What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

One very interesting point about this Live Letter:

It was just confirmed the last civilization of the "Dead Ends", the "Ra-La" were - basically - the future of the Ancients, nonetheless, regardless of outcome.

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Originally Posted by TheRod

One very interesting point about this Live Letter:

It was just confirmed the last civilization of the "Dead Ends", the "Ra-La" were - basically - the future of the Ancients, nonetheless, regardless of outcome.

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I mean, that was obvious, I literally have no idea how anyone could think otherwise. Were the masks, robes and mass conformity not super obvious?

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Originally Posted by Sicno

Listening to the responses in the Q&A at the live letter... so far it's obvious there's things they never bothered to plan/write and there's also more nonsense.

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I was also disappointed to learn they put so little thought into the finer details of the lore. Half of the responses to the questions were to come up with your own theory.

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Memories from the final days passed from Emet to Zenos as you would pass DNA? (Yay more calvinball, memories edition!)

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I couldn't believe that either.

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Venat consciously deciding to not sunder Emet, Lahabrea and Elidibus? But the rejoinings... the calamities... and the mass murder of the people on the Source and the shards... Did she really LET them do all that?

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I didn't think Venat could be painted to be any worse, but here we are. Confirmation that her outreach was meaningless, she always intended to sunder everyone. Confirmation that she purposely spared Emet and did her best to maintain the WoL's timeline, which would include all the rejoinings (and thus I feel I can say that my theory of her non-intervention on the First because that was part of 'the plan' is substantiated).

Yoshi-P also compared her to Hermes, something we've been saying all along as well. At the end of the day, she was just another Ancient (ironically with the same lack of respect for life that people criticize every other Ancient for) who abused their power because they could. I can't even say I'm unhappy because at least Yoshi-P admits it (as well as being aware that some people view her as a villain, which I will also take as confirmation that the Japanese audience had the same issues we did). It's just a shame that the narrative depicts her as some kind of 'goddess of goodness'.

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Originally Posted by TheRod

One very interesting point about this Live Letter:

It was just confirmed the last civilization of the "Dead Ends", the "Ra-La" were - basically - the future of the Ancients, nonetheless, regardless of outcome.

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I don't think that it makes much sense since Venat was possessed of information that would have helped the Ancients avert such a hypothetical fate and it would have occurred so far in the distant future that I'm not entirely certain why it'd even be an issue given that the Sundering also resulted in the extinction of the Ancients. Except through genocide rather than free choice.

If nothing else, Yoshi-P conceded that Venat, much like Hermes, abused her power to get the result that she desired. He also pretty much acknowledged the controversy surrounding her character and hard confirmed her permanent death. Let's hope it sticks, eh?

Apparently the story was still being written very close to the deadline and we had a delay as well so I suppose I'll never be convinced that plans didn't change course drastically part way through development.

On a more pleasant note, my question about the Garlean radio music was answered - we're getting it as an orchestrion roll in 6.1!

A civilization reaching a natural end is different from saying, "well, it will end like this eventually, so it makes no difference if I hurry things along." Yes, maybe the Ancients would have ended up like the Plenty, but that's immaterial in discussing the things Venat did. Like, you know, Sundering all of existence, but making sure Emet-Selch survived to carry out the Rejoinings, lol.

People does not seem to get that Ancient has different culture and morale code than us.
Even in our current time, you can call any one a fool that expecting Chinese or Japanese to thinks the same as North Americans.

I kinda like how this whole "story thread' is getting so deep that were discussing the nature of morality and ethics. Im not being sarcastic, its just that its been very interesting to see how much people read into things with Endwalker's story.

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Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

A civilization reaching a natural end is different from saying, "well, it will end like this eventually, so it makes no difference if I hurry things along." Yes, maybe the Ancients would have ended up like the Plenty, but that's immaterial in discussing the things Venat did. Like, you know, Sundering all of existence, but making sure Emet-Selch survived to carry out the Rejoinings, lol.

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25,000 years in the future, G'ralphinaud XXVI the Cyborg God-Emperor is satisfied after merging the last stubborn inkling of seperate culture into the Grand Eternal Alliance. At last, the brightest and bestest future has been reached. With a proud sigh and a bite of his cheeseburger, he presses the button that detonates the Lifestream.

But they had hope, and it was beautiful, so that makes it okay.

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Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

A civilization reaching a natural end is different from saying, "well, it will end like this eventually, so it makes no difference if I hurry things along." Yes, maybe the Ancients would have ended up like the Plenty, but that's immaterial in discussing the things Venat did. Like, you know, Sundering all of existence, but making sure Emet-Selch survived to carry out the Rejoinings, lol.

