Tanks/Threat/lowlevels Please fix this.

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Originally Posted by Coth_X

I wasn't saying something completely irrelevant. If you are going to come on here asking that pld be changed just for 4 dungeons worth of low level dungeons and that the need for that change is that you are almost losing hate. Yeah, I'm gonna say something is wrong with your tanking or you aren't communicating with your dps.

No. I'd rather have more class specific mounts, some i90 4man dungeons, and all sorts of other tweaks before a job ability swap, that up until now, hasn't seemed like much of an issue.

You are asking for a tweak that would only affect brayflox, sunken temple, cutter's cry, and 2 lvls worth of haukke manor.

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Haha. It takes nearly no time to adjust this, but the things youre asking for take extensive planning, balancing and programming.

Many people complain that:

1. There arent enough tanks.
2. Paladin is boring.

Funny thing, is you yourself said it was boring, then went on saying how to tank:

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Originally Posted by Coth_X

how many flashes are you doing? And are you doing the multipull flash rotation? Most of the time, the pld runs in flashes once, and then starts comboing. Instead i've always done flash x3, then riot blade combo with a flash interwoven in.

I ask, because I don't have this problem

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Originally Posted by Coth_X

Low level pld doesn't really have hate issues if you are using enough flashes, there is a reason they have a much deeper mp pool than wars

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Originally Posted by Coth_X

If they flash, they'll notice the aggro bars change.

It's just in my experience, a lot of plds only flash once at the beginning. When they need to treat it like OP and flash a few times to build up solid starting aoe enmity.

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Originally Posted by Coth_X

No, you have clearly said, you are almost losing mobs to dps in low level dungeons. Which indicates a problem with your tanking.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though, its been awhile since I played my pld cause its so boring, but I'll do my low level roulette with it and see how I do.

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So clearly.. you say its boring. Why is it boring do you think? Maybe because doing 1 skill over and over in low level dungeons is boring?

The issue is that the job is expecting the player to spam 1 skill not for "4 dungeons" blah blah blah but from level 8 when you obtain that skill (flash) till level 40 when it actually becomes effective.

Its serves you no purpose to counteract your own statement then try to attack mine cause you simply dont understand it.

Again, you yourself backed my own initial statement by saying the skill flash is required to be used consecutively because .. well 1 is not enough (meaning the skill is ineffective rendering you unable to use another skill.)

Having asked them to rebalance flash (which would be actually more beneficial with the issues people are having with the echo buff) would take more time but actually would be a better fix.

thank you for solidifying my request. :)

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

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I know how to pld tank, because that was my first lvl 50. Pld is boring, not because of just flash, but because they have 1 combo. And yes, i'd agree with a flash overhaul. I'd also agree with a 3rd skill to follow riot blade so that plds have a real offtank combo.

BUT YOU ARE ASKING FOR A CHANGE THAT AFFECTS ONLY 4 DUNGEONS IN THE GAME.

Is that clear enough for you? Changing shield oath to lvl 30 does nothing for the first 3 dungeons, or a gld in haukke manor at 28-29 or toto/halatali. It also doesn't affect anything after stone vigil because you'd already have shield oath anyways, nor the huge amount of pre30 hests. Oh and it doesn't do anything to post 50 dungeons either.

Go figure out why you are almost losing hate and then get back to us.

If I'm not having an issue in just those 4 dungeons, and if I can tank anything pre 30 as a pld, which is what roulette usually dumps me in, then this change isn't necessary.

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Originally Posted by Coth_X

I'd also agree with a 3rd skill to follow riot blade so that plds have a real offtank combo.

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I want this as well. Warriors have 2 combos and one of those 2 combo's has 2 separate outcomes so you could almost call it 3. Paladins have 1 and a 1/2 combo's.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

I want this as well. Warriors have 2 combos and one of those 2 combo's has 2 separate outcomes so you could almost call it 3. Paladins have 1 and a 1/2 combo's.

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RoH gives an atk down debuff, while war has a slashing resist and dmg debuff.

Not sure what a 3rd pld attack could do other than just straight dps. Also, if they are true OTing, then that probably means no shield swipe procs for tp management.

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Originally Posted by Coth_X

RoH gives an atk down debuff, while war has a slashing resist and dmg debuff.

Not sure what a 3rd pld attack could do other than just straight dps. Also, if they are true OTing, then that probably means no shield swipe procs for tp management.

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I know what RoH does. I am just saying another full combo would be nice off tanking or not. As a warrior you have more tools and can use the combo based on the situation.

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Originally Posted by Coth_X

Not sure what a 3rd pld attack could do other than just straight dps.

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There was an interesting notion suggested by someone in another thread that I can't remember wherein a new t3 attack provided the PLD with a buff that augmented one of their attacks. The more popular options are Circle of Scorn and Flash. If it were Circle of Scorn, I would expect it to be something like a consumed buff that stacks up 3 times that increases Circle of Scorn damage by 33% (beefs up PLD AoE damage as well as ST damage). If it were Flash, I'd expect it to cause Flash to deal damage (either consumed and give Flash 200 potency or not consumed but lasts 10 secs and give it 100 potency).

