Cash shop confirmed

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Well who would have thought, people panicked and went "Fear mongering and the world is ending mode" for no reason.

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So something that could have easily been stated last week, has nothing to do with us? The questions and concerns that are asked here are coincidentally being answered albeit short answers...? If you watch the stream, they tell us to come to the forums and voice our concerns. SE has their own PR team to do damage control.

Woah, this thread is still going on.
People are still upset about stupid minions & vanity stuff.

Crazy.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

..well and there are plenty of gamers that have actually played other games and been in this genre for years that have seen this happen repeatedly. It's not the first game to intro a cash shop and say it won't be P2W.

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And yet people still forget it only becomes "P2W"when the game goes Free to Play and Still has to make money somehow.

I don't have a problem with a cash shop per se, but what bugs me is that it messes with world consistency - as if the bazillion lightning clones weren't enough.

remember when yoshi was still hesitant to include the remade FF VI intro music because it wouldn't fit the world theme or whatever? if this becomes the next lightning returns ~SE speshuru fanservice~ carnival of garbage I'll be out as well. enough of buster swords and nicely cut up flower ladies, they have their own games.

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Originally Posted by IgnisFatuus

I don't have a problem with a cash shop per se, but what bugs me is that it messes with world consistency - as if the bazillion lightning clones weren't enough.

remember when yoshi was still hesitant to include the remade FF VI intro music because it wouldn't fit the world theme or whatever? if this becomes the next lightning returns ~SE speshuru fanservice~ carnival of garbage I'll be out as well. enough of buster swords and nicely cut up flower ladies, they have their own games.

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(The Magiteks in ARR are from VI's world. We're getting Triple Triad and the Golden Saucer, 2 things from FFVIII and FFVII's world. It's too late to be concerned about fan service. That's just ignoring most of the creatures and bosses in this game being from other FF games, namely III, XI, XII and XIII.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

(The Magiteks in ARR are from VI's world. We're getting Triple Triad and the Golden Saucer, 2 things from FFVIII and FFVII's world. It's too late to be concerned about fan service. That's just ignoring most of the creatures and bosses in this game being from other FF games, namely III, XI, XII and XIII.

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FF games have interrelations since the beginning, but that's not the same as print-money-by-numbers fanservice. a new take on the gold saucer or chocobo racing isn't going to hurt as long as there is an in-game backstory for why they were established in eorzea (time fissures like a certain pink-haired demon doesn't count as backstory).

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Originally Posted by Negotiator

So something that could have easily been stated last week, has nothing to do with us? The questions and concerns that are asked here are coincidentally being answered albeit short answers...? If you watch the stream, they tell us to come to the forums and voice our concerns. SE has their own PR team to do damage control.

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People could easily have just waited and see how it turns out instead of crying havoc on something with so many unknown variables. That would have worked just as w elland the forum wouldn't have had the amount of fear mongering and doom post that it had.

love how theres so many defending enix just saying its vanity items thats just how they start these cash shops it probally will have vanity only items for a while but when the infrastructre is in game then they are free to put in p2w stuff later like so many other games have done

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

And yet people still forget it only becomes "P2W"when the game goes Free to Play and Still has to make money somehow.

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Not necessarily. There are cash shops out there in games with a subscription option... like EQ 2... and WoW has been getting creative with instant level features...

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Originally Posted by Zohnax

If you want your official evidence, go pay for the premium stream and watch the keynote for London. Pretty sure Yoshi said, (again), at least two to three times, no pay to win.

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What he says and what he dose is 2 different things. Yoshi has said 1 thing but when the community was in an uproar he came back saying he wasnt clear or aka flip flopped on the issue at hand.

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Originally Posted by reillyblair

love how theres so many defending enix just saying its vanity items thats just how they start these cash shops it probally will have vanity only items for a while but when the infrastructre is in game then they are free to put in p2w stuff later like so many other games have done

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Originally Posted by maxthunder1

What he says and what he dose is 2 different things. Yoshi has said 1 thing but when the community was in an uproar he came back saying he wasnt clear or aka flip flopped on the issue at hand.

