PLD is a waste on anything other than Titan and Coil.

@Giantbane

I understand that.

Perhaps I was being to general. From what I've read (I have yet to do anything challenging with a warrior in the party) WARs need a buff of some kind. However, if what others are saying is true, that you can stack STR and beast mode through a lot of farm status content, then WARs have a purpose after all, even if it is in a limited context.

Give it time, and there will be reasons to use and not to use either on all content. The game definitely needs a bit more balancing. I applaud the OP for thinking outside the box and trying something that seams to be working for him. That does not mean that it is a tried and true method that will work for everyone.

Perhaps its time to just hit 50 and then roll a WAR to see what this is all about.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Wait, wait, wait, guys... Can someone explain again why WAR does more dmg than PLD?

Haven't seen anything on paper that actually points to this.

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sure, although that's really only true while they're "dpsing" and not while they're tanking bosses

Butcher's-Block is 280 potency vs. Rage-of-Halone at 260

they'll also get an Inner-Beast every 2-3 full butcher block combos, at 300 potency, while the paladin is still running through his halone combo

warrior also has their Maim combo for 20% more damage dealt + Storm's-Eye for an effective 11.1% increased damage from slashing (reduces resistance from 100 to 90) compared to paladin's Sword-Oath which adds a 50 potency weaponskill hit to every autoattack (you'd think this means increasing autoattack damage by 50%, but that's not the case as the formula for autoattacks and weaponskills are different, you'll see autoattacks doing ~50 damage and the sword oath hit doing ~37)

paladins have Spirits-Within at 300 potency off the gcd, and Circle-of-Scorn at 250 potency off the gcd to help bridge the gap created by maim + storm's eye vs. warrior's Brutal-Swing at 50 potency off the gcd - their cooldowns are pretty much the same, 30 for brutal/spirits and 25 for circle

essentially, the higher potency on butcher's block and maim + storm's eye beat out sword oath and the higher potency on spirits/circle

but not by much, you're looking at less than a 5% margin tops

which is probably why Shield-Oath reduces paladin damage by 20%, and Defiance reduces warrior damage by 25%

this is why they do the same dps while tanking

although, if we're talking trash packs in dungeons it's way simpler to understand why warrior does more damage than a paladin - Overpower does some damage, Flash does none

that's still not really an argument to use warrior over paladins for faster clearing though, the superior mitigation of a paladin means that your healer will spend more time casting stone2 + holy/bio+bio2+miasma+bane+shadowflare etc.. rather than curing

and scholar/whitemage cleric stance dps blows away paladin and warrior dps, whether we're talking about single target or aoe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

@Giantbane

I understand that.

Perhaps I was being to general. From what I've read (I have yet to do anything challenging with a warrior in the party) WARs need a buff of some kind. However, if what others are saying is true, that you can stack STR and beast mode through a lot of farm status content, then WARs have a purpose after all, even if it is in a limited context.

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Yes, what a good tradeoff:

Instead of being viable for challenging progression content, I can clear Wanderer's Palace 3 minutes faster than a PLD. Totally worth it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

Yes, what a good tradeoff:

Instead of being viable for challenging progression content, I can clear Wanderer's Palace 3 minutes faster than a PLD. Totally worth it.

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It adds up. Also if your grouped with a bunch of 5/5 AF, pink weapon wielding beasts in DF, you can carry them on damage, PLD can't do that.
And pretending that everyone in the game isn't doing that "less worthy" content Monday til whenever they cap out isn't going to make the argument less viable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vmage

that's still not really an argument to use warrior over paladins for faster clearing though, the superior mitigation of a paladin means that your healer will spend more time casting stone2 + holy/bio+bio2+miasma+bane+shadowflare etc.. rather than curing

.

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ehh if a whm is holy-bombing, even as a war, you shouldn't need to be cured much, if at all.

OP = bad troll and shitty player.

DPS difference between warrior and pally is <10% when stats are allocated same way and both players are equal in skill. Pally has been parsing higher when both are in offensive stances and in a party together (Pally benefits from 10% slash debuff that Warrior applies).