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It's a head scratcher for sure. I must admit, I raised an eyebrow when it was revealed that Venat played a large part in the existence of the Rejoinings as they were often cited by some as an 'unforgivable' act that could not possibly be excused in any way, shape or form.

I do wonder if that stance will soften now that Venat is ultimately the one responsible for their existence...

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I don't think that it makes much sense since Venat was possessed of information that would have helped the Ancients avert such a hypothetical fate and it would have occurred so far in the distant future that I'm not entirely certain why it'd even be an issue given that the Sundering also resulted in the extinction of the Ancients. Except through genocide rather than free choice.

If nothing else, Yoshi-P conceded that Venat, much like Hermes, abused her power to get the result that she desired. He also pretty much acknowledged the controversy surrounding her character and hard confirmed her permanent death. Let's hope it sticks, eh?

Apparently the story was still being written very close to the deadline and we had a delay as well so I suppose I'll never be convinced that plans didn't change course drastically part way through development.

On a more pleasant note, my question about the Garlean radio music was answered - we're getting it as an orchestrion roll in 6.1!

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First of all, this is a nice thing about the Orchestration Roll. Congratz, and a nice accomplishment to have a question answered! Thank you.

And further, indeed, we may dislike or like, agree or disagree - Necessary to point, as well, that Yoshida made also a very clear point she "remains" (metaphorically, of course, as her being and soul are gone) with the Warrior of Light, by means of the Blessing of Light, that is "forever" to which Naoki paraphrased: "I'd like to think the Blessing of Light stays forever like she said: 'my love will be with you forever, my dearest children'".

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's a head scratcher for sure. I must admit, I raised an eyebrow when it was revealed that Venat played a large part in the existence of the Rejoinings as they were often cited by some as an 'unforgivable' act that could not possibly be excused in any way, shape or form.

I do wonder if that stance will soften now that Venat is ultimately the one responsible for their existence...

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I've said I didn't think Venat cared about the shards and that she created more than necessary as fodder for the Ascians, but to have that essentially confirmed? I'm still coming to terms with it myself because that was my most pessimistic view of her. He says we're not supposed to view her as a villain, but how could you not? She escalated from being the antagonist of the Ancients to all life on the reflections as well.

Edit: I forgot to mention that Yoshi-P also indicated that Hydaelyn wasn't sundered, only Zodiark, so I've no idea what's going on with that dialog from the Watcher on the moon.

It would have been nice to be given a 'Blessing of Darkness' from Zodiark to balance things out. Perhaps as a last desperate act before he was taken over by Fandaniel.

I was hoping that our character would be 'depowered' in some way to better allow for a more grounded adventure. Our character already has the Echo, to tap into for all sorts of weird and wonderful plot conveniences so I'm not too sure why we need the Blessing of Light, specifically, to remain.

Especially since it seems counterproductive of the goal of allowing the Sundered to stand upon their own two feet which...was supposedly Venat's goal with the Sundering...?

Meh.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

If morality is subjective, then wouldn’t it be impossible to say that someone is wrong for acting against others?

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With all these philosophy debate, I think we inherited the spirit of the Ancients, or at least Sharlayan's students XD

Jokes aside, personally for me, yes morality is subjective. Just like any other things which values are determined by human perception. Unlike us human, animals do not have "right" or "wrong". All they follow are their biological needs and instinct to ensure the survival of their species. I'm not a philosopher, far from it in fact, but if I were to use an example it would be our law system. Law is supposed to represent or based around general consensus of society's morality, but as we know it law can (and did) change over time, and can be different across different culture. What is wrong in one country can be innocent in others. Of course, there are things that the majority of humans can agree upon, yet there will always a minority who thinks otherwise.

To be completely honest, I think even our so called "morality" isn't that much different from animal's tendency to ensure their species survival. One of morality function's is to keep society from falling apart even if the action is against our best interest. In order to make sure of peaceful time, it's important for the people to have their needs (basic and emotional) to be fulfilled, otherwise sooner or later there will be conflicts among society. Might that be the reason why "morality" seems like it is on "our side" and "the right thing to do"? This is just a personal musing though, not really related to the discussion.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Pandaemonium? The Omicron? Ultima? Some other alien race? Whatever the hell we’re gonna be working against for the next 10 years?

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We don't even know what really happen in Pandaemonium, except for Hesperos going mad over his devotion to Lahabrea. And considering we only do Pandaemonium because Erich ask Themis to not contact the convocation for their help, I doubt it is something that requires them to use Zodiark.