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

I know what RoH does. I am just saying another full combo would be nice off tanking or not. As a warrior you have more tools and can use the combo based on the situation.

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Sorry I wasn't intending to state it that way. Context lost through text.

I kind of think that and hopefully they will do it in later expansions, but a job should get traits for its corresponding cross class skills. Pld has a large mp pool, that is largely used for flash, but maybe more could be done with that. Maybe give an enhancement to self cures for enmity, or pld gets a small chance of a free SS if mercy stroke hits etc. I think that would be great for all jobs.

As for pld dps, then the attack following riot blade could be "rune strike" or "mp attack" from the old days that consumes mp to deal dmg/crit. Would prob consume tp if uncomboed, but have enhanced potency but consume mp if used after riot blade, maybe x2 or x3 the mp that riot blade gives or the third attack could increase crit chance against enemy for a small window maybe like 6 secs worth.

Idk, something more than 1,2,3 (._.)

Considering I've done speed runs of low level dungeons as both PLD and WAR (Also GLA and MRD), I've found no issues with holding aggro in low level dungeons as long as you are geared up and appropriate leveled. Main reason I lose hate is when I have say level 15 gear in a level 25ish dungeon, am level say 24 and the DPS are level 27 level synced with i90+ gear. In other words, undergeared and low level compared to max level and overgeared.

Now, I will admit, I don't have Shield Oath yet. However, in dungeons up to the Shield Oath able dungeons, I've had no issues holding aggro outside of what I mentioned. I've had plenty of DPS try to tell me to "Use x skill" (When I obviously don't have it) or to "use this instead" when the problem was the gearing or levels.

But for any dungeon where I have appropriate gear and have a level that matches the party, I don't lose aggro. I mean, I could bother to hold aggro even without, but that would slow the dungeon progress to a crawl if I have to wait half a minute after every fight.

Edit: I'm not saying that it is easy, but it is possible. The real problem is that there really needs to be some way to really hold aggro-especially as a paladin. Right now, you really have to know the class to hold aggro-especially early levels. If I stop tanking for even a day, I can easily lose aggro until I relearn aggro control. Heck, if I use WAR for too long without using PLD, I end up forgetting how to tank as a PLD since the two really tank differently.

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Originally Posted by Coth_X

If you are going to come on here asking that pld be changed just for 4 dungeons worth of low level dungeons and that the need for that change is that you are almost losing hate. Yeah, I'm gonna say something is wrong with your tanking or you aren't communicating with your dps.

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You are implying that there isn't a problem. There is. There is a huge problem, and if a fully geared guy is *almost* loosing threat in his parties when level synced - how well do you think it's going for those who AREN'T overgeared and AREN'T experienced as he is? I'll tell you: It's not pretty.

There's a lot of comments in here about rotations and sequences and things but the problem is that the snap threat is too low to be effective. On trash, you have no ramp up time. So yes, you can do your little flash, then start your sequence to get to your third weaponskill that does a lot of threat - but that's a terrible design and it's why paladin tanks are struggling. AoE snap threat needs to be a lot better than it is on this content, and it's also why he isn't seeing the same level of issue on the end game content. There is more ramp-up time for him to use all his abilities.

SE doesn't have to go full-on retard ez mode for low level tanking, but to argue that everything is 100% fine as it is... well that's disingenuous at best.

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BUT YOU ARE ASKING FOR A CHANGE THAT AFFECTS ONLY 4 DUNGEONS IN THE GAME.

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You know there's still a lot of people playing those dungeons, right? People leveling up as well as high levels in duty roulette? Why is this not worth fixing?

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

You are implying that there isn't a problem. There is. There is a huge problem, and if a fully geared guy is *almost* loosing threat in his parties when level synced - how well do you think it's going for those who AREN'T overgeared and AREN'T experienced as he is? I'll tell you: It's not pretty.

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People are seriously blowing this out of proportion. At low levels you will never see DPS/heals as a sliver of emnity on the bar like you will at 50, allowing you to derp around for the last half of a boss fight. I leveled both gld/pld and mrd/war to 50 on seperate characters with poop gear and I didn't have problems tanking or holding hate. I am not an amazing tank, I am not some sort of emnity genius with precise formulas and a strict methodology of how to hold hate. I just used flash/overpower appropriately and cycled my emnity combos on mobs if appropriate while tabbing through to make sure no other mobs were about to go nuts on someone. If doing that is too much for someone to handle at low levels when a stray mob isn't even a big deal, how well will they handle end game? IMO, low level tanking -needs- to be harder in order to train future tanks to keep everything under control. They will be in the habit of doing so when things start getting real in dungeons, and a stray mob with a potent AOE can really mess up a run.