As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

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Originally Posted by Taika

What statement of yours does this make accurate? Or what statement of mine does it make somehow inaccurate? If you actually read my post I was in fact discussing an example group with 2 tanks and 2 healers.

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why do you keep assuming that im saying healers shouldnt dps in there when Im actually not. Im reffering to dps that blame healers for not dpsing enough when its actually the dps not dpsing enough. The innaccuracy is in implying that its too much for a group of 4 dps to acheive or too much to expect of them. Whereas what im actually saying is that sub par dps should not be expecting healers to do 100% when they are doing 80% I will admit if someone dies in the first phase .... Yes it actually happened in a farm group. Healers have to then stop dps.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

why do you keep assuming that im saying healers shouldnt dps in there when Im actually not.

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Throughout this thread your whole main argument has been that healers should not be expected or told to DPS. Have you now changed your mind and agree that healers in fact should DPS in (the first phase of) Zurvan extreme?

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Originally Posted by Feyona

The innaccuracy is in implying that its too much for a group of 4 dps to acheive or too much to expect of them.

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So, going back to the numbers on the previous page, you truly think that it would be alright to expect 3182 DPS from each DD, and at least 2386 DPS from each tank, while expecting nothing at all from the healers?

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Whereas what im actually saying is that sub par dps should not be expecting healers to do 100% when they are doing 80%

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No one here has said it's ok for DDs to expect more contribution from their healers than they're giving themselves, so I don't see how that point is relevant to the discussion, as we can all agree on that for sure. What we disagree on, is that you seem to be arguing it's ok for healers to expect more contribution from DDs than what they're willing to give...

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I think the only person

Even if it were the case that DPS was lacking and the party couldn't skip soar, the sheer refusal to DPS as a healer, given the above statement is not valid in the slightest.

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yes I said it and others have said it to me who have been booted or moaned at for not dpsing enough as a healer and you simply cant dismiss the facts because you may not like what Im saying by implying its only me that says it happens on here. I have never said it any of my 500 or so posts that Ive refused to dps only once when I said that id refuse if I needed to heal.

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Originally Posted by Taika

No one here has said it's ok for DDs to expect more contribution from their healers than they're giving themselves, so I don't see how that point is relevant to the discussion, as we can all agree on that for sure. What we disagree on, is that you seem to be arguing it's ok for healers to expect more contribution from DDs than what they're willing to give...

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No what I actually object to is dps expecting more from healers than what they give themselves and I have never said once in these points that healers or me dont dps its the fact they expect more than is possible for a healer to do at times, and putting the pressure on isnt acceptable when your not doing your own job right. By now Ive seen so many groups fail due to such pressure when healers are actually afraid to not be seen dpsing their asses off for fear of being booted then its going too far. Plus where have I ever stated that I am expecting more from the dps? Ive actually said ,if you read my posts, that I dont mind it being slower or if we skip soar, I know how to do that phase. I actually believe it you that makes assumptions of what Im saying to support your own biased opinion rather than the other way round. By default you cannot expect a healer to dps if they need to heal so I dont think that point is irrelevant anyway

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Originally Posted by Feyona

No what I actually object to is dps expecting more from healers than what they give themselves

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Well, since no one here has said it's ok to expect more from healers than from DDs, I guess you can happily stop participating in your lengthy arguments with thin air then. :)

There isn't really much to discuss about the opening in a Zurvan EX Soar Skip Farm.

If as healers you are pushing 1500+ DPS each @ i270 and still unable to skip Soar then the tanks and dps need to get good. If you get kicked from a group like that consider it a gift.

If each of the healers aren't pushing 1500+ DPS @ i270 then they should get good, or not join a Soar Skip and/or Farm party. (Regardless of whether it would cause a Soar Skip or not, having 50 seconds of healer DPS window should be used as such)

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More of a break down of Zurvan Soar Skip -

Including the drop (~10 seconds where you can't DPS) you have ~75seconds to push Soar @ 75% which requires 14,700 DPS

Most average DPS will push out 2500 DPS including the drop and then the wind up after the drop (15 seconds for putting debuffs, dots etc before Soar)

So that leaves 4,700 DPS for the tanks and healers to take up. Tanks can typically be 1400 - 1800 depending on party comp, so we'll say 1400 for MT and 1800 for OT -> 3200 which leaves 1500 dps for the healers.

From what I've seen each healer can easily push out 1500 DPS because the tank is taking half of the damage the Fairy Pet can heal on it's own (~450 DTPS and the Fairy can heal 900/s not including Rouse)

So say both Healers know how to put their dots on and spam Malefic II/Broil this reduces the DPS requirement to 11,700. (14,700 - 3000 = 11,700)

DPS 2200 X 4 = 8800 DPS
Tanks 1500 DPS = 3000 DPS
Total = 11,800 DPS

Required Healer DPS = 2900 Combined

Which is so incredibly low that to not skip Soar either the DPS and Tanks don't have a pulse or the healers aren't contributing as much as they think.