Omicron was already on their way having existential crisis over being the strongest race, or was at civil war. Plus the only contact we got from them are thousand years later after the sundering, and it's because omega followed midgarsomr to Etheirys, not because the Omicron intentionally going at war with us.

Ultima, as in Ultima the High Seraph? It was summoned by Ajora in order to defeat Mullonde, something that may never happen if Venat didn't sunder the world.

And "whatever the hell we're gonna be working against for the next 10 years" is a feeble argument considering we don't really know what kind of other aliens existed, whether they're violent or no, or if they're that powerful either that the Ancients need to use Zodiark.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

And just because they’ve managed so far says nothing about what the future holds. The Ea did just fine for longer, until they didn’t. The Omicron did just fine, until they didn’t. The dragons did perfectly fine, until they didn’t.

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I could ask the same for the sundered. After the walking plot-armor that is the WoL (a.k.a us the players) died, hundreds or thousand years later, what stopping them from making the same mistake as the Ea/dragons/omicron? Or the Ancients themselves even. We know from the Allag Empire era that the sundered isn't that much different from the Ancients. They seek prosperity, then they stagnated. Or perhaps they will go in the direction of the second world of "Dead Ends".

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I couldn't believe that either.

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Oh no..., are we Assassin's Creed now? Next collab confirmed?

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Yoshi-P also compared her to Hermes, something we've been saying all along as well. At the end of the day, she was just another Ancient (ironically with the same lack of respect for life that people criticize every other Ancient for) who abused their power because they could. I can't even say I'm unhappy because at least Yoshi-P admits it (as well as being aware that some people view her as a villain, which I will also take as confirmation that the Japanese audience had the same issues we did). It's just a shame that the narrative depicts her as some kind of 'goddess of goodness'.

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I'm actually quite surprised at how open Yoshi-p is regarding his opinion on Venat. It's very clear that he perceives Venat as "morally gray" at best, or "necessary evil" at worst. To even make parallel with alphinaud's criticism of "you don't get to judge humanity on your own" (to Emet back in 5.0) and how this also applies to Venat as well. Though unfortunately that doesn't represented well in the game, with zero characters questioning Her method or intention. I wonder why is that. Is it simply due to not enough time? Or is it because different ideology between Yoshi-p and Ishikawa?

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

A person acting against the majority is just when the cause is just, wrong when the cause is wrong.

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And who or what decides what is just or unjust? Who or what decides what is right and what is wrong? Who or what is the absolute?

Ultimately it is up to everyone as individuals to decide what is right or what is wrong, and then physically enact their will onto reality. You could chest thump all day long about whether a particular act is right or wrong, but unless you can enforce what you think is right then you're just blowing smoke.

Morals are ultimately subjective. You can't show me a single atom of justice. There is no molecular structure for righteousness. There is no physical law in reality that prevents one man from destroying another on a whim.

In our world, in order to judge others, all we need do is make it part of our own individual moral system that our system is superior. Then we judge without second thought. It becomes our imperative to judge them, because we make it so.

You can see these differences firsthand everyday. Look in on a family who is deeply Christian with completely home schooled children. They look down on the world and judge it harshly. Then look to a gaggle of LGBT college graduates rooming together in a large city apartment. They also look down on the world and judge it harshly, but for completely different reasons.

If you were to ask either of these families what was right and wrong, they would have different answers. And then, living in completely different ways, they could each succeed in life reinforcing their personally held beliefs about what is right.

So, again, who or what provides us with an absolute moral system?

Dude, I thought this was just going to be a Q&A, not a "the devs are going to go and personally confirm every single one of Teraq's worst fears about the story of Endwalker and what it very obviously implied about the Ancients being bad and not deserving a future" session.

I'm pouring one out for the most tragic character in the entire saga, who doomed his entire civilisation and people with a time loop that would influence Venat to take the actions she did, and lived for 12,000 years apparently hiding his amnesia well enough for Emet-Selch to only ponder it circa Stormblood according to the Tales From The Shadows.

Also, I loved that Zenos's dreams actually amounted to nothing and that Fandaniel's musing on Emet-Selch was just "Hmmmm... I guess Emet-Selch fucks". I mean. Obviously, Danny. Look at the guy.

Honestly it's a real shame Final Fantasy XIV's storyline stopped at 5.3. I would have loved to see where it would go from there. Ah well. I guess we will never know.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

I could ask the same for the sundered. After the walking plot-armor that is the WoL (a.k.a us the players) died, hundreds or thousand years later, what stopping them from making the same mistake as the Ea/dragons/omicron? Or the Ancients themselves even. We know from the Allag Empire era that the sundered isn't that much different from the Ancients. They seek prosperity, then they stagnated. Or perhaps they will go in the direction of the second world of "Dead Ends".