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There's just no way to please the whole lot of you.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

(The Magiteks in ARR are from VI's world. We're getting Triple Triad and the Golden Saucer, 2 things from FFVIII and FFVII's world. It's too late to be concerned about fan service. That's just ignoring most of the creatures and bosses in this game being from other FF games, namely III, XI, XII and XIII.

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The Magitek Armor originated in FFVI, but it's worked into FFXIV's story and fits the kind of technology that the Garleans regularly employ. There are quests to explain how you come to obtain it, and it features heavily in the final dungeon and cutscenes. They found a way for it to make sense and belong in FFXIV. That's a huge difference from FFXIII's Lightning just showing up in the game for no reason at all, and injecting the game with FFXIII costumes and weapons. Magitek was a well-implemented reference that became its own thing, whereas Lightning is a sleazy promotion stunt that adds nothing to the game. You could very well have never played FFVI, and assume that Magitek came from FFXIV. But without knowledge of FFXIII, everything involving Lightning in this game makes no sense and is confusingly unfitting.

Hopefully when Golden Saucer shows up in FFXIV, it can be similar in spirit to the original but not just the exact location from FFVII dropped into FFXIV without rhyme or reason.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

There's just no way to please the whole lot of you.

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I def agree. Not everyone will be happy with the changes; however, we should be able to express our concerns either way. ^^

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Originally Posted by Dwill

There's just no way to please the whole lot of you.

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When you say something that the whole world reads you better damn well keep your word and not change it or say that you meant something else aka flip flop on whatever the issue is.

For that matter if you as an individual say something you need to keep your word as well, when you decide to change what you meant regardless of who it is or even if it is a group it makes you/them/they or who ever look really bad.

Yoshi is in full producer mode here. He sees the murmur of discontent running through the community on the basis of the cash shop announcement, and he is rushing to soothe our fears. Not by saying "We've decided to change direction," of course; rather, by saying, "Trust us, we've got your best interests at heart, we won't let you down. Trust us, don't worry."

Of course, we've seen this before.

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

Personal Housing

While I cannot give a specific date on when personal housing will be implemented, I can say that prices will be completely separate from free company housing, and, naturally, far more affordable.

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Originally Posted by LittleArrow

I def agree. Not everyone will be happy with the changes; however, we should be able to express our concerns either way. ^^

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I definitely agree that people should bring it up if they have concerns about a particular issue. However, there is a a difference between voicing your concerns and go the doomsayer way to spread ignorance and ignore logic. Like for example, your thread is the best example of how concerns should be brought up. While I do not agree with you on this particular issue, I think your thread does a good job at voicing the concerns of those against this issue and I think a few people could take a page out of your book.

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Originally Posted by maxthunder1

When you say something that the whole world reads you better damn well keep your word and not change it or say that you meant something else aka flip flop on whatever the issue is.

For that matter if you as an individual say something you need to keep your word as well, when you decide to change what you meant regardless of who it is or even if it is a group it makes you/them/they or who ever look really bad.

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Business 101: Communication issues WILL arise at one point, there is no avoiding it. Also, plans can and will change at the last minute and the best you can do is try to minimize the damage a.k.a damage control.

Not that I agree with how housing was done (I personally think it was done terribly bad) but discrediting the guy who seemed actually genuinely sorry about how the miscommunication and who is doing an actually pretty good job at being involved with the community when it's absolutely not necessary from him to based on one mishap is a really stupid thing to do.

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Originally Posted by Fatestorm

Yoshi is in full producer mode here. He sees the murmur of discontent running through the community on the basis of the cash shop announcement, and he is rushing to soothe our fears. Not by saying "We've decided to change direction," of course; rather, by saying, "Trust us, we've got your best interests at heart, we won't let you down. Trust us, don't worry."