So besides being full of shit about Warrios damage, here are some things you can do with vastly superior mitigation/CD's of PLD that will make Warriors cry (yes, you'll always clear instances slower than a group with smart/good PLD):

Tank 3 or more packs consistently for mass aoe; alternatively skip more packs for death/res fast clear strategy. Warriors can't compete on clear times for this.

Or, take an average group. If the PLD requires less healing, that means healers can DPS between heals. Healer DPS > 10% differences between equally skilled WAR/PLD.


It all comes down to the fact that the small damage difference between the two can always be easily made up in damage from other party members when tank requires less healing. Then add all the crazy shit you can pull off with great defensive CD's and superior mitigation.

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Originally Posted by dandelions

stuff

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ITT: People who don't know what they're talking about telling people they don't know what they're talking about.
Really informative stuff there champ.

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Originally Posted by Jonjey

ITT: People who don't know what they're talking about telling people they don't know what they're talking about.
Really informative stuff there champ.

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thats you btw

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Originally Posted by oceanlord

thats you btw

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I don't know much, I just know I outparse DD's constantly while on WAR acting as a DD rather than a tank. I also can eat hits that other DD's never could. I also can hold adds like other DD's never could. I'm just going by the parser, not by bullshit numbers being thrown around in attempts to prove one thing or another like everyone in this thread has attempted to do.

I can't say that a perfectly geared, perfectly performed WAR DD will out parse a perfectly geared, perfectly performed MNK or DRG, all I can say is that my skill leads me to out parse many a mnk or drg, most of which did have better gear than me as I was in peltast/hoplite with full DL STR accessories, while they were in mostly DL mnk or drg gear. Some with relics, some without. Maybe I'm just a really good player, which I'm neither confirming or denying, all I know is that the parser is the only way we have to really determine your status within the party you are in, and I constantly parse first or second, if second usually because the person got to use an LB, which I'm not discrediting, I can't use braver on WAR, that's where MNK and DRG outshine WAR any day. In Titan if I were to screw up, which I very rarely do, and get hit by a bomb or pool, I can easily survive it on WAR DPS.

Most mnks and drgs can not do that. I'm not saying WAR is the best DPS, or the best tank, I'm saying it outshines pld on content in which pld's super defenses aren't really needed. I'm also saying that WAR as a DD is extremely versatile and well rounded for almost any situation.Where MNK and DRG's damage varies greatly with every WS (where one ws can do 200 and the next can do 550, then 180 and then 400 etc, speaking of monk as I don't have DRG but I do have relic/full dl monk.) WAR's weapon skill damage maintains somewhere in the 300-400 region on every single ws, then with buffs I can hit for 500-1000 depending on which ws and if it crits. War is very steady damage over the course of a fight.

It's about what tank and healer combo does more damage. A paladin tank with either WHM or SCH will do more damage as a combo than a War and WHM or SCH. The ability to pull a pack in an AK or something and need zero heals until the fight is done blowing only one CD maybe two, means the healer is essentially another dps. On my WHM I can dps until the pally gets to 1.5k or so then switch out of cleric stance and top him off then go back to dpsing. Holy spam is a fantastic amount of AOE damage and I can do that knowing the paladin will survive. I can't as well with an equally geared War. They simply require more healing.
I run a geared 50 paladin and geared 50 WHM. I've healed both paladins and wars in AK's and WP's and CM's. The group does more damage and clears faster with paladin.

Look up speed clear videos in AK or WP and look for any with a War. Then look at a modest speed run with a paladin. The latter will have a faster clear time.

A waste?
Lol doubt it. Why are you trying to create further dissonance in the tanking community?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jonjey

) WAR's weapon skill damage maintains somewhere in the 300-400 region on every single ws, then with buffs I can hit for 500-1000 depending on which ws and if it crits. War is very steady damage over the course of a fight.

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So first we had 3k heals from inner beast and now we have 1k hits? Dear god.....yeah my monk can do 900 crits aswell with a 1.5sec gcd.
Oh and FYI i am rounding up and down them numbers just to make them look more interesting, but you can take the info as pure fact!