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I'm sorry Kozh, but you can only draw Dead Ends / Ultima Thule parallels with the Ancients. I don't make the rules, all right?
(Also, let's not forget to mention the first world of Dead Ends: Emet explicitly made note that the Sundered were susceptible to disease, after all. I see no reason why such a scenario wouldn't simply start as soon as tomorrow.)

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I've said I didn't think Venat cared about the shards and that she created more than necessary as fodder for the Ascians, but to have that essentially confirmed? I'm still coming to terms with it myself because that was my most pessimistic view of her. He says we're not supposed to view her as a villain, but how could you not? She escalated from being the antagonist of the Ancients to all life on the reflections as well.

Edit: I forgot to mention that Yoshi-P also indicated that Hydaelyn wasn't sundered, only Zodiark, so I've no idea what's going on with that dialog from the Watcher on the moon.

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I can't. That's because I know Venat is the former Azem, but she might as well be the current Azem since Emet says she still carries on with her work after leaving office. She works closely with the people in her travels and in the field. For many lifetimes beyond ours. Beyond most ancients - since retiring the Convocation means you did everything you think you could have done, which generally takes years upon years since ancients can live forever.

And her conclusion after watching all that was that: No the ancients did not have the ability to contend with Meteion in their current state. This is the conclusion of someone who worked with and understood people more than what we can imagine.

As an Ancient and as Azem, she is duty bound to save the Star, but most importantly, the lives of the star. But for the result to save the lives be a sundering for an attempt to beat Meteion? To slowly power them back up via calamities of the rejoining? All the while knowing she will die in the process? That must have meant she really saw no other option for the Ancients, even with the lifetimes of built up belief that mankind (and by extension the Ancients) can find their way forward. Not unless she makes one.

What she did may have been evil, but it was a necessary evil. She forced people to suffer, and she knew it was not going to be good. But she did it anyway, so people could defeat Meteion in a place where emotions dictate reality - where only having aether will be useless. The vast entirety of the Ancients had failed Meteion's test the moment they gave into despair and created a blasphemy just from the song of oblivion - which is just a weakened version of pulsing dynamis from across the ends of the Universe. There was no way they could've even enter Ultima Thule without immediately suffocating in a place where emotions dictate reality with their current emotional resolve while keeping their aetheric manipulation intact. This also applies to Zodiark, as he is a being composed entirely of aether and the will of the Ancients who surrendered to Despair to return back to their 'paradise'.

This thread is a metaphor for the storyline, because it's just going in circles, achieving a time loop of despair roughly every X week.

Can I blame it on Dynamis?

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

(Dynamis and Meteion)

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I don't think any one here ever even implied Ancients themselves could just waltz into Ultima Thule. That is, after all, the single consistant rule of this game of Calvinball: Ancients can't play because we needed at least one reason to justify Venat's genocide.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

Dude, I thought this was just going to be a Q&A, not a "the devs are going to go and personally confirm every single one of Teraq's worst fears about the story of Endwalker

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That about sums it up for me. This Q&A has swiftly become FFXIV's Burning of Teldrassil—the event that convinces me I don't want to keep paying to play this game. And it's a shame, too. I really did enjoy Endwalker's story.

I suppose, more than anything, I'm just disappointed that we're basically meant to not think too deeply on...quite a lot of elements related to the story. That's a pretty stark contrast to what drew me into the world of Etheirys back in the days of ARR and HW.

I also liked the gritty realism. It was closer in style to FFVI, FFVII, FFXII and FFIX which had consequences in spades and many moments where the protagonists genuinely failed in a way that led to lasting aftereffects.

So much of the story in FFXIV, however, seems to involve gifting the Sundered every possible advantage to ensure their victory but then condemning every other faction for not having access to the same set of highly contrived tools.

If nothing else, I think it's pretty telling that both WoW and FFXIV are arguably suffering from similar problems in regards to propping up a specific and very controversial character at the expense of every other faction and character in their respective games.

At least in Venat's case, the writers actually opted to kill her off. We'll see it if sticks since they've said characters were dead before only to have them pop up again in the future.

The next Live Letter will cover 6.1 in a bit more depth and give us some insight into the next story arc. I'm reluctant to get too invested though. There's just too much of a risk that I'll come to like a particular character only to see them given a less than satisfactory conclusion.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

This thread is a metaphor for the storyline, because it's just going in circles, achieving a time loop of despair roughly every X week.

Can I blame it on Dynamis?

I don't think any one here ever even implied Ancients themselves could just waltz into Ultima Thule.