Of course, we've seen this before.

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Not targeting you specifically but I think pretty much everyone who says the guy shouldn't be trusted due to the housing event is being hypocritical. Every single person at one point will make a mistake in communication and I'm pretty sure none of you would like it if that person just started telling everyone that you shouldn't be trusted.

[QUOTE=Dwill;2535182]snip

I understand some issue's or changes need to be made, there comes a point when these changes or issue's seem to arise with everything. This has become a pattern with Yoshi and he either needs to not say anything on the issue or make good on what he has said in the first place with no excuses. At this point in time trust has been broken and he needs to find a way to fix it.

Also I am trying to find the interview where yoshi said he would not break 1.0 to make 2.0 but we see how that turned out. So far no luck.

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Originally Posted by Fatestorm

Yoshi is in full producer mode here. He sees the murmur of discontent running through the community on the basis of the cash shop announcement, and he is rushing to soothe our fears. Not by saying "We've decided to change direction," of course; rather, by saying, "Trust us, we've got your best interests at heart, we won't let you down. Trust us, don't worry."

Of course, we've seen this before.

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The problem is that the lack of specifics get easily misinterpreted, and the translation doesn't help. For example, in the Japanese version of the post, he said that that the pricing for personal housing would be way cheaper than the prices of free company housing they just released (今回公開となった「フリーカンパニーの本拠地としてのハウジング」), and this was in the context of explaining that housing prices would otherwise be dropping. (The translators at the time surely didn't consider that little qualifier could radically alter the interpretation of the sentence 9 months later, and be re-quoted ad nauseum as clear evidence of a "lie".) But even with that little clarification, what does it mean? Nobody knows. And that lack of clarity opens the door to lots of speculation and, then, anger.

With this particular conversation, there already was a misunderstanding caused by one prominent summary being confused over a detail, and implying that the new cash shop mounts/minions would be available in-game. He didn't actually say that, just that they would continue to introduce in-game minions. But now that people have that in their head, there will be anger because "I thought he said...!" Again, lack of clarity and clear communication (in this case caused by the sort of grapevine/telephone effect) causes wrong expectations and then disappointment/anger.

But anyway, it is pretty clear that, for the moment, they see this as a supplement of vanity-only items. But there's never any telling what the future will bring for sure, or even if he'll remain director/producer forever. We'll see what happens.

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Originally Posted by polyphonica

The problem is that the lack of specifics get easily misinterpreted, and the translation doesn't help. For example, in the Japanese version of the post, he said that that the pricing for personal housing would be way cheaper than the prices of free company housing they just released

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That does make a bit of a difference, yes. On the other hand... I haven't really kept track of housing prices at all, since I wasn't in a position where I could even hope of having that much money back when FC housing was introduced. So I'm not quite sure -- other than the gradual devaluation of plots and the extra "you guys think all the houses are too expensive, so we'll lower all house prices a little bit further for you", have the prices for FC housing changed? Or do they even now start at the same price as they did back then? Because if they do, it doesn't really change the statement that much in my opinion. One, the personal housing prices are not separate from FC housing. And two, they're priced the same as the FC houses they'd just released and are therefore not "far more affordable".

Sure, the average amount of money per character is higher today than back then, so due to the average wealth they could be seen as more affordable. But I'm not sure that takes into consideration that many players, who knew personal housing was on the way, had been hoarding their money with the intent of buying one. So of course the average wealth goes up when people try to save money. But all of that is an entirely different discussion which doesn't really belong in this thread.

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Originally Posted by polyphonica

With this particular conversation, there already was a misunderstanding caused by one prominent summary being confused over a detail, and implying that the new cash shop mounts/minions would be available in-game. He didn't actually say that, just that they would continue to introduce in-game minions.