Also don't take those Healer DPS numbers as gospel. I was doing 1700 DPS as SCH with the Sophia weapon @ like i260 so healers can probably contribute significantly more @ i270 with i270+ weapons etc.

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Single Tank Strat - Average to Skilled Players

DPS 2200 X 5 = 11,000
Tank = 1500
Total 12,500

Required Healer DPS = 2200

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Single Tank Strat with Decent Players @ i270 90%+
DPS = 2650 X 5 = 13,250
Tank = 1800
Total 15,050

Required Healer DPS = 0

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Originally Posted by Taika

Well, since no one here has said it's ok to expect more from healers than from DDs, I guess you can happily stop participating in your lengthy arguments with thin air then. :)

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I think it stems from this "idea" that asking healers to DPS when there's nothing else to do somehow means they're going from 30% to 110% operating capacity.

I have this scenario in my head with all this chit chat about Zurvan

AST casts Combust II and Combust at the start of the fight then nothing else. Party doesn't skip Soar.
AST: "Can't even skip Soar with Healer DPS. Get on my level" /disband

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Originally Posted by Taika

Well, since no one here has said it's ok to expect more from healers than from DDs, I guess you can happily stop participating in your lengthy arguments with thin air then. :)

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Oh yes you may not want too see it but others may want to see others points of view. Another default coming up- here is feedback if you dont like seeing opinions why come here? Takes at least 2 people to argue btw and its me thats not good with numbers.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

So in that case what content or aspects of the game dont I know anything about?

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Pretty much any of the truly challenging content pre nerf I suspect, when was your first Thordan kill? A3S? A4S? A8S? Ever tasted synced SCOB savage? The fact that you desperately cling to your idea that it doesn't matter how fast you kill an encounter smacks of someone with very limited endgame experience or ability. A12S very clearly demonstrates otherwise, much more so than Zurvan, if you've spent a reasonable amount of time progressing in A12S (without buying a carry) and you still don't see the importance of raid wide DPS then you really do need to consider a trip to spec savers ;)

Don't get me wrong, I suspect I dislike having to DPS in raid content far more than you do, but progressing A4S (and I was pretty late to this one) very clearly demonstrated to me that when the time comes, I have to suck it up and deal with it. Logs never got me bullied once, rather they were a tool for me to go to far more skilled players (or their logs ofc!) than myself and simply ask 'how can I improve?'. I never got berated once.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

What is this exclusive knowledge that only you know anything about? Also what do you mean I need a backbone?

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I'm far from the only person who 'gets it', this thread has demonstrated that time and time again. Rather you completely ignore valid points to tunnel vision in on any detail that might be construed as damaging to the delicate little bubble you live in. As I've said, hyper defensive.

And yes indeed, it is just like being set upon by a pack of wolves. Lesson learnt, don't set yourself up preaching on such a high and mighty plinth without some mighty solid foundations underneath you to keep it all steady.

[QUOTE=Sebazy;4110142)





On the contrary its not me that professes to know everything. its you thinking that you know everything and even what others know or dont know apparently. I dont actually give a shit about hard core facts and figures. I just want to enjoy the game and keep reminding you that it is a game not some serious kind of dedicated compulsion to playing it one way like a sort of scientific experiment where everyone has to follow precise formulas. Im enjoying my game with others and thats what I play it for. So while you insist on educating some that want to listen or not. please allow me to have a preference in how I play and stop driving people off the game with your boring facts. Its actually not me thats preaching to others its YOU. And just for the record my first thordan kill was quite a long time ago and i didnt need a parser to 'improve' myself to do it and niether did I need your personal opinion. Plus I wonder how you would fare on here if it wasnt you just following popular opinion like a sheep. I actually dont play the game to be a super hero I just want to enjoy it I dont care if Im top of my game or if ny skill is limited It seems to only be you that is concerned about everyone playing how you think they should, and wether they are top skill or not. Perhaps you think because you know everything that gives you the right to judge other's worth on the game. I m not in a big rush to be the best player on the server , or clear content before anyone else does to brag about it. I enjoy the game meeting each challenge as it comes and I think its fair to allow people to do this. As it may not be your way but its the way others would like to be .

I'm not even going to entertain that incoherent mess. There's another 100 page thread of material to pick apart right there but meh.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

snip

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You really need to learn to seperate your emotional response from the logical discussion on how the game should be played. "How the game should played" is an entirely different subject from "how people should be treated", I thought this thread was about the former, not the latter.