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Azem and Dynamis were both mistakes. As much as I liked the personal tie to the main villains, all the endless wanking about Azem and how this apparently makes you infinitely noble, justifies anything and how you're so quirky and *holds up spork* randum XDDDD is tiresome. The Seat of the Mary-Sue, which bloated many players' egos to even greater heights. Also telling they were evasive about any questions about the Unsundered 'us'. Probably don't want to step on any toes, understandably.

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Originally Posted by Skyborne

Also telling they were evasive about any questions about the Unsundered 'us'. Probably don't want to step on any toes, understandably.

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Yeah, I thought that was a given, honestly. I wouldn't want the Twitter antis to have an aneurysm at the thought that Unsundered Them might have had a hand in saving anyone on the Convocation, or had an intimate relationship with any of them. I'm not this much of a terrible human being!

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

That about sums it up for me. This Q&A has swiftly become FFXIV's Burning of Teldrassil—the event that convinces me I don't want to keep paying to play this game. And it's a shame, too. I really did enjoy Endwalker's story.

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I think this game has reached the point where due to its MMO nature, will no matter what wont please everybody in terms of how its story was handled. Me personally I have been enjoying it for what it is and the personal emotional journey between my WoL and the main cast. Obviously story beats throughout this big arc has been hit or miss with some folk. Some people didnt care for Minfillia, some people really got attached to Ishgard and its plight, others didnt care for Ala Mhigo, others made the First their new home and others couldnt care less for the final Zenos fight. Certain moments that occur everyone will have their own interpretation for their meaning and its just difficult to gauge everybody's expectations, especially due it being an MMO story. Its clear that the writing team while they had a set end goal for this story, they didnt have every single detail set in stone from the beginning (that would honestly be too ridiculous to believe) and perhaps we should scale back a bit with how we should take the story presented here. Personally Ive been treating FFXIV as one of the best jrpg stories to date......but a jrpg story is still a jrpg story at the end of the day, you're going to have your usual tropes and themes.

Yeah it sucks that for some folk they wound up getting too disappointed for what was supposed to be the big pay off, although I think its a bit too much to think that we've gotten the next Burning of Teldrassil, thats being a little dramatic.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

That about sums it up for me. This Q&A has swiftly become FFXIV's Burning of Teldrassil—the event that convinces me I don't want to keep paying to play this game. And it's a shame, too. I really did enjoy Endwalker's story.

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I sympathize. Unfortunately, EW is not the first nor will it be the last of a series I loved that ended in a way I hated. I'll have to see what happens going forward. As long as I'm 1) not being preached at, 2) not being gaslit, and 3) no more protagonists win everything without breaking a fingernail while the sympathetic antagonists you don't even really want to fight are utterly defeated, then... do I ask too much? :P

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I suppose, more than anything, I'm just disappointed that we're basically meant to not think too deeply on...quite a lot of elements related to the story.

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I don't know if it's possible for me to enjoy lore on a surface level without any deep diving, but it doesn't seem I have a choice. There's no point in thinking about things the writers/devs don't even consider. I actually feel kind of stupid now sourcing dialog for debates because it turns out most of it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

That about sums it up for me. This Q&A has swiftly become FFXIV's Burning of Teldrassil—the event that convinces me I don't want to keep paying to play this game. And it's a shame, too. I really did enjoy Endwalker's story.

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Heh.

I heard about that particular controversy. I had long since quit WoW before that point but for similar reasons. I was getting pretty tired of the characters and races I rooted for consistently being given a raw deal, often through increasingly contrived plot devices and a lack of meaningful consequences for the characters responsible for their plight.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Heh.

I heard about that particular controversy. I had long since quit WoW before that point but for similar reasons. I was getting pretty tired of the characters and races I rooted for consistently being given a raw deal, often through increasingly contrived plot devices and a lack of meaningful consequences for the characters responsible for their plight.

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I suppose I'm lucky in that while I've been playing Warcraft since I was a 6 year old girl who thought the Trolls with warpaint and big technicolor mohawks were cool (yes, I just played with cheat codes on and made my own maps), I've never really cared for WoW's storyline, I just find the lore of its world mildly interesting (or used to, anyway).

WoW lost me when it started to become apparent that they had stopped caring about entirely solo queue players like me, so around WoD. Thankfully, I turned to FFXIV, which to this day, still feeds me the weekly Valor cap through random queue faceroll instanced content I crave.