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Thank you. People have said that, "it's an official statement!" and that it should be enough. But the truth is that it's an inofficial person's recounting of an official statement, with all the problems inherent in that. Also, I'm not sure whether the statement was issued in English or Japanese. The recounting is in English, and if the statement was in Japanese, there's the translating problem and finding the correct words that imply the same as the original wording. Even if it was in English, it's not always easy to catch what's being said since people don't always stick to coherent and logical/grammatically correct sentences while speaking. Plus the poster does comment that they think that's what Yoshida said, which further muddles the "validity" of the statement.

The way you interpreted it is how I interpreted it as well. And until I see an official statement posted regarding it, I won't be able to feel certain about what was meant with it (and to be fair, depending on how fuzzily it's worded or translated, I might not even be certain then).

Please no cash shop. That would ruin the spirit of the game.

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Originally Posted by polyphonica

The problem is that the lack of specifics get easily misinterpreted, and the translation doesn't help.

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Then its his responsibility to get a better translator, both for written statements and verbal presentations if needed.

And it needs to be done at the time of the JP statement and not a week or two later.

At the rate he keeps looking like a double talking car salesman, he's going to have no one trusting him at all by the end of the year.

At this point I've already lost trust in him and SE due to several things they've done, and not just housing and cash shop. The old "Oh, well I said <this> but what I meant was <something else entirely>", BS has got to stop.

So, did he make his comments about "vanity only" in English... or is that just more double talk that will later be dismissed as "a misunderstanding" when it turns out to be false?

Honestly, I don't blame him. He's not a one man show, and he answers to plenty of other people. He probably isn't any happier about having to go back on what he says that players are about it... but it's all about money, and he will do what the higher ups tell him to do... just ask Tanaka.

i wish it would open up already bwahaaaaa

IDGAF i just want a fantasia

Just got back for 2.4. There will be a cash shop? Meh.... i like that you can craft Vanity and minion stuff. I hope there will be no exclusive Vanity stuff (should be able to craft ingame). I hope the shop won't be succesful and will be scrammed. Well if there will be P2W stuff, LOL. I'm disappointed, after all these years, that they put up a cash shop. I guess they don't see the game to be a sucess and hope to milk the players. ~.~

I want a fantasia, hope the store will open a bit before the server opens

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Originally Posted by Teirshin

Then its his responsibility to get a better translator, both for written statements and verbal presentations if needed.

And it needs to be done at the time of the JP statement and not a week or two later.

At the rate he keeps looking like a double talking car salesman, he's going to have no one trusting him at all by the end of the year.

At this point I've already lost trust in him and SE due to several things they've done, and not just housing and cash shop. The old "Oh, well I said <this> but what I meant was <something else entirely>", BS has got to stop.

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In regards to the last statement by Yoshi-P regarding minions still being added through ingame updates, it's pretty apparent that it was meant that minions from now on would not suddenly become cash shop only in general. Rather than cash shop items also being obtainable ingame.

It is not so much a translation issue here, but merely players interpreting statements as they desire to interpret them. Something commonly seen with statements from native English speaking developers as well. Another translator is going to change nothing in that.

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

Hopefully when Golden Saucer shows up in FFXIV, it can be similar in spirit to the original but not just the exact location from FFVII dropped into FFXIV without rhyme or reason.

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don't worry, it would not be the exact same location

http://goingsony.com/system/file_upl...al/1AeV9Zj.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/9H4c30W.jpg

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Originally Posted by Fornix

Another translator is going to change nothing in that.

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If SE hires a translator just for him for public statements, then player "interpretation" is removed from the excuse list.

I find it hard to see how mega corporations can make and sign deals between Japan and other countries, getting through the legal minefield on top of the language difference for contracts, and yet Yoshi cant seem to get his statements about a game translated into plain english for the US side of his playerbase.

Hire him a translator with a clue (aka knows when to ask for clarification BEFORE saying something), and put them to work. It'd be money well spent so they dont have to keep making 'clarifying" statements.

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Originally Posted by Fornix

In regards to the last statement by Yoshi-P regarding minions still being added through ingame updates, it's pretty apparent that it was meant that minions from now on would not suddenly become cash shop only in general. Rather than cash shop items also being obtainable ingame.