Everyone has their right to play the game how they want and think how they want. But when discussing how the game should be played, the conversation has to be based on facts and logic, numbers and math. If that's not interesting to you, then don't take part in the discussion, especially not by only expressing your emotional charge on what people aren't even discussing about.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

You really need to learn to seperate your emotional response from the logical discussion on how the game should be played. "How the game should played" is an entirely different subject from "how people should be treated", I thought this thread was about the former, not the latter.r

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There it comes sgain not only telling people how they should play but now how they should repsond to others incorrect assumptions and judgements as well. Sorry to disapoint you but you cannot control what I say or do. It wasnt me that deviated this thread into discussions about my performance either and that certainly wasnt backed up by logic or facts. So please tell this to the correct person. And if you read my post you will see that I was discussing how I think the game should be played I just disagree that its always got to be played one way. Quote ' you must be very limited skill level' or ' you never done any current thordan' etc. Where are the facts to back these statements for example? And Mr know it all is telling me that I dont know anthing about the game as well as implying in previous posts that I shouldnt have an opinion about it and even assumes that hes qualified to tell me what level of sensitivity I have so please if you want to correct someone please do it to the right people

Yeah, nevermind. I'm not going to even try and explain what I meant. For the record, your personal experience with content isn't really interesting. The only thing that matters is actual arguments, yours are generally just really weak or beside the point.

For the sake of discussion, I just think it'd be a lot healthier to seperate the topics between what healers should actually do in gameplay, and how to deal with interpersonal relations and various skill levels of different healers. One is a question of mathematics, the other a question of morals. Mixing the two just gets super messy, as I'm sure we've all seen.

The 2 things are sort of linked if you consider how people are treated if they dont play how others are expecting them to. But apart from that I dont really think that people should start making assumptions about my performance when I talk about what I think of healer dps. Just because I dont think it should be forced on healers by groups, as I really think its becoming too pressurising for people. I think so because of what I exprience on the game and seeing healers struggle. Not saying everyyone does but I know I struggle sometimes if I have a co healer frantically dpsing, because they are expected to. Now as for interpersonal relationships, if you start derrogating someone then most people should know by now that your not going to get a favourable response. So why people on here think that derrogating someone's assumed performance is useful to the discussion I have no idea. Really though your not going to find that everyone is interested in all posts

@Feyona
If you don't want to play to the expectations of the other 7 people in the party then don't. At the same time don't complain if you get kicked because the other 7 disagree. If you want to play a set way then find 7 other like-minded individuals who want to play the same as you. Unfortunately that's how MMO's work you go with the majority and adapt to each party.

It's the same when joining a random group in PF I have seen different strats when doing things like A9s. I adapt and follow how the group does it remembering the main elements from the normal strategy.

You call it acting like sheep I call it acting like a team.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

'SNIP'

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From what I read, it's better off just dropping interpersonal stuff in this thread as @Kitfox said.

How you think the game should be played is subjective to others, as they have their own way of playing. This thread was for trying to understand why people expect Healers to DPS for the most part, and also what pros and cons there are to doing such in any setting. I'm probably reiterating myself from somewhere in this thread, but since Gordias Savage everyone's gone on edge about DPS because it became more prominent than it was back in ARR and has still been the same case for Midas and also Alexander due to how the raid meta changed.

We've heard how Yoshida and his crew work on raids: They playtest them and Healer DPS isn't accounted for in raids when they create these; just normal DPS. For the most part, it's extra DPS that Healers can contribute if they find the 'window' for it based on the 5s CD on CS after use and on a high level is used to help push fights faster, especially DPS heavy fights like A11S that require a lot from the whole raid to complete.

On another note, using CS is already improving yourself to play on a higher level than what you are now, but of course it's mainly a choice for the player to make based on their experience and also their understanding of when/where to use it. When it comes to most content, you can easily do it with only having to heal, but it's mainly based on how the DPS do with their damage rotations and Tanks using proper CDs for certain things(and most importantly, people following MECHANICS).

Since it's getting late, I'm going to leave the rest of what I have here:

Cleric Stance
Pros
- Extra Damage output from Healer to make Raid Damage higher
- Some fights reward very high raid damage output with skipping certain mechanics(A11S specifically focuses on that)
- Lower time in dungeons/raids

Cons(WHM)
- MP issues and punished for using Cleric Stance too much due to SoS and Assize being their only MP Regeneration utilities

Cons(SCH)
- Lower healing support from SCH in favor of more DPS due to Eos providing free HoTs, Magic Def +20%, and Healing +20% to raid
- Possible bad Stack management for upcoming Raid Busters that require Sacred Soil/Indomitability/Lustrate in favor of using Energy Drain for MP and damage

Cons(AST)
- Depends on Stance. Diurnal means they have to be extra careful of how they spend their resources even with their MP Regeneration, since they only have one way to regenerate MP through abilities; the other being hidden behind RNG. Nocturnal doesn't really have this issue, but still needs to be wary of resources just like WHM does.

This is just my input, so if it offends or if I make a mistake, I'll try to correct it or discuss.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

So why people on here think that derrogating someone's assumed performance is useful to the discussion I have no idea. Really though your not going to find that everyone is interested in all posts

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I'll do you a TLDR to help make swallowing this a little easier for you <3

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Originally Posted by Delicate little flower with limited end game experience

Raid wide DPS doesn't matter! It's not important how fast you kill stuff!