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I don't know if it's possible for me to enjoy lore on a surface level without any deep diving, but it doesn't seem I have a choice. There's no point in thinking about things the writers/devs don't even consider. I actually feel kind of stupid now sourcing dialog for debates because it turns out most of it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

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I mean, they have been literally doing that since the beginning. A lot of story details dont get explained or show up with relevance until waaaay later. One example I had was back in Heavensward with Unukulhai or however you pronounce his name. After the whole Warring Triad ordeal he sorta just...stayed at the Rising Stones and I was disappointed how it seemed that he wasnt brought up ever again for what I considered an important lore detail concerning the nature of his world. Especially with Shadowbringers's story. It wasnt until post-Shb that he was finally given a reason via an optional side quest and was content to see the game giving him a conclusion. Its obvious that the writers dont necessarily plan out every story bit from start to finish rather they go with "post it" notes in their story details for when they could use it for something later or not. Sometimes even changes within the structure causes for planned bread crumbs to stay in the back burner or go in a different direction (aka SB Hildibrand clearly looked like was set up for him to show up in the First but they decided against it at the last minute). Its just how it is or at least how I see it. Not trying to discredit you for trying to get attached to every lore bit but probably temper your expectations a bit. Or not since you're giving up on FFXIV's narrative at this point.

Just my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

I suppose I'm lucky in that while I've been playing Warcraft since I was a 6 year old girl who thought the Trolls with warpaint and big technicolor mohawks were cool (yes, I just played with cheat codes on and made my own maps), I've never really cared for WoW's storyline, I just find the lore of its world mildly interesting (or used to, anyway).

WoW lost me when it started to become apparent that they had stopped caring about entirely solo queue players like me, so around WoD. Thankfully, I turned to FFXIV, which to this day, still feeds me the weekly Valor cap through random queue faceroll instanced content I crave.

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I favoured playing Blood Elves and Night Elves. I suppose if nothing else there's a certain irony in it. I left WoW due to becoming disillusioned with how the various Elven races were treated as an annoyance for doing everything possible in order to survive and for disallowing themselves to be subjected to genocide.

It took me a while to find another MMO that was to my personal tastes. FFXIV lured me in with what promised to be a more mature and consistent narrative. I liked both the Garleans and the Ancients as far back as ARR and yet here we are - with both the Garleans and the Ancients being treated as an annoyance for...doing everything possible in order to survive and for disallowing themselves to be subjected to genocide.

Q: "What about all the Sundered Ascians that remain? We can count Zodiac signs, you know. We're still missing Altima, Deudalaphon, Halmarut and Pashtarot AT LEAST."

A: "Wow, I did not expect people to care so much more about Ascians than we did!"

I know. I've played through Endwalker as an Ascian fan, so I know.

I can't help but notice the /r/ffxiv Discord took down emoji/smiley reactions to the Q&A. I think they got tired of me reacting with :eyeroll:, :yawn: and :yikes:.

I was hoping the Q&A would improve my feelings about certain elements of Endwalker's story, but it kind of did the opposite.

It's not enough to make me completely lose faith in the writers like some other people seem to have, though.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

I suppose I'm lucky in that while I've been playing Warcraft since I was a 6 year old girl who thought the Trolls with warpaint and big technicolor mohawks were cool

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I mean. They are. I bought Warcraft 2 back when it released from one of those Scholastic catalogues, and I was blown away by how cool the Horde was in general, but especially the Trolls and their leader, Zul'jin. You could write out the entirety of his story on a sticky note, but it worked for me back then and it still does now. Even the part where he eventually became a raid boss in WoW: The Burning Crusade, where the Amani (Forest Trolls) were hit hard with the villain bat and Zuljin was made into a raid boss... it worked for me, because it was entirely in line with who Zuljin and his people were.

This, for me, is more like the rapid downward spiral most WoW characters take once they have any degree of prominence. It's not even a uniform drop in WoW's case, and this drop has been sharper and more painful than any of them. But to rattle off a few names: Tyrande, Vol'jin, Sylvanas, Lor'themar, Varok Saurfang, Thalyssra, Jaina, and Wrathion are all characters I once sincerely enjoyed seeing in the story. They were among my favorites. And invariably, each of them has been run into the ground in ways that defied explanation.

My favorite character in Endwalker? It is—or was—Venat. But from what I'm seeing of the Q&A, I was completely wrong about her character, and everything I did like about her was actually a carefully framed lie on the writers' part, made to convince me she was something other than what they intended all along.