Also you can enjoy your war in AK while i will continue doing my speed runs on my paladin and do the place in 17-20minutes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jonjey

I don't know much, I just know I outparse DD's constantly while on WAR acting as a DD rather than a tank. I also can eat hits that other DD's never could. I also can hold adds like other DD's never could. I'm just going by the parser, not by bullshit numbers being thrown around in attempts to prove one thing or another like everyone in this thread has attempted to do.

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If you're talking about dungeon run parses, I hope you realize that as a tank you have marginally more up-time on enemies because you're going to be the first one attacking; this will skew parser results in any tank's favor during short fights, esp. in the case of classes that need considerable wind-up time (eg.; SMN and MNK) to reach their full potential.

I think the real problem here is this... Wars are boring and PLDs are fun. Who really enjoys the extremely slow attack speeds of the war?... When you can play a PLD that feels much smoother and engaging. Come on... you wars are only playing wars to be different. Admit it. Don't be shy. I like to be different too sometime. :P

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Originally Posted by Jonjey

Lol at all of these people who miss the point entirely. This isn't WAR VS PLD OH MY GOD WARRIOR IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN PALADIN YOU NOOBS!
This is saying that for easier content, the extra defenses of PLD are not needed, where as the extra damage of Warrior is a very nice thing to have. People on these forums enjoy reading in between lines and picking out tiny segments to tear apart to help themselves feel better about whatever it is that burdens them, whether it be in real life or in a video game.

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I've done that on my PLD numerous times. It's not really that hard. Sword of Oath is pretty good.

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Originally Posted by Jonjey

I'm saying it outshines pld on content in which pld's super defenses aren't really needed.

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but that part isn't even true.

in low end content where paladin's defenses aren't needed you can still put them to use - you don't have to ignore them.

you make use of the paladin's defenses by pulling more packs of mobs than a warrior can handle without heals, and have your healer help aoe them down - effectively increasing your group's overall dps more than using a warrior would have

i'm not sure if this thread is just full of people that have only leveled mrd, or only leveled gla, but you should really try both before you try to make these comparisons...

i'll absolutely concede that your ak/wanderers clear will go faster as a warrior if you've just used the duty finder to find your healer though, as i've never encounter a healer in the duty finder that did anything but stand idle unless someone needed a cure - they don't seem to even know what cleric stance is

assuming you have a healer that pushes more than one button every 20 seconds though, you'll clear faster with a paladin simply because they require less heals

to really illustrate what i mean here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRRaUh5uQJQ

now if you can find me a warrior that gets his party through this low end content in 10 minutes that's another story.. meanwhile i'll be "wasting" my time on paladin in low-end stuff as well as high-end stuff.

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Originally Posted by wonka11

You're not serious, right?

Last I checked, my job is to heal up damage, using damage, not simply just mitigate it. Only mitigating damage is a Paladin's job. I'm a reactive tank. Why are you posting this?

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You can't be serious ... You honestly think that the 30 str you are gearing for is more beneficial then the 650ish HP you get from the 30 vit? Go for it bro. Tank turn 5 for me as a MT and get back to me on that when you're getting slapped for 7k+

And if you are talking about speed running lower crap then this entire post is pointless as it doesnt matter what tank you have its all stupid easy and can be done by literally smashing your face on the keyboard

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Originally Posted by Jonjey

and have absolutely no problems main tanking everything mentioned above except for Garuda

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You can't tank garuda because your missing 500 hp from not going 30 vit? O.o wow.... Considering I downed turn 1 last night on my warrior without Bravura +1 specced 30 str with a dps ring on.

Also compare all the DPS gear to the tank gear, same amount of STR on Tank accessories as dps accessories (nearly). There is no reason not to get the tank pieces. The point to stacking STR is to get more parry, if you are not using +parry tank gear you are countering yourself...

Also warrior can tank Garuda with absolutely no problem in WP gear. Because her main attack (slip stream) is 100% avoidable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jonjey

stuff about dps.

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There is no place where a paladins super defences is not needed. That is your flaw.
Simply because there is always more stuff to pull. More stuff -> more effective aoe spamming.