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Originally Posted by Raiders with experience and researched facts to back it up

You're correct for casual content and raids with echo, but for current pre nerf content it's actually very important that everyone contributes!

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Originally Posted by Delicate little flower with limited end game experience

You don't know me!/Why bully!/#Chewbacca Argument!

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I'll do you a TLDR to help make swallowing this a little easier for you <3

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Its not worth it, from what I have experienced in 50 pages of headaches is that arguing with Feyona is like trying to play chess with a pidgeon, shes far too concerned with her own personal grievances and political biases than logical sense behind mechanics, maths, and social behavior.

(for those who don't understand: http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...Pigeon%20chess)

Well for a start I dont think I disagree that healer dps is more optimal. Yes you could say that I am more concerned about the game experience and enjoyability for not just myself but other people as well. No I dont like undue pressure put on people unnecessarily, and seeing the difficulty almost every day. This is a game, its supposed to be enjoyed in my opinion, pressure is not really what I call enjoyment. Plus whatever you assume about me or my personality, or how I play or what I listen to or not. I for one would like to enjoy the game, without listening to a friend co healer panicing trying to fit in dps, rez people keep poeple alive dodge mechanics and not have to worry about being kicked as well cos we not dpsing enough.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

The 2 things are sort of linked if you consider...

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No, they're not. If the argument is 2+2=4, you can not argue back that the 2 should be a 1 because it feels too much pressure to be a 2. It just doesn't work like that.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

No, they're not. If the argument is 2+2=4, you can not argue back that the 2 should be a 1 because it feels too much pressure to be a 2. It just doesn't work like that.

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Exactly. And I do think it's good to also discuss personal experiences and feelings etc. related to the game here, just don't mix them up with the discussions of optimal play. The problem with trying to discuss with Feyona is that when someone presents her some actual facts backed by numbers she just completely ignores them and starts to talk about feelings and experiences instead.

Whatever you think of my stance, you are the people enforcing this onto others in a sort of dictatorial way, if you want to play chess, go play chess no,one is going to crap on your board, maybe your crapping on mine. Seriously, though if this trend continues of constant daily pressure you will not be seeing me in the game in future and if I feel like it Im betting others feel the same as well, like the statement in an earlier post from someone that says shes glad she didnt get HW if this is how the community is.

If the game experience truly is "constant daily pressure" for you or anyone else, I think it might be the best choice to switch it to something more pleasant and relaxing. My personal experience is that there is not much pressure towards anyone in any content outside Savage, and even that (or at least first two floors) can be run very casually now with Echo and overgearing. I have not witnessed the pressure you're describing, although I don't claim it doesn't exist for some players. But it may not also be nearly as widespread as you imagine (or it would probably be much more visible on these forums too).

Also, please don't accuse anyone you haven't played with about "enforcing" anything to anyone "in a dictatorial way", that's just ridiculous. :)

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Originally Posted by Taika

Also, please don't accuse anyone you haven't played with about "enforcing" anything to anyone "in a dictatorial way", that's just ridiculous. :)

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Exactly this. Theoretical discussion about optimal play doesn't dictate how people play in practice, and how people play in practice doesn't dictate how they treat other people.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

...Im betting others feel the same as well...

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I suggest you let others fend for themselves, otherwise you're just making baseless assumptions about people that might or might not exist, just as you're making assumptions about people pressuring others into things just because they know how to play optimally.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

No, they're not. If the argument is 2+2=4, you can not argue back that the 2 should be a 1 because it feels too much pressure to be a 2. It just doesn't work like that.

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You may think you can separate them but the very concept of separating out one thing from another in anything is in fact an illusion, philosophical or not, scientific or not or even accademic or not . This is the experience of the game. Expection = judgement = sentence = execution. I dont need numbers to state that my experience is real. One way of looking at it you can just talk about numbers if you wish but I get it , it just doesnt change the experience of the game

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Exactly this. Theoretical discussion about optimal play doesn't dictate how people play in practice, and how people play in practice doesn't dictate how they treat other people.


I suggest you let others fend for themselves, otherwise you're just making baseless assumptions about people that might or might not exist, just as you're making assumptions about people pressuring others into things just because they know how to play optimally.

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what you dont get is that Im not talking about one individual or even 2 Im talking of the pressure of the meta and also if you like, the pressure even in this discussion to shut up and do as Im told because its so much 'better' to do it your way. Try to think outside the box of ' this is how its done' If you are the owner of a game (forget about individuals here) that you want people to enjoy, would say ' if you dont like it go play something else' especially as its not the game designers that make the meta. Again I get this trend in your posts to think that anyone not willing to play your way, or cant play your way should be excluded. You are one of the poeple enforcing the meta may some should be forced not to. That can be done by disabling cleric, or making healing requirement higher whatever they do I hope it changes I do apologise it wasnt you I was referring to 'my bad' maybe I shoul be kicked iut the forum for making a mistake.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

...Im talking of the pressure of the meta...