It is not so much a translation issue here, but merely players interpreting statements as they desire to interpret them. Something commonly seen with statements from native English speaking developers as well. Another translator is going to change nothing in that.

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Exactly. North American players are infamous for misinterpreting statements made by developers, no matter in what language said statements were made. That's why MMO developers rarely promise anything, players are quick to begin witch hunts.

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Originally Posted by Teirshin

If SE hires a translator just for him for public statements, then player "interpretation" is removed from the excuse list.

I find it hard to see how mega corporations can make and sign deals between Japan and other countries, getting through the legal minefield on top of the language difference for contracts, and yet Yoshi cant seem to get his statements about a game translated into plain english for the US side of his playerbase.

Hire him a translator with a clue (aka knows when to ask for clarification BEFORE saying something), and put them to work. It'd be money well spent so they dont have to keep making 'clarifying" statements.

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No matter the skill of the the translator, it's pretty much impossible to ask of them to take into account the multiple misinterpretations made by the playerbase. If you look at other NA MMOs, you see plenty of time people saying "You promise this!" or "Why didn't you do what you said before".

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Originally Posted by Teirshin

If SE hires a translator just for him for public statements, then player "interpretation" is removed from the excuse list.

I find it hard to see how mega corporations can make and sign deals between Japan and other countries, getting through the legal minefield on top of the language difference for contracts, and yet Yoshi cant seem to get his statements about a game translated into plain english for the US side of his playerbase.

Hire him a translator with a clue (aka knows when to ask for clarification BEFORE saying something), and put them to work. It'd be money well spent so they dont have to keep making 'clarifying" statements.

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Total nonsense. Frequently enough statements by US developers have also been misinterpreted by gamers. Those are native English speakers. Are they too going to be required to have a "translator" for public statements? The answer is no in my opinion.

But rather people ought to not give statements their own twist.

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

So I'm not quite sure -- other than the gradual devaluation of plots and the extra "you guys think all the houses are too expensive, so we'll lower all house prices a little bit further for you", have the prices for FC housing changed? Or do they even now start at the same price as they did back then? Because if they do, it doesn't really change the statement that much in my opinion. One, the personal housing prices are not separate from FC housing. And two, they're priced the same as the FC houses they'd just released and are therefore not "far more affordable".

Sure, the average amount of money per character is higher today than back then, so due to the average wealth they could be seen as more affordable. But I'm not sure that takes into consideration that many players, who knew personal housing was on the way, had been hoarding their money with the intent of buying one. So of course the average wealth goes up when people try to save money. But all of that is an entirely different discussion which doesn't really belong in this thread.

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Well, yeah. The problem is that this issue is so much more complicated than what any simple statement can convey. The first issue with the whole thing is about the vision for housing; the developers envision it as a long-term goal that people should work towards, rather than as a given. (This may be partially impacted by the fact that it's so costly to them to add housing capacity.) But, besides that, If you consider all the factors in composite (supply, affordability, inflation, reverse auction), the main underlying issue is: "there are more people richer than me than there are available plots". This is compounded by the fact that all servers get the same amount of lots even though the amount of players is different, and the only variable is price. So anyway, yeah, it's complicated, and beyond what we can discuss in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

The way you interpreted it is how I interpreted it as well. And until I see an official statement posted regarding it, I won't be able to feel certain about what was meant with it (and to be fair, depending on how fuzzily it's worded or translated, I might not even be certain then).