And the argument earlier about healer overhealing because the lower hp pool from a paladin. I dont get it. My paladin has 6.1k hp buffed. My warrior over 7.2k since she hasnt got the relic yet and rocks ifrit weapon.
You can easily let me drop to 30-40% without panicking. How can a healer waste a heal to overheal when he has to top 4k hp? I have yet to see a 5k heal so the healer can say "See if you were a warrior that 1k wouldnt have gone to waste".

I dont even know why this threat is so long. Stop saying Warriors are fine. They are not. They have some serious construction issues. With this thread you basically only hurt your own class.

new record 9 minute WP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8wwzsPcNB4

show me a warrior who can do that
how can a high defense a waste in 4 man content? LOL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by oceanlord

new record 9 minute WP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8wwzsPcNB4

show me a warrior who can do that
how can a high defense a waste in 4 man content? LOL

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So you took a video of 4 extremely over geared players using a very specific strategy with a very specific party formation, with little room for error, in an environment that the average player could not keep up, as a way to say that PLD is better than WAR?
The whole thread I've been talking about Duty Finder and random shout parties, not 4 Relic+1 players with full dl/af2/coil gear doing something that the average player could never do, whether they were on pld or war.
I think that's an awesome video, and I'll probably try doing something like that with my FC using my +1 relic/full dl blm. In a normal run, warrior would be better, but with that one specific, gear and skill intensive routine, a specific routine in which you couldn't use warrior either way as it is a different kind of tank, pld is obviously the only thing you could use.I will mention that I was tanking AK in DF earlier, both DPS were new but the healer we ended up with was very skilled, and on my war in full str tanking everything, he was able to just put regen on me and pop cleric stance to help carry our new dps players. With my self heals and his regen I very rarely needed any heals from him. Which is something that every pld in this thread has adamantly stated would be impossible with a WAR tank. People are so close minded it's absurd.

I saw WAR tanking Garuda all the time. the differnt between good WAR and Bad WAR is that good one know how to dodge slipstream, bad 1 just stand there and take the hit. (well it apply to PLD too, but PLD can afford to get hit just have to sue DEF CD

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Originally Posted by Jonjey

People are so close minded it's absurd.

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Your basis of PLD being wasted in 90% of the content boils down to 100% pug groups that aren't overgeared, in any way, that also refuse to use a paladin's strengths.

Yeah.

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Originally Posted by Jonjey

blahblahblah
I will mention that I was tanking AK in DF earlier, both DPS were new but the healer we ended up with was very skilled, and on my war in full str tanking everything, he was able to just put regen on me and pop cleric stance to help carry our new dps players. With my self heals and his regen I very rarely needed any heals from him. Which is something that every pld in this thread has adamantly stated would be impossible with a WAR tank. People are so close minded it's absurd.

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cool story bro, brag all you want without video and expect us to trust you

tl:dr paladin is still better even on 4 man content
btw, can you show me a video of an overgeared warrior running WP?

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Originally Posted by Jonjey

Which is something that every pld in this thread has adamantly stated would be impossible with a WAR tank. People are so close minded it's absurd.

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first, every player not every paladin - my warrior was 50 over a year ago, my pld was leveled to 50 within the last month

and as far as i can see (admittedly i've skimmed a lot of the trash in this thread) people are refuting PLD is a waste in anything other than Titan and Coil.

mostly because it's an absolutely close minded viewpoint.

noone is going to argue that warriors can't complete content prior to titan, honestly noone should be arguing that warriors can't complete titan and coil either

the point everyone is trying to get through to you is that paladins clear content easier and quicker, whether it's low-end DF stuff, speed ran DF stuff, or endgame raids

I have no doubt that your warrior can perform well in a DF party, but it's kindof silly to think that you clear anything faster than if you had queue'd up as a paladin

aoe scales multiplicatively, if your warrior can handle 1-2 packs with minimal healing, your 2 dps and healer are hitting 3-6 mobs at once - whereas a paladin is doing 3-4 packs, and your 2 dps and healer are hitting 9-12 mobs at once

it's pretty basic, but to spell it out for you: overpower does not do more dps than 3 * (any 3 of: bane'd bio+bio2+miasma/fire2/holy/wide volley/doomspike)