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If you think game design is oppressive, you need to make suggestion about game changes, not argue about meta gameplay or player treatment. Those are seperate issues.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

...its not the game designers that make the meta...

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Game developers make the meta, because they design the rules of the game. Some consequences of design choices might be unintended, but nevertheless it's not something that players make, players only apply math and logic to play efficiently according to the rules presented. There's nothing we can do about the meta because we don't make the changes in game code. Discussion about gameplay and suggestions about game changes are, again, seperate topics and shouldn't be mixed.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Again I get this trend in your posts to think that anyone not willing to play your way, or cant play your way should be excluded.

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This is exactly opposite of what I'm saying. You're free to do whatever you want in the game, but because you're unable to conceptually comprehend the difference between that and theoretical meta, you're not understanding me. The meta doesn't change no matter what you think or do in game. It only changes when game design and abilities change. We can't just lump all things together and apply the same arguments to them.

Meta is theoretical and based on math and game design. Enforcing meta is based on interpersonal relations and moral values. Suggestions about future features or changes are based on the wishes and hopes of players. These are all seperate topics.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

If you think game design is oppressive, you need to make suggestion about game changes, not argue about meta gameplay or player treatment. Those are seperate issues.



This is exactly opposite of what I'm saying. You're free to do whatever you want in the game, but because you're unable to conceptually comprehend the difference between that and theoretical meta, you're not understanding me. The meta doesn't change no matter what you think or do in game. It only changes when game design and abilities change. We can't just lump all things together and apply the same arguments to them

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I already have made suggestion in multipal threads of how it should be changed. The designers dont enforce the meta, the community does and thats why Im saying to the community what I find wrong with it. I amended my post It was not you I was referring to, anything else? Oh yes you cant measure enjoyment or pressure they are feelings, but do matter very much on a game and its popularity. Plus these discussions here were never intended to be just theorhetical ones. There are so many diverse discussions on here from all different perspectives but we are all talking about the same game. And whatever angle you come from, everyone's opinion is valid and I dont dismiss your theories Im talking about the application of it and how it effects the game experience for people. I will say though that even if im not highly siklled on game there is nothing wrong with my brain or ability to understand concepts. Actually there is nothing wrong with theory it the way people use it that matters. Same as theory in accademic subjects there are strict rules of how its applied in order to protect people from those abusing their position. Interesting or not my first thought will be if Im happy or others are happy with it. If you work with others there should always be negotiation of what the other is comfortable with, where some would rather just exclude people not following their 'rules' I dont really think its the way to help everyone to enjoy themselves. How many people do you think these rules exclude? I bet its quite alot , thats also whats wrong with high expectations of people at end game and perhaps why people leave the game. Im not professing to know all facts and figures but Im thinking of leaving the game because of it.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Im talking of the pressure of the meta

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Try to think outside the box

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^Yes, try this. :)
If you feel a certain pressure then maybe you aren't where you should be. You can't ask for changes only to fit with you and your lack of confidence. Especially if other players have no issue at all.
And it's not like there is nothing else to do in the game, eh.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

This is the experience of the game. Expection = judgement = sentence = execution. I dont need numbers to state that my experience is real.

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It's basically how everything works. Of course people have expectations and these expectations bring judgements... I mean... You don't have to be a genius to know how social interactions work. Everything is the same ! You wait something from someone, you don't see what you wanted to see (especially if it was needed and not unrealistic), then of course you say something about it... And of course you do something to change the situation. I don't see the problem there honestly.

I still have the feeling that you can't take any words. I mean, as if you just don't want to hear anything, and asking people to deal with it, even if you don't fit with them. But It's not possible. Trust me, I tried. I was still in a static group a few weeks ago. Half of the team was kinda... Not bad, but not good either. But I waited too long to say something, because I was waiting to see a change. And it never happened. Even if we tried many times to talk about what was wrong, even if our expectations weren't that high, it was only very frustrating at the end.

So, yeah, it's necessary to say something as soon as possible, or you'll end up just wasting their time and yours, and probably being bitter about people (exactly what happened to me). And It's important to know if you are at the right place too. It doesn't matter if you want to do a certain content, and how high is your ego, if you are in constant pressure then you should just do something else or find a group with expectations that you are able to provide. It is that simple.
^exactly why i'm not playing Overwatch in competitive mode for example. I would love to, especially being a part of a team but...

And... Why did we travel back in time? What happened to the other timeline? :/
Oh, at least now I know what a pigeon chess is. Thanks, Lambdafish !

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Originally Posted by Feyona

everyone's opinion is valid and I dont dismiss your theories Im talking about the application of it and how it effects the game experience for people.