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In the other thread I posted a clarification of the sentence, but yeah. Koji's translation made perfect sense in context of the whole rest of the discussion, but if you take it as a sound bite in isolation, it can be made to imply something other than what was intended. I agree with the subsequent conversation here that this isn't a question of "get a better translator," particularly given that this was a live event. But there will always be a bit of this adversarial nature on the forums and elsewhere, so they have to be careful about vague statements that can be misinterpreted. At the same time, it is exceedingly hard to think of the ways something can be misinterpreted when you're as close to the subject as the developers are. I can even see how, from YoshiP's point of view, his housing statement made sense in the context of what he was thinking of -- affordability, not flat price (which depends completely on the inflation index at the time of release, which he didn't even know yet at the time). But players can't read his mind or understand all the factors in his head, so the misunderstanding there was perhaps inevitable.

Well patch notes confirm 'optional' items available for purchase. Optional my ARSE. Content cut to milk for extra cash. My sub had just renewed but I'm cancelling the automatic renewal. I'll be watching closely and see how it develops until time is due to renew, but I can guess how it's going to pan out already so expect to be moving onto another game and quit FFXIV. Which sucks because I really like this game, but I will not be mugged off into paying for 'optional' content

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Originally Posted by KillyBamp

Well patch notes confirm 'optional' items available for purchase.... I will not be mugged off into paying for 'optional' content

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I don't understand what you are saying here. Did you confuse yourself? AFAIK there is NO optional content being offered in Ca$h $hop, only OPTIONAL ITEMS...

If you don't want them, then don't buy them. OMG...don't even go tot he store. Are they pushing the shop down your throat? No, they announced it and that is all. Your cancelling your sub is doing nothing. They will be in no way affected by your decision.

People need to stop throwing a tantrum over this and play or leave, that simple...well once the servers are fixed ^.^

wow, and just when we thought that the senseless deluge of posting had finally stopped.

Please, read ALL of the comments before you start adding to this. We have most likely already discussed your issue ad nauseum, and in countless other ways.

Literally, we have gone over it the better part of two hundred times.

I think I can live with the cash shop just fine so long as it remains Mog station based, no real in-game integration as such, and that items in it are limited to fantasia, name changes, server changes, past seasonal items and items that can be obtained in-game (either through the market board or current/near future content.)

Basically, the Sleipnir mount for 2.4 cash shop is fine by me so long as it's available in-game, hopefully in an Odin trial, by patch 2.5.

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Originally Posted by Synestr

I don't understand what you are saying here. Did you confuse yourself? AFAIK there is NO optional content being offered in Ca$h $hop, only OPTIONAL ITEMS...

If you don't want them, then don't buy them. OMG...don't even go tot he store. Are they pushing the shop down your throat? No, they announced it and that is all. Your cancelling your sub is doing nothing. They will be in no way affected by your decision.

People need to stop throwing a tantrum over this and play or leave, that simple...well once the servers are fixed ^.^

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Actually people need to keep complaining and cancelling subs until SE fixes this mess. There is no reason people should be paying subs and for additional content that SE 'chose' to put in the shop instead of the main game.

Make no mistake, the cash shop will not remain optional for long. Many of you don't want to believe it, but the writing is on the wall. Even the behemoth that is currently occupying the throne couldn't withstand the allure of more and more pay to win content added to their shop. They have even gone so far as to nerf XP gains on leveling characters to force players into purchasing character "boosts".

Don't think for a second that XIV is above it, especially with the last few major stumbles they have had. The game isn't as strong as many of you would like to think it is, and those of us who have been gaming for the better part of the last 30 years have seen it over, and over, and over again. This cash shop is the first step towards getting back to profitability, because the sub model won't work with the way they are botching content.

Cash shop is up.

Sleipnir Mount: £13.80 (that's $22?)

Unjustifiable.

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Originally Posted by Mjollnir

Cash shop is up.

Sleipnir Mount: £13.80 (that's $22?)

Unjustifiable.

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And yet, players can't open their wallets fast enough to purchase a pretty picture of a horse.

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Originally Posted by Mjollnir

Cash shop is up.

Sleipnir Mount: £13.80 (that's $22?)

Unjustifiable.

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Just checked, its US $24.

Definitely unjustifiably priced.

the price of TWO MONTHS subscription, for a single mount? that's extortion level prices.