I will concede that if you have DF'd two monks and a healer that refuses to cast anything but heals, you *might* get through faster with a warrior, as monk AoE is pretty horrendous

I'm not really sure that this one very specific scenario makes paladins a "waste" though, if anything that should illustrate how important it is for healers to dps - which they will always do more of with a paladin tank than a warrior.

tldr - noone is trying to claim warriors can't clear stuff, they're just trying to impress upon you that since paladins have this "super defense" as you put it, they can pull more mobs, so your dd's/healer will end up doing more dps regardless of their gear level - and clearing easier (on the healers) and faster to me does not sound like a waste, it's one of the reasons i use my paladin for cm/prae/wp/ak instead of my warrior, they're just better at every aspect of the role than warriors are.

i absolutely look forward to some class balance in future patches though, i'd prefer to play a warrior.. i enjoy the class more, it's just inferior in every way :\

please give Warrior Utsusemi

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Originally Posted by Remn

I saw WAR tanking Garuda all the time. the differnt between good WAR and Bad WAR is that good one know how to dodge slipstream, bad 1 just stand there and take the hit. (well it apply to PLD too, but PLD can afford to get hit just have to sue DEF CD

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I've seen wars tank garuda too. If any tank isn't dodging slipstream they're bad. Regardless of class.

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Originally Posted by Vmage

i absolutely look forward to some class balance in future patches though, i'd prefer to play a warrior.. i enjoy the class more, it's just inferior in every way :\

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I appreciate your openminded-ness.
I admit my initial wording was wrong, pld isn't a "waste" on anything. My overall point is that in your typical DF or Shout party for AK, Prae, CM, or TWP, having a warrior tank will make things go a little faster than having a pld tank. People are making excuses and bringing up absurd scenarios trying to slip through my logic in some way but I really don't see it. Saying a WHM dps is better than having a full time WAR tank in these situations is silly, as a WHM can never -always- dps, but a warrior will -always- be doing damage. People can crunch all the numbers that they want to, and as I've said, pld is obviously and very clearly the better -tank-, it's just my opinion in running things for weeks with pld tanks then leveling my war and seeing the difference first hand that having a warrior tank speeds up the typical, run of the mill party on any of that content. I obviously still think WAR needs a buff in a big way, as it's clearly not cut out to tank the things that -truly- matter, but I simply made this thread to share that from my personal experiences, being on my war I make things go a hell of a lot faster than when I'm on my relic mnk or relic+1 blm with a pld tank. I've personally never seen a pld in DF or shout groups run through and grab multiple packs of enemies at a time, so I don't really think that point of pld being able to tank more packs is all that viable as it rarely happens.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jonjey

I will mention that I was tanking AK in DF earlier, both DPS were new but the healer we ended up with was very skilled, and on my war in full str tanking everything, he was able to just put regen on me and pop cleric stance to help carry our new dps players. With my self heals and his regen I very rarely needed any heals from him. Which is something that every pld in this thread has adamantly stated would be impossible with a WAR tank. People are so close minded it's absurd.

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All I see in this thread is you trying WAY too hard to justify the class you picked when everyone else is in consensus that it needs improvements. You should really work on that inferiority complex you have going as well as the exaggerations.

well.. you're ignoring the fact that paladins do dps all the time too

a paladin doing dps 100% of the time + a white mage doing dps 2/3s the time is more total dps than a warrior doing dps 100% of the time + a white mage doing dps 1/3 the time

the gap between war and pld isn't that wide

it's absolutely bigger on aoe packs, but so is the mage damage :s

Quote:

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Originally Posted by oceanlord

new record 9 minute WP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8wwzsPcNB4

show me a warrior who can do that
how can a high defense a waste in 4 man content? LOL

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Purely based on the pulls and damage taken, any decently geared warrior can make those and survive just as well. I was even under the impression every warrior made those very same aoe pulls in wp.
Won't be as fast with a warrior though, since that paladin pops sprint freely and can still aoe tank fine with flash. As a warrior you don't want to arrive at the next pack with 200tp.