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Yeah, right, and this is why we have seen people asking for an easy mode on Dark Souls also. You just can't ask the whole world to lower itself for you, and sometimes you have to accept it.

It reminds this... Somehow...
http://i.imgur.com/syXWpTh.png

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Originally Posted by Feyona

If you work with others there should always be negotiation of what the other is comfortable with, where some would rather just exclude people not following their 'rules' I dont really think its the way to help everyone to enjoy themselves.

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This is why people have to find the right team, or to make their own.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

How many people do you think these rules exclude? I bet its quite alot ,

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What rules ?
Well, I don't know. Would it be fair to force people to crawl when they are able to run? It makes sense that people want to play with other people who share the same point of view/expectations/playstyle/etc. Still don't see why it's a problem.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

thats also whats wrong with high expectations of people at end game and perhaps why people leave the game. Im not professing to know all facts and figures but Im thinking of leaving the game because of it.

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Because you can't make your own team? Do you know that you can play the game without joining a hardcore static group?
We are kinda back on the "it's everything or nothing". It's impossible, Feyona. You can't force people to play with you if you have different opinions on how the things should work. And making negotiations don't work. As I said, I tried, and it was awful and frustrating. Just play with people who look like you : it's that easy.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Whatever you think of my stance, you are the people enforcing this onto others in a sort of dictatorial way, if you want to play chess, go play chess no,one is going to crap on your board, maybe your crapping on mine. Seriously, though if this trend continues of constant daily pressure you will not be seeing me in the game in future and if I feel like it Im betting others feel the same as well, like the statement in an earlier post from someone that says shes glad she didnt get HW if this is how the community is.

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Wow, you really butchered the point of the saying...

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Game developers make the meta, because they design the rules of the game. Some consequences of design choices might be unintended, but nevertheless it's not something that players make, players only apply math and logic to play efficiently according to the rules presented. There's nothing we can do about the meta because we don't make the changes in game code. Discussion about gameplay and suggestions about game changes are, again, seperate topics and shouldn't be mixed.

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You have no idea how much I want to talk about game design and meta shifting within the mechanics, but it is all bogged down by finger pointing and blaming within the community. You are right that meta is designed on a mechanics level, and the community only adopts and wears it. I would love to talk about new mechanics that could be added that would keep healers occupied and close the DPS gaps, because I believe that healer DPS shouldn't be a thing, and that the content should be designed so that the healers are occupied with something else.

The problem with the game mechanics is that if you take healer DPS away, healing becomes a hollow experience. The entire content and job design of healing needs to be designed around being healer centric, and it is in fact designed around DPS (Holy, Miasma, Bio, Stone, Aero, Broil, Gravity, Combust etc.), and healers need new mechanics to replace and shift the healing meta before anything of note will happen. This is NOT the communitys fault Feyona, and all you are doing by pointing fingers is being toxic and accusing players who are just following the game design flow of the game.

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Originally Posted by Wanzer

This is why people have to find the right team, or to make their own.

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Yeah, I don't understand why Feyona refuses to see this is a valid option for people. And in general, that all players are free to play with other players who share their goals and play style.

In our FC, since we have many freshly returned players who haven't done any Savage raiding at all, we for example started a group that runs once a week, starting from Alexander Savage floor 1. We don't have any requirements: people aren't for example expected to know anything at all about the fights beforehand (we learn as we wipe), have any melds, or use food or potions, and we don't discuss anyone's gear, rotations or DPS at all (other than when we should push harder as a team to beat certain phase and how we could do it). We're now on the last boss of A6S and after we beat it we'll be moving on to A9S, trying to get some of Creator cleared before SB. But the point is just to get some casual raiding experience, have a good time laughing at ourselves as we die, and often even managing to kill stuff somehow.

You can play this content however you want. You just need to find the people who share your goals and play style for it. No one is going to stop you.

As far as the healing 'meta' goes, the developers themselves squarely put healer DPS on the map with Gordias Savage progression and it's incredible DPS checks vs mostly rather easy going tank damage. Regardless of what Yoshida's team says. A2S rewarded SCH DPS far too much with previously unthinkable numbers being fairly easy to achieve whilst A4S pre echo flat out required everyone to min max their DPS to their limits, healers included.

Look at it this way, hitting the original Coil turn 1 in ilvl 70 darklight for the first time was eye opening to say the least, you had two bosses smashing two tanks into the ground with non stop massive damage. Even with the popularity of bards and thus having ballad on tap, that was a hefty workout for both healers.

Turn 11 is probably my favourite example of when SE get the healing requirements spot on though. Even though it was just a single boss, it cleaved it's way through two tanks and it took some significant gear upgrades before it was viable to 1 tank 1 heal that.

Healer DPS wasn't anything like the big deal in Coil compared to how it is now. TLDR: A2S put it on the map, A4S made it 'mandatory' for progression raiding.