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I mean, they have been literally doing that since the beginning. A lot of story details dont get explained or show up with relevance until waaaay later. One example I had was back in Heavensward with Unukulhai or however you pronounce his name. After the whole Warring Triad ordeal he sorta just...stayed at the Rising Stones and I was disappointed how it seemed that he wasnt brought up ever again for what I considered an important lore detail concerning the nature of his world. Especially with Shadowbringers's story. It wasnt until post-Shb that he was finally given a reason via an optional side quest and was content to see the game giving him a conclusion. Its obvious that the writers dont necessarily plan out every story bit from start to finish rather they go with "post it" notes in their story details for when they could use it for something later or not. Sometimes even changes within the structure causes for planned bread crumbs to stay in the back burner or go in a different direction (aka SB Hildibrand clearly looked like was set up for him to show up in the First but they decided against it at the last minute). Its just how it is or at least how I see it. Not trying to discredit you for trying to get attached to every lore bit but probably temper your expectations a bit. Or not since you're giving up on FFXIV's narrative at this point.

Just my 2 cents.

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I think this is the main reason why I’m still interested to stick around.

It’s clear they’re pretty self aware with how the community perceives the story for the most part. So when they go off the mark they know they just need to pin a note and eventually address it.

My only reservation is that it’s kind of a shame that 6.0 was designed to be a big climax to the game but didn’t stick the landing for a few of its most important characters. Especially when the most important one with issues (Venat) is killed off now. So any kind of retcon about her is likely going to be hell to not make awkward, if they even bother.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

I mean. They are. I bought Warcraft 2 back when it released from one of those Scholastic catalogues, and I was blown away by how cool the Horde was in general, but especially the Trolls and their leader, Zul'jin. You could write out the entirety of his story on a sticky note, but it worked for me back then and it still does now. Even the part where he eventually became a raid boss in WoW: The Burning Crusade, where the Amani (Forest Trolls) were hit hard with the villain bat and Zuljin was made into a raid boss... it worked for me, because it was entirely in line with who Zuljin and his people were.

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I'm not getting over Blizzard never including any Dark Trolls in WoW (save for one Twilight Hammer mob model in Hyjal... maybe?) and just telling us in BfA "oh yeah they all dead lol". I thought it would have been cool to include them as the bulky, dark purple/gray-skinned Trolls with primitive culture but cunning who made their home near one of the holiest landmarks of Night Elves but... nope.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

My favorite character in Endwalker? It is—or was—Venat. But from what I'm seeing of the Q&A, I was completely wrong about her character, and everything I did like about her was actually a carefully framed lie on the writers' part, made to convince me she was something other than what they intended all along.

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Oof. While I disliked her personally, I have to say I'm even more confused now over what their intent was. I had always thought they would make her more openly of a villain, kind of in-line with FFXII (Where's the iconic line, by the way? you can't include Venat and not have the line, or at least a XIV-lore-complying variant of it. I don't care how unsubtle it would have been. This is the Final Fantasy theme park MMO, I'm here to get my head bashed with cameos and references), but the game seemed quite intent on painting her as a hero, as your character drops any pretense of finding her suspicious after Elpis, and, well, the minion, Y'shtola and Emet praising her, etc. But now they've doubled down on making her responsible for everything, and... I guess we should just be okay with YoshiP saying she's morally ambiguous? I mean, yeah, I'd say that is putting it mildly.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

It's not enough to make me completely lose faith in the writers like some other people seem to have, though.

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Well, I don't want to speak for anybody else but I've personally been raising an eyebrow in response to some of the story decisions for a while now. As far back as Stormblood.

Perhaps it would be easier to stomach and overlook if FFXIV had more going for it in general, though as it stands it decided to make the bulk of its focus shifted towards the MSQ's.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Well, I don't want to speak for anybody else

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Good point; I don't want to look like I'm speaking for every other Ascian fan by rollin and hatin on just about everything in EW that wasn't atmospheric post-Soviet depression. I do know there are probably loads of others who liked it, otherwise I wouldn't have felt so despondent and isolated after finishing EW and browsing through social media.

(edit)

https://i.imgur.com/WBki9wZ.jpg

Okay so I think I ... kind of see Capricorn in the absolutely-not-lion mask. The lion's eyes would be the horns much like Mitron's, and its snout and nose the overall shape of a goat's head with the goatee.

I suppose thinking it would have tied into one of the main villains of EW, that we coincidentally first saw in Garlemald where Gaius might have operated before meeting him in the Burn, was... too much common sense. It's the one Ascian we knew literally nothing about (and still don't, not even from Elpis!) instead. Consider my expectations well and truly subverted again!

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Originally Posted by Teraq

Good point; I don't want to look like I'm speaking for every other Ascian fan by rollin and hatin on just about everything in EW that wasn't atmospheric post-Soviet depression. I do know there are probably loads of others who liked it, otherwise I wouldn't have felt so despondent and isolated after finishing EW and browsing through social media.

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You're definitely not alone. I've spoken with a decent amount of people with similar opinions.