Not saying warriors are fine. But just letting you know any warrior with good gear can do that, just slightly slower.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shougo

Purely based on the pulls and damage taken, any decently geared warrior can make those and survive just as well. I was even under the impression every warrior made those very same aoe pulls in wp.
Won't be as fast with a warrior though, since that paladin pops sprint freely and can still aoe tank fine with flash. As a warrior you don't want to arrive at the next pack with 200tp.

Not saying warriors are fine. But just letting you know any warrior with good gear can do that, just slightly slower.

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video proof?
its not about tp and you can cross class flash no biggie only need a few flash at some point, its about how you can survive with that amount of mob

I like how it boiled down to the OP saying "Wait, no WAR is better than PLD in lower content but in shout/DF only groups, that video doesn't count.........". Good job backing up your statements with evidence and proof; saying "Well my parser shows good numbers on everything before Garuda" doesn't cut it.

I really hope the recently announced WAR buffs bring them up to a level where WAR tanks are actually desired in end game tanking, but since ARR launch up to now, they are just not better than a PLD in pretty much anything. Oh wait, they are better than PLD's in CM/Prae/WP/AK shout and DF only groups, I forgot.

All of these arguments seem to make a statement along the lines of "A warrior can do everything a PLD can do until it can't..." Now I suppose there might be some sort of argument to be made on a class to class basis for a small DPS change on grinding dungeons. Though those arguments ignore healer mana loss, requirements for higher gear on group DPS, and the fact that it has no effective difference on group outcome.

What I find really interesting is that the need for a warrior rework seems to be supported by paladins, healers the devs and it seems to be largely the warrior community that continues to speak against a change. I don't think I have ever been in a community were everyone is calling for a class buff except for the class that is getting buffed.

P.S. If you're assessing your class strengths off of AK and Prae runs I would suggest that you might be completely missing the point by about 100 miles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tugboat

stuff

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implying ak and prae runs don't make up 90% of what everyone in this game does, even elitists.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jonjey

implying ak and prae runs don't make up 90% of what everyone in this game does, even elitists.

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No. I'm implying that AK and Prae are tuned to be doable in lvl 55 gear in a spectrum that goes to 90. Yeah a war can do everything a pld can do for most of the game but he will be straining the group harder to do it and straining himself harder than the pld will be. It isn't balanced and needs to be fixed but not because of pug AK runs and basing arguments off of those runs does not properly display the problems at hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tugboat

No. I'm implying that AK and Prae are tuned to be doable in lvl 55 gear in a spectrum that goes to 90. Yeah a war can do everything a pld can do for most of the game but he will be straining the group harder to do it and straining himself harder than the pld will be. It isn't balanced and needs to be fixed but not because of pug AK runs and basing arguments off of those runs does not properly display the problems at hand.

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You, like every other person defending pld in this instance, are simply not listening to the debate at hand which is that war does more damage than pld therefore is a better fit in easier content. Bringing up things that aren't in question does nothing to sway anyone's opinions. I've said multiple times that pld is a better tank, that's obvious. But war does more damage while still being able to tank those things all the same, therefore being faster. Bringing up epic healer holy spammers and things that never happen in the typical pick up group or duty finder group also will not sway anyone's opinions. We aren't talking about anything other than CM, Prae, AK, or TWP pick up groups here. We're not talking about tanking titan in str gear, or being better than pld in full vit gear in coil. Simply that war does more damage, and for a typical party set up, with a typical strategy, war is faster than pld while still being able to tank the easier content all the same. I have also stated multiple times that WAR does in fact need to be fixed if we ever plan on being able to be good at anything other than what I've mentioned here. This thread was simply -supposed- to say that this content is what WAR shines in atm and the one thing that it is better at than PLD. If one were to qeue up for DF on one of these dungeons, WAR would be the better choice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jonjey

snip

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I believe the general consensus is that it doesn't matter what tank you bring, the content will be completed in the same amount of time, as it is more based on the party's total skill level. With a WAR, the WAR will throw in extra dps (better tank damage). With a PLD, the healer with throw in extra dps (better tank defense so less heals, healer can add dps).

I use DF all the time, almost every healer I get will throw dps with clerics stance.

The title should just honestly be "It doesn't matter what tank you pick pre-Titan".