And whilst the Alex and Midas tiers are significantly easier going on DPS checks, they've both been comparatively easy on the HPS requirements with only A8S really standing out as the exception (and then only really at certain points).

For anyone who joined post Heavensward, if you really want to sink your teeth into some proper old fashioned heal checks, give min ilvl T1 and T11 a try. T1 is a relatively simple test of sheer throughput with some straightforward mechanics on the side. T11 at min ilvl is one of favourite encounters in the game imo and is a challenge for every single role including us healy healers. I can't recommend it enough.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

You have no idea how much I want to talk about game design and meta shifting within the mechanics.

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Let's talk about that, sounds much more interesting than the last 80 pages.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

The problem with the game mechanics is that if you take healer DPS away, healing becomes a hollow experience. The entire content and job design of healing needs to be designed around being healer centric, and it is in fact designed around DPS (Holy, Miasma, Bio, Stone, Aero, Broil, Gravity, Combust etc.), and healers need new mechanics to replace and shift the healing meta before anything of note will happen.

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The game being designed the way it is currently, I don't think healers should be any more healer centric than they currently are. They could possibly slightly lower the burst damage and increase attrition damage but that's probably the most they could do. The problem with focusing too much on healing is that the amount healing needed is always hard capped by incoming damage, and gear progression means the incoming damage decreases over time, making any gear progression for healers fairly meaningless. A friend pointed out that the way this is tackled in other games is that you can drop healers out of the group in favour of more damage when the gear allows it, however, this isn't all that practical in FFXIV when the game forces a 2/2/4 setup for most content. Another reason they can't fully get rid of damage spells is because all classes need to be able to solo certain content. That means we're left with a problem: What should healers do with surplus time and resources that aren't spent on healing?

One option would be to offer other options in group play that outshine personal damage that people use in solo play, creating a new supportive gameplay style.

The actions players are able to use can be roughly divide into: Attacking, Healing, Buffing and Debuffing. Furthermore, buffing and debuffing can be divided into offensive and defensive sides. Defensive buffs play into the damage mitigation and healing side, so it's probably best if we forget about them for now. We're left with offensive buffs and debuffs.

Offensive buffs and debuffs would be the easiest way to build into a more supportive playstyle. To keep the role active, these actions would also need to have a short duration, perhaps a regular GCD length. Examples could be like a castable Life Surge on any party member, or casted Trick Attack on the enemy, perhaps with a 3-5 second duration.

If they wanted to go with a more of a "management" type gameplay, the (de)buffs could be longer but weaker in power. The gameplay would then consist of keeping multiple different buffs and debuffs up in a rotation, similar to DoTs. AST kind of already plays into this, despite the long CD on cards and the RNG, although card management is off the GCD so it doesn't have the opportunity cost of damage spells.

I guess my suggestion for new support style mechanics would be offensive buffs and debuffs on GCD, that directly compete with the opportunity cost of nuking in party scenarios.

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Originally Posted by Wanzer

^Yes, try this. :)

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I dont want to change the world just would like some unnessary pressure taken away by the designers cos I just feel this healer dps is going too far. This is a game and can be changed to make it more enjoyable whereas things in RL cant. I think people may play to get away from that harsh reality of having to perform to what standard others want if you try your best, its still not right. Im glad that you have experienced bad groups. While they are frustrating Im happy to just get a clear, but if you dont get one I guess it sucks yeah but I have to go through several groups before I get one. And its not healer dps at fault . I have made my own teams yes and if anyone messes up people leave. You do need friends I guess. Its not often you get 7 friends online at once , that want to do the same thing. I wasnt the first to use the word rules . I still dont think you totally get what Im saying, but its ok I dont expect everyone to

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

The problem with focusing too much on healing is that the amount healing needed is always hard capped by incoming damage, and gear progression means the incoming damage decreases over time, making any gear progression for healers fairly meaningless.

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Well, it's true that trying to eliminate healer downtime is futile - But the stronger healers are, i.e. the less healing centric they are, the more likely they are to be dropped for another DPS.

If both your healers struggle to get by just healing, gear progression will not allow you to drop either of them until the next expansion. One of them will be able to focus more on DPSing or debuffing as you progress and they will stop struggling, but you won't be able to drop one. That only works if you barely need a second one in the first place and the gear pushes you over the line. We're actually much closer to the latter than the prior case right now, considering how much healers are DPSing even during progression.

So it is rather imperative to actually make healers more healing centric. Naturally, excellent and highly overgeared healers will still have downtime and spare resources and will want to do something with it - that's where offensive buffs come into play, I totally agree. But the first approach is to cut down on downtime and resource surplus. And I personally see Mana management as a good way to do that.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Yeah, I don't understand why Feyona refuses to see this is a valid option for people. And in general, that all players are free to play with other players who share their goals and play style.



You can play this content however you want. You just need to find the people who share your goals and play style for it. No one is going to stop you.