I also don't think it helped the game to quietly shuffle so many key developers over to FFXVI. It could very well be the cause of so many mixed messages being sent. I was confused by the announcement that someone else had taken over from Koji in regards to the English localisation back in ShB.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

Memories from the final days passed from Emet to Zenos as you would pass DNA? (Yay more calvinball, memories edition!)

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Oh right, I just realized.
Emet can pass Zenos memories of the Final Days via Allagan technology. Allagans learned how to basically send memories of their life as a clone to another. It goes to say that Emet, who had a hand in founding the Allagan Empire (and bringing it to its ruin) should be able to do something similar. Allagans are pretty well known in experiments in that regard, and passing DNA is not unheard of (which is how G'raha, even though he isn't of Allag descent, possesses Royal blood through the highest level of Allag Technology). IIRC, the Princess of Allag - Salina - used Allagan technology to infuse her DNA into G'raha's ancestor so that his family could restore the tower as a beacon of hope.

So yeah... it's quite possible Emet was trying to recreate memories using The Final Days as a catalyst for people whose souls were born after the event. He could have failed entirely, but having the powers of the Resonant being so similar to the Echo could have affected the soul to the point where they were able to get his memories of the Final Days by peering through the DNA. A far outcry to be sure, but not implausible based on what we know about the Echo's abilities and how the Resonant is based off the Echo.

I didn't watch the live letter, but dang. Some of these reactions I've read here and on the bird app have painted some pictures. Seems like a lot of folks were letdown, while others looked for and highlighted any positive note they liked.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Oh right, I just realized.
Emet can pass Zenos memories of the Final Days via Allagan technology. Allagans learned how to basically send memories of their life as a clone to another. It goes to say that Emet, who had a hand in founding the Allagan Empire (and bringing it to its ruin) should be able to do something similar. Allagans are pretty well known in experiments in that regard, and passing DNA is not unheard of (which is how G'raha, even though he isn't of Allag descent, possesses Royal blood through the highest level of Allag Technology). IIRC, the Princess of Allag - Salina - used Allagan technology to infuse her DNA into G'raha's ancestor so that his family could restore the tower as a beacon of hope.

So yeah... it's quite possible Emet was trying to recreate memories using The Final Days as a catalyst for people whose souls were born after the event. He could have failed entirely, but having the powers of the Resonant being so similar to the Echo could have affected the soul to the point where they were able to get his memories of the Final Days by peering through the DNA. A far outcry to be sure, but not implausible based on what we know about the Echo's abilities and how the Resonant is based off the Echo.

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Are you really gonna try that hard to rationalize something in the lore after tonight's live letter? You're probably trying to fill gaps the writers didn't even consider or dropped plot points.

It all feels pointless now. Next patch they'll retcon or create new rules for memories just to fit with the writer's whims on that particular day.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Oh right, I just realized.
Emet can pass Zenos memories of the Final Days via Allagan technology. Allagans learned how to basically send memories of their life as a clone to another. It goes to say that Emet, who had a hand in founding the Allagan Empire (and bringing it to its ruin) should be able to do something similar. Allagans are pretty well known in experiments in that regard, and passing DNA is not unheard of (which is how G'raha, even though he isn't of Allag descent, possesses Royal blood through the highest level of Allag Technology). IIRC, the Princess of Allag - Salina - used Allagan technology to infuse her DNA into G'raha's ancestor so that his family could restore the tower as a beacon of hope.

So yeah... it's quite possible Emet was trying to recreate memories using The Final Days as a catalyst for people whose souls were born after the event. He could have failed entirely, but having the powers of the Resonant being so similar to the Echo could have affected the soul to the point where they were able to get his memories of the Final Days by peering through the DNA. A far outcry to be sure, but not implausible based on what we know about the Echo's abilities and how the Resonant is based off the Echo.

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This actually makes sense. Fandaniel would pick up on it because, Amon and stuff.

I mean, this doesn't really touch on why they bothered making a "Meanwhile in Garlemald" scene about it just so they would go on to do... nothing about it. But that is indeed an explanation probably better than my "Fandaniel was musing on Emet sexy times" shitposting.

Simply the notion that an Unsundered having offsprings with mortals is confirmed to engender hybrids with oddities like huge stature and this memory stuff has ... implications. What if these hybrid humans turned out to have untold potential? Shouldn't they have been careful about things like this? How many little Emets and little Lahabreas* have been running around these 14 parallel worlds??

*sorry Eli buddy, but I just can't see it with you because I'm projecting my own orientation on my favorite chararacter, and as such I'm quite convinced he's been busy studying the blade for 12,000 years instead of having sex with mortals