps in coil) and there is a spot for 1 bard in coil grp due to this.

But honest guys, how low u want brd's dps to go, and do u realy think destroying / nerfing its damage will change anything? i dont think grp's will remove 1 brd in coil due to this.
I personaly am afraid SE will destroy Brd to reduce the amount of player's playing this class, to Balance it out, not to a real class Balance toward other classes. (hope im wrong)
Finaly, when another ranged class comes out, ranger/gun class or whatever, u will have trouble finding anyone to keep u toothpick fairy's, and tai chi masters whit tp song and making sure ur healer have mana to heal u, couse u still cant move out of crap.
the nerf is pointless, end of storry.

After reading all the post people have put up I don't believe I saw anyone mention the fact the BRD is the only class that has 5 buffs, more than the other classes. If they take away BfB, you still have 4 buffs to your loadout, still more than any other class out there. My mains are both a Mnk and a Brd so I see both sides of the argument but Brd will still have a good amount of Dps if they only take BfB away. We as Brd just need to adapt and we will be fine.

I'm not sure what it is like on the other servers but I'm tired of seeing "Lf brd + blm only for WPSR". It's a small change in my opinion that won't make a real difference if you are a good player and for those that suck at their class will have to learn how to play and not be carried anymore.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

While I am a main BRD, and I hate to change things, I think invigorate is the best choice to lose.

It would give me reason to use Paeon.

Now reduce the damage debuff to 10% instead of 20% on paeon and ballad and I'll call it even.

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I'm 99% sure paeon does not affect the singer.
Anyhow, invigorate isn't getting dropped. B4B is. SE said they disliked you can skip phases due to bard's spike damage. B4B is having 2 raging strikes which you can also stack.
All buffs up barrage does 1k dmg per auto attack.

They definitely have to many buffs, that is one thing I can agree on. Cracking all the CD's and watching barrage triple crit...damn!!

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Originally Posted by RogueVamp13

l2p

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So the amount of buffs brd have, compensate for the total dps brd have in end game (coil)? And u use one instance, WPSR as a legit reason to lower a classes damage output in the endgame content?
Yeh we need to adapt, we need to lower Our dps further more and make the best of it. It will change nothing beside amount of players playing brd. Whats needed is to Balance classes utility wise, so grp's have more freedom on what classes to take to coil.
And to be honest, if they remove BfB u think WPSR's will change as they are now? hmm yeh right... give other classes more to bring to the table, brd damage nerf will not change anything and it is pointless.
Dont tell People to learn how to play if u even cant see the real issue in this game..

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Originally Posted by NeonC

They definitely have to many buffs, that is one thing I can agree on. Cracking all the CD's and watching barrage triple crit...damn!!

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Keep in mind our attacks don't combo and river of blood is based on rng.