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I just dont understand why you constantly think you know or dont know what I understand or make assumptions about what I do or dont do. Theres only one person here that knows and thats me. So maybe you should address me directlyand ask if I understand instead of assuming to others that I dont

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I just dont understand why you constantly think you know or dont know what I understand or make assumptions about what I do or dont do. Theres only one person here that knows and thats me. So maybe you should address me directlyand ask if I understand instead of assuming to others that I dont

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In countless posts in this thread you are implying that healers cannot currently take part in Savage content without feeling "constant daily pressure". Based on that (what you have wrote, nothing more, nothing less), I have understood that you don't see casual, pressure-free raiding as an option for healers in current environment. Do you think I have misunderstood your point? If so, please explain how. I don't intend to misunderstand you on purpose.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Well, it's true that trying to eliminate healer downtime

So it is rather imperative to actually make healers more healing centric. Naturally, excellent and highly overgeared healers will still have downtime and spare resources and will want to do something with it - that's where offensive buffs come into play, I totally agree. But the first approach is to cut down on downtime and resource surplus. And I personally see Mana management as a good way to do that.

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mana management was introduced in wow. By the start of warlords no one had enough mana to heal through a raid except a holy pala. It was very frustrating. Dont ask for annoying frustrating features because it really was crap to heal. Suggest something more enjoyable not a huge handicap where you have to stand around for half the fight cos you have no mana to do anything at all.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I dont want to change the world just would like some unnessary pressure taken away by the designers cos I just feel this healer dps is going too far.

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It's not going anywhere, you know. You are only taking it in this way by yourself actually. Perhaps because you aren't in a content made for you, I mean, especially if you still feel some pressure after all your time around. Or just not with the right persons.

You don't want to change the world, but you want to change the actual meta, so... The game itself. Then, yeah, you want to change the world somehow. ^^

We could take Dark Souls as example : I have a friend who never beat the tutorial boss from DSIII, she gave up after many tries because it was too stressful and frustrating for her, despite the fact that she really wanted to know the story, its world, and met the characters of it. But she just failed. Does it mean the game itself was badly designed? Or that we should ask for changes? Because real life can be harsh, we have to remove all of the challenge from any games? I don't think so honestly. It's the same for the savage raid in FFXIV. They aren't made for everyone ; and everyone has to accept it.
I mean, it's like PvP in FFXIV. I badly suck at it, and won't get any of the rewards from it, even if I would love them... But eh... I have to deal with it. I'm not that special person who can get everything from everwhere.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

This is a game and can be changed to make it more enjoyable whereas things in RL cant.

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Then stop hitting your head on your wall for nothing. Some contents are made for specific players. I mean, you have the choice. Don't try too hard to be part of something if you can't handle it (because of the pressure, or other expectations). You have to accept it too. Unfortunately, we can't have everything. :/
You can work on it, and accept the actual meta, but you can't ask for changes only because you don't feel very comfortable about it.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I have made my own teams yes and if anyone messes up people leave. You do need friends I guess. Its not often you get 7 friends online at once , that want to do the same thing.

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I wasn't saying you should play via the party finder, but that you should build your own static group with people who share the same expectations/objectives/etc. Trust me, it would fix every issues that you have with the actual game. Give it a try! Even here, on this forum. Just clearly write what you want in your team, i'm sure you'll find people willing to join you.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Im glad that you have experienced bad groups. While they are frustrating Im happy to just get a clear, but if you dont get one I guess it sucks

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I don't know how to take the first part of your sentence. ^^;
And no, we didn't even get a clear. We tried to be really patient and very comprehensive, but it has never worked. Because we didn't have the same goals after all, even if they all joined the group via the same recruitment (so they all knew what we expected from them). So... Yeah. That's also why i'm telling you to find a group with the exact same wishes than you.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I still dont think you totally get what Im saying, but its ok I dont expect everyone to

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Actually, I do. Or at least, I believe. But... Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Yeah, I don't understand why Feyona refuses to see this is a valid option for people. And in general, that all players are free to play with other players who share their goals and play style.

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To be honest... I'm totally lost about this... I mean, the answer of all her problems is so simple. '-'

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Originally Posted by Taika

In countless posts in this thread you are implying that healers cannot currently take part in Savage content without feeling "constant daily pressure". Based on that (what you have wrote, nothing more, nothing less), I have understood that you don't see casual, pressure-free raiding as an option for healers in current environment. Do you think I have misunderstood your point? If so, please explain how. I don't intend to misunderstand you on purpose.

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Read my posts I was talking about zurvan farms and people expecting that healer dps makes them skip soar. Which maybe it helps, but already said if both healers are full on at start and you dont then its not healers to blame. But I was also referring to the fact that I see healers failing to heal properly when under pressure to dps. Some of my friends hate zurvan because of it and because they already got the bird dont want to step foot in there again so it isnt such a big option as your